Pokémon Greninja

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(Sheepishly going to apologize now if this has already been answered but I read through the thread and didn't see anything specifically answering this.)Okay so I've been lurking here since B2/W2 got released, and I haven't really ever talked much. I played a bit of OU in B2/W2 but only on Pokemon Showdown and I used a Sun team as Venusaur is easily my favorite Poke. So I've been diving more into competitive and have been breeding things actually in game for once. Greninja's Protean ability really interested me and I went out and actually bread a 6IV perfect Hasty Nature Protean Froakie...so many Froakies were hatched in this trial of patience. I then remembered Hidden Power. How important is it that it learns HP Fire, and how would I go about making sure (or at least getting in the right direction) of breeding a Froakie that would learn HP Fire? Thank you all in advance I've been enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and was content with just watching as always but I have no idea what to do here.
 
(Sheepishly going to apologize now if this has already been answered but I read through the thread and didn't see anything specifically answering this.)Okay so I've been lurking here since B2/W2 got released, and I haven't really ever talked much. I played a bit of OU in B2/W2 but only on Pokemon Showdown and I used a Sun team as Venusaur is easily my favorite Poke. So I've been diving more into competitive and have been breeding things actually in game for once. Greninja's Protean ability really interested me and I went out and actually bread a 6IV perfect Hasty Nature Protean Froakie...so many Froakies were hatched in this trial of patience. I then remembered Hidden Power. How important is it that it learns HP Fire, and how would I go about making sure (or at least getting in the right direction) of breeding a Froakie that would learn HP Fire? Thank you all in advance I've been enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and was content with just watching as always but I have no idea what to do here.
The importance of Hidden Power Fire is entirely dependent on the team you're using. If you have trouble getting past Scizor or Ferrothorn, HP fire is for you, however if you struggle with Gyarados, perhaps you'd prefer HP electric. If fighting types are ruining your day, perhaps extrasensory. Bulky waters? Grass knot. Basically pick 3 coverage moves and U-turn or go all out and pick 4 coverage moves that cover your team's weaknesses.
 

chimpact

fire nation
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Talonflame may be able to outspeed greninja, but I'm not sure if they can afford to run a positive speed nature. Brave Bird is going to be their primary attacking move for a variety of reasons so speed is not that big of an issue. Theres not many pokemon in the range of 330-380 (or w.e its max speed is) that i can think of off the top of my head that I would want to flare blitz instead of brave bird. The damage output from changing natures is very relevant, so not having enough speed to outspeed jolly talonflames is not a good argument imo as talonflames will be slower most of the time.

I'm definitely a fan of Greninja's versatility. i'm hoping for a good niche physical set to become good. Power Up Punch / Acro seems pretty good a t first, but its going to be difficult setting that up for minimal reward.
 
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Physical Greninja's advantages aren't enough to outweigh those of special Greninja's. Sure Water Shuriken checks non-max Speed Talonflames, Shadow Sneak can prevent Fighting priority and Rapid Spin, and U-turn is a bit stronger with investment; however Water Shuriken is far too weak against everything else (and doesn't stop faster Talonflames), it is far better to threaten the attacker directly (which Greninja most certainly can with its wide special coverage) rather than trying to block them, and it doesn't really matter if U-turn is stronger than Greninja or not since it uses the move to land chip damage before switching out to a more appropriate response (it's not using the move like Scizor), meaning even special Greninja makes use of U-turn well. Physical Greninja's movepool isn't bad but it isn't impressive either, the only true merit being Acrobatics (which means no LO); special Greninja has Water, Dark, Psychic, Grass, and Ice coverage, coupled with HP Fire (IMO the best HP for Greninja which allows it to dispose the likes of Ferrothorn, Forretress and Scizor easily).

The Assault Vest argument is rendered moot when most of its users (Tyranitar, Heatran, Goodra) are not beaten by physical Greninja any better.
I agree with a lot of your post, I was just telling him that Physical Greninja isn't terrible and it can be used.

And actually he takes over half HP on those Assault Vest users you mentioned with only two moves. I don't know why you even mentioned Goodra for your argument tbh as specially attacking Greninja wouldn't really do any damage.

252 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 221-265 (54.7 - 65.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 260-307 (67.53 - 79.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 165-196 (45.32 - 53.84%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO

Bonus:
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def MegaAlakazam: 198-234 (78.88 - 93.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def MegaGengar: 166-198 (63.6 - 75.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I suppose people might run max speed Greninjas to speed-tie with other max speed Greninjas.
I honestly think this should be avoided at all costs, since theres no guarantee that you'll win the speed tie. Also, here's some damage calcs for 96 Atk, 168 SpAtk Greninja.

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Anybody consider lead Physical Greninja.

Greninja @ ITEM (Assault Vest/Leftovers/Life Orb) Not sure here.
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP
Jolly (+Speed, -Special Attack)

Spikes
Water Shuriken
Shadow Sneak
U-Turn

It hits every rapid spinner for at least neutral damage, also can protect it's own Spikes. 2 Priority moves makes it easy to keep damage off to an extent. Also pairs well with a Volt Switch partner perhaps Galvantula. May sound dumb but could almost be a dual lead team.
Yup. I did that except I had Toxic Spikes and Night Slash instead of Spikes and Shadow Sneak. It works suprisingly well. Replacing Night Slash with Shadow Sneak might be a good idea on my part.
 
I honestly think this should be avoided at all costs, since theres no guarantee that you'll win the speed tie. Also, here's some damage calcs for 96 Atk, 168 SpAtk Greninja.

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Did you remember to calc in the protean stab boost?
 
So I have a question for you guys, do you think a Torrent Greninja could be useful. I only ask because I hatched a shiny one but it got what seems to be the less useful ability.
 
Sub/Torrent sets are viable but not really good because of issues with priority, the only Starter who can make use of the Normal Starter Ability to great effect is Feraligatr and possibly empoleon

and Protean is so damn good that it completely outclasses Torrent


EDIT: with Sticky web defiant has a use
 
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So I have a question for you guys, do you think a Torrent Greninja could be useful. I only ask because I hatched a shiny one but it got what seems to be the less useful ability.
Think of it this way:
Torrent is a +1 boost to your water type moves when under 33% HP
Protean is a +1 boost to all 3 of your non-water type moves, all the time.

So no not really useful, I wouldn't use anything other than protean in competitive battling.
possibly empoleon
I think Empoleon is more of because he basically doesn't have a choice lol.
 
hey, would it be dumb to have a belly drum azumarill on the same team with a protean frogadier? im wondering if having a water and a water/dark type on a team be a dumb idea?
 
hey, would it be dumb to have a belly drum azumarill on the same team with a protean frogadier? im wondering if having a water and a water/dark type on a team be a dumb idea?
in my opinion, because of Protean, I really wouldn't conscider Greninja "water/Dark" type. It gets STAB on all 4 moves, and kinda can change type as well. Just be sure there isn't too much overlap in terms of coverage IMO. (Maybe drop Hydropump from Greninja for something else?)
 
So I have a question for you guys, do you think a Torrent Greninja could be useful. I only ask because I hatched a shiny one but it got what seems to be the less useful ability.
That's rough buddy. Well, cool that you got a shiny one of course, but it would have been more awesome if you got one with Protean (and good Nature for good measure). Torrent has never been a great ability because it's hard to make use of it. But you enjoy that shiny froggy regardless. I'm sure you can make a shiny Protean Greninja on the simulator sometime.

Of course, Greninja is not necessarily a bad Pokemon without Protean. Just look at them stats (the attacking ones and the speed, ignore the defense). The movepool is pretty solid too. You could definitely salvage something usable out of the shiny frog you have.
 
That's rough buddy. Well, cool that you got a shiny one of course, but it would have been more awesome if you got one with Protean (and good Nature for good measure). Torrent has never been a great ability because it's hard to make use of it. But you enjoy that shiny froggy regardless. I'm sure you can make a shiny Protean Greninja on the simulator sometime.

Of course, Greninja is not necessarily a bad Pokemon without Protean. Just look at them stats (the attacking ones and the speed, ignore the defense). The movepool is pretty solid too. You could definitely salvage something usable out of the shiny frog you have.
Two words: Casual battles. :D

Seems to be where most shinies end up, due to the random number gods hating us all.
 
I prefer a special set to a physical for Greninja. I've been testing a lot and he cleans up well with this:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse

(Water shuriken for when he can't outspeed and just needs to finish something off)
the only disadvantage of this set is that unless you use hydro pump, which has already been nerfed, your typing remains weak to fighting moves
 
I prefer a special set to a physical for Greninja. I've been testing a lot and he cleans up well with this:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse

(Water shuriken for when he can't outspeed and just needs to finish something off)
the only disadvantage of this set is that unless you use hydro pump, which has already been nerfed, your typing remains weak to fighting moves
Greninja is already a speedy monster. Teammates are there to get rid of things shudenja cant.

As for Nature, if you go with a Physical move, give it the Hasty or Naive nature.

If you want priority to to finish something off, I suggest Shadow Sneak or Quick Attack. as the number of damages is too random with Water Shuriken and doesnt cover typing, as you already have a water attack.

===============

As for Greninja moveset, it totally depends of your teammates and what you want to cover. Greninja is very good in any teams thanks to versability but is better in a team that WILL cover his weaknesses.

Greninja weakness depends of the moveset coverage he have AND:

1) Priority abuser or quicker Pokemon
2) Bulky Pokemon

===============
 
I prefer a special set to a physical for Greninja. I've been testing a lot and he cleans up well with this:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse

(Water shuriken for when he can't outspeed and just needs to finish something off)
the only disadvantage of this set is that unless you use hydro pump, which has already been nerfed, your typing remains weak to fighting moves
If you have a Physical move, then the last 4 EVs should go to Attack and you shouldn't be using the Timid Nature. Also, it's been said that Greninja only needs 244 Spe EVs and 168 SpA EVs to outspeed and OHKO a majority of targets. The rest can go into Atk if you're running a physical move.

Water Shuriken is a pretty bad move without max Attack investment, considering Greninja's already sub-par attack. It fails to OHKO/2HKO anyone you would use it on, such as Blaziken and Talonflame (4 Atk (custom) (Water Shuriken hits 3 times) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 126-150 (36.52 - 43.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Dark Pulse is also a sub-par option as it only really helps you take out spinblockers, as Hydropump will almost definitely do just as much damage to any other ghosts (Like Gengar: 168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 255-302 (97.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO). U-Turn is better used for taking out Psychics like Celebi, Alakazam, Espeon, etc. as it KO's and gives your team momentum. Lastly, HP Fire is amazing as it stops you from being walled by the likes of Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc. and Grass Knot is also great in the same regard for bulky waters.

Overall the best set for Greninja is probably:

Greninja@Life Orb
Protean
Naive/Hasty, 96 Atk / 168 SpA / 244 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- U-Turn
- Ice Beam
- HP Fire / Grass Knot

This is VCrowe's set, here are some calcs from them:

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 442-530 (128.48 - 154.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 244-291 (59.65 - 71.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 211-250 (61.69 - 73.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 811-957 (212.86 - 251.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 406-478 (145.51 - 171.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 179-213 (65.8 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93.35 - 109.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Celebi: 421-499 (123.46 - 146.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

**Some of these calcs have 100 Atk instead of 96 but that should barely hurt the KO's at all.**
 
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Hey guys I just started getting into competitive battling with Gen 6. Before I was semi-competitive. I see alot of offensive sets here that don't run Dark pulse so I was just wondering why. Is it because other moves grenenja has takes care of the pokes Dark pulse would while offering better coverage?
 
Hey guys I just started getting into competitive battling with Gen 6. Before I was semi-competitive. I see alot of offensive sets here that don't run Dark pulse so I was just wondering why. Is it because other moves grenenja has takes care of the pokes Dark pulse would while offering better coverage?
Dark Pulse is still totally viable pick if you want 100% accuracy move to hit ghost hard with (Hydro Pump has shaky 80%), but with Protean you gain STAB on EVERY SINGLE offensive move you can use, which is great. And yes, there are just better options for coverage and power which you may hit your opponents with.
 
Unfortunately Protean isn't released yet, but I would like to use it. Of course, Spikes, U-turn and Rapid Spin can be a viable combination, but his defenses are not the best, and You only have the time to set one row of Spikes before being ohkoed, unless Greninja holds Focus Sash or there aren't prioritier.
4-moveslot syndrome were widespread in the previous metagame, and I think that it will be in this, Greninja is just an example (Hp Fire, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam are required).
I've heard that Greninja can learn Dark Pulse via TM, it is confirmed or not?
Unfortunately Protean isn't released yet, but I would like to use it. Of course, Spikes, U-turn and Rapid Spin can be a viable combination, but his defenses are not the best, and You only have the time to set one row of Spikes before being ohkoed, unless Greninja holds Focus Sash or there aren't prioritier.
4-moveslot syndrome were widespread in the previous metagame, and I think that it will be in this, Greninja is just an example (Hp Fire, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam are required).
I've heard that Greninja can learn Dark Pulse via TM, it is confirmed or not?
How does greening a NOT have protean?? I've met TWO people on pss who have had protean on their greninja D:
 
Dark Pulse is still totally viable pick if you want 100% accuracy move to hit ghost hard with (Hydro Pump has shaky 80%), but with Protean you gain STAB on EVERY SINGLE offensive move you can use, which is great. And yes, there are just better options for coverage and power which you may hit your opponents with.
Protean also works with support moves :)
 
How does greening a NOT have protean?? I've met TWO people on pss who have had protean on their greninja D:
First post in the thread from 22 days ago > Better respond to it

In all seriousness, the first pages are obviously out of date, that's how threads work. The OP gets updated, the other posts don't. He does get Protean.

Also, don't double post please, if you have something to add, edit your first post.
 
so I've been running a pretty fun and successful anti-lead set, however I could use some advice on my two coverage moves.

Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Taunt
- Hydro Pump
- Toxic Spikes
- Ice Beam


Been running Hydro Beam, but does anyone think I could use something better over Ice beam perhaps? I was considering U-Turn and changing up the IVs and Nature to Hasty, or just dropping Ice Beam for Spikes, but honestly I think it would be a waste of time trying to setup 5 layers with such a frail guy. Toxic Spikes is easy due to Taunt forcing switches, and Protean making you Poison which is a very useful defensive typing right now.

Thoughts appreciated!
 
Greninja is already a speedy monster. Teammates are there to get rid of things shudenja cant.

As for Nature, if you go with a Physical move, give it the Hasty or Naive nature.

If you want priority to to finish something off, I suggest Shadow Sneak or Quick Attack. as the number of damages is too random with Water Shuriken and doesnt cover typing, as you already have a water attack.

===============

As for Greninja moveset, it totally depends of your teammates and what you want to cover. Greninja is very good in any teams thanks to versability but is better in a team that WILL cover his weaknesses.

Greninja weakness depends of the moveset coverage he have AND:

1) Priority abuser or quicker Pokemon
2) Bulky Pokemon

===============
Um...probably not Quick Attack. Physical Greninja is decent, but Special Greninja is way better IMO.
I think Ice Beam is way too important to take away from sets.
 
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