The Fire Type in Little Cup

[(makeup)]

Introduction ​

Hey! There have been tons of brand new features and mechanics Pokemon X and Y have introduced to the competitive scene, like the Fairy type, and XY has brought about more change to competitive Pokemon than we have seen in a very long time. Though, while Fairies are cool and all, XY also updated old aspects of the game, and Fire-type Pokemon and moves got some great buffs in the new generation. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how the new changes to Fire-types will affect them competitively, and by extension how the improved type will impact the metagame.​

The Fairy Type
​

Actually, one of the biggest differences between Fire-types in Gen V and Gen VI are the introduction of Fairy types. Ever since Fairy was introduced, it has been one of the most dominant types in the metagame, and Pokemon like Snubbull (who was retyped to Fairy) and Swirlix have made a strong debut into the new LC metagame and will be prominent threats throughout the tier. Fortunately, Fire-type Pokemon resist Fairy-type moves, which means Fire-type Pokemon with strong potential in previous generations now have a legitimate purpose! Unfortunately, Fire-type moves are not super effective on Fairy-type Pokemon, but you can also rely on bulky Fire Pokemon like Ponyta and Growlithe to take a Dazzling Gleam with authority!

You can read more about the Fairy type here.

Weather
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Another mechanic change in XY was weakening auto-weather abilities such as Sand Stream. Instead of summoning permanent weather, these abilities now summon five-turn weather, although it can be extended with the weather's respective item. This nerf means sand teams will become almost nonexistent, and as a result hail will die down. What does this mean? Morning Sun (and and a few other moves) are now a way more reliable; Fire-types like Ponyta, Larvesta, and Growlithe can now recovery comfortably. This also means Drilbur won't always be around the corner to throw out an Earthquake or Rock Slide.

The biggest blessing Fire-types received was Drought. Although Drought was nerfed along with the other weather abilities, it is now usable in Little Cup and will boost the recovery of Morning Sun, Moonlight, and Synthesis as well as the power of Fire-type moves. Sunlight also neutralizes the Water-type weakness that all Fire-types in have.

Attacks
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The new generation made some subtle changes to a few Fire-type attacks. The biggest one is Will-O-Wisp having its accuracy boosted from 75% to 85%. Old users such as Ponyta are now even more threatening and can burn opponents more reliably. Non-Fire-types benefit from this as well, as Will-O-Wisp has wide distribution throughout LC. Other moves that were buffed are the aforementioned weather-dependent recovery moves. Although these moves were not effectively changed, the metagame has made them more reliable as recovery moves, although they still suffer from low PP unlike Recover and Slack Off.

Pokemon
​

Fire-type Pokemon in general have a few common roles in LC. Firstly, they are great switch ins to Ice-type moves, especially from Sneasel. Another niche of Fire-types is forcing out common threats such as Sneasel, Yanma, Swirlix, Snubbull, and Honedge.

Newcomers
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The only new Fire-type Pokemon introduced in XY are Fennekin and Litleo, which are both pretty bad! Fennekin does have the new Magician ability, which is unique to Fennekin in LC. Magician steals the item of a foe after they are hit by a move, which can help to counter Knock Off, but most users such as Sneasel and Gligar are almost impossible to switch into anyway. Litleo has Moxie, which would be nice if it were a physical attacker. Litleo is hit super effectively by Sneasel's Brick Break, which kind of defeats the purpose of switching into Sneasel. At least Houndour resists both of Sneasel's STABs.

Although Vulpix is not new to XY, it is new to LC. Vulpix is unique in that it can automatically summon sunlight with the ability Drought. Vulpix pairs well with Tangela, who can sweep with Chlorophyll to boost its Speed.

Veterans
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Pontya has always been one of the best Fire-types in LC and arguably one with the most potential. Basically, Ponyta was a great Pokemon in BW2 LC, but the metagame was unfavorable for its intended use. Now that weather has gotten the boot though, Ponyta is back and better than ever! New threats like Sneasel, Tangela, and Yanma call for a Fire-type to keep them and check, and Ponyta is one of the best at it. Its fantastic stats allow it to play many roles, especially a fast status spreader or Life Orb sweeper.

Growlithe, another great Fire-type, can play a similar role to Ponyta. Ponyta has better stats overall, but Growlithe has a few key differences that might make it favorable on certain teams. Intimidate is the biggest one, as it is a great way to stop physical sweepers and much more reliable than Ponyta's Flame Body. Other than Intimidate, Growlithe has access to Close Combat and Crunch, proving superior to Ponyta's physical movepool.

Now that Fighting-types are much less common and Flying-type moves have increased in popularity, Larvesta is much less effective than it once was. It does, however, have STAB U-turn, which gives it a second move to threaten Tangela and Sneasel with.

Speed Boost Torchic is one of the coolest new additions to XY LC. Due to hidden abilities now having a chance to be passed down by males, Speed Boost Torchic and other Dream World Pokemon are now legal at Lv. 5! Torchic is the only Pokemon with Speed Boost and Baton Pass, and it also has access to Swords Dance, making it one of the most threatening Baton Passers in the game. Torchic can colaborate with newly-released Gligar and Meditite to make a strong Baton Pass chain!

Vulpix serves a different role from the aforementioned Fire-types. It has poor offenses, defenses and Speed. So why use it? Drought. Vulpix is the only Pokemon in LC with Drought, and it is a staple on any good sun team. Other than Drought Vulpix is awful. It doesn't even get Pain Split anymore lol

So what are your thoughts on the improved Fire-type in Little Cup? Feel free to post or discuss sets as well!

 

[Swan Songs]

Personally, I see fire types as meh, but definitely better than they previously were. Swirlix usually carries surf which wrecks all of the fire types other than Larvesta, while Gligar is running rampant and always carries EQ. Also the Stealth Rock weakness kinda sucks.

No mention of Torchic in OP? Kinda surprises me speed boost+baton pass can do work.

 

[(makeup)]

oh yeah I originally meant to include Torchic, idk how I forgot about that

How does Larvesta take Surf any better than Ponyta? Ponyta has better special bulk and Growlithe is barely behind Larvesta. I don't think they are amazing checks to Swirlix since, as you said, some carry Surf, but all of the mons I mentioned can take a surf even at +1 and dish out heavy damage.

The thing with Gligar is it absolutely can not switch in in fear of WoW, and once it is burned it is pretty managable by like Tangela or Sneasel

 

[apt-get]

You should add some example sets, I think

something like this?

Ponyta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 76 Def / 76 SDef / 196 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Wild Charge

Growlithe @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 156 Def / 36 SAtk / 196 SDef / 36 Spd
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

Torchic @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 36 SAtk / 36 SDef
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass

 

[Melon]

The only fire type I have ever run on a team is Larvesta in a Volt-Turn team in Gen 5, and it wreaked fighting types and grass types, (And it still does), and now it can also be a switch in on fairies, so I will be sure to try Larvesta again.

I've never used Ponyta or Growlithe, but they both look really solid and have nice movepools. Growlithe with Intimidate can really stop physical attackers in their path, and hit them with a STAB Flare Blitz or a Close Combat, and Ponyta can spread burns around with Will-O-Wisp and Flame Body to the things it needs to. The fact Ponyta hits 19 Speed with max investment and a positive nature means it can outspeed a good portion of the tier and burn them, which can get real annoying for the opponent.

 

[Heysup]

Vulpix can take a surf if you're looking for something to do that.

Torchic is sort of a gimmick / set up bait for certain teams but it's cute and can catch people off guard (ie without set up of their own/ww/roar). If used properly against a team that is (luckily) not prepared for any sort of BP team, then it can still be devastating even though I'd still call it a gimmick.

Growlithe is a pain my ass, pretty useful mon.

 

[Electrolyte]

Ponyta is real great this Gen, especially because its ability fucks Sneasel even if it has to lose its Eviolite in the process, making it an ideal switch in to one of the most threatening Pokemon currently in LC. Ponyta is also speedy, bulky, and powerful, which makes it the premier Fire-type in LC imo. Fire-types also have advantages offensively, as few teams now carry things that resist Fire-type offense, making it a very potent method of sweeping, especially when paired with Sun. Sunny Day Ponyta + Tangela is actually a pretty decent core that I toyed around with a bit and want to try more, as Sun offense is just really terrific.

However, Fire-types definitely still have the same problems as they did last Gen, and those problems were intensified somewhat this generation. Stealth Rock is as common as ever, especially since the release of the powerful Sneasel and Yanma make Stealth Rock a necessity on almost any team. The release of Gligar, a great multipurpose mon that can easily set Stealth Rock for teams, not only makes it hard for Fire-types to switch in and out as much as they need to but also give Fire-types a new thing to watch out for defensively.

All in all, Fire-types are great but the prevalence of Stealth Rock really hinders their usage and viability. I don't know if it's just me but I really dislike using Fire-types with RS support and that causes a whole lot of problems teambuilding-wise. They have a lot of uses though, and every team needs to be able to get past them if they want to be able to win anything on the ladder.

BTW just a note Ponyta and Fire-types in general aren't SUPER solid counters to Tangela. Ponyta / Growlithe are 2HKO'd by Modest Tangela AncientPower, or KO'd by SR + Giga Drain + AncientPower, so they really can't switch in. Or, they'll just get shut down by Sleep Powder. Still, solid checks to coverage lacking Tangela.

 

[Heysup]

@ above post: You should note that SR is slightly less prevalent in non Pokebank due to it being illegal on certain Pokemon.

 

[typon77]

My Ponyta is getting rejected. I have the same moves and ability as the set listed above, but its saying that Morning Sun is incompatible with something. Am I missing some illegality or is this a PS mistake of sorts? I really wanna try it out because it seems really promising in this metagame. Also, more Swirllix protection is always good. I feel like that thing would be broken without the new threats in the metagame.

 

[(makeup)]

typon77 Morning sun is fine, it's just a problem with PS

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'm seeing that Growlithe is a pretty good mon in XY LC. It stands out to me the most. Useful resists, recovery, strong STAB Flare Blitz, Intimidate...

I'm hoping to see Fire types appreciated more this generation. Also, I'm going to edit my thread and add a link to this one since I also mentioned Fire type in one segment.

 

[(makeup)]

apt-get I actually left out any example sets so other users could post them and add to the discussion. Apparently it worked ^_^

I have really been liking Ponyta a lot on stallish/defensive teams, mostly because of Flame Body. While Intimidate is more consistent, Flame Body is amazing this gen where the best Pokemon are physical attackers (Sneasel, Meditite, and Gligar especially). Other than Flame Body, Ponyta gets 19 Speed WoW which is really useful against Meditite.

On another note, I have also been testing Torchic with apt-get, and we both pretty much agree that it is amazing. If Torchic can survive one hit and SD, it becomes extremely dangerous. Meditite is one of the best recipients since it's obviously very powerful already and has decent Speed. Phantump is also cool since it can take Water- and Ground-type moves aimed at Torchic, and it gets to heal as it attacks with Horn Leech, just like Meditite does with Drain Punch. Phantump does have the issue of being weak to Ice Shard though :(

 

[Darkamber8828]

If you're going to pass to a Horn Leech Grass-type, why not use Skiddo? Phantump's 43/48/50 defenses are worse than Skiddo's 66/48/57, and Skiddo reaches the same attack and has better speed. It also gets Brick Break to beat Ferroseed, while Phantump has to use Bulldoze to get through Steels.

 

[Rowan]

You don't understand what charmander said. He said he runs phantump with torchic because they have good synergy, not for torchic to pass boosts to it.

Pretty sure charmander was talking about using phantump to pass boosts to and that it was a good receiver because of their good synergy. Darkamber8828, does actually bring up a valid point about Skiddo, I think I'm going to test it out sometime

 

[(makeup)]

You don't understand what charmander said. He said he runs phantump with torchic because they have good synergy, not for torchic to pass boosts to it.

nah actually Darkamber is right; I'm using Phantump as a BP receiver as well as a defense teammate I guess. The only reason Phantump is better than Skiddo in this case is because it can deal with Honedge, which Meditite cannot do

 

[Darkamber8828]

ran a bunch of calcs

+2 196+ Atk Phantump Phantom Force vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Honedge: 24-30 (109.09 - 136.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ow)
+2 196+ Atk Phantump Bulldoze vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 8-10 (36.36 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Honedge's 196+ Atk Shadow Sneak vs. 16 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Phantump: 12-14 (57.14 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Skiddo: 6-7 (26.08 - 30.43%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
196+ Atk Honedge Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Skiddo: 9-12 (39.13 - 52.17%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

+2 236+ Atk Skiddo Wild Charge vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 11-14 (50 - 63.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Skiddo Payback (100 BP) vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 26-32 (118.18 - 145.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Skiddo Payback (50 BP) vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 10-14 (45.45 - 63.63%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO

Without a boosted Payback or getting hit on the switch, Skiddo vs Berry Juice Honedge dies in two Iron Heads and a Shadow Sneak before Skiddo can beat it in three Wild Charges.

so yeah I concede :|

im gonna run subsneak honedge just to spite you charmander :||

 

[apt-get]

ran a bunch of calcs

+2 196+ Atk Phantump Phantom Force vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Honedge: 24-30 (109.09 - 136.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ow)
+2 196+ Atk Phantump Bulldoze vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 8-10 (36.36 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Honedge's 196+ Atk Shadow Sneak vs. 16 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Phantump: 12-14 (57.14 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Skiddo: 6-7 (26.08 - 30.43%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
196+ Atk Honedge Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Eviolite Skiddo: 9-12 (39.13 - 52.17%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

+2 236+ Atk Skiddo Wild Charge vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 11-14 (50 - 63.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Skiddo Payback (100 BP) vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 26-32 (118.18 - 145.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Skiddo Payback (50 BP) vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 10-14 (45.45 - 63.63%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO

Without a boosted Payback or getting hit on the switch, Skiddo vs Berry Juice Honedge dies in two Iron Heads and a Shadow Sneak before Skiddo can beat it in three Wild Charges.

so yeah I concede :|

im gonna run subsneak honedge just to spite you charmander :||

Who said he uses Phantom Force or Bulldoze? Lol he runs Shadow Claw

 

[Darkamber8828]

WHY DOES IT GET SHADOW CLAW IT IS A TREE

still a OHKO because people don't use eviolite :|

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Ponyta is real great this Gen, especially because its ability fucks Sneasel even if it has to lose its Eviolite in the process, making it an ideal switch in to one of the most threatening Pokemon currently in LC. Ponyta is also speedy, bulky, and powerful, which makes it the premier Fire-type in LC imo. Fire-types also have advantages offensively, as few teams now carry things that resist Fire-type offense, making it a very potent method of sweeping, especially when paired with Sun. Sunny Day Ponyta + Tangela is actually a pretty decent core that I toyed around with a bit and want to try more, as Sun offense is just really terrific.

However, Fire-types definitely still have the same problems as they did last Gen, and those problems were intensified somewhat this generation. Stealth Rock is as common as ever, especially since the release of the powerful Sneasel and Yanma make Stealth Rock a necessity on almost any team. The release of Gligar, a great multipurpose mon that can easily set Stealth Rock for teams, not only makes it hard for Fire-types to switch in and out as much as they need to but also give Fire-types a new thing to watch out for defensively.

All in all, Fire-types are great but the prevalence of Stealth Rock really hinders their usage and viability. I don't know if it's just me but I really dislike using Fire-types with RS support and that causes a whole lot of problems teambuilding-wise. They have a lot of uses though, and every team needs to be able to get past them if they want to be able to win anything on the ladder.

BTW just a note Ponyta and Fire-types in general aren't SUPER solid counters to Tangela. Ponyta / Growlithe are 2HKO'd by Modest Tangela AncientPower, or KO'd by SR + Giga Drain + AncientPower, so they really can't switch in. Or, they'll just get shut down by Sleep Powder. Still, solid checks to coverage lacking Tangela.

Let's not forget Defog's buff and how it is more reliable than Rapid Spin and also has larger distribution (which the vast majority of compatible mons also are invulnerable to Spikes, T-Spikes, and Sticky Web... very significant). Ghosts can't block it like Rapid Spin, and for a status move, not even Magic Bounce prevents it from removing hazards from both sides. I think it's pretty safe to say that with this addition, hazards are now a lot easier to clear for both players and therefore Stealth Rock shouldn't raise anywhere near the amount of concern it did for the viability of Fire types this gen as it did last gen. They also have 6 resistances, including a Fairy resistance. I would say Fire types are defensively better this generation than they have ever been.

 

[kingmidas]

Let's not forget Defog's buff and how it is more reliable than Rapid Spin and also has larger distribution (which the vast majority of compatible mons also are invulnerable to Spikes, T-Spikes, and Sticky Web... very significant). Ghosts can't block it like Rapid Spin, and for a status move, not even Magic Bounce prevents it from removing hazards from both sides. I think it's pretty safe to say that with this addition, hazards are now a lot easier to clear for both players and therefore Stealth Rock shouldn't raise anywhere near the amount of concern it did for the viability of Fire types this gen as it did last gen. They also have 6 resistances, including a Fairy resistance. I would say Fire types are defensively better this generation than they have ever been.

Not to mention the lack of mons that can run taunt effectively throughout the game to prevent hazards from being blown away.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Most mons who can use Defog are fast enough to use the move before Taunt hits them anyway. Nobody really even runs it either; the only Pokemon from BW Little Cup who could be reasonably expected to run Taunt was Misdreavus (it's currently unavailable) and there was a niche set where Mienfoo ran Taunt. Mienfoo has much better sets, and now it can't do anything to Fairy types this generation unless it gives up a moveslot for Poison Jab or U-turns out to something more suitable, which will do minimal damage as Fairy resists Bug and basically gives the Fairy a free turn (Letting Swirlix get that Belly Drum > Berry Juice > Unburden isn't the best idea, yea there's Fake Out/Bullet Punch Meditite but it's not going to attempt to set up while the opponent still has that).

If players are going to start using Taunt to block Defog and keep their hazards in play, it's only going to amplify the "four moveslot syndrome" that many mons already struggle with. I guess it boils down to what the player considers most important for the team. But I don't think Stealth Rock is going to be as big of an issue for Fire types as it was last generation. In addition to the Defog buff that will keep hazards down, most Fire types are reasonably fast and some even have self-healing to go with their useful resistances.

 

[Johny Cid]

Is there any chance Solar Power Charmander can be viable in LC? I'm not quite familiar with LC, but I can't remember another Fire-type that can hit as hard on the special side. While its special move pool is quite disappointing, Fire Blast + Dragon Pulse do grant him amazing coverage.

 

[Rowan]

Is there any chance Solar Power Charmander can be viable in LC? I'm not quite familiar with LC, but I can't remember another Fire-type that can hit as hard on the special side. While its special move pool is quite disappointing, Fire Blast + Dragon Pulse do grant him amazing coverage.

I hadn't thought of this because I forgot you could get hidden abilities from males now.
This does seem like a very interesting concept but you're forced to pair it with Vulpix who basically has the same role, meaning that you're covering a lot less threats. However you could use Vulpix with Heat Rock early game to weaken its and Charmander's checks with Fire Blast so a scarfed Charmander can sweep late game. It'd be interesting to see if this could be pulled off.

 

[apt-get]

GET READY, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, CAUSE IT'S TIME FOR SOME ASSWHOOPING WITH NUMEL.

WHY, YOU ASK, BECAUSE THIS THING GETS SIMPLE. AND NOW, GROWTH. WHICH GIVES IT +2/+2 OFFENSIVE STATS, ALONG WITH A SPEED BOOST FROM FLAME CHARGE AND THE POWER OF EQ. WHAT THIS MEANS IN NON-POKENERD TERMS IS THAT NUMEL WILL WRECK YOUR SHIT BACKWARDS

NUMEL, BEST SWEEPING MACHINE SINCE BELLY DRUM SWIRLIX



but seriously that thing is insanely good

 

[Johny Cid]

I hadn't thought of this because I forgot you could get hidden abilities from males now.
This does seem like a very interesting concept but you're forced to pair it with Vulpix who basically has the same role, meaning that you're covering a lot less threats. However you could use Vulpix with Heat Rock early game to weaken its and Charmander's checks with Fire Blast so a scarfed Charmander can sweep late game. It'd be interesting to see if this could be pulled off.

Yes, they could work like Drillbur and Sandshrew, but I'm not sure they have either the power or the stomach to do that. Is it so unviable for Charmander to set his own Sun late in the game and sweep w/o the Scarf?