-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokémon Lucario
- Thread starter Subject 18
- Start date
- Status
Normal Luke = Extremespeed
Mega Luke = Bullet Punch
Mega Luke = Bullet Punch
The choice isn't that clear cut for Mega Lucario. They have exactly the same power, and Bullet Punch beats Mega Gengar while Extremespeed beats Talonflame, so it's a heavily team-dependent choice.
Extremespeed can be useful to hit Choice Scarf Keldeo, Heatran and Volcarona. Anyway, +2 Bullet Punch is better because is boosted by Adaptability and OHKOes Gengar and Terrakion.
I've been having trouble with the pokemon that bullet punch can't cover, but I'm wary of giving up the method of dealing with Mega Gengar right now since my team doesn't have much in that department.
Serious question here, since I haven't used Lucario since gen IV: what should I be looking to switch into in order to get that SD off?
I've been playing around with it and I either force a switch, get the SD off and proceed to sweep or wildly mispredict and lose Lucario immediately.
Serious question here, since I haven't used Lucario since gen IV: what should I be looking to switch into in order to get that SD off?
I've been playing around with it and I either force a switch, get the SD off and proceed to sweep or wildly mispredict and lose Lucario immediately.
Small nitpick, but Adaptability Bullet Punch and Extremespeed have the same strength.
The difference between these moves is coverage; coverage is necessary because their power without a Life Orb is rather underwhelming. Bullet Punch allows you to pick on Scarf-Terrakion, Mega-Gengar with little effort but what utility does Extremespeed have? You have a solid answer to offensive Starmie who can outspeed and OHKO Lucario with Hydro Pump. It is not a good answer to Scarf-Keldeo, which takes quite a bit of grind-work in order to wear it down enough for Extremespeed to KO it and at this stage you probably will have figured its set out anyway. Lucario does not need coverage in order to KO offensive Volcarona (Choice-Volcarona is bonkers in Singles due the mere existence of Stealth Rocks) and there is no way you get past a Scarf-Heatran expect with something like Agility a Scarf on the regular one. Talonflame is a valid target but only the Adamant LO Brave Bird is enough to OHKO Lucario. If it has taken SR and one LO damage beforehand, it can be knocked down with Bullet Punch.
The difference between these moves is coverage; coverage is necessary because their power without a Life Orb is rather underwhelming. Bullet Punch allows you to pick on Scarf-Terrakion, Mega-Gengar with little effort but what utility does Extremespeed have? You have a solid answer to offensive Starmie who can outspeed and OHKO Lucario with Hydro Pump. It is not a good answer to Scarf-Keldeo, which takes quite a bit of grind-work in order to wear it down enough for Extremespeed to KO it and at this stage you probably will have figured its set out anyway. Lucario does not need coverage in order to KO offensive Volcarona (Choice-Volcarona is bonkers in Singles due the mere existence of Stealth Rocks) and there is no way you get past a Scarf-Heatran expect with something like Agility a Scarf on the regular one. Talonflame is a valid target but only the Adamant LO Brave Bird is enough to OHKO Lucario. If it has taken SR and one LO damage beforehand, it can be knocked down with Bullet Punch.
Here's the scary thing. If you have a SD off, most of the time Scenario plays like this
Player 2 sent Aegislash
Player 1 used swords dance
Player 2 King's Shield
Player 1 Swords dance
At this point here are the calcs
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 167-197 (51.54 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So my opinion would be simply to find an Aegislash counter. Garchomp is a great one
It depends on what your team needs. I understand LO Lucario ExSpeed are stronger but it's necessary to run on regular Lucario if Talonflames, Starmies, Scarf Keldeo are a problem.
This individual has summed it up correctly.
You could technically run both. BUT MegaLucario kills heatrands and Volcarona regardless. If Terrakion isnt scarfed, it looses to CloseC. If a gengar switches in onto you, you are faster EVEN if it megaevolves.
You should post your team and we can see what to workout.
As for when, it really depends, whats why it's useful to have an encore on your team. For example,
4 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 28 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 228-270 (43.18 - 51.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After an Encore, this allows you to switch in and get a boost from Justified and a SD off.
Let's run calcs on that
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 432-510 (113.38 - 133.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 378-445 (93.56 - 110.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
v+3 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 366-432 (103.97 - 122.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Again, posting your team would help
Just on the Talonflame note,
If Talonflame was adamant, then a CC would be the better choice as you outspeed Talonflame.
However, what I've been running into is Jolly Flying gem Tflame.
252 Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 219-258 (77.65 - 91.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sadly what this calc didnt take into account is the boost from Flying Gem
With Adaptability would a mixed set be a better fit? He could easily be one of the best wall breakers this gen.
Lucario@Lucarionite
Justified
Naive
~CC
~Flash Cannon (faries?)
~Vaccum Wave
~Work Up
252 Spe 252 SpA 4 HP
I only say Justified because you might be able to catch a dark type move on the switch if you switch from your spin blocker.
Just throwing out ideas, but might be interesting.
EDIT: Ah blow me, I thought Adaptability was that one ability that gave the pokemon a boost on the switch.
Lucario@Lucarionite
Justified
Naive
~CC
~Flash Cannon (faries?)
~Vaccum Wave
~Work Up
252 Spe 252 SpA 4 HP
I only say Justified because you might be able to catch a dark type move on the switch if you switch from your spin blocker.
Just throwing out ideas, but might be interesting.
EDIT: Ah blow me, I thought Adaptability was that one ability that gave the pokemon a boost on the switch.
Given Fairies have better special bulk than physical bulk, a physical Steel move would be better against them: this is one of the main reasons why people run Bullet Punch on Lucario. Vacuum Wave also offers fairly redundant coverage with Close Combat, and there are fewer notable threats that are threatened more from Vacuum Wave than Bullet Punch anyway.
Why?
Here's how the scenario should play out 100% of the time:
Player 1 Lucario attacks Aegislash but fails to OHKO
Player 2 Uses Sacred Sword to OHKO Lucario.
OR
Player 1 Switches into a Fighting Resist.
Player 2 Uses Sacred Sword on something that doesn't matter.
Why play King's Shield games when you can go for the kill? Why play Swords Dance games when the opponent is about to kill you? Player 1 either needs to switch out, or pray that Aegislash forgot to run Sacred Sword or something.
+2 Mega-Lucario is scary, Player 2 cannot afford to play games.
You may outspeed Talonflame, but Gale Wing gives it a priority on Brave Bird. So unless you come up with a priority yourself, it will go first.
Also, we did not consider the Flying Gem because it is not legally obtainable, as far as we know. A Flying Gem Acrobatics would be a clean OHKO, but if you manage to ping the Flying Gem beforehands, you can survive one hit - as long as your defense is not -1 or lower.
Has anyone considered a shuffling set? You could switch Lucario in on a resist, roar, then abuse copycat for as long as you can to rack up hazard damage, then mega evolve and clean up on something fragile with bullet punch or vacuum wave. With speed not being an issue on an all-priority set, you could use a Brave mixed attacking set, or just stick with Adamant so you can kill things like TTar and Ferry with CC.
Probably just a pipe dream, but he has the power to rip up things that try to derail with taunt. Played right he could be really, really annoying.
Probably just a pipe dream, but he has the power to rip up things that try to derail with taunt. Played right he could be really, really annoying.
Question: how does Mega Lucario compare to Mega Mawile? At a glance, they look like they work exactly the same - deal massive damage as fast as possible but still surviving a hit or two, helped up by priority moves and perhaps swords dance. But I've been hearing say M-Lucario should be practically uber, but not M-Mawile. So what's the difference?
Is it because of its sweeping ability? Being able to OHKO a lot without retribution thanks to its speed, while Mega Mawile is great on a 1v1 but easy to whittle down with more?
Is it because of its sweeping ability? Being able to OHKO a lot without retribution thanks to its speed, while Mega Mawile is great on a 1v1 but easy to whittle down with more?
To get Ice Punch you need to transfer it from HG/SS, because it is a tutor move, not egg move (I tried breeding it in).
112 base speed makes a massive difference. Even if hindered with Sticky-Web... Mega Lucario is faster than Mega Mawile. 50 Base speed is a major hindrance on Mega Mawile.
Mega Mawile on the other hand, boasts 125 Defense... and her speed is so low that it is liberating. (Mawile can afford to fully invest 252 EVs into HP). If played as a revenge-killer, Mawile Intimidates and transforms on the same turn, further increasing Mawile's bulk. Lucario is a straight up glass cannon who will be in trouble if any opponent survives his extremely powerful hits. One defensive feat Mawile can brag about is that 252 HP Mega Mawile survives Mega-Garchomp's -1 Earthquake. And of course, Mawile OHKOs Mega-Garchomp with non-boosted Play Rough. (Lets see Lucario give out... or take that kind of punishment)
Mega Lucario on the other hand, prefers to not even take that kind of punishment to begin with. With 112 base speed and great priority options, he outspeeds the majority of the metagame.. He comes in late in the game after opponent's revenge killers are taken out (or weakened), and when the opponent's walls are at lower health with some Stealth Rocks support. At which point, 112 base speed outspeeds damn near everyone... and he can then single-handedly lock in a win... especially if people start running some sort of Mixed-set.
But if "unleashed" too early, Mega Lucario, even at +2, will be walled by Aegislash (Without EQ at least). Without Ice Punch (Non-Pokebank metagame), Physical Mega Lucario is walled by Gliscor (anyone have calcs for Flash Cannon or Dark Pulse? OR whatever the heck Lucario's Sp. Atk of choice is?). Reuniclus survives +2 Crunch and OHKOs with Psychic. Starmie barely survives +2 Extremespeed, outspeeds every other attack and OHKOs with Psychic.
Mega Mawile on the other hand, boasts 125 Defense... and her speed is so low that it is liberating. (Mawile can afford to fully invest 252 EVs into HP). If played as a revenge-killer, Mawile Intimidates and transforms on the same turn, further increasing Mawile's bulk. Lucario is a straight up glass cannon who will be in trouble if any opponent survives his extremely powerful hits. One defensive feat Mawile can brag about is that 252 HP Mega Mawile survives Mega-Garchomp's -1 Earthquake. And of course, Mawile OHKOs Mega-Garchomp with non-boosted Play Rough. (Lets see Lucario give out... or take that kind of punishment)
Mega Lucario on the other hand, prefers to not even take that kind of punishment to begin with. With 112 base speed and great priority options, he outspeeds the majority of the metagame.. He comes in late in the game after opponent's revenge killers are taken out (or weakened), and when the opponent's walls are at lower health with some Stealth Rocks support. At which point, 112 base speed outspeeds damn near everyone... and he can then single-handedly lock in a win... especially if people start running some sort of Mixed-set.
But if "unleashed" too early, Mega Lucario, even at +2, will be walled by Aegislash (Without EQ at least). Without Ice Punch (Non-Pokebank metagame), Physical Mega Lucario is walled by Gliscor (anyone have calcs for Flash Cannon or Dark Pulse? OR whatever the heck Lucario's Sp. Atk of choice is?). Reuniclus survives +2 Crunch and OHKOs with Psychic. Starmie barely survives +2 Extremespeed, outspeeds every other attack and OHKOs with Psychic.
Last edited:
I do hope that you plan on going into depth with this. Saying "Period" doesn't justify the end of a conversation.
He/She meant generally speaking after the Pokebank comes out.
Yes, you are correct. We are in agreement
They fill different roles. Lucario's speed allows it to Kill threats that M-Maw would usually get hurt by. Not to mention it has access to two huge priority moves Bullet Punch and ExSpeed.
IT really depends on what your team needs. If you wanted to post a list I'm sure we can evaluate it
So do you prefer Lucario to have SD/CC/IceP/EQ and no Priority? because I would agree that this set is legible
There is nothing to go in depth to, I spelled it out for you in two sentences.
But if you believe near-Focus Miss accuracy is something a Pokemon as frail as Lucario will enjoy using instead of reliably being able to connect meaningful hits to those threats, then fine by me, I won't judge you. :)
I understand where your concern is but I'd like to point out that those reliable moves are not killing anyone or the coverage on them is not to great.
Lando/Gliscors/Dnites get hit by Ice Punch
Jellicents/Reuniclus/Gengar get hit by Crunch
However,
Iron Tail Ohkos after a SD most these pokemon (with the exception of Jellicent). I personally would rather take the 75% chance of killing these pokemons rather than either sacing my lucario or letting another switch and take some heft damage.
Have you even tested Iron Tail Luke?
I'm not advocating Iron Tail as I haven't tested it, but I just wanted to demonstrate how utterly flawed this train of thought is ("period."). If Gengar never learnt Focus Blast then it would not have been anywhere near as powerful and consistently OU as it has been. When Gengar uses Focus Blast is understands that 30% of the time it's going to miss and Gengar is probably going to get OHK'd by the thing it's trying to Focus Blast, but the game isn't anywhere near this simple. A lot of the time Focus Blast is going to let you get past something you otherwise had no business getting past, which is huge when the enemy team probably only had that one thing preventing their team from getting swept by Gengar. Additionally the game isn't 1v1 and you often are trying to hit something that is switching in, which if you predicted correctly means even if you miss you aren't dying for it. No-one is saying that if Gliscor is in on you with full HP that you aren't allowed to swap out and have to Iron Tail, you choose when the risk is worth the reward.
If Iron Tail let's a frail pokemon like Lucario get past things it has no business getting past then it is entirely possible that it's worth playing. It might even just be worth playing by some people so that, like Gengar, many get used to him having it and play 'fearing the Focus Blast'. Then you don't even need to run Iron Tail anymore as it's doing something for you just by existing. To make a grand statement like "frail pokemon can't afford non-100% accurate moves" is to ignore 99% of how battling works.
What you just said is best summed up as a petty risk vs reward argument using an example which isn't even comparable to this situation here. Focus Blast being a major, (yet not perfectly reliable) coverage move for Gengar has very little to do with a Pokemon that has a fundamentally different role and is known for severe 4mss.
____
Yes, M-Lucario has the option to use this relatively powerful secondary STAB "coverage" move for what exactly, beyond being a strong option to possibly OHKO Jellicent alongside the other targets?
Do note that none of those Pokemon (Landorus/Gliscor/Jellicent) can safely switch into a boosted M-luke if it runs a combination of CC/Crunch without being 2HKO'd/OHKO'd, so I'm struggling to see the merit beyond a chance of taking out Jellicent with secondary STAB when I could just use Crunch for an even higher chance of an OHKO along with forcing them to revenge kill/cripple me AND cover other threats mentioned in the thread. With this in mind, any paranoia about the moves accuracy won't even matter.
Besides, In a situation where they can be sent out to dispatch it after something dies, do you think any of those Pokemon are going to be comfortable in the face of a boosted Lucario without catching wind of what kind of coverage it's running first?
Let's recap those calcs posted by Takion again:
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 326-384 (85.56 - 100.78%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 303-357 (75 - 88.36%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Tail vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 294-346 (83.52 - 98.29%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
What do these all have in common? None of them are guaranteed OHKOs after SR damage and to top it off you're using a 75 acc move with a fairy significant chance of missing entirely anyway. The risk involved here--at least in my eyes--is almost certainly not worth the "reward"...
If someone else wants to chime in, is fine by me. I'm personally not interested in testing Iron Tail for coverage on Lucario.
Fortunately, that quote wasn't made anywhere by me. Also, statistical hyperbole is disgusting.
Last edited:
In the end it comes to your risk tolerance. I'm a fairly aggressive player and need to be aggressive with my Pokemon. If you don't feel the need to test it then, cheers. We won't get anywhere with this.
It's important to note that every team on average will have a wall to Lucario. Having IceP/Crunch/BulletP lets it stop one of its walls...but not all of them. I rather take the risk of hitting and killing a majority of these walls and continuing the sweep.
That's just how I play, it's brought me lots of success. I respect your play style, its just a lot different than mine.
It's important to note that every team on average will have a wall to Lucario. Having IceP/Crunch/BulletP lets it stop one of its walls...but not all of them. I rather take the risk of hitting and killing a majority of these walls and continuing the sweep.
That's just how I play, it's brought me lots of success. I respect your play style, its just a lot different than mine.
Why are we forgetting about Mega Lucario's base 140 Sp. Attack?
If we want a high-powered pokemon that blasts through walls and common counters to Lucario, why not Nasty Plot Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse / Close Combat? Run Lucario like Mix-Infernape of old, except with higher speed, higher attack, better resists, better Sp. Attack, and Adaptability.
Flash Cannon for STAB, Dark Pulse for Coverage, Close Combat for all else.
I mean, who the heck walls that sucker?
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 466-550 (132.38 - 156.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 422-498 (117.87 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash: 260-306 (80.24 - 94.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 632-744 (89.77 - 105.68%)
Looks like some Atk EVs are needed to OHKO Chansey with Close Combat, but its easily within range.
If we want a high-powered pokemon that blasts through walls and common counters to Lucario, why not Nasty Plot Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse / Close Combat? Run Lucario like Mix-Infernape of old, except with higher speed, higher attack, better resists, better Sp. Attack, and Adaptability.
Flash Cannon for STAB, Dark Pulse for Coverage, Close Combat for all else.
I mean, who the heck walls that sucker?
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 466-550 (132.38 - 156.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 422-498 (117.87 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash: 260-306 (80.24 - 94.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 632-744 (89.77 - 105.68%)
Looks like some Atk EVs are needed to OHKO Chansey with Close Combat, but its easily within range.
Last edited:
- Status