pokebank (tier leaders pay attention)

[blarajan]

so we all hate non pokebank, yup. happily, zarel has implemented a pokebank ladder for our tiers, so we can at least play pokemon that doesn't suck.

HOWEVER. what do we want pokebank to include? yes, we don't know for sure that crazy shit might happen when we transfer our pokemon, but i am going to go out on a limb here and say that pokebank will let us transfer our pokemon as exact copies from before. likewise, due to previous transfer mechanisms not allowing item transfers, i believe it is not a stretch to assume that items are not going to be transferred.

in my opinion, pokebank ou / lc / ubers / doubles should include all of the previous pokemon as they are legal (along with how that affects breeding), all the xy stuff (clearly), BUT ONLY XY ITEMS. the biggest differences are like, non normal gems, custap berry, and soul dew. i do not think that there should be flying gem and what not in pokebank tiers, since they almost definitely won't be allowed. i asked zarel to remove the gems and custap berry from lc pokebank, but i was told to make this thread.

thoughts?

 

[Zarel]

So to clarify what our options are:

We will only have one Pokébank-like meta. I don't want one meta with past-gen pokémon allowed but past-gen items banned, and another with everything unreleased allowed, etc.

So there are two questions:

1. What do we want our Pokébank-like meta to allow?

It'll obviously allow past-gen Pokémon. But should it also allow unreleased items? Unreleased gen 6 Hidden abilities? Unreleased gen 5 Hidden abilities?

2. What should we call it?

Note that DW OU last gen was an "allow everything unreleased" format, including allowing Genesect and Keldeo, despite them having nothing to do with DW. That's why Pokébank OU is also an "allow everything unreleased" format.

This has, however, gotten a lot more confusion this gen than last gen, so if we do decide on an "allow everything unreleased" format, we might want to rename it to "Unreleased OU" etc or something like that.

 

[Steamroll]

As it currently stands items that cannot be found in XY in any form (all gems bar Normal) should be illegal until they're released either via event or by another game in the future. Beyond that there shouldn't be any issues in allowing all released Gen V pokemon's hidden abilities to be used. Since Shadow Tag Chandelure wasn't released at all, and it had its Hidden Ability changed to Infiltrator, then Shadow Tag Chandelure cannot legally be a thing. Also since Sheer Force Feraligatr cannot legally be obtained in Gen V AND it is not obtainable in Gen VI yet it should be illegal until it is released, same goes for all other similar mons.

 

[Celestavian]

As a former Dream World OU player, I support a "allow everything unreleased" approach to Pokebank. I personally find that the name of the tier was a bit misleading. The name itself was a leftover from Pokemon-Online, most likely to allow players from the PO server to easily identify with the equivalent Smogon metagame. "Unreleased OU" would have suited it better, but that's all ancient history now. The goal of the Dream World metagame was to project the future of BW OU, where all Dream World and event exclusive stuff would be legal. Many people criticized it for not being "certain" enough, about how it was possible for unexpected event Pokemon to be released (V-Create Rayquaza for example) that we couldn't predict, or the possibility that not everything would be released. In fact, there were a few Pokemon that did not ever receive their DW abilities (Chandelure and Zapdos stick out as prime examples). However, the DW tier was exactly what I called it before: a projection. We had every reason to believe that all the items, abilities, and Pokemon Nintendo took the time and money to program into the game would eventually be released. As a result, we built a metagame around what we believed OU would look like 6/12/24/X months down the road.

This is why I support Pokebank OU (Unreleased OU possibly?) to allow everything, as a projection of what the future metagame might be like. There's no reason this has to be that strict, especially since it will be even more temporary than Dream World OU was. If new information comes out specifically stating that item transfer is impossible, or some other curve ball we don't expect, then all we have to do is update the tier to match what we know. Until then, I say we allow as broad a range of teambuilding options as our current information allows.

 

[Aldaron]

I am ok with whatever the majority of tier leaders want here, as I don't think either side has anything stronger than "that is what I want" as justification

 

[Hugendugen]

For what it's worth, there isn't any uncertainty over whether or not items will be transferable through PokeBank. http://www.pokemonxy.com/en-us/strategy/ makes it clear that "If you try to deposit Pokémon that are holding Berries or other items, the items will be removed and sent to your Bag. If your Bag is full, the items will disappear." I don't know about the gems, but I suspect that Soul Dew will eventually be made available through an event.

Personally I lean towards not allowing items or abilities that likely wont be available upon the release of PokeBank, but I'm open to "Unreleased Ubers/OU/LC/Doubles" if that's the tier leader majority.

 

[blarajan]

Didn't know that. Since we know for a fact we aren't getting items, Pokebank should just be items we get from XY, but with previous gen mons.

THAT IS MY VOTE

 

[Jibaku]

I am ok with whatever the majority of tier leaders want here, as I don't think either side has anything stronger than "that is what I want" as justification

Expanding onto this I'd want to be able to fiddle around with Mega Lati@s should their information be confirmed before their release. With this rate of hacking and research going on, this is a decent possibility.

 

[Woodchuck]

We will only have one Pokébank-like meta. I don't want one meta with past-gen pokémon allowed but past-gen items banned, and another with everything unreleased allowed, etc.

Isn't there some distinction in "realism" between a Pokébank meta with BW-obtainable Pokemon but no items/nothing that wasn't obtainable in BW and an "unreleased" meta that projects what could eventually be available in the future but is not nearly as "certain" a guess as the former Pokébank meta? Obviously, until Pokébank goes live, neither is a "real" metagame, but a metagame that predicts what mons will be like after Pokébank's launch has a very different niche from a DW-like meta with things that wouldn't even be released with Pokébank.

If having both a "Pokébank meta" and an "Unreleased meta" at the same time is out of the question, is implementing a parallel DW meta in the cards after Pokébank goes live and the Pokébank meta presumably becomes standard OU (to avoid having more than one speculative Pokébank-like metagame)?

 

[kokoloko]

I asked for this on IRC before but was largely ignored, but yeah I'm with blarajan--my vote goes for allowing only XY items.

suck it talonbird

 

[tennisace]

If you can't prove it exists in-game then there's no reason to allow stuff. We didn't allow Berzerk Gene in DW because "it existed in GSC".

 

[haunter]

If it's confirmed that B/W items won't be transferable to X/Y via Pokebank, then we should only allow items obtainable in X/Y. As for the tier name, I like Pokébank.

 

[Theorymon]

Personally, I don't think the unobtainable items and hidden abilities should be allowed in Pokébank. Pokébank is a thing in just under 7 weeks, so I think we should strive to be as accurate as we can possibly can be for what is pretty much "the metagames of the near future". If we allow stuff like Custap and Soul Dew (as much as I really want them), we won't have that accuracy, so Pokébank will end up being even more of a shock when it's actually released!

That being said, once Pokébank is out and we got all the info related to that, I wouldn't mind setting up an unreleased ladder for our metagames in the future. Hackers seem to actually be making progress, finding stuff like the Mega Lati twins and their items + the event mons. Personally, I'd love to tinker with that kind of stuff in Ubers! However, I'll admit that I'm a bit worried about the demand for an unreleased metagame this generation. I felt like part of the appeal of dream world was the sheer amount of stuff that gamefreak left unreleased in the coding, and a lot of that stuff took a while to get released! This time, with Pokébank and Friend Safari, a lot of Pokémon will have their hidden abilities on day 1 of Pokébank, so there could be a lot less of that "woah look at all this new stuff" factor that dream world brought.

So TL;DR: I would really like for ladders based off of unreleased stuff after Pokébank is out, and when we get info from hackers, BUT, I think we should only do that if we feel that the unreleased stuff will actually lead to the kind of demand dreamworld brought, and that will depend on the magnitude of the stuff the game is hiding from us.

 

[Antar]

My two cents:

Pokebank should be the new "Dream World." Leave the name--it's no more of a misnomer than "Dream World" was (many items / abilities were never released through the "Dream World").

When Pokebank comes online, add previous gen Pokes and moves to the regular ladders, which should be renamed "Standard," and leave Pokebank as the "everything is releaded" metas. Also, discontinue "Pokebank LC" (not a popular enough meta to justify splitting the playerbase). Have all the on-site focus be on the "Standard" tiers.

 

[RBG]

My own problem with that approach is that there will be very few Pokemon with unreleased abilities at that point, and I doubt it will be enough to support it's own metagame. The way I see it, we are in the "BW" stage of Gen VI, where there is a lot of unreleased stuff that makes people want to play Pokebank OU, but once Pokemon Bank comes out (the "BW2" stage of Gen VI) there will be little reason to use it (Adaptability Dragalge?, Sheer Force Feraligatr) that it will fall to BW2 levels of Dream World usage.

 

[kokoloko]

I was never a fan of the Dream World tier(s) in the first place but keeping a Dream World-like metagame once Pokebank would be even worse imo.

For one, there's the very important difference that Dream World was meant to be a meta that included everything that was programmed into the game--crucial difference here being that we have no idea what is programmed into XY until someone willing to share hacks the game.

Now from a more practical standpoint... the metagame differences would be so minor that it's not even worth doing in the first place. It's quite literally just missing items (and like 2 relevant hidden abilities); not many, at that.

 

[Antar]

What items are missing besides gems and Soul Dew (which it seems possible is in the game somewhere via a Lati@s-triggered event)? Gems don't have a huge effect in the meta, so I agree that if it's just that, not worth making a separate tier.

One further thing is unreleased Pokemon / megas, assuming someone with the ability to hack ever releases the stats.

Depending on how many megas are still unreleased, that *might* be enough to justify a tier, but otherwise you're probably right, and as of now, that's all still pretty hypothetical.

Btw, how do we know the Hidden Abilities for Pokemon whose HAs aren't yet available (RBG mentioned Adaptability Adaptability Dragalge)?

Edit: One more thing -- I wonder if the new Global Link will release anything new...

 

[RBG]

They've been seen through the Battle Maison and Battle Institute.

Edit: I think Custap Berry is missing which is actually useful.

 

[Hugendugen]

Consensus appears to be that we should not include items (eg. Soul Dew, Genesect's Drives, non-Normal Gems, Custap Berry) or abilities (eg. Zapdos Lightningrod, Chandelure Shadow Tag, Feraligatr Sheer Force) that are unlikely to be available once Pokebank comes out. Two that haven't been brought up are the DNA Splicer (Kyu-White formes) and Gracedia (Skymin). These aren't needed as hold items, but they're needed to activate the forme. It is unclear whether or not these formes will revert over Pokebank, but it is likely that they will, since they've always done so when trading normally.

Should those forms also be removed from the Pokebank metagames? I lean towards yes, but that one is a little more tricky since it hasn't been explicitly stated whether or not the formes will be transferable.

 

[RBG]

The Drives, DNA Splicer, Gracadia's Flower, and Reversing Glass are all hinted at being given to you by various NPCs throughout the game.

 

[Antar]

Gracedia (Skymin)

Minor nitpick: I can almost 100% guarantee that Gracedia is in the game. A woman in one of the later towns (possibly Kiloude, possibly inside a Pokemon center) has some flavor text about Shaymin and gratitude. She will almost certainly give you the flower.

(Ninja'd)

We still have the Zarel's "Issue 2" about what to call it. I don't think it should be called "Pokebank" any more than we called the standard Gen V tier "Pokeshift" or "PokeTransfer." It should just be called "Standard."

 

[Hugendugen]

The question is then whether those hints are enough to include them. If we're going for "what is most likely to be available once Pokebank is released" then that's probably a yes.

Antar the thing is that it isn't Standard until Pokebank is released. We already have OU, Ubers, etc. for the mons that are available currently. Those are technically "Standard" until Pokebank is released and what is currently "Pokebank" becomes "Standard".

 

[kokoloko]

I would say no tbh. I'd rather make as few assumptions as possible about this (and I say as few as possible as opposed to none only because there's the possibility of other unknown Base Stat changes).

I think we should strive for Pokebank to be the standard as soon as Pokebank is released. Literally just erase the pre-bank ladders and then business as usual.

 

[Antar]

Antar the thing is that it isn't Standard until Pokebank is released. We already have OU, Ubers, etc. for the mons that are available currently. Those are technically "Standard" until Pokebank is released and what is currently "Pokebank" becomes "Standard".

Considering we're but a month and a half away from Pokebank's release, I don't see why we don't just call it Standard now and call the Pokebank-less tiers something else ("XY" OU/Ubers/Doubles/LC perhaps?).

I've got a horse in this race, as for stats compilation, continuity in naming vastly simplifies my work. If the consensus is that the Pokebank tier will simply be renamed "Standard" as soon as the Transporter is released (with no changes to the tier besides possibly adding an item or two), then please let's start calling it "Standard" as soon as possible.

The counter-argument is that "Standard" tiers should only implement what is currently legal, and if the Transporter were being released in six months, then fine, I'd agree. But a month and a half is not long enough to cultivate a set of metagames, and we should instead be giving all the focus we can to developing what will be our Standard tiers. This focus is best achieved by having players on the sims see what are the "Pokebank" tiers as the "Standard" tiers and relegating the previous-gen-mons metas to mere side-shows.

 

[Aldaron]

I was honestly holding Hugen's perspective...but Antar is convincing me...

I have nothing else to add.