Pokémon Malamar

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So then what about a setup mon similar to a weather setup? Trick Room and Baton pass or U-Turn come to mind... would this be plausible?
Again. Bulky Malamar might work. But forget about a raw sweeper with no speed boost from teamates.

If someone baton pass DD to him, then nightmare might happen. But tbqh, if I run DD-passer, I would love to pass it to my Excadrill, my Mamoswine, my Dragonite etc ... There are much more physical sweepers who are stronger than him.

If he manages to Baton Pass to his teamates, then it's totally fine. But at least he must have that stats boost first. It's really hard to do that you know. Unlike Espeon in BW2 OU, if the opponent does not have Bug-type or Ghost-type moves from the likes of Scizor or Gengar, then preventing an Espeon from seting up and baton pass is hard after 1 or 2 CM. However this Malamar has no resistance and his Special stats are also average. Superpower only boosted his Defense which is already quite good, but then leave him open to Special attacks.

Let's say you want to setup with him.
1st turn (go 2nd): Trick Room
2nd turn (go 1st): Superpower (to get the boost)
3rd turn (go 1st): Baton Pass

See the problem? You are going to eat 2 STAB from a sweeper before you can get the job done. And the next problem is, now your sweeper must be something that is slow and works fine in the Trick Room with lots of coverages, or else it's going to be walled by the like of Gliscor for example. There are too many conditions and flaws in this strats that make it unreliable in OU environment.
 
I can vouch for a Scarf set. It's a good cleanup crew. You get locked into Superpower (usually), but if you're cleaning up, that's rarely a problem, especially with the stat boosts. Give it its 3 standard attacks along with Switcheroo and it's a solid set
 
I can vouch for a Scarf set. It's a good cleanup crew. You get locked into Superpower (usually), but if you're cleaning up, that's rarely a problem, especially with the stat boosts. Give it its 3 standard attacks along with Switcheroo and it's a solid set
Fighting is resisted by 5 types and ghost is immune to it. Getting locked into superpower is pretty bad, even after a couple of boosts, you fail to deal too much damage with an un-STABed superpower.
 
Fighting is resisted by 5 types and ghost is immune to it. Getting locked into superpower is pretty bad, even after a couple of boosts, you fail to deal too much damage with an un-STABed superpower.
You keep it for late game after its checks are gone
 
You keep it for late game after its checks are gone
The problem is that it has so many checks. And there are tons of better late game sweepers out there, why go for choice scarfed Malamar of all things?

Even Trick room Malamar can sweep better than scarf Malamar late game IMO.
 
The problem is that it has so many checks. And there are tons of better late game sweepers out there, why go for choice scarfed Malamar of all things?
Maybe. Who specifically did you have in mind? Does not having Switcheroo matter for them? Also Malamar might end up dropping to UU regardless
 
Maybe. Who specifically did you have in mind? Does not having Switcheroo matter for them? Also Malamar might end up dropping to UU regardless
Well, Malamar and similar late game Scarfed cleanup 'mons have to contend with Talonflame for the spot, as he's one of the best late game cleanup Pokemon to date, in my opinion. It's hard to compete with +1p Brave Birds. However, I have seen Malamar do a ton of work with a scarf late game, so it's not like it's bad or anything.
 
anyway this poke is sooo bad. Even bulky set can be 2HKO by a STAB special move from a sweeper with high special attack. Superpower only raises defense which is really useless, his speed sucks so hard.

I think we can close the idea of him being in OU now. By the way, Scarfed one after being checked is useless in this metagame full of ghost type and fairies -_-
 
anyway this poke is sooo bad. Even bulky set can be 2HKO by a STAB special move from a sweeper with high special attack. Superpower only raises defense which is really useless, his speed sucks so hard.

I think we can close the idea of him being in OU now. By the way, Scarfed one after being checked is useless in this metagame full of ghost type and fairies -_-
What about a set with 252hp/252atk and assault vest? Hell, even 252hp/252spdef and assault vest, using Superpower to get attack and defense.
 
anyway this poke is sooo bad. Even bulky set can be 2HKO by a STAB special move from a sweeper with high special attack. Superpower only raises defense which is really useless, his speed sucks so hard.

I think we can close the idea of him being in OU now. By the way, Scarfed one after being checked is useless in this metagame full of ghost type and fairies -_-
I got really upset with how bad he is. Malamar is one of my favorite new pokes flavor wise :(
 
What about a set with 252hp/252atk and assault vest? Hell, even 252hp/252spdef and assault vest, using Superpower to get attack and defense.
Assault Vest is designed practically for bulky pokemons, or we can say a wall if you want. Even though, lots of waller would still prefer Leftovers over Assault Vest because of the pure regeneration is too good to ignore.

Malamar is not a bulky pokemons, and it does not possess any single thing to make it a wall. So really just forget about the idea. If you really want it, here some analysis.
+ 252 HP/ 252 ATK and only a 50% boosted on a 75 base Sp.Def leave you wide open to any kind of attacks, even Special ones. Remember, Defense and Special Defense raise your effective HP a lot while HP EVs only increase your raw HP. Any special STAB from a special sweeper would at most 2HKO this set, and I doubt that it can eat any banded physical attack without being 1HKO.
+ 252 HP/ 252 Sp.Def and Assault Vest, now you are trying to make it a special wall but this wall can only attack with a base attack of 92, no EVs, no band, no LO. To be honest, 1 burn or 1 toxic and that's it. I don't even want to talk about phasers and physical wall like Avalugg or Gourgeist-Super which in reality are hard-counters to this guy. Any Flying type pokemon is safe to switch in to this mon and start setting up, Roost off the damage and finish you off.

The worst part is that, you can't even have Toxic or Trick Room in your moveset because you are carrying an Assault Vest. So please. No.

The only set I think it might work in OU is Bulky Leftovers 252HP/252SpD/4Def - 0 IV Spe with Trick Room is a must in turn 1. Then you can start Superpower/Night Slash/Psycho Cut your way through. But still, it's too vulnerable to status-inflicters and physical walls.

Sorry for double post but I have not mentioned a 4x STAB Bug-type from the like of Scizor or Volcarona. And yeah no matter how Bulky you are, a Moonblast is the end for this Pokemon.
 
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Assault Vest is designed practically for bulky pokemons, or we can say a wall if you want. Even though, lots of waller would still prefer Leftovers over Assault Vest because of the pure regeneration is too good to ignore.

Malamar is not a bulky pokemons, and it does not possess any single thing to make it a wall. So really just forget about the idea. If you really want it, here some analysis.
+ 252 HP/ 252 ATK and only a 50% boosted on a 75 base Sp.Def leave you wide open to any kind of attacks, even Special ones. Remember, Defense and Special Defense raise your effective HP a lot while HP EVs only increase your raw HP. Any special STAB from a special sweeper would at most 2HKO this set, and I doubt that it can eat any banded physical attack without being 1HKO.
+ 252 HP/ 252 Sp.Def and Assault Vest, now you are trying to make it a special wall but this wall can only attack with a base attack of 92, no EVs, no band, no LO. To be honest, 1 burn or 1 toxic and that's it. I don't even want to talk about phasers and physical wall like Avalugg or Gourgeist-Super which in reality are hard-counters to this guy. Any Flying type pokemon is safe to switch in to this mon and start setting up, Roost off the damage and finish you off.
You're isolating the numbers too hard, obviously no set is going to work without a little bit of planning or setup, that's how this game works. Obviously Malamar is going to need help while performing his job, but that's what the other five pokemon on the team are for. As such, he'll need help from hazards, such as Stealth Rocks, to lower the opponent's HP into 1-2 shot ranges for his Superpower to finish off and maybe even Sticky Web to allow him to outspeed some things. Also, softening up the opposing team is a good idea for any of Malamar's sets really, but with an Assault Vest set you can afford to take a hit or two if need be, hence the usage of AV.

Also, I believe that AV was introduced for more than just ramping up a walls defenses, it can be used to give artificial bulk to pokemon that would otherwise be quite fragile, like Malamar, turning OHKO's into 2HKO's and 2HKO's into 3HKO's, and so forth.


Sorry for double post but I have not mentioned a 4x STAB Bug-type from the like of Scizor or Volcarona. And yeah no matter how Bulky you are, a Moonblast is the end for this Pokemon.
Well obviously, but the same can be said for other pokemon. If Scizor takes a Fire attack, he's dead, no question, but that's why you can switch out in this game. Like I said, you're isolating Malamar too hard, making it seem like he has to deal with every threat in the game by himself, but that's simply not true. If one was to use Malamar, you'd have to take appropriate measures to ensure his safety and ensure at least a 1:1 exchange for it's KO.
 
You're isolating the numbers too hard, obviously no set is going to work without a little bit of planning or setup, that's how this game works. Obviously Malamar is going to need help while performing his job, but that's what the other five pokemon on the team are for. As such, he'll need help from hazards, such as Stealth Rocks, to lower the opponent's HP into 1-2 shot ranges for his Superpower to finish off and maybe even Sticky Web to allow him to outspeed some things. Also, softening up the opposing team is a good idea for any of Malamar's sets really, but with an Assault Vest set you can afford to take a hit or two if need be, hence the usage of AV.

Also, I believe that AV was introduced for more than just ramping up a walls defenses, it can be used to give artificial bulk to pokemon that would otherwise be quite fragile, like Malamar, turning OHKO's into 2HKO's and 2HKO's into 3HKO's, and so forth.




Well obviously, but the same can be said for other pokemon. If Scizor takes a Fire attack, he's dead, no question, but that's why you can switch out in this game. Like I said, you're isolating Malamar too hard, making it seem like he has to deal with every threat in the game by himself, but that's simply not true. If one was to use Malamar, you'd have to take appropriate measures to ensure his safety and ensure at least a 1:1 exchange for it's KO.
It's not because I isolates him, it's the Pokemon who makes itself being isolated like that.

No resistance. Again. Without any stats boost, how much damage can this thing do without a Band? There are not many Pokemons who are afraid of this Malamar without boosting you know. I have met him sometimes before, and a Bulky Set is worth 2 flamethrower from my Charizard Y, and 2 TBolt from my Specs Magnezone. The set which invests in attack can survive 1 only. Always a 1HKO.

How can you calculate for a pokemon which is almost always 1HKO or 2HKO by ALMOST-ANY-MOVES-CARRIED-BY-A-SWEEPER? And the worst part is he cannot do the same thing back. 2HKO from a Malamar without super effectiveness is something which is really luxurious for me to see, because it rarely happens.

And your example about Scizor taking a Fire attack is quite irrelevant here. Malamar's Superpower, which is the main reason why he is being discussed in the first place with his Contrary, is not effective against Fairies which there are a tons out there (Klefki, Sylveon, Azumarill) and is immuned by Ghost. I remember someone said that if he could sum up this metagame in 2 words, he would go with "priorities" and "ghost". What the hell does he do when the meta-game is already against him? Being 4x weak to U-turn and I think every U-turn users out there in OU is faster than him, is the end for this Pokemon. Play Rough Azumarill outspeed this Malamar, I don't even need to mention Sylveon. While Scizor can safely dodge a lot of threats using his U-turn, this one cannot since he is too slow.

TL;DR: His stats are too low for a sweeper. Sacrificing EVs and put them in Speed makes him 1HKO to almost anything therefore he can only accept that base 73 speed. He is outspeed by so many other threats. He is resisted to NOTHING. He needs too many turns to setup and he is not reliable at all.

Here are some stats for you to see how weak it is without boost in the first turn (because there is probably no 2nd turn for this Malamar):

Malamar Adamant Assault Vest:

Vs. Banded Scizor: 252+ Atk (custom) Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 113-134 (32.94 - 39.06%) -- 99.93% chance to 3HKO
Vs. SD Breloom: 252+ Atk (custom) Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 136-161 (51.9 - 61.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs. Scarfed Rotom-W (not even Bulky Set): 252+ Atk (custom) Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 107-127 (44.21 - 52.47%) -- 19.92% chance to 2HKO
Vs. Spec Magnezone: 252+ Atk (custom) Superpower vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 202-238 (62.34 - 73.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def (custom): 157-186 (45.5 - 53.91%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def (custom): 378-447 (109.56 - 129.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD (custom): 186-219 (53.91 - 63.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And remember that he always goes second with this kind of EVs spread so yeah.
 
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AccidentalGreed

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Yeah, let's be honest here. Been holding in for a while because i didnt wanna ruin the "Malamar is OU omg" party flow, but lately the thread's been swimming with really impractical ideas and expectations.

Conceptually- and flavor-wise, Malamar is a pretty cool little thing, but competitively it's just really lacking. To echo what others have been saying and to make things clear, Malamar isn't that great as people make it out to be because:
  • Its lack of good natural bulk, in combination with its relatively average defensive typing (which doesn't give it many resistances, and instead many neutralities), won't allow it to live very long. It's obligated to invest in bulk, and even then, it comes under fire from strong hits more often than not because it can't wall mostly ANYTHING, especially if the opponent is specially oriented. Even strong physical attacker hit hard against +1 or + 2 Malamar.
  • It's lack of actual natural power. Yes, while this can be fixed with Superpower, it takes a long time to actually do so in real time, and initially, Superpower and the other attacks won't even hit hard. For crying out loud, its Attack is barely above 90, which isn't even much at +1 or +2.
  • Its low speed prevents it from practically doing much. If it had higher speed, the average bulk would be a significantly lesser issue, but for now, Malamar has to deal with the fact that it will take heavy attacks most of the time before it can even act. I've also heard people say it benefits from being hit by Sticky Web, which is moot considering Malamar NEVER invests in Speed, and thus won't realistically outrun that much after +1 either. Additionally for you Topsy-Turvy fetishists, it's not fast enough to reverse boosts from common fast sweepers before taking heavy damage or getting OHKO'd beforehand.

TL;DR Malamar is quite frankly very horrible in standard play mainly due to its average stats, which prevent it from making any actual effective impact against typical good teams. In real time, all it'll do is fire off one predictable Superpower, maybe throw out another attack or two, then struggle/die because it can't handle the heat from offense, or get burned easily from Will-o-Wisp, get walled because its coverage/power isn't that good even after a few boosts, etc.

If it had higher stats, I'd give it some credit, but right now I really think lately you guys are giving it too much.
 
Contrary Superpower would be a lot more promising with Sucker Punch.
It's a real shame. You're probably better off using Spinda for Contrary abuse.
But I could see Malamar being a Trick Room supporter somewhere with a 'fast' Destiny Bond like Bannete.
 
I've been running Substitute / Topsy-Turvy / Superpower / Night Slash and it works surprisingly well. Substitute takes nice advantage of the defensive buffs, making it harder to break and easier to spread damage... Light Screen also works but it doesn't seem as practical to me. Also, Topsy-Turvy is great for fucking over common boosting moves like Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and Dragon Dance (a substitute up makes this less risky).

What's the recommended EV spread for this thing?
I've been using Adamant with 32 HP / 252 Atk / 184 SDef / 40 Spd

Nice HP value for Leftovers + its Sub, Max Attack, enough speed to outrun 4 Spd Heatran, and the rest pumped into Special Defense. I'm sure it is horribly inefficient, so is there a better one to use? :O
 
Hm, from my point of view Malamar is supposed to work like that:
Both sides got baton passers (let's say SD or ID, Scolipede for Malamar).
Both got for their sweeper, Malamar uses Topsey Turvey and renders his enemy useless - upon the swap in he further increases his power through contrary Superpower.

That's why I'ld never suggest any choice item on him.

It's a fragile strategy, but the only one I can see working for him.
 
I've been running Substitute / Topsy-Turvy / Superpower / Night Slash and it works surprisingly well. Substitute takes nice advantage of the defensive buffs, making it harder to break and easier to spread damage... Light Screen also works but it doesn't seem as practical to me. Also, Topsy-Turvy is great for fucking over common boosting moves like Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and Dragon Dance (a substitute up makes this less risky).

What's the recommended EV spread for this thing?
I've been using Adamant with 32 HP / 252 Atk / 184 SDef / 40 Spd

Nice HP value for Leftovers + its Sub, Max Attack, enough speed to outrun 4 Spd Heatran, and the rest pumped into Special Defense. I'm sure it is horribly inefficient, so is there a better one to use? :O
I am so surprised that this set works for you. How can you even put up a Substitute with such slow pokemon??? And you can't force anyone out of the field to get free turn to be honest.

Beside, his Sub is gonna be destroyed by any contact with that 32 HP. And you even put EVs into Speed just to hope to outrun a Heatran?!? This set is really bad ....
 
Meh, Mr. calamari over here might not make OU, but I feel he would do well in UU and might see some use in OU as well. The biggest issue I find is firing off that first superpower so you have usable defense/attack. That's why I usually lead with malamar. As the opponent sets up stealth rock or sticky web or something similar, I can substitute or just go for the superpower. Now that malamar has usable attack/defense he can just keep on firing off night slashes/superpowers until he dies. In lower ladder rankings I have sweeped teams straight with malamar, but in the least I usually will be able to KO their lead and do significant damage to the next poke with a +2 attack. I use defog on my team anyways so there isn't too much of a point of setting my own hazards up from the beginning.
 
I am so surprised that this set works for you. How can you even put up a Substitute with such slow pokemon??? And you can't force anyone out of the field to get free turn to be honest.

Beside, his Sub is gonna be destroyed by any contact with that 32 HP. And you even put EVs into Speed just to hope to outrun a Heatran?!? This set is really bad ....
Geez, no need to be rude... I even said the EV spread was bad. Instead of ripping it apart why not help make it not "really bad"?
 
Geez, no need to be rude... I even said the EV spread was bad. Instead of ripping it apart why not help make it not "really bad"?
I was surprised so my tone might be a little bit off. Sorry if that offended you by any means.

I cannot help to make it not "really bad", because from the very second I stepped into this debate about Malamar, he has really little to offer in the OU environment. The only suggestion I may offer to you is try to focus your EVs on 2 most important stats which are HP and SpD in my opinion since Malamar does not have any stats or type coverages. If you spread his EVs like that, then his stats will be even worse and no strategy could be applied.
 
I was surprised so my tone might be a little bit off. Sorry if that offended you by any means.

I cannot help to make it not "really bad", because from the very second I stepped into this debate about Malamar, he has really little to offer in the OU environment. The only suggestion I may offer to you is try to focus your EVs on 2 most important stats which are HP and SpD in my opinion since Malamar does not have any stats or type coverages. If you spread his EVs like that, then his stats will be even worse and no strategy could be applied.
Malamar is not OU by a long shot, but I never said he was OU, I was merely putting forward set ideas and whatnot.
 
Malamar is not OU by a long shot, but I never said he was OU, I was merely putting forward set ideas and whatnot.
You were putting set ideas, but the problem for a set is not how it functions, but how it serves you in a particular tier.

You did not say he was in OU, but you also did not say about him being in the other tier either. And if you read what I and the other have discussed since the beginning, we always talk about OU, about why he can't be in OU. I assumed you also suggested ideas about OU based on the context.

Most of the Pokemons who appear in 2 or more tiers have different sets and role in different tiers. Some are special like Aron Endeavour or Ditto. So try to be as specific as possible.
 
Can we pause for a moment to talk about Offical/VGC/Doubles?

Topsy Turvey is pretty much a Sword of Damascus for any stat based team; it's effect on the metagame will be stunning.
 
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