Pokémon Talonflame

[Shroomisaur]

Talonflame is so ubiquitous that Speed EV investment is a big decision; losing the Talonflame vs Talonflame mirror matchup is a terribly common problem. It's a shame because Talonflame is already very frail and often kills itself from recoil, so it really needs the HP investment. Choosing the right EV spread is a tough decision.

This thing's Brave Bird is so incredible, it functions much like a "panic button". Often if a sweeper gets out of control, all you need to do wear it down until you can send in Talon and auto-revenge it with BB. Its mere existence should be a huge deterrent to any Flying-weak sweeper. For example, Talonflame (along with Aegis) is probably the biggest reason why Swords Dance Breloom has fallen from amazing to awful. Talonflame is also an amazing anti-sun Pokemon, destroying Venusaur and the like.

Obviously SR is the best way to neuter it, but Fake Out Megakahn and Extremespeed Lucario deserve a special mention for out-prioritizing it.

I'm curious to hear some more discussion about teammates, I've found Rotom-W to make a great partner and check opposing Talonflames as well.

 

[Maestro72]

Mocha: Don't forget Tailwind. Giving your team double speed for four turns works very well with such a suicidal U-Turner.

Shroomisaur: Definitely Breloom especially if running Tailwind and/or U-Turn. Breloom resists all of Breloom's weaknesses, can threaten any Rock type with Mach Punch and/or Bullet Seed, and can even punish counter-switches with Rock Tomb or Spore.

Rotom-Wash is also a nice compliment as you said, though more in terms of forming a Special-Physical Volturn core.

 

[Ballofire]

This bird needs a ton of baby sitting, if you don't have a spinner you better hope you know what you're doing. On a related note I often don't even click stone edge vs this thing as TTar, just hit pursuit ;p

 

[Mocha]

Mocha: Don't forget Tailwind. Giving your team double speed for four turns works very well with such a suicidal U-Turner.

Shroomisaur: Definitely Breloom especially if running Tailwind and/or U-Turn. Breloom resists all of Breloom's weaknesses, can threaten any Rock type with Mach Punch and/or Bullet Seed, and can even punish counter-switches with Rock Tomb or Spore.

Rotom-Wash is also a nice compliment as you said, though more in terms of forming a Special-Physical Volturn core.

True, it does get Tailwind, and opens up for slower threats to follow-up. Even though Sticky Web is superior in this sense, the nice thing about Tailwind is that it helps your own Pokemon, whether they are Flying/Levitators or not. Tailwind is also not as limited in users as Sticky Web. I would like to see Talonflame bring more potential with this, but so far all I have run into are standard Talonflame sets, with an occasional Bulk Up set. I suppose it's cause he just does the job better at what he does best; to abuse Gale Wings to the fullest. All I know is that Moltres is crying in a corner now.

Oh and for Doubles, I just had a bizarre idea, though it's probably more fitting for Ubers. If Lugia could learn Skill Swap/or any Pokemon that utilizes Flying moves in Ubers and that can learn Skill Swap - you can try Skill Swapping Gale Wings onto Lugia, which would leave you with an essentially useless Talonflame, unless you plan to use him as some kind of suicide lead. Hey, it would be fun xD

 

[NoULyons]

Hi everyone, I'm really loving this Pokemon, but what I'm wondering is what HP should I end up at to make sure I can take 2 Stealth Rock hits and not die? Will any odd number do, or is it more specific from that?

I'd really like to know before I EV train mine. Here's what I was planning on using:

Talonflame@Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant - 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Roost
Swords Dance/U-turn(haven't decided)

It comes out to 319HP, is that ok for the 2 SR entries and the 10 LO uses(I know recoil is going to make this mostly moot, but I'm all about optimization)?

While I'm asking questions, what do you guys think the best Rapid Spin/Defog partner is for Talon? Donphan can come in on SR while also tanking two of Talon's weaknesses in case he has to, but it amplifies the team's weakness to Water. On the other hand Tentacruel or Blastoise can Spin SR away and take Water hits really well, but lose out to Talon's Electric weakness.

So would a core like this be suitable for Talonflame?

Donphan@Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Impish - 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Rapid Spin
Earthquake
Stealth Rock(he can get this from Smeargle, right?)
Ice Shard

AND

Rotom-W@Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Modest - 252 HP / 56 SpAtk / 200 ???(I've usually thrown these into defense, but I don't know anymore)
Volt Switch
Hydro Pump
Will-o-wisp
???(I would love Pain Split here, but can't get it w/o the move tutor)


Sorry for a long post, but the more I learn the better I can play.

 

[magic123]

I agree with Shroomisaur;up there in the ladder,almost everyone has a Rotom-W.(I swear that thing is gonna be #1 in the usage statistics.)Tyranitar is also there,always being a pain in the butt.Therefore,I do not utilize the Swords Dance Talonflame,the Choice Band set is better in my opinion.I cannot even count how many times a sweeper like Mega Kangaskhan,Garchomp,Dragonite,Scizor,Lucario and Blaiziken was geared up to destroy my entire team,but Talonflame was there to do a clean 70-85% to them with Brave Bird (but Blaiziken in KOed obviously).The expression of a "panic button" fits my Talonflame perfectly,at least in my opinion.Yes Stealth Rock is a pain,but with the Defog buff this generation,I have had little problems with it.Oh yeah,Choice Rotom is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock with Brave Bird or Flare Blitz.

 

[Impy]

As someone who has been using Talonflame since the community collectively realized just what it was truly capable of, I have to say... This is bar-none the best bird in the game. I never thought for a moment when it was first revealed that a fire-flying type generic wild bird pokemon a la pidgey and tailow would ever be worth a second look, but the sheer amount of pokemon this thing can pop in and murderize is just ridiculous. Talonflame puts the offensive viability of the flying type on center stage. He's a serious boss, and probably OU for years to come.

 

[Flamebot]

I think running focus shash on Talonflame would be running focus sash could be interesting to, that is if Focus sash is still usable after stealth rock. If so this could allow you to take out quite abit of pokemon, and when someone does OhKo you you are still at 1HP and might can deal a fair chunck of damage to them and then roost. I think it could be a thing and interesting to use, if you have max investment in attack(Maybe?)

 

[farranpoison]

I think running focus shash on Talonflame would be running focus sash could be interesting to, that is if Focus sash is still usable after stealth rock. If so this could allow you to take out quite abit of pokemon, and when someone does OhKo you you are still at 1HP and might can deal a fair chunck of damage to them and then roost. I think it could be a thing and interesting to use, if you have max investment in attack(Maybe?)

Focus Sash only works if the mon is at full HP. After Stealth Rock. Talonflame will be at 50% HP, so no, Focus Sash will not work. Now, if you had Spinner/Defog support, perhaps it'd be useful, but most people run other items.

 

[Flamebot]

Focus Sash only works if the mon is at full HP. After Stealth Rock. Talonflame will be at 50% HP, so no, Focus Sash will not work. Now, if you had Spinner/Defog support, perhaps it'd be useful, but most people run other items.

Well, if SR isn't set up it seems like it could work still to, and it's not expected, tho yeah Choice band and LO and even flying gem do seem more viable, you got to admit this could screw your opponents over to.
So it seems like Talonflame can screw alot of opponents over. Not running Galewing seems like it would make this pokemon less viable, so usally I think people want Gale wing, tho if somebody ran Flamebody, it could be nice to.

I do see this thing being OU, due to Galewing and powerful stab moves. That and many people are scared of this Pokemon(Which is also a bad thing because that means they might run a rock move) I find it kind of funnu actually, almost every thread I've seen on Pokemon and move set, they have one move or tactic to deal with Talonflame(Also why focus sash could be nice)

 

[meteor64]

Focus Sash only works if the mon is at full HP. After Stealth Rock. Talonflame will be at 50% HP, so no, Focus Sash will not work. Now, if you had Spinner/Defog support, perhaps it'd be useful, but most people run other items.

Not to mention, every time you even attack you'd break your sash, that seems pretty silly to me

 

[Flamebot]

Not to mention, every time you even attack you'd break your sash, that seems pretty silly to me

Then don't use brave bird. Simple as that. Acrobatics is still strong, and there are other moves that you can use instead.

 

[farranpoison]

Then don't use brave bird. Simple as that. Aireal ace is still strong, and there are other moves that you can use instead.

No one uses Aerial Ace. Base 60 Power compared to Base 120 Power is no contest. Acrobatics would be the move to compare it to, which has, assuming Focus Sash has been activated, 110 BP.

 

[Flamebot]

No one uses Aerial Ace. Base 60 Power compared to Base 120 Power is no contest. Acrobatics would be the move to compare it to, which has, assuming Focus Sash has been activated, 110 BP.

Yea, I editted my post after I said aerial ace realising that this would work better.

 

[meteor64]

But Acrobatics only then becomes powerful once you use the sash, which means its only good...when you're at 1 hp. Not to mention you still don't have a non-recoil alternative to Flare Blitz that could help ensure you don't get forced into breaking it.

 

[Shiruba]

This is bar-none the best bird in the game.

> Best bird
> Ignores Ho-Oh [can accept Lugia b/c wtf is that supposed to be]

But aside from my nitpicking, definitely. While I think it's been overhyped right now [everyone's gay for their shiny new Talonflame], it'll definitely be OU imo; it's such a great panic button if something's killing your team, as well as having nice STABs with good moves and some nice options for its last moveslot, and while it does have its counters, it's not meant to give you a 6-0: it's a revenger / panic button, and a cleaner, and one of the best ones at that. Its biggest foil is SR; it would kill errything but TTar if it were around with its ability in gen three or something. Rapid Spin ahoy!

 

[Flamebot]

But Acrobatics only then becomes powerful once you use the sash, which means its only good...when you're at 1 hp. Not to mention you still don't have a non-recoil alternative to Flare Blitz that could help ensure you don't get forced into breaking it.

Flame charge. It's weaker but doesn't have recoile and sword dance can raise it's attack.

 

[farranpoison]

Flame charge. It's weaker but doesn't have recoile and sword dance can raise it's attack.

Flame Charge is about half as strong as Flare Blitz.

What you don't seem to be getting is that Pokemon is a metagame revolving around what a mon can do to deal the most damage to an enemy at once. Most people run Flare Blitz/Brave Bird because, while you do get recoil, you deal a crapton of damage to an enemy, and can even OHKO certain mons. Dealing less damage means the opponent has more chances to setup or OHKO/2HKO you back.

 

[newtonja]

This pokemon acts as a fantastic check to blaziken breloom, and volcarona, keldeo, infernape. if this pokemon is ou material you can expect to see a drop in usage of these three pokemon although i'm willing to bet blaziken will be ubers so i'm not sure about that one

 

[meteor64]

Flame charge. It's weaker but doesn't have recoile and sword dance can raise it's attack.

In the same realm as Aerial Ace. What are your realistically going to achieve with a 50 base power move from base 81 attack, even with Swords Dance?

 

[Impy]

> Best bird
> Ignores Ho-Oh [can accept Lugia b/c wtf is that supposed to be]

But aside from my nitpicking, definitely. While I think it's been overhyped right now [everyone's gay for their shiny new Talonflame], it'll definitely be OU imo; it's such a great panic button if something's killing your team, as well as having nice STABs with good moves and some nice options for its last moveslot, and while it does have its counters, it's not meant to give you a 6-0: it's a revenger / panic button, and a cleaner, and one of the best ones at that. Its biggest foil is SR; it would kill errything but TTar if it were around with its ability in gen three or something. Rapid Spin ahoy!

I made that statement ignoring ubers. Ho-oh with assault vest is crazy, have you seen those calcs?

 

[machao11991]

Flame charge. It's weaker but doesn't have recoile and sword dance can raise it's attack.

seriously you trying to use an attack that has 70 less power than Flare Blitz, and boost his speed, which Talonflame absolutely doesn't need due to priority brave bird/acro, and for what?

What's the point of reserve the focus sash when you can't kill anything worth a damn using a base 50 power attack on a pokemon with 80 base attack? And thus, becoming a non-factor for the enemy team...

 

[Flamebot]

In the same realm as Aerial Ace. What are your realistically going to achieve with a 50 base power move from base 81 attack, even with Swords Dance?

Again, I editted my message to replace it with Acrobatics. Flareblitz will still work as long as no steal or ice type come in until Sash is broken. As I've said before tho, I think running other items would be better. But the fact is as useless as it may seem it can work, but if the person is going to use Acrobatics, Flying gem is still more usefull. I guess I should save the focus sash for a lvl 1 Ratatta huh?(Joking bout that btw lol)

But it seems unviable on a Talonflame I guess?

 

[meteor64]

Again, I editted my message to replace it with Acrobatics. Flareblitz will still work as long as no steal or ice type come in until Sash is broken. As I've said before tho, I think running other items would be better. But the fact is as useless as it may seem it can work, but if the person is going to use Acrobatics, Flying gem is still more usefull. I guess I should save the focus sash for a lvl 1 Ratatta huh?(Joking bout that btw lol)

Well my point was that Flame charge really is just as good (read:bad) as Aerial Ace, regardless of whether you meant Acrobatics or not. And as for only Flare Blitzing at 1 hp... yeah. No.

I'm sorry, but Sash just REALLY doesn't work on Talon at all.

 

[farranpoison]

Actually, I feel that Flying Gem (or any gem really) won't be used a lot anymore, now with the power drop from x1.5 > x1.3. Also, since it seems like you can't find them ingame, and you can't transfer them over from Pokebank, should gems really be allowed on PS?