Pokémon Greninja

[VCrowe]

But the addition of a Life Orb kind of negates all of these calculations. With it, Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO on Heatran and Tyranitar too. Even with 252 HP / 252 SpD variants, Surf is still a 2HKO with Life Orb. So, unless you are using a Focus Sash, Surf should be good enough.

Those calculations were done WITH a Life Orb. Surf is a 3HKO on both Heatran and Tyranitar even with a Life Orb.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Those calculations were done WITH a Life Orb. Surf is a 3HKO on both Heatran and Tyranitar even with a Life Orb.

Are you sure?

252 SpA Life Orb (Custom) (90 BP Surf) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 226-268 (58.7 - 69.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) (90 BP Surf) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 237-281 (58.66 - 69.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) (90 BP Surf) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 328-385 (96.18 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Although I don't know if the Smogon Calculator takes account of the Sand Stream boost.

 

[VCrowe]

Are you sure?

252 SpA Life Orb (Custom) (90 BP Surf) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 226-268 (58.7 - 69.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) (90 BP Surf) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 237-281 (58.66 - 69.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although I don't know if the Smogon Calculator takes account of the Sand Stream boost.

My fault, I had forgotten to switch typing from normal to water. I'll post correct calcs soon. Still, if your going to run a mixed set with 168 SpAtk, I would prefer Hydro Pump instead. With 252 SpAtk I would say that Surf could be a better option for the accuracy.

 

[Time Mage]

I thought it was really strange that Surf only 3HKOed Heatran, even the most specially defensive one... Good catch, Fluffy Blue Bunny. So, Both Heatran and Tyranittar are 2HKOed no matter what with Surf and Hydro Pump, then... My choice is quite clear now. Thanks VCrowe for the calcs, too, even if you got them wrong :P

 

[Schpoonman]

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 156-187 (38.61 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- 32.81% chance to 2HKO

Rocks gives you a guaranteed 2HKO with Hydro Pump (assuming both land, obviously) while Surf still does not 2HKO. What should be noted is Grass Knot is actually more powerful than BOTH of these; Tyranitar is heavy enough to give Grass Knot 120 BP and Protean means Greninja gets STAB on Grass Knot, while it also has the benefit of being 100% accurate.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 211-250 (52.22 - 61.88%) -- 96.48% chance to 2HKO

Note that Grass Knot has an extremely high chance for a guaranteed 2HKO even with no hazards. In fact, a low damage roll on Surf followed by a high damage roll with Grass Knot can sometimes 2HKO without hazards.

 

[RockStarFish]

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 156-187 (38.61 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- 32.81% chance to 2HKO

Rocks gives you a guaranteed 2HKO with Hydro Pump (assuming both land, obviously) while Surf still does not 2HKO. What should be noted is Grass Knot is actually more powerful than BOTH of these; Tyranitar is heavy enough to give Grass Knot 120 BP and Protean means Greninja gets STAB on Grass Knot, while it also has the benefit of being 100% accurate.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 211-250 (52.22 - 61.88%) -- 96.48% chance to 2HKO

Note that Grass Knot has an extremely high chance for a guaranteed 2HKO even with no hazards. In fact, a low damage roll on Surf followed by a high damage roll with Grass Knot can sometimes 2HKO without hazards.

If Tyranitar's the critical point for deciding Greninja's moveset, you're better off going mixed. Standard mixed LO Greninja (100ATK/168SAT/240SPD) 2HKOs almost every variant of Tyranitar after Stealth Rock with either two Surfs or a combination of Surf and U-turn. The variant with the most chance to survive is mixed defensive 252/0+/252 Tyranitar, which still gets 2HKO'd over half the time, and fails to OHKO Greninja with Stone Edge even after Stealth Rock and a turn of Sandstorm.

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 172-203 (42.57 - 50.24%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Tyranitar in sand: 174-211 (43.06 - 52.22%) -- 73.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 193-228 (67.71 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[avsimone]

Is it possible to run a physical greninja set? It's attack is only a little bit lower than it's sp. attack, and it's got pretty good moves physically
Greninja: Adamant
Item: Choice band

• Water shuriken (signature move, can get through subs and can take out some faster pokemon without priority)
• night slash (secondary stab)
• rock tomb (for setup for other pokemon, scares off talonflame switches or anything that's faster than the other pokemon on your team)
• u-turn

 

[DarkestSamus]

Overall the best set for Greninja is probably:

Greninja@Life Orb
Protean
Naive/Hasty, 96 Atk / 168 SpA / 244 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- U-Turn
- Ice Beam
- HP Fire / Grass Knot
-snip-

I REALLY like this. My experience is only from the Battle Maison, but there I've discovered the following:

*I can't really figure out what Dark Pulse is for.

*Grass Knot is incredibly helpful, perhaps my second most used move after Hydro Pump

*HP Fire doesn't come up a lot as being useful (NOTE: Battle Maison never made me fight Skarmory, Forretress, etc. which is obviously what HP Fire is for)

Any preference for Naïve over Hasty?

Also, I have a 29/31/31/31/31/31 and a 31/31/31/31/29/31 Hasty Protean Froakie. Which should I use, or should I be super-anal and go for 31/31/xx/31/31/31?

Also, is Spikes confirmed? I've never seen one use Spikes, just Toxic Spikes, and Serebii doesn't list it.


Thanks!

 

[Punchshroom]

*I can't really figure out what Dark Pulse is for.
In that case, teach Extrasensory to Greninja to turn the tables on Fighting-types, and also handily deals with Tentacruel.

Any preference for Naïve over Hasty?
It is mainly a safety measure for priority, but since the majority of Greninja's possible resistances lie on the special side (Water, Fire, Ice, Grass, Electric), Hasty is perfectly acceptable.

Also, is Spikes confirmed? I've never seen one use Spikes, just Toxic Spikes, and Serebii doesn't list it.
Spikes can be Heart Scaled onto Greninja if memory serves right.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Which OHKOs and 2HKOs, exactly? Which calculations support your statement? If no calcs are provided, Surf should be the default option, since it is more reliable and does more damage on average (90 vs 88 effective BP). With calculations that actually prove that Hydro Pump is needed to kill or prevent a safe switch from certain pokémon that otherwise could threaten or kill Greninja, then Hydro Pump will be justified. If this is done just because in the last gen most pokémon used Hydro Pump, then Surf should be used instead.

For the record, I didn't ignore you, but when I tried to run calcs showdown went down. Thanks to VCrowe and others for running them for me.

 

[Time Mage]

For the record, I didn't ignore you, but when I tried to run calcs showdown went down. Thanks to VCrowe and others for running them for me.

Eh, no problem. I'm happy enough that

a) I don't really need Hydro Pump over Surf (I would have used it if necessary, but would have cried a little for the faulty acc)

and

b) I didn't need to do the calculations myself (I had too much work on my hands until today)

 

[Bravadorado]

*I can't really figure out what Dark Pulse is for.

*Grass Knot is incredibly helpful, perhaps my second most used move after Hydro Pump

*HP Fire doesn't come up a lot as being useful (NOTE: Battle Maison never made me fight Skarmory, Forretress, etc. which is obviously what HP Fire is for)

Any preference for Naïve over Hasty?

Also, I have a 29/31/31/31/31/31 and a 31/31/31/31/29/31 Hasty Protean Froakie. Which should I use, or should I be super-anal and go for 31/31/xx/31/31/31?

Also, is Spikes confirmed? I've never seen one use Spikes, just Toxic Spikes, and Serebii doesn't list it.

1. It's for Aegislash and other dangerous Ghost types, but generally Hydropump & HP Fire will do the job just as well and give you better coverage together.
2. Yeah, but the only thing you are taking out with it is bulky waters.
3. Yup, it's mainly for anything steel. Really the choice between HP Fire and Grass Knot should depend on the rest of your team. If you could use a powerful extra grass move, or a powerful extra fire move. They both provide excellent coverage.
4. Depends on what you want, both have benefits. Priority attacks are Greninja's worst nightmare, so lowering your Defense is dangerous. However, your SpD is the better of your two stats and lowering it wouldn't be playing to his strengths. I'm not sure if Hasty Greninja survives any OHKOs from priority moves though, they might just kill him either way lol.
5. Super anal is the best if you want to play competitive. But if choosing between the two, I'd say the second one. No sense in sacrificing those HP IVs into SpD if you're just going to lower it with a Hasty Nature, yes?
6. Yes. It's definitely confirmed, though I wouldn't know where to get it (Other guy said Heartscale so try that).

 

[Jaguar360]

Not entirely sure about Taunt on such a frail guy like Greninja. What kind of moves does Taunt stop that justifies its place over a coverage move (namely Extrasensory to hit Poisons or HP Fire to hit Steels) to threaten more stuff which allows it to 'anti-lead' better, or U-turn to pivot into stuff that threatens Poison-types like Tentacruel or Mega-Venusaur which soaks up Toxic Spikes & wastes your efforts?

Greninja's high speed allows him to taunt and then U-turn out quickly. Works pretty well.

 

[VCrowe]

I ran those calcs again, and both Surf and Hydro Pump are a guaranteed 2HKO on both Heatran and Tyranitar at 252 SpAtk. However, at the standard 168 only Hydro Pump is a guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[Time Mage]

I ran those calcs again, and both Surf and Hydro Pump are a guaranteed 2HKO on both Heatran and Tyranitar at 252 SpAtk. However, at the standard 168 only Hydro Pump is a guaranteed 2HKO.

How's 168 SA EVs the standard? I don't really understand people some times, Greninja is really easy to EV: 252 in SA, 252 in Sp, rest in whatever. It's frail enough that bargaining some EVs from SA and investing them in HP or a defense won't protect it much better, and investing in attack if your only physical attack is U-Turn is a real waste of potential.

I'm seriously wondering why 168 SA EVs are the standard. What is the reasoning? Specially after seeing this updated calcs.

 

[DarkestSamus]

How's 168 SA EVs the standard? I don't really understand people some times, Greninja is really easy to EV: 252 in SA, 252 in Sp, rest in whatever. It's frail enough that bargaining some EVs from SA and investing them in HP or a defense won't protect it much better, and investing in attack if your only physical attack is U-Turn is a real waste of potential.

I'm seriously wondering why 168 SA EVs are the standard. What is the reasoning? Specially after seeing this updated calcs.

It's 96 Atk / 168 SpA / 244 Spe

I believe it was discovered that 168 SA EVs were all that was needed to maintain all crucial Special KOs, and 244 Speed was all that was needed to outspeed all crucial Speed targets. This leaves 96 left to put in attack to increase the punch of U-Turn/Shadow Sneak/whatever you're running.

Of course, I think it's worth mentioning that a lot of people ARE running 252 Speed on Greninja, so Greninja vs. Greninja the 244ers lose out.

 

[VCrowe]

It's 96 Atk / 168 SpA / 244 Spe

I believe it was discovered that 168 SA EVs were all that was needed to maintain all crucial Special KOs, and 244 Speed was all that was needed to outspeed all crucial Speed targets. This leaves 96 left to put in attack to increase the punch of U-Turn/Shadow Sneak/whatever you're running.

Of course, I think it's worth mentioning that a lot of people ARE running 252 Speed on Greninja, so Greninja vs. Greninja the 244ers lose out.

Yes, in fact I was the one who came up with the set for 96 Atk / 168 SpAtk / 244 Spe. With 168 SpAtk you can grab key OHKO's while outspeeding everything except opposing Greninja, which honestly should be avoided at all costs. 96 Atk is used for more potent U Turn's.

Basically, you summed up the reasoning perfectly.

 

[Time Mage]

Well, I'm sorry to say then that I strongly disagree with that EV spread. Not fully investing in Speed, even if it's only to outspeed other Greninjas, seems foolish, and, specially, not fully investing in Special Attack on a pokémon that doesn't have a really high Special Attack is... I don't know what to say. The extra power of your U-Turns doesn't justify having to use Hydro Pump over the much more reliable Surf to accomplish the same results.

Oh, and apparently, I'm not the only one thinking this.

 

[VCrowe]

Well, I'm sorry to say then that I strongly disagree with that EV spread. Not fully investing in Speed, even if it's only to outspeed other Greninjas, seems foolish, and, specially, not fully investing in Special Attack on a pokémon that doesn't have a really high Special Attack is... I don't know what to say. The extra power of your U-Turns doesn't justify having to use Hydro Pump over the much more reliable Surf to accomplish the same results.

Oh, and apparently, I'm not the only one thinking this.

I've already read the entire thread, and I believe that investing fully in Speed is foolish. SpAtk depends more on preference, however having 252 Speed just to speed-tie with other Greninja is a flat out waste of potential.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

I've already read the entire thread, and I believe that investing fully in Speed is foolish. SpAtk depends more on preference, however having 252 Speed just to speed-tie with other Greninja is a flat out waste of potential.

And you're going to put those 8 EVs where? Into attack? How much stronger does 2 extra attack make u-turn? Speed tieing in a mirror is arguably more useful than a neglibly more powerful u-turn.

 

[VCrowe]

And you're going to put those 8 EVs where? Into attack? How much stronger does 2 extra attack make u-turn? Speed tieing in a mirror is arguably more useful than a neglibly more powerful u-turn.

Honestly, IMO, 2 extra attack is better than having full speed just to tie with other Greninja. There's no guarantee you'll win the tie, so Greninja Vs Greninja should be avoided at all costs.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Honestly, IMO, 2 extra attack is better than having full speed just to tie with other Greninja. There's no guarantee you'll win the tie, so Greninja Vs Greninja should be avoided at all costs.

At least speed tying the mirror has a foreseeable use though. 2 extra attack is actually totally useless unless you have calcs to support it?

 

[VCrowe]

At least speed tying the mirror has a foreseeable use though. 2 extra attack is actually totally useless unless you have calcs to support it?

I'm speaking from a theoretical standpoint concerning that. The set I use is Hasty with 96 Atk / 168 SpAtk / 244 Spe.

Damage Claculations

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 811-957 (212.86 - 251.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 406-478 (145.51 - 171.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 179-213 (65.8 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93.35 - 109.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Celebi: 421-499 (123.46 - 146.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Thorhammer]

If 90% of Greninjas don't go for max Speed, then for the Greninjas that do, Greninja vs. Greninja means a 95% chance of going first. Those odds aren't half bad.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

I'm speaking from a theoretical standpoint concerning that. The set I use is Hasty with 96 Atk / 168 SpAtk / 244 Spe.

Damage Claculations

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 811-957 (212.86 - 251.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 406-478 (145.51 - 171.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 179-213 (65.8 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93.35 - 109.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Celebi: 421-499 (123.46 - 146.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I've already seen those calcs. Kudos for the effort btw. I'm disregarding the SpA sacrifice though. We're solely debating the speed issue ATM. I'm not asking if 96 atk investment makes a difference, I'm asking if 8 does.