Very late, but I'd like to say that this set is absolutely phenomenal. It baits out and subsequently trashes all of Aegislash's would-be checks and counters, literally only leaving specially defensive Hippowdon as the most reliable answer to Aegislash. In my testing, I've found Modest to be the superior nature due to the huge difference in power and not really having the chance to use Automotize; moreover, paring this set with things like Mega Lucario, Garchomp, Talonflame, etc is very effective. Honestly, I think that this is Aegislash's scariest set, as it's much tougher to outright wall (unless you're using Flash Cannon for some weird reason) and capitalizes on misplays better than SD imo.
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Pokémon Aegislash
- Thread starter ArkWelder
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BTW: Rereading some earlier claims of mine in this thread, I'm currently unsure if Shadow Claw has +50% crit chance. I've decided to double-test Shadow Claw within my own game, and my results disprove my earlier claims. Does anyone know how the +Crit system works now?
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How would a bulky spread work out? Something along the lines of
Aegislash@Lefties
Brave/Quiet
252 HP Working out Defense investment atm
~HP Ice
~King's Shield
~Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword
~Iron Head/Sacred Sword
w/o investment both attack stats are 305 in Blade form, which gets a clean 2HKO on Garchomp when rocks are up. Sacred Sword is a guaranteed OHKO on T-tar, who otherwise threatens me with EQ. I'm leaning towards keeping Shadow Claw as the better STAB option b/c Iron head only hits fairies for SE damage and while this is my partner for Kyurem-B I feel overall Sacred Swords is the more worthwhile option.>>
Some help with this set anyone?
How would a bulky spread work out? Something along the lines of
Aegislash@Lefties
Brave/Quiet
252 HP Working out Defense investment atm
~HP Ice
~King's Shield
~Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword
~Iron Head/Sacred Sword
w/o investment both attack stats are 305 in Blade form, which gets a clean 2HKO on Garchomp when rocks are up. Sacred Sword is a guaranteed OHKO on T-tar, who otherwise threatens me with EQ. I'm leaning towards keeping Shadow Claw as the better STAB option b/c Iron head only hits fairies for SE damage and while this is my partner for Kyurem-B I feel overall Sacred Swords is the more worthwhile option.>>
Some help with this set anyone?
Can someone please explain how Aegislash outruns threats after using Autotomize? His base speed didn't exactly jump out to me as a viable speedy sweeper, even though the set looks interesting.
Also, something else that puzzles me is that you're relying only on switching out to be able to get back in shield form. Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a set up move? You use Autotomize, then when you need to get back into shield form, you switch, and you just lost that +2 Speed. On top of that, unless you have a Rapid Spinner/Defogger in your team, you'll be switching into hazards left and right.
Also, something else that puzzles me is that you're relying only on switching out to be able to get back in shield form. Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a set up move? You use Autotomize, then when you need to get back into shield form, you switch, and you just lost that +2 Speed. On top of that, unless you have a Rapid Spinner/Defogger in your team, you'll be switching into hazards left and right.
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You flat out outspeed everything nonscarfed and outspeed upwards of base 95 scarfers, which is all of Aegi's major scarfed checks except Garchomp. You don't set up an autotomize early game for the same reason you don't set up with anything early, you get countered. You either save it for a late game sweeper or use it midgame to nuke stuff with Shadow Ball.
The smart-alec answer to your first question is Sticky Web. In all seriousness, though, the point of Automotize (IMO at least) is to lessen the amount of times Aegislash has to switch out, and give it more offensive utility to its team as an OK cleaner; as user Ultimario explained to me, +2 mixed Aegislash is essentially a watered down Deoxys-N, which is an accurate comparison imo (though, I think that +2 Aegislash is better due to having better STAB and defensive typing). Furthermore, Aegislash outspeeds pretty much every meaningful (unboosted) Pokemon and Mega Evolution at +2, which is more than enough to sweep if the chance arises. The premise of this set is baiting some of Aegislash's more... celebrated checks, such as Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Sableye, Heatran, etc and thrashing them with its very powerful Shadow Ball. If Aegislash nails them with said Shadow Ball, it's done its job and can then be used normally--as a bulky pivot with very good offensive (and unique, for that matter) capabilities--or very aggressively (death fodder). Finally, I don't like the preconception that Aegislash ALWAYS has to abuse Shield Forme for it to be used effectively. Frankly, King's Shield is a very meh move, as the attacks and moves capable of infiltrating it pose almost no risk to the user; i.e, Aegislash will be screwed regardless of what it does. If anything, the additional coverage gained from not using King's Shield not only helps Aegislash break certain defensive threats, but also sweep.
Oh, and Aegislash resists SR and is immune to Toxic Spikes, so I don't see how hazards are THAT much of a problem for it.
I was under the impression it was a 25% crit chance for naturally critty moves?
I meant hazards for your team in general, not specifically Aegislash, but I see both of your points. I will definitely give this set a consideration. What I love the most about it is the coverage it gives. I can't even think of any Pokemon who can safely switch into this set without getting smacked hard by something. The Fighting/Ghost/Ice coverage is amazing, and the special variants can really throw opponents off expecting a physical Aegislash. I know I'm pretty much repeating what has been said, but I like how promising this sounds.
So I'm not sure if this has been stated in any of the previous 11 pages but...
If you are asleep, your move choice will still change form regardless of if you wake up that turn.
Very good to know, as I almost wrecked myself thinking that I would stay in defensive stance if I was asleep.
If you are asleep, your move choice will still change form regardless of if you wake up that turn.
Very good to know, as I almost wrecked myself thinking that I would stay in defensive stance if I was asleep.
Just deleted a couple of posts. Please don't post one liners with no justification or gimmicky sets. The first rule is obvious and there is a thread for discussing more ''unique'' sets here. Take note that shitty RestTalk sets with Toxic and King's Shield shouldn't be posted even in the thread that i mentioned above. Don't post a set unless it is competitively viable. Of 'course you can surprise a few people with Toxic and RestTalk but this doesn't mean it's worth using. A set must have value outside of its surprise factor to be viable.
Also, here are some posts that were deleted but needed a bit of explaining:
2. Aegislash doesn't need to boost six times to get to +6 as a single Swords Dance boosts your Attack by two stages. You only need to use Swords Dance three time to get at +6, and getting at +6 is not necessary anyway for Shadow Sneak to be useful.
3. Life Orb Excadrill, Life Orb Garchomp, and Choice Band Garchomp, offensive Heatran
Also, here are some posts that were deleted but needed a bit of explaining:
Autotomize makes Aegislash a late-game sweeper capable of cleaning up weakened teams. It's function is completely different than this of the common max HP / max Atk sets. Also, Shadow Sneak should only be used when you can OHKO the opposing Pokemon. You OHKO the Pokemon and then return to Shield Stance with King's Shield to protect against the next Pokemon's assault. Shadow Sneak is great because after a couple of boosts is can OHKO a lot of offensive Pokemon without ever needing to take a hit.
I already explained why Autotomize is a viable option so look at the above quote. Shadow Sneak is used to KO a plethora of offensive Pokemon after a couple of boosts and Sacred Sword is not really needed as its common targets are already dealt with Iron Head (Tyranitar) or are set up bait for Aegislash anyway (Ferrothorn). Sacred Sword is ok for dealing with Heatran and Bisharp but the latter is rare and Heatran is faster so you need to hit it on the switch.
1. They were talking about Swords Dance Aegislash
2. Aegislash doesn't need to boost six times to get to +6 as a single Swords Dance boosts your Attack by two stages. You only need to use Swords Dance three time to get at +6, and getting at +6 is not necessary anyway for Shadow Sneak to be useful.
3. Life Orb Excadrill, Life Orb Garchomp, and Choice Band Garchomp, offensive Heatran
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Here's something hilarious: Arcanine can be used to beat Stance Dance Aegislash. Just Extremespeed/Close Combat when you predict that Aegislash will use King's Shield. It will burn his move and you won't affect him, so you don't lose Attack. Then you can Flare Blitz for the kill, since it's unlikely that King's Shield will work twice in a row. Just did this to a guy on WiFi and it was hilarious.
For the record, while im not saying its a counter my Bisharp defeated every single last aegislash it encountered so far in wifi.
my Bisharp set is always faster, always OHKO's with Night Slash and because defiant he is somewhat immune to Kings Shield. Bisharp after a SD always beat Aegislash.
Also Bisharp with Hp investment is never 3HKO'd by a +2 Shadow Sneak. If A Aegislash has sacred sword sucker punch always kills it thus far.
But this is on Wifi so take it with a grain of salt.
my Bisharp set is always faster, always OHKO's with Night Slash and because defiant he is somewhat immune to Kings Shield. Bisharp after a SD always beat Aegislash.
Also Bisharp with Hp investment is never 3HKO'd by a +2 Shadow Sneak. If A Aegislash has sacred sword sucker punch always kills it thus far.
But this is on Wifi so take it with a grain of salt.
Ok, so I know many will disagree with this, but I have found this set to be absolutely amazing:
Shadow Ball | Sacred Sword or Hidden Power [Ice] | Flash Cannon | King's Shield holding a Life Orb.
It might seem odd at first but, it really isn't. Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon are both stronger than their Physical counterparts (Iron Head being Equal however), let's not forget it has 150 Special Attack as well. Sacred Sword is to muscle past the pink blobs, while also doing a ton to Steel types. It is actually a very potent Mixed attacker or just a purely Special Attacker. I see no mention of any of it's Special Options in the OP, so I felt I needed to make this post. It might be inferior in some ways, but really this set has been working far better than the other sets I have been testing. Just for reference, I've been testing this:
Shadow Claw | Swords Dance | Sacred Sword | King's Shield
This set is very powerful, but is SUPER prone to being revenge killed.
Shadow Sneak | Swords Dance | Sacred Sword | Iron Head
This set worked better than the one before, but Shadow Sneak was very underwhelming unless it was SE or the opponent was hit only neutrally by it.
Flash Cannon | Shadow Ball | Hidden Power [Ice] | Sleep Talk
I found this set to be a very nice Sleep absorber, but being locked into one move with Choice Specs was kind of bad as Steel attacking is... Steel attacking.
I will test more, but I am really loving Shadow Ball | Sacred Sword or Hidden Power [Ice] | Flash Cannon | King's Shield holding a Life Orb.
Shadow Ball | Sacred Sword or Hidden Power [Ice] | Flash Cannon | King's Shield holding a Life Orb.
It might seem odd at first but, it really isn't. Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon are both stronger than their Physical counterparts (Iron Head being Equal however), let's not forget it has 150 Special Attack as well. Sacred Sword is to muscle past the pink blobs, while also doing a ton to Steel types. It is actually a very potent Mixed attacker or just a purely Special Attacker. I see no mention of any of it's Special Options in the OP, so I felt I needed to make this post. It might be inferior in some ways, but really this set has been working far better than the other sets I have been testing. Just for reference, I've been testing this:
Shadow Claw | Swords Dance | Sacred Sword | King's Shield
This set is very powerful, but is SUPER prone to being revenge killed.
Shadow Sneak | Swords Dance | Sacred Sword | Iron Head
This set worked better than the one before, but Shadow Sneak was very underwhelming unless it was SE or the opponent was hit only neutrally by it.
Flash Cannon | Shadow Ball | Hidden Power [Ice] | Sleep Talk
I found this set to be a very nice Sleep absorber, but being locked into one move with Choice Specs was kind of bad as Steel attacking is... Steel attacking.
I will test more, but I am really loving Shadow Ball | Sacred Sword or Hidden Power [Ice] | Flash Cannon | King's Shield holding a Life Orb.
Flash Cannon is unnecessary. Same BP as Shadow Ball and only really helps against specific Fairy types.
King's Shield / Sacred Sword / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Ice is probably gonna be this things best set for going mixed.
What nature?
Quiet, like Agonist said, as long as it doesn't need at least a neutral nature in Spe to out pace anything significant.
Quick mention: neutral speed Tyranitar outspeeds Aegislash by two speed points assuming both run no speed investment.
For this reason, I think that Aegislash needs to run about 12 to 16 spe evs with Adamant nature since so you get the Sacred Sword / Iron Head jump on Assault Vest Tyrantiar, because there is no reason why you shouldn't at least outrun that. What does running Brave over Adamant accomplish anyway? Aegi is never going to be using any of it's special moves if its the standard SD set. It's all physical moves too (for the standard set), so you should go with Adamant and this minimal 12 speed investment to ensure the best Aegi possible.
Also, Aegislash deserves the usage and hype it's getting because it can slow down offensive teams quite easily, especially Gengar / Alakazam / Lucario, which are pretty popular. Greninja is kinda meh imo too; can't even OHKO Scizor with Hydro Pump, and Deo-N can run Superpower and lure it right from the start too. I will say it has a rather nice speed tier though.
For this reason, I think that Aegislash needs to run about 12 to 16 spe evs with Adamant nature since so you get the Sacred Sword / Iron Head jump on Assault Vest Tyrantiar, because there is no reason why you shouldn't at least outrun that. What does running Brave over Adamant accomplish anyway? Aegi is never going to be using any of it's special moves if its the standard SD set. It's all physical moves too (for the standard set), so you should go with Adamant and this minimal 12 speed investment to ensure the best Aegi possible.
Also, Aegislash deserves the usage and hype it's getting because it can slow down offensive teams quite easily, especially Gengar / Alakazam / Lucario, which are pretty popular. Greninja is kinda meh imo too; can't even OHKO Scizor with Hydro Pump, and Deo-N can run Superpower and lure it right from the start too. I will say it has a rather nice speed tier though.
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I've covered the Shadow Sneak / Sacred Sword set, and it is walled like no tomorrow by just about EVERYTHING in OU. Assuming 252 Atk EVs, here are some basic damage calculations (from way back earlier in this thread)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3489876/page-3#post-4901057
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3489876/page-3#post-4901057
Shadow Claw is a better option, but has pitiful staying-power due to Aegislash's low speed. Significantly better sets have been proposed throughout this thread. Without 3 attacks, Aegislash is simply going to be walled by somebody, Swords Dance be damned.
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Right, but you also forget that the point of Stance Dance Aegislash is not to reach +2, but +6. Of course, you counter with "no intelligent opponent will let Aegislash get to +6," to which everyone else responds, "that's why you use him for cleaning when his counters are dead," to which you don't respond, and instead wait for someone else to post something about the Stance Dance set and then the circle repeats.
Just stop pretending like your opinion is the "end-all be-all" opinion on Aegislash. Your points are valid, but you're not a king.
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I'm going to agree and disagree with this.
The point of Stance Dance isn't to reach +6, even if you use him when his counters are dead, it won't always be that difficult to lower him down, and saying the whole point of him to reach +6 is incorrect. If you can reach +6 once his counters are gone, go for it, but it should never be required that he needs to reach plus 6. Instead his role is to act like a pivot, taking hits easily, then hitting things that switch in to try and stop him. Once they're gone (which won't be long if they're switching in on shadow claws), Aegislash can set up with ease and easily finish teams off. Also, shadow sneak is too underpowered, and should not be relied upon as his main attack, shadow claw should be there instead. The saddest thing I regularly see since gen 6 started is people bring Aegislash in early on, and trying to set up right away, leaving them easily countered, then trying to shadow sneak even though it does pitiful damage.
I will agree that the stance dance Aegislash is not bad if played well, has good staying power thanks to Kings Shield form changes, can run 2 attacks perfectly fine, and isn't walled by mostly "everything" (as long as he has shadow claw) and the other sets aren't "significantly better", just on par that each serve different roles (such as defeating counters easier, but with less staying power and sweeping potential). I will also agree that Dragontamer needs to stop acting like what he believes is the only way, because it is far from it.
They're close enough. Basically the only thing you forfeit by running Shadow Sneak over Shadow Claw is a chance to OHKO walls instead of 2HKOing them, and in return you're getting a priority attack that will slaughter any non-wall after Stealth Rock damage.
Here's calculations for walls:
Scenario: +6 Adamant Aegislash (no boosting item) vs. Defensive Skarmoy
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 181-214 (55.35 - 65.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Claw vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 316-373 (96.63 - 114.06%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
Conclusion: Shadow Claw has a high potential to OHKO, but should that fail, it is no better than Shadow Sneak.
Scenario: +6 Adamant Aegislash (no boosting item) vs. Defensive Gliscor
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 198-234 (56.25 - 66.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Claw vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 345-406 (98.01 - 115.34%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Conclusion: Should Shadow Claw fail to OHKO, it takes the same amount of time as Shadow Sneak, BUT I would advise Shadow Claw against Gliscor because it can kill you with Earthquake if it catches you in Sword form unlike Skarmory.
Here's calculations for random bulky threats:
Scenario: +6 Adamant Aegislash (no boosting item) vs. Offensive Heatran
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 304-358 (94.11 - 110.83%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 531-625 (164.39 - 193.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Conclusion: If you're running Stealth Rocks or Spikes, always go for Shadow Sneak. Otherwise, go for Shadow Claw.
Scenario: +6 Adamant Aegislash (no boosting item) vs. Choice Scarf Garchomp
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 333-393 (93.01 - 109.77%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 582-685 (162.56 - 191.34%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Conclusion: Again, if you're running Stealth Rocks or Spikes, go for Shadow Sneak. Otherwise, Shadow Claw. (Though this matchup will likely never happen as if your opponent's Garchomp is alive, you probably aren't going to be able to hit +6 yet and you should use Aegislash as a pivot until Garchomp is down.)
Scenario: +6 Adamant Aegislash (no boosting item) vs. Choice Scarf Kyurem-B
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 318-375 (81.32 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 555-654 (141.94 - 167.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Conclusion: With Stealth Rocks, Shadow Sneak is better. Otherwise, Shadow Claw.
The issue with SD aegislash is that everything in the game with 252 HP investment and more than base 60 speed checks him, even at +6. Shadow sneak can't kill shit, even fairly physically frail stuff like Goodra. You can even get to +6 against good teams, but you're going to be at like 20% when you do and some random Pokemon is going to take shit for damage from Aegi and then deal the last blow. +6 Aegi can't OHKO stuff with Shadow Sneak that mixed Aegi can 2HKO with Shadow Ball -> Shadow Sneak, which is all considering, pretty sad.
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Except there are two problems with this, if you don't OHKO with shadow sneak, you WILL die with your shitty defences, while if shadow claw, yeah, you'll take damage, but you also have 150/150 base defences, meaning you can take it and KO in return.
You're also not thinking about using him before you get chance to set up (and only being useful once you're at +6 once your counters are gome makes you a pretty shitty pokemon). If you run shadow sneak, and the opponent has a Lando-T, you can't do ANYTHING until he's taken out. If you SD and he switches out, you'll either switch out or do 52.51 - 62.56% but be KO'd in return. If you do predict the switch, you'll be doing 22.93 - 27.82% with shadow sneak, then you'll switch out. However, if you run Shadow Claw, when he switches in, he'll take a good 40.67 - 48.01%, at which point you can switch out. What that means is if you had and still have rocks up, when you next bring in Aegislash (which isn't difficult with his great defences), if he tries to switch back in and you shadow claw, he'll be KO'd.
He's just ONE example, there are others.
That's why you run shadow claw, because it makes it a hell of a lot easier to get rid of your counters in a match, and makes your function as a pivot before you set up far more useful. You can never, ever, just rely on getting to +6 to be good, that's a disaster waiting to happen.
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