Dragonite learns Agility right? I can see that being used instead of DD, as +3 (S)atk is a bit much and +1 speed can be outsped easily by scarfers and such
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokémon Dragonite
- Thread starter Kietharr
- Start date
- Status
What you're saying is exactly why WP Dragonite is bad, not why it's good. Multiscale was never hard to break, it's the fact that you have to break it that makes it good. Last generation everyone made sure to set up SR or hit it on a switch in or U-turn out, or worst case just hit it with anything while sacrificing a pokemon, then they would revenge kill it with Ice attack/Dragon attack/Rock attack. People were already doing this and Multiscale is a good ability because it makes people do this. Furthermore Dragonites weaknesses means he often dies right through Multiscale because Dragons and Rock moves normally come off STAB or very high attack pokemons, and Ice is a quad weakness. I specifically even stated that the best thing about Weakness Policy is that you don't even have to use it to be "using it". If people are playing around weakness policy then it makes it a BAD item to run, not a good one.
Additionally many people are looking at Weakness Policy in the completely wrong way, Dragonite is the opposite of the type of pokemon you want to use it on. Dragonite is a pokemon with very few weaknesses, and the weaknesses it has it takes enormous damage from (for reasons listed in above paragraph). This is the type of pokemon that either walls their team or gets destroyed because Stone Edge didn't miss/you got suprised by Ice Beam/Scarfed Dragon Outrages you/etc. Weakness Policy is designed for a pokemon with common weaknesses that aren't very strong moves which they often survive just fine. A bulky water is a great example because they often get hit by unstab tbolts/voltswitches and live them (many take only ~55% from unstab tbolts, meaning even if it crits they live and WP activates). Typing wise Electric/Flying is another great example of something that often does get hit by super effective attacks but lives them all the time. The reason Zapdos isn't necessarily a great WP user is because most of the time it is some form of Sub-Stall and so it needs leftovers, but for demonstration purposes Zapdos's typing is a fantastic example of the type of pokemon you want Weakness Policy on.
Back on Dragonite I am really disliking DD lately as you just don't have the coverage you used to. I am enjoying DragonMove/FirePunch/Thunderpunch/Earthquake more than any DD set atm.
I see Azumarill/Togekiss often enough that I hate not having Thunderpunch.
I see Ferrothorn/Scizor/Forretress often enough that I hate not having Fire Punch.
I see Heatran/Klefki/Mawile often enough that I hate not having EQ
With a bulky Dragonite, it is nearly impossible to KO outside of a SE attack. One reason Multiscale was good last Gen. Was because it allowed for a free Dragon Dance on almost all attacks expect for STAB Ice-moves and Choiced Dragon Attacks. Dragonite needed his Speed up to be a major threat to a team. It outspeeds almost all threats at +1 and can take an Outrage from Choice Scarf Salamence or Draco Meteors. One other thing is that Ice-types are not too great, and any Rock-type or Dragon-type can be killed my Dragon STAB as well.Dragon lives those unSTAB Ice Beams and I wouldn't call Rock-type attacks common (Earthquake FTW!). Dragonite has amazing coverage and Multiscale lets it survive almost any hit, which is why I think WP is great for a boost and a Dragon Dance. Dragonite can just proceed to wreck the opposing Pokemon which STAB or coverage.
Just went to random battles with this set, it's pure gold:
Dragonite @ Soft Sand (I had no lefties)
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature (+SpD / -SpA)
Wrap
Toxic
Roost
Earthquake
It's so good it's almost unbelievable. It's won me three games all by itself, tanking Moonblasts from Florges. It's so much fun to use!
Dragonite @ Soft Sand (I had no lefties)
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature (+SpD / -SpA)
Wrap
Toxic
Roost
Earthquake
It's so good it's almost unbelievable. It's won me three games all by itself, tanking Moonblasts from Florges. It's so much fun to use!
I give up trying to explain to people that good players do not break Multiscale with a Super-Effective attack, at least nowhere near enough on average, to warrant Weakness Policy as your main item. The turn an SE attack hits Dragonite is the turn it dies. Best thing about Weakness Policy is that its mere existence is doing something for you, and Lum Berry/Leftovers/Life orb are better items to actually run.
Last edited:
I know what you're trying to say. Breaking Multiscale with some neutral move. That's why Roost is there, and Dragon Dance is there. If you have Roost, then that could force people to use a super-effective attack which won't kill the majority of the time with Multiscale, or gain more boosts. Weakness Policy is for Pokemon with enough defenses to take a SE attack and gain something from that tanked hit.
I guess Leftovers or Lum Berry is the superior item for a Dragon Dance set like the one I made a while ago. If you have Roost and you are concerned a bit less about sweeping.
I guess Leftovers or Lum Berry is the superior item for a Dragon Dance set like the one I made a while ago. If you have Roost and you are concerned a bit less about sweeping.
Last edited:
Good luck trying to hit with a neutral move while Dragonite DD's the hell out...
Remember, Dragonite is meant to come in unscratched and mostly against something that CAN'T hurt it. So the opponent has to switch out while it uses DD. If you try to use a neutral attack, if could possibly go and DD once more. Now you have a very fast and strong poke in your hands with most of it's health intact.
Hit him with a SE attack (which sometimes it lives through even without multiscale, especially if you give it some bulk... and let's remember, the best way for many pokes to hit Dragonite for SE got nerfed this gen. I'm looking at you, Hidden Power) and you're doomed.
Let's remember Dragonite IS bulky after all, even with no Multiscale.
Lastly, it's weaknesses are very expoitable. Rock attacks are mainly physical, Ice almost always comes from Hidden Power or Ice Beam from water pokes (and you should get the hell out whenever a Ice poke comes in unless it's slower/frail and doesn't have Ice Shard), and Dragon attacks are only used by dragons (really, is there anything that uses Outrage/Dragon Claw or Dragon Pulse without being Dragon typed?). We'll see how fairy will go.
Status still hurts it though, and there's always the possibility of being KO'ed even through Multiscale, the opponent outsmarting you, the opponent having Avalugg (really, this thing is VERY bulky...), or whatever. It's no perfect strategy.
I gues Weakness Policy isn't the best or the worst item to use on it; you use whatever fits your needs.
Remember, Dragonite is meant to come in unscratched and mostly against something that CAN'T hurt it. So the opponent has to switch out while it uses DD. If you try to use a neutral attack, if could possibly go and DD once more. Now you have a very fast and strong poke in your hands with most of it's health intact.
Hit him with a SE attack (which sometimes it lives through even without multiscale, especially if you give it some bulk... and let's remember, the best way for many pokes to hit Dragonite for SE got nerfed this gen. I'm looking at you, Hidden Power) and you're doomed.
Let's remember Dragonite IS bulky after all, even with no Multiscale.
Lastly, it's weaknesses are very expoitable. Rock attacks are mainly physical, Ice almost always comes from Hidden Power or Ice Beam from water pokes (and you should get the hell out whenever a Ice poke comes in unless it's slower/frail and doesn't have Ice Shard), and Dragon attacks are only used by dragons (really, is there anything that uses Outrage/Dragon Claw or Dragon Pulse without being Dragon typed?). We'll see how fairy will go.
Status still hurts it though, and there's always the possibility of being KO'ed even through Multiscale, the opponent outsmarting you, the opponent having Avalugg (really, this thing is VERY bulky...), or whatever. It's no perfect strategy.
I gues Weakness Policy isn't the best or the worst item to use on it; you use whatever fits your needs.
I saw a cool set that Mukubird was running against Shofu and it seemed to be pretty effective (Aside from the predictions)
Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Fire Blast
-Earthquake
The only thing I need help on is what kind of nature and EVs should I have on Dragonite?
Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Fire Blast
-Earthquake
The only thing I need help on is what kind of nature and EVs should I have on Dragonite?
I think the strategy of breaking multi scale and then finishing with a super effective attack has major flaws if the d nite is running roost. Dragon dance on the neural hit, then presumably out speed and roost BACK to multiscale to take that ice beam.... Plus one speed, plus three attack with two coverage moves. It's all theory at this point, but with roost you almost have to try and take down dragonite with only neural moves, unless we're talking priority.
Looks to me like Azumarill is that set's biggest enemy.
One on one, yes Azumaril would win, but thats why you have 5 other Pokemon on your team! Its true that Azumaril gives Dragonite a hard time without any stat boosts, especially when EQ is your only option against her and its not even his STAB move. I think a +1 or +2 would wind up being a 2HKO on Azumaril.
I'm thinking for the EV Spread a
68 HP/252 Atk/186 Speed
What do you guys think?
Last edited:
Rain dancer Dragonite
Multiscale
damp rock
Modest
-Thunder
-Surf
-Hurricane
-Rain Dance
This is a supporter for a team of pokemon that uses rain, this might be great of hydration goodra
Multiscale
damp rock
Modest
-Thunder
-Surf
-Hurricane
-Rain Dance
This is a supporter for a team of pokemon that uses rain, this might be great of hydration goodra
Weakness Policy is obviously never going to be activated intentionally, but if you're a ballsy player you can predict and switch into a super-effective hit. Dragonite's biggest problem here is, lol, its lack of weaknesses. Ice, dragon, rock, and now fairy. Switches into dragons are really dangerous, same with rock because your only choice is stone edge. Fairy probably won't be a particularly common attacking type, and ice is still 4x. Seems like other mons with agility or rockgility would run it better, perhaps Tyranitar or Rhyperior.
Surgo, that's definitely true, but the mere existence of this item is going to make d nite a beast. if you assume weakness policy, and you end up with the bulky lum berry set, you've just allowed it to set up, then roost back to multi scale, all the while afraid to nail it with a super effective attack.
So I made sure to read the thread before making a post on this since I didn't want to "miss the point" but I think you're slightly off base in saying that Dragonite is the wrong Pokemon for this item full-stop. In singles your point is pretty solid given hazards and all of the variety of ways Multiscale gets jipped but how about...doubles?
Not only is it a deterrent for Rock Slide and Blizzard, but Dragonite possesses the bulk to ensure it gets to play its mind game when it comes out in a doubles match. Dragonite now has the ability to hit +2/+1 Attack & Speed respectively with good prediction if your opponent isn't careful and you're running DD. Dragonite also learns Surf, Rock Slide, and Earthquake so almost any variant of Nite can be something scary to a player who's aware of the mere possibility that it could be holding a WP. I think that this point can be correlated and drawn back to singles in a sense that the strength of WP is that it acts as a deterrent, not an item that you absolutely must get use out of. The fact the opposing player took a turn to hit nite with a move that did superficial damage at best, just to make sure they don't accidentally beef him up to get sweeped. That is enough of a bonus by itself, because that's a turn that Dragonite spent laying out one of the opposing team members or setting up to ensure a OHKO the following turn (if referring to singles), mostly because he has such a massive move pool, that you can't always be 100% sure of what move is coming next.
That's where WP is a great item for Dragonite, it creates a difficult bias in your choices on top of an already difficult question...should I hit him with this super effective move? If I do...is he packing x-punch or x move that will super effective the living crap out of me in return? It's a layer of mind games, really. The logic at its most simple, Multiscale ensures survival of basically any super-effective attack in the meta even without defense or special defense investment, allowing you to reap the benefit of +1 on that very same turn if your opponent is faster. It's the unpredictability of Dragonite that makes him strong, and WP just adds another layer of guessing for your opponent to wiggle through, which can't be a bad thing in a meta that is largely based on good prediction.
Dragonite may not be the best user of WP, but there is a irrefutable synergy between WP and Multiscale mechanically, that's pretty hard to argue, which is why I think people tend seem to disagree with you.
Tried this set (but with lefties), and it is amazing. Once again Dragonite proves to be the most versatile and amazing pokemon ever! Can't wait to for pokebank so I can make my extremespeed set. Until then I'll rotate this set and a WP set (I have 2 perfect dragonites already, if you wonder why, just read my signature)
I've tested a similar set myself, using Substitute and Sky Drop instead of Toxic and Earthquake. I sub on the switch to a counter or wall then Wrap for continual damage while using my other 3 moves to stall out the turns and rack up the most damage. I know using Sky Drop sacrifices a good deal of coverage, but I tried it because it stalls out another turn where the opponent cannot move. I used the same EVs and Leftovers instead of Soft Sand.
It worked fairly well, but it had problems against Pokemon like Talonflame who could deal solid physical damage and had an immunity to Sky Drop. I wonder if there isn't a more efficient set of support and coverage moves that would enable Wrap Dragonite to handle trapping a greater variety of Pokemon. Multiscale and Roost allow for a fair amount of longevity as long as the opponent doesn't have Ice attacks or boosted super effective moves. Without much speed or attack though, Dragonite can end up being setup fodder or end up getting 2HKO'd if the opponent can do more damage with their initial attack than Dragonite can roost off.
Aside from that, you might want to consider that Weaknite is viable in OU for taking baited unSTABbed SE attacks. For example, in a Talonflame-Excadrill standoff, Nite can switch in, take the rock slide and KO or boost up. Although you continue to reiterate that intelligent players won't use SE moves to break Multiscale, in reality, you wouldn't be sending out your Nite for any reason other than to clean up. Thus, Multiscale changes roles from a tanking ability, to an ability that guarantees (in most cases) Nite's survival and subsequent sweep. You being such an intelligent player yourself would know that, if you're carrying a Dragonite on your team, its most likely for late game cleaning. Your arguments are valid, but you alone cannot judge the viability of the Weaknite set.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status