Other A Metagame Without Weather

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

NO RAIN FOR YOUUUUUUUUUU

Just a few personal questions about the nerf weather teams received this Gen:

• How do you all feel about the removal of perma-weather in exchange for a Sunny Day -esque 5 turn (8 with corresponding stone) effect?
• Just how much do you see weather teams going down in usage because of this change?
• What do you think will happen to dedicated weather sweepers like Dry Skin Toxicroak or Chlorophyll Venusaur?
• What type of playstyle do you believe will fill the void of weather teams, in the event that their usage declines drastically?
• Do you think weather players will try to find ways around these new drawbacks, or do you think they'll just switch playstyles?

Personally, I'm kind of mixed on the removal of perma-weather. Gen V was when I first started playing Pokemon again, and started looking at competitive play. After the traumatic childhood even of my brother's Stallrein rape of my beloved in-game team, I decided I'd try making a hail team, and it was pretty fun. From there, I moved into my home in the sand, which is my favorite of the weathers (#T-TAR4LYFE).

I'm glad to see a shake up in the weather-dominated metagame, but the nerf also hits a playstyle I enjoy. I wish I could have been around to enjoy the days of DPPt and have had more time with my good ole' buddy Glicor, but times are changin'.

Well, what do you think?

 

[Ropeburn]

What a terrible change, now I can't mindlessly spam Hydro Pump on my Choice Specs Keldeo to take out 90% of the metagame. Gamefreak has completely ruined this game for me. I can't believe they've finally shifted the metagame's focus away from 3 specific pokemon (Politoed, Tyranitar, Ninetales) and to more varied teams. What crap.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

What a terrible change, now I can't mindlessly spam Hydro Pump on my Choice Specs Keldeo to take out 90% of the metagame. Gamefreak has completely ruined this game for me. I can't believe they've finally shifted the metagame's focus away from 3 specific pokemon (Politoed, Tyranitar, Ninetales) and to more varied teams. What crap.

I know, right? Now I actually have to be tactical with my inducers... UGH.

One thing I've seen pointed out is the viability of sand with two inducers in Hippowdon and Tyranitar, and the latter's abuse of Mega-Evolution or the Assault Vest.

 

[nikovan]

This'll bring more diversity to the table, hopefully.

Plus, it'll make weather based abilities more fair to deal with. SubVeil Chomp can't stall you forever unless it runs Sandstorm (lol), Venusaur burns one turn switching in and another turn using Growth and it's HP Fire got nerfed and Kingdra has to deal with Azumarril, Ferrothorn and a timer to its sweep, plus Hidden Power nerf.

Carrying weather inducers can be a liability if they don't really complement your team and they don't provided that great of a boost anymore. Not to forget that the turn you switch out to your weather abuser will be a turn lost, and unless you want to carry weather rocks on your weather starters, you are on a tight schedule.

I like this change. It'll diversify weather at the very least. I don't know if it will outright disappear, but it will be hit for sure.

 

[Rickyticq]

I don't know why, but for some reason, the sight of that stupid flippy toad with mediocre stats hopping around with perma-rain last gen like he was the shit just made me want to punch it in the face.

That being said, I can't foresee weather having a complete fallout given that T-Tar remains a pseudo-legend and Ninetales has respectable stats as well with the STAB boost. However, rain will definitely be seen a lot less often as stated earlier, a non perma-rain bringing toad is now just a pokemon with mediocre stats taking up a party slot. Even if Drizzle Politoed does stick around, it'll mostly be running specs sets now as it still has a respectable hydro-pump with sets like that. Dedicated sweepers will probably still remain, but overall, the team strategies will become more hybridized whereas they can still operate outside of weather if necessary but operate optimally with weather present.

I think we can confidently say that Gen 5, the weather generation, is officially over with the advent of Gen 6 which I think we can confidently predict being the Mega-evo generation.

 

[Kriptini]

I'm glad that weather got nerfed. When Dream World abilities were released, Pokemon battling wasn't about making the right predictions or using counters correctly, it was all about winning the weather war. With the changes to perma-weather, hopefully there will be significantly less weather-based teams running around.

There is one particular team that doesn't give a crap about the weather nerf, though, and that's the Hyper Offensive team. Aiming to sweep as quickly as possible, they may very well be capable of doing so in 8 turns, making weather-based Hyper Offensive teams still extremely powerful. (You can always switch your weather starter back in if you need more time, as well). While everybody and their sister won't be using weather now, you can bet that Hyper Offensive weather teams will still be destroying the metagame.

I predict that many former Swift Swim/Chlorophyll users will now elect to run Sticky Web and Adamant/Modest Pokes if they're not building Hyper Offensive Weather. Maybe we'll even see Tailwind used more often thanks to Mega Aerodactyl and the popularity of Talonflame, but that's a stretch. Rain Dish users will likely find different strategies to use entirely.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

There is one particular team that doesn't give a crap about the weather nerf, though, and that's the Hyper Offensive team. Aiming to sweep as quickly as possible, they may very well be capable of doing so in 8 turns, making weather-based Hyper Offensive teams still extremely powerful. (You can always switch your weather starter back in if you need more time, as well). While everybody and their sister won't be using weather now, you can bet that Hyper Offensive weather teams will still be destroying the metagame.

That is a very good point. The weather teams hit hardest by this nerf are those that stall. I also heard somewhere that Swift Swim + Drizzle may be unbanned this Gen. Maybe. Just speculation. That would only help to bolster Hyper-Offensive rain teams.

 

[nikovan]

Hyper Offense Sun lost its best abuser in Venusaur, as it wastes yet another turn to Growth, otherwise it loses too much power.

Hyper Offense Rain has to deal with Azumarill and Ferrothorn, but of which hard wall Kingdra and Jellicent, which hard walls Keldeo. Ferry also takes care of Starmie.

Hyper Offense Sand seems to be the least hurt. Excadrill can put a big dent on Fairies, though it still enjoys that Swords Dance that costs a sandstorm turn and Stoutland's attack went up. Besides, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are both very viable by themselves.

Hyper Offense Hail... Isn't that just Snow Cloak Blizzspam?

 

[KOTR]

I actually think Ninetales got a lot better now that you have more options for handling Stealth Rock.

 

[Mega Moltres]

It seems my thoughts are also the thoughts of the majority, that sand is the only weather not really hurt by the shake up. T-tar with assault vest really is laughably powerful. The special hits he can tank while wearing it are pretty impressive.

To address the nerf to rain, I like it, it takes a lot more skill now than just leading with toed and using keldeo, tentacruel, thundrus, etc.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

I'm honestly kind of disappointed that Hail didn't get anything really in the way of buffs.

As a lot of you guys have said, sand hasn't really been hit much, especially with Tyranitar's even better special bulk with Assault Vest. I'm not saying sand is gonna dominate the metagame or anything, but it may be a bit more viable this Generation than sun or rain.

 

[Kriptini]

Hyper Offense Sun lost its best abuser in Venusaur, as it wastes yet another turn to Growth, otherwise it loses too much power.

Hyper Offense Sand seems to be the least hurt. Excadrill can put a big dent on Fairies, though it still enjoys that Swords Dance that costs a sandstorm turn and Stoutland's attack went up. Besides, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are both very viable by themselves.

Even if a turn is used to set up, that's still 7 turns they get for sweeping, and if they take out 3 Mons on the enemy team, that means half of your opponent's team is down and the only repercussion you suffered was putting Ninetails/T-Tar on your team. (And you could just suicide swap them back in for more weather.)

Ferry also takes care of Starmie.

Ferry also takes

Ferry

?

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't know why people fear Drizzleswim this gen; those teams will be similarly fragile to Gen IV manual rain dance teams. Politoed really isn't much better than lead Damp Rock Rain Dance users (Azelf, Uxie, etc.) in that gen because, while he has the ability to set up rain immediately, he also lacks an effective way to bring in sweepers for free, unlike the leads I mentioned, who had access to moves like Explosion and Memento. Drizzleswim teams are also extremely reliant on weather, which will force them to run Rain Dance in several other places on the team, since switching in Politoed (esp. Damp Rock Poli, aka deadweight galore) when weather expires is a total momentum killer. Not to mention, if Politoed gets trapped by Pursuit or Shadow Tag and you have no other means of setting up weather, you're most likely going to lose.

So yeah, Drizzleswim this gen really just seems like empty hype, IMO.

 

[Kriptini]

I don't know why people fear Drizzleswim this gen; those teams will be similarly fragile to Gen IV manual rain dance teams. Politoed really isn't much better than lead rain dance users (Azelf, Uxie, etc.) in that gen because, while he has the ability to set up rain immediately, he also lacks an effective way to bring in sweepers for free, unlike the leads I mentioned, who had access to moves like Explosion and Memento. Drizzleswim teams are also extremely reliant on weather, which will force them to run Rain Dance in several other places on the team, since switching in Politoed when weather expires is a total momentum killer. Not to mention, if Politoed gets trapped by Pursuit or Shadow Tag and you have no other means of setting up weather, you're most likely going to lose.

So yeah, Drizzleswim this gen really just seems like empty hype, IMO.

Politoed gets Hypnosis and Encore. I don't know what your definition of "bring in sweepers for free" is, but those two moves come pretty close to it for me. Switching in Politoed doesn't kill momentum so much as it stalls it, especially if it's a suicide switch-in, which means you get to bring your sweeper back in for free.

Like I stated earlier, if you can kill 3 of your opponent's Mons within 8 turns of Rain, you're more than likely going to win. With every Mon you slay, there's a less chance of your opponent being able to counter you.

A hilarious derp with mediocre Photoshop skills at that.

That's MSPaint-level ghetto, yo

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

That's MSPaint-level ghetto, yo

I know that feel, bro. I feel ya.

I'm not seeing a ton mentioned about Sun... I feel as though I'm supposed to facilitate discussion or somethin', this being my thread and all...

So... how 'bout that sun? New inducer, I hear...

 

[666lumberjack]

Azumarill isn't a Kingdra counter, it's 2HKOd by Hydro Pump unless it runs Special Defense. Resistances do not a good check make. Ferrothorn was around last gen and that didn't stop DrizzleSwim from dominating. I honestly think people are underestimating Politoed, it might not be so great as an offensive rain setter but it is the best bulky setter in the entire game because it can feasibly never take an attack and still reliably get rain up multiple times throughout the match. The disadvantage of rain before was that when it ran out you got the momentum because they had to bring in a Pokemon and spend a turn using Rain Dance. Now they can just sac something as RD ends, bring Politoed in and immediately go to an abuser before you can get an attack in. You never even have to be vulnerable to trapping because you won't bring toed in on a trapper unless you can beat it one-on-one. 8 turns is also plenty of time to cause havoc, I mean before it was more like 8 turn x however many setters you had because most of them couldn't set rain twice but every time you lose a Pokemon Politoed can come back in for free.

 

[Kriptini]

Azumarill isn't a Kingdra counter, it's 2HKOd by Hydro Pump unless it runs Special Defense.

Azumaril takes damage from Hydro Miss and then retaliates with Play Rough, instagibbing Kingdra. Azumaril is a legitimate counter (just not on the switch-in.)

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Politoed gets Hypnosis and Encore. I don't know what your definition of "bring in sweepers for free" is, but those two moves come pretty close to it for me.

Bringing in sweepers for free is exactly what it sounds like. Using Explosion or Memento allowed things like Kingdra and Ludicolo to come in unhindered and begin firing off attacks. Politoed won't be ballsy enough to do anything this gen beyond switching in and switching out for a couple of reasons: first of all, he doesn't have the ability to take his sweet ol' time anymore (because the counter was reduced), and secondly, he won't have Leftovers due to the near necessity of Damp Rock. This cuts into his overall bulk fairly drastically.

Like I stated earlier, if you can kill 3 of your opponent's Mons within 8 turns of Rain, you're more than likely going to win. With every Mon you slay, there's a less chance of your opponent being able to counter you.

You make it sound so easy! If this is the case, I wonder why Kingdra and Ludicolo didn't do anything at all in Gen IV on a competitive level, even when Surf and Hydro Pump had more base power, and things like Ferrothorn didn't exist. Hmmmm...

 

[CarnivorouSwarm]

I have to say, as a previous SandStall OU player, I'm really annoyed with the nerf. I understand nerfing Drizzle and Drought, as offensive Sun and Rain teams were fucking EVERYWHERE, but hitting Hail and Sand seems like kicking a build while it's down.

Sand had some viability, and I was satisfied with my team, but there are things I straight up can't do with it anymore. I originally had both TTar and Hippowdon on my team, which was great for countering other weather users, but even with both, I can't set up walls like I used to knowing that I have to switch them out in 5-8 turns to get sand back up.

And hail? I can't remember the last time I SAW a hail team that worked well. Really, you have to shit on Snow Warning too? Just seems rough to me.

 

[Kriptini]

Bringing in sweepers for free is exactly what it sounds like. Using Explosion or Memento allowed things like Kingdra and Ludicolo to come in unhindered and begin firing off attacks. Politoed won't be ballsy enough to do anything this gen beyond switching in and switching out for a couple of reasons: first of all, he doesn't have the ability to take his sweet ol' time anymore (because the counter was reduced), and secondly, he won't have Leftovers due to the near necessity of Damp Rock. This cuts into his overall bulk fairly drastically.

But with good prediction, you can just use Hypnosis or Encore to make your switch safe. Worst case scenario, Politoed dies, but if that happens, you still get a free switch. (Basically the same deal as Memento or Explosion.)

 

[Aldrius]

I think it just got balanced honestly. It's not dead so much as it is... manageable. Now you can stall out weather until you can deal with it. Weather inducers are easier to predict, NOT having Ninetales/Politoed/Tyrannitar on your team will no longer mean that you have to deal with a team of incredibly powerful pokemon that outspeed and overpower you.

Same with dragon types. They're still a really solid type with the best stats in the game and not a whole lot of weaknesses or resistances. Now they just... can be stopped. Or have the potential to be stopped making players more wary and more balanced in their team building.

And hail? I can't remember the last time I SAW a hail team that worked well. Really, you have to shit on Snow Warning too? Just seems rough to me.

Well they pretty much had to be consistent I think. (Also Sand was one of the two best weathers last gen... sun was easily the worst of the three.) I wish they'd buffed hail the way they did Sandstorm (either boosting a stat or increasing the power of ice type attacks or something.) But I can also understand why they didn't.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

I think it just got balanced honestly. It's not dead so much as it is... manageable. . . .

Same with dragon types. They're still a really solid type with the best stats in the game and not a whole lot of weaknesses or resistances. Now they just... can be stopped. Or have the potential to be stopped making players more wary and more balanced in their team building.

That's probably the best way of putting it. It's not like weather (or Dragons, albeit a bit off topic) is dead. It's just more counterable.

 

[nikovan]

But with good prediction, you can just use Hypnosis or Encore to make your switch safe. Worst case scenario, Politoed dies, but if that happens, you still get a free switch. (Basically the same deal as Memento or Explosion.)

Depends on whether your weather abuser can tank your opponent's lead.

Uxie
1st turn, set weather. First turn of weather is gone, 7 remain.
2nd turn, Memento. You die, opponent is weak. 6 turns remain.
3rd turn, weather abuser comes in and can attack from the get go. 5 turns remain.

Politoed
1st turn, set weather and switch out. 7 turns remain, but your weather abuser got hit by something, probably.
2nd turn, weather abuser can attack. 6 turns remain.

So, it depends on whether you can bring in your abuser faster or more reliably. You chose.

That's probably the best way of putting it. It's not like weather (or Dragons, albeit a bit off topic) is dead. It's just more counterable.

I see a bunch of Dragons enjoying Fairies' immunity to their STAB, especially those running Draco and Outrage.

Bring in Latios. Opponent is scared and brings out Togekiss to tank suspected Draco.
Draco fails, YET and this is very important, your SpA doesn't drop. Meaning that you can still Psyshock that bitch unless you're scarfed.

Same with non banded Outrages. Switched your Togekiss into my Garchomp's outrage? Well, gee, thanks. You stopped my confusion and unless you outspeed me, I'm hitting you with a Stone Edge to the face.

The only problem is when a Fairy switches into Outrage after you KO'd something. Then you'll be getting hit. All these means is that we have to be more careful with Outrages and Choice locked Dragon attacks.

 

[Kriptini]

Same with non banded Outrages. Switched your Togekiss into my Garchomp's outrage? Well, gee, thanks. You stopped my confusion and unless you outspeed me, I'm hitting you with a Stone Edge to the face.

Doesn't Outrage continue even if the initial hit fails?

 

[nikovan]

Doesn't Outrage continue even if the initial hit fails?

Unless Outrage is different than Thrash this Gen, nope. Making the attack fail will break the chain. Can prove due to switching my Aegislash on a Rhydon's Thrash in Battle Maison. Next turn he was not confused and hit me with Drill Run.

Edit: Just checked to see if Rhyhorn could learn Thrash, and apparently it can only learn Thrash in Gen II, so I have no idea how the hell it used thrash on me. Maybe it became an egg move again this Gen?