Move Stealth Rock

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Pretty sure those are banned because they enforce a predominately luck based game. Stealth Rock does not. It has nothing to do with "liking" it or not.
And Smogon doesn't like luck-based games. It has been discussed in the past. If double-team and whatever were REALLY a factor, we'd all be running Odor Sleuth Arcanines or No Guard Machamps, and Foresight. There are moves and abilities that counter evasion you know.

But it has been decided that we don't like Evasion, and it has also been decided that we like Stealth Rocks. There isn't much else beyond that. If you don't like Stealth Rocks, run Defog or Rapid Spin. If you don't like Evasion, run Foresight, Odor Sleuth, No Guard, or Haze.
 
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The problem with that analogy is that both players are not better off if they do not use stealth rock. Some teams appreciate stealth rock more than others. Even if we arrived at a Nash equilibrium where each team was perfectly balanced against the other and each player had perfect knowledge of the other player's tendencies, no benefit would exist for both players in a steathrockless game. How can it? Because Pokemon battles are zero sum games, any mechanic added to the game will neither give an advantage nor disadvantage to both players. The utility players get out of stealth rock use in the game varies from player to player. Some players like it in the game, some do not, so you can't really argue on that basis, either.
 
But skarmory gets Stealth Rock, and Taunt, that's awesome, since he can set up rocks, and taunt the defog...
Anyway, anyone can tell me if skarm gets stealth rock as egg move in this gen without the pokebank, and how he gets it?
No he cant unfortunately, he is the only pokemon in the flying egg group that learns it by breeding
 
Still the best move in the game to my chargrin. Defog may have some large legacy distribution (of mostly mediocre mons) , but its legality with essential movesets and abilities is making it a pain to fit into a team without always going Crobat . Even then any good opponent is gonna keep the pressure on so you never want to waste a turn to simply clear the field. All will be tolerated if posion heal gliscor is legal with defog at some point.
 
But skarmory gets Stealth Rock, and Taunt, that's awesome, since he can set up rocks, and taunt the defog...
Anyway, anyone can tell me if skarm gets stealth rock as egg move in this gen without the pokebank, and how he gets it?
I had to go all the way back to my Platinum game to get a SR/Taunt/Defog Skarmory, but I think when pokebank comes out, it'll be worth it.

Other notable defoggers I'm bringing up are Scizor, Crobat, Dragonite, Aerodactyl, Lugia, Ninjask, Lati@s, Togekiss, and Gliscor, just so I can find out which works best for me)
 
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OK, it is pointless to argue about whether SR should be ban or not.
The point is how to "fix" this skill so it's not so overpowered.

There're 3 separate ways to "solve" the problem: (choosing one of the following is good enough)
1. Make Stealth Rock lasts for a duration of turns only. (5 turns usually).
2. Make Stealth Rock acts as weather that affects the entire field and last for 5 turns also.
(Meaning your own Pokemon will get hurt by stealth rock too. However, because it is a weather, other weather can cancel it too.)
Increase the percentage of damage so it's not outclass by sandstorm. (1/4 normal, 1/3 2x weak, 1/2 4x weak)
3. Change the percentage of damage. (1/8 normal, 3/16 if 2x weak, 1/4 if 4x weak)

In my opinion probably the 3rd one is the "safest" way to fix the stealth rock issue.
Other 2 options may impact the game-play too much.
 
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Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
OK, it is pointless to argue about whether SR should be ban or not.
The point is how to "fix" this skill so it's not so overpowered.

There're 3 separate ways to "solve" the problem: (choosing one of the following is good enough)
1. Make Stealth Rock lasts for a duration of turns only. (5 turns usually).
2. Make Stealth Rock acts as weather that affects the entire field and last for 5 turns also.
(Meaning your own Pokemon will get hurt by stealth rock too. However, because it is a weather, other weather can cancel it too.)
Increase the percentage of damage so it's not outclass by sandstorm. (1/4 normal, 1/3 2x weak, 1/2 4x weak)
3. Change the percentage of damage. (1/8 normal, 3/16 if 2x weak, 1/4 if 4x weak)

In my opinion probably the 3rd one is the "safest" way to fix the stealth rock issue.
Other 2 options may impact the game-play too much.
unless you miraculously happen to be game freak, you can't change the game itself
 
OK, it is pointless to argue about whether SR should be ban or not.
The point is how to "fix" this skill so it's not so overpowered.

There're 3 separate ways to "solve" the problem: (choosing one of the following is good enough)
1. Make Stealth Rock lasts for a duration of turns only. (5 turns usually).
2. Make Stealth Rock acts as weather that affects the entire field and last for 5 turns also.
(Meaning your own Pokemon will get hurt by stealth rock too. However, because it is a weather, other weather can cancel it too.)
Increase the percentage of damage so it's not outclass by sandstorm. (1/4 normal, 1/3 2x weak, 1/2 4x weak)
3. Change the percentage of damage. (1/8 normal, 3/16 if 2x weak, 1/4 if 4x weak)

In my opinion probably the 3rd one is the "safest" way to fix the stealth rock issue.
Other 2 options may impact the game-play too much.
Then what about Volcarona and Multiscale Dragonite then with suggestion 3? but typically if that did already happened before 6th gen came out, 4x weak to SR pokemon got technically buffed but Volcarona can be a worry.
 
Then what about Volcarona and Multiscale Dragonite then with suggestion 3? but typically if that did already happened before 6th gen came out, 4x weak to SR pokemon got technically buffed but Volcarona can be a worry.
both dragonite and volcarona can be countered without rocks has was seen on the stealthrock less ladder that was up
 

Okuu

Blame [me] for Global Warming!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnus
Most players are going to build balanced-type teams, which will usually include just about as many pokemon that happen to be weak to Rock as they will pokemon that happen to resist Rock. Even if you use Stealth Rock early in the game, where you'll be able to get 5+ hits out of it, that turn that you used it was a turn that you could have used to instead set up a Baton Pass into a game-changing sweep, or inflict an opponent with a status, or outright damage/ko an opposing 'mon. I've seen too many players elect to set up Stealth Rock on the same turn that I have a Cloyster Shell Smash, and then I proceed to wipe out 2-6 of their mons with it. I've seen too many players let me get away with obvious Volt Switches / U-Turns into counters and set-up mons of my own because they wanted to bring out those Sneaky Pebbles, even though many of them could have instead paralyzed / burned / otherwise incapacitated the Volt Switcher / Switchee.

Every move has some situational merit. Volt Switch is an amazing move for dealing damage and maintaining momentum, but it's completely useless against a Ground type. Will-O-Wisp is a fantastic move for crippling walls and Physical attackers, but it is heavily outclassed by other status moves when dealing with speedy Special Sweepers. Sticky Web is Speed-Tier redefinition in a can, but is entirely ignored by Flying types / Levitate users, has no 'immediate effects', and doesn't do much to hinder already-slow attackers.

Just as all of these commonly-viewed-as-awesome moves aren't always the best choice to use, Stealth Rock fits that mold as well. Even though it hits Bug/Fire/Flying/Ice types for SE damage, it's also resisted by Fighting/Ground/Steel types. It doesn't pose as an immediate threat, nor is it a response to deal with an immediate threat. However, its ability to break Focus Sash / Sturdy / Multiscale, discourage repeated switches, turn potential a few potential 2HKOs into OHKOs, and to single-handedly pick off any critically weakened opponents (in conjunction with threatening switches of your own and phazing strategies) not only helps to mitigate those negative factors, but makes it a fantastic move to use when you're not dealing with an immediate threat -and- when you know that using it will hinder an opponent's strategy.

Stealth Rock can be a game changing move, yes. I've had Pokemon survive attacks with <10 HP, switched them out, and then watched as the opponent threw out Rocks later, effectively killing that survivor. However, just about any move can be a game changer. Having your Ferrothorn smack a Tyranitar with Gyro Ball can weaken it to the point that it can no longer be an effective Special sponge against your team, and open up a clear path of victory for your Special Sweeper. Letting your Tyranitar Dragon Dance against a hapless opponent will make it all the more frightening when the opponent's 'check' switch-in suddenly finds itself outsped and in danger of being ko'ed itself. A Whirlwind from your Skarmory can potentially ruin an opponent's set-up and leave them in a disadvantageous situation.

Simply put, Stealth Rock is a good move. However, it is not the best move, nor is it an over-powered move. Its inability to directly handle the 'mon in front of makes it a great liability to use, and even playing skillfully won't always completely erase the disadvantage incurred by both expending a moveslot on it, as well as expending a turn to use it.

-addition-

But, if you want to talk about actually altering Stealth Rock, I'd personally love to see it as a move that functions akin to Spikes, but consumed upon triggering. Say, using it once gives it 2 charges (4 maximum), and each time an opponent switches a new mon in, it gets damaged and a single charge of SR is expended. This can lead to fun situations like opponents repeatedly switching resistant stuff in after the SR user is KO'ed to burn away those remaining charges while keeping a Volcarona or a Dragonite healthy.
 
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Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Most players are going to build balanced-type teams, which will usually include just about as many pokemon that happen to be weak to Rock as they will pokemon that happen to resist Rock. Even if you use Stealth Rock early in the game, where you'll be able to get 5+ hits out of it, that turn that you used it was a turn that you could have used to instead set up a Baton Pass into a game-changing sweep, or inflict an opponent with a status, or outright damage/ko an opposing 'mon. I've seen too many players elect to set up Stealth Rock on the same turn that I have a Cloyster Shell Smash, and then I proceed to wipe out 2-6 of their mons with it. I've seen too many players let me get away with obvious Volt Switches / U-Turns into counters and set-up mons of my own because they wanted to bring out those Sneaky Pebbles, even though many of them could have instead paralyzed / burned / otherwise incapacitated the Volt Switcher / Switchee.

Every move has some situational merit. 1) Volt Switch is an amazing move for dealing damage and maintaining momentum, but it's completely useless against a Ground type. Will-O-Wisp is a fantastic move for crippling walls and Physical attackers, but it is heavily outclassed by other status moves when dealing with speedy Special Sweepers. Sticky Web is Speed-Tier redefinition in a can, but is entirely ignored by Flying types / Levitate users, has no 'immediate effects', and doesn't do much to hinder already-slow attackers.

2) Just as all of these commonly-viewed-as-awesome moves aren't always the best choice to use, Stealth Rock fits that mold as well. Even though it hits Bug/Fire/Flying/Ice types for SE damage, it's also resisted by Fighting/Ground/Steel types. It doesn't pose as an immediate threat, nor is it a response to deal with an immediate threat. However, its ability to break Focus Sash / Sturdy / Multiscale, discourage repeated switches, turn potential a few potential 2HKOs into OHKOs, and to single-handedly pick off any critically weakened opponents (in conjunction with threatening switches of your own and phazing strategies) not only helps to mitigate those negative factors, but makes it a fantastic move to use when you're not dealing with an immediate threat -and- when you know that using it will hinder an opponent's strategy.

3) Stealth Rock can be a game changing move, yes. I've had Pokemon survive attacks with <10 HP, switched them out, and then watched as the opponent threw out Rocks later, effectively killing that survivor. However, just about any move can be a game changer. Having your Ferrothorn smack a Tyranitar with Gyro Ball can weaken it to the point that it can no longer be an effective Special sponge against your team, and open up a clear path of victory for your Special Sweeper. Letting your Tyranitar Dragon Dance against a hapless opponent will make it all the more frightening when the opponent's 'check' switch-in suddenly finds itself outsped and in danger of being ko'ed itself. A Whirlwind from your Skarmory can potentially ruin an opponent's set-up and leave them in a disadvantageous situation.

4) Simply put, Stealth Rock is a good move. However, it is not the best move, nor is it an over-powered move. Its inability to directly handle the 'mon in front of makes it a great liability to use, and even playing skillfully won't always completely erase the disadvantage incurred by both expending a moveslot on it, as well as expending a turn to use it.
Honestly, I think you're greatly understating how good Stealth Rock is. In reference to the first paragraph of your post, of course there are situations where setting up SR is a bad idea. Doing so against a shell smashing cloyster is one of those, and I don't think most people are dim enough to do that if they don't have an effective way of immediately dealing with a +2 cloyster, so, imo, it's a poor example of SR's opportunity cost.

1) Once Stealth Rock is in play, it no longer has "situational" merit. Everything is hit by it. There are a number of pokemon that resist it, but even that small amount of damage can significantly mitigate their longevity over the course of a match. The turn required to set it up is worth the opportunity cost in a great majority of scenarios that don't involve you getting utterly pooped on because of it. You might argue that the fact that SR can be rapid spinned/defogged away is its "situational merit," but the opportunity cost of trying to remove hazards is often far greater than setting them up. With rapid spin, you have to worry about getting spin blocked, which is made easier by the fact that starmie, tentacruel, and forretress have all taken a big hit this gen along with the introduction of aegislash, and with defog, you lose your own hazards in the process, so unless you have a crippling weakness to SR, it may not always even be worth it to try to remove them. The moves you listed do have situational merit. Stealth Rock does not.

2) Sure, SR isn't an "immediate threat" in the same way a +6/+6/+6 Espeon is, but it applies constant pressure and it has to always be taken into consideration. Stealth rock does indeed do all of those things you mentioned, which is a hell of a lot considering how absurdly low its general opportunity cost is (as long as you're not about to be up against a +4/+4/+4 cloyster with no way to deal with it, you're probably pretty safe to SR). Regarding "when you know that using it...strategy," the object of the game is to make your opponent lose all of their health before you do, so if you're losing free health every turn from an attack that requires one turn of set up and is disproportionately difficult to get rid of, the execution of your strategy has been hindered. Naturally, this isn't as true for some teams as others, but, strictly speaking, it's true across the board.

3) Suggesting that "because other moves can have a game-changing influence, just as SR can, SR is comparable to these moves in how generally effective it is," is misleading. String Shot can be game-changing. If specs latios at 20 health is your last pokemon and I only have a LO Zoroark at 1hp and I currently have a level 1 sash caterpie at full health in, you will lose the match from the string shot, but that doesn't mean that string shot is comparable in its effectiveness to anything else. Sure, it's an extreme example, but I think it points out well enough the problem with implying that Stealth Rock is no different than a well-timed fire blast vs skarmory or something similar.

4) It really depends on what your idea of "best move" is. I think "There's almost never a reason not to use it, and if you're not using it, you're team is no longer competitive" is about as close to "best move" as you can possibly get.
 
what about forretress?
Using two bug/steel pokemon on a bug team is just dumb. You're already in danger of losing to a team with lots of fire pokemon.

And any effective user of king's shield and protean will have no trouble dealing with Ninjask (though I'm assuming Greninja's already used protean before you switch in. A free attack on a dark type hazardous to Greninja's health)
Night Slash 2HKOs Aegislash. If you're running focus sash, Aegislash has to kill Ninjask in two shadow sneaks. If he swords dances, he loses, if he tries to king's shield (an 'effective use' of it means you have to out predict me), he gives me the opportunity to switch, baton pass a speedboost, or swords dance. Really, your opponent has no idea what Ninjask will do, so the correct decisions are to swords dance or to shadow sneak the Ninjask.

X-Scissor 2HKOs Greninja if he has used protean to a non SE type. X-Scissor 1HKO's Grenninja if it's SE. Ninjask outspeeds him before a speedboost unless he's using choice scarf.

Greninja and Aegislash can be reliably killed with X-Scissor and Night Slash if you've got a focus sash. If you don't have focus sash, because it's been broken by SR, you shouldn't have sent in Ninjask in the first place.

Swords Dance
X-Scissor
Night Slash
Baton Pass / Defog

This set is usable in OU as a lead or as a secondary lead or support of some sort. Maybe not the greatest lead, but with 252 atk, 252 spe you will kill common threats with one of those moves and be able to Defog screens/hazards. Almost everyone I've fought with it (out of like, 50+ battles with my team) has predicted my Ninjask to Sub/Protect/Swords Dance on the first turn he's in. No one has predicted a defog or a straight-up attack, so King's Shield is never a problem. Though even if I had the inkling that my opponent would try it, it's pretty easy to baton pass (or even attack Aegislash with -2 attack, you still do considerable damage even with the damage debuff and if he king shielded he will just try to swords dance anyway, letting you get off two attacks).

Defog has made it so that Ninjask is no longer a burden on your team. If you do use him and your opponent sets up SR it doesn't matter, because he can always just defog it away the turn after it's set up. His physical offense against common leads or MEvos like Zam, Tyranitar, Latios or Absol also means he's pretty versatile. He can't outright kill a lead Tyranitar, but he can weaken it for a revenge kill (with someone like Pinsir) and prevent SR.
 
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Okuu

Blame [me] for Global Warming!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnus
Setting up SR against a Shell Smashing Cloyster was a fairly extreme example. A real one, that's happened twice in under 30 battles, but an extreme one. The point I should be trying to illustrate here is that any turn that you spend setting up Stealth Rock is a turn that the opponent is going to take to -freely- gain advantage in some way. Whether that advantage be boosting up their stats, inflicting a status on your SR'er, performing clerical duties, eating a chunk out of your health, or even just switching into a more suitable 'mon. Assuming you're able to set it up when the opponent has all 6 of their 'mons alive, SR can be expected to eat away at least 12% of a team's total health, and even more if the opponent heavily relies on switching pokemon and/or uses a Rock-weak team composition. I could mention the likes of Rapid Spin and Defog as well, but the main reason for their popularity is specifically to remove Stealth Rock (and to a lesser extent, Sticky Web), so it's not entirely fair to credit that as a factor here.

And since I'm discounting spinning mechanics, then yes, the opponent's team will all be hit by them. They will all individually take somewhere between 3% and 50% damage each time they switch in, type depending. This amount of damage ranges from insignificant to crippling, and can very well affect the decision to switch a specific 'mon in or out. However, there are two extremes to this. Just as the mere presence of Stealth Rock can completely ruin a Charizard switch in, it completely fails to faze a Tyranitar switch in. Even though it can knock a Pokemon down from 2HKO range to OHKO range, that range is entirely dependent on which Pokemon are out at the time. If your current Pokemon can't capitalize on a potentially advantageous switch-in of an opponent, then that damage (no matter how significant) loses importance. Especially when, in retrospect, you might have had the opportunity to properly cripple/ko that specific Pokemon beforehand.

Stealth Rock is a player's way of trading off a chunk of immediate advantage for a slow return stream of advantage throughout the game. The opponent, unless they don't know what they are doing, is going to profit in some manner during that turn in which you Stealth Rock. But, as you said, the constant pressure that it applies can be worthwhile. It's just a matter of how well the opponent is able to capitalize on that turn. If they waste that turn to hit your Ferrothorn (example) with a Close Combat, then you're going to get almost immediate results back. If they use that turn to set up a Sticky Web, then you're going to have a harder time capitalizing on that potential 50% chunk you would take out of their Charizard when it now outspeeds the majority of your team. And if that Ferrothorn decides against hitting Cloyster with a Gyro Ball (and softening it up for a hypothetical Scizor later on), and allows that Cloyster to set up Shell Smash completely unhindered... well, you know.

Also, I don't want to jump on you for it, but you know that Stealth Rock doesn't drain health 'every turn', but on 'every switch'. I could have just ignored that, but it ties into another point I want to make: repeatedly switching is generally disadvantageous. Unless it's through Volt Switch / U-Turn / Parting Shot / Baton Pass, a switch gives your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want. You can capitalize on that by, say, switching a Sap Sipper into a predicted Grass attack or whatnot. But generally, a switch should only be used to mitigate an immediate threat, or to take advantage of the current field situation to set up. Stealth Rock serves to slightly punish that mentality, specifically so for frailer 'mons that were close to being OHKO'd in the first place. But you've heard it plenty of times by now: Bulky Priority Meta. Even if you personally view it differently, many people are seeing it that way. With so many 'mons getting access to blisteringly fast attacks, and so many other 'mons standing strong after several high powered attacks, Stealth Rock isn't as frightening as it used to be. Even if a Talonflame lost half of its HP switching in, it can still fire off a Priority Brave Bird or two. A Goodra isn't going to mind losing 12.5% of its HP when it could already survive multiple (Special) attacks from the get-go.

I actually somewhat figured that the use of a non-standard move (in this case, String Shot) would be used as a comparison in a reply. Yes, String Shot isn't too terrible (especially since it's buffed!), but your scenario involves expending an entire team slot on a sashed Caterpie. I know, people like the concept of 'Suicide Leads', whose sole purpose is to fire off Stealth Rocks, survive a hit, and die within a turn afterward. And with Stealth Rock, you get the option (an option, not -the- option) to permanently sacrifice a team slot in order to remove some potential effectiveness from the enemy's entire team. However, String Shot actually has a benefit over Stealth Rock: It can mitigate an immediate threat. If you've given up on your brave Caterpie, and allow it to use String Shot as its final move, it is actively affecting the opposing Latios in a direct fashion. You can then send in your Cloyster to avenge it, with the knowledge that your Icicle Spear now outspeeds and OHKOs that Latios. Using that one move can change the immediate pace of the game. The same can be said of just about any move in the game, in the right condition. It can not be said of Stealth Rock. It doesn't leave your field any stronger, nor your opponent's any weaker.

It's better to treat Stealth Rock like a weather-inducing move. It doesn't confer an immediate effect (ignoring the fact that some weathers can hypothetically be used to halve Water/Fire damage, boost Sp.Def, or kill a weakened mon at the end of the turn). However, if your team can take advantage of it, and the opponent's team is weak to the strategy surrounding it, then you can capitalize on it. Using a Prankster Copycat--> Roar Riolu with Rocks out against a Mono-Ice team that's somehow also fond of Volt Switch and Baton Pass would be an extreme example of this strategy working in your favor. Not having a single Phazing move while the opponent's team is half Steel types and the only Pokemon weak to SR has access to stat-boosting moves and Priority attacks on top of a powerful offensive spread would be a slightly less extreme example of this strategy not entirely working in your favor. And I've been mentioning the general case for a long while now. Those Sneaky Pebbles can indeed do damage, but it doesn't mean that you'll always be able to capitalize on it, unless you specifically build a team around doing so.

I admit to having a Stealth Rock user on my team. Specifically, it's on a Trickscarf Smeargle. However, I've only used SR twice with it, and have never once felt the need to prioritize using it. I've found that a big part of team building these days is to turn every team member into a threat for as many Pokemon as possible. To make the best attempt at removing 'safe switch ins'. To punish any Pokemon switching in, regardless of whether or not it was a 'counter' to it. Flying defiantly against this line of logic are Entry Hazards, which welcome all manner of threats with open arms, but attempt to discourage any -further- threats after that initial one.

I understand that Stealth Rock is a powerful move, and when used early and in conjunction with plays that 'force' an opponent to switch, it can have a devastating effect on a team. However, it's not a move that absolutely must be used in order to win. It alone doesn't solidify a victory any more than any other move that you would reasonably place on a Pokemon. I've displayed several ways that allowing an opponent a single turn of absolute freedom can turn your situation into a dire one, and I've explained that even if you can set up SR 'freely', it doesn't necessarily make the game any easier for you.
 
Curious to see if any discussion on suspecting SR would be done? It was too late last gen. Apart from the fact that it is a move, it has banworthy characteristics. Still most centralized aspect of OU, you think about SR before you think about dealing with Talonflame or Aegislash.
 
Rockless ladder last gen was mad fun because rocks were basically permanent. Now though, with defog and Excadrill, rocks are more like a temporary battle condition. Very good move, but far from OP.
 
Stealth rock is stealth rock, the only difference atm is fewer setters and better spinners and defog. Which I think is overall, a good thing. Last gen, it was almost impossible to get a spin off, the only offensive spinner was Starmie, the rest had practically no chance against a spinblocker, and even if they invested in offenses to do so, they usually occupied the defensive spot on your team, thus requiring defensive investment too glue your team together. Defog and Exca is extremely healthy for the meta, and although it is still preferable to still run non stealth rock weak pokes, it's a bit less of a burden, since deofg can't be stopped (and exca expanding the rooster of offensive spinners), meaning you can guarantee one stealth rock free switch, in most cases. And that might be all you need ;).
 
still the most centralizing move in the game.
but it's much more manageable now with defog.
it's now more like a 10 instead of a 11 on the centralizing scale.
 
Why is stealth rock being in question of being banned. Its perfectly legal, and its a healthy part of the meta game. For those of you complaining about it, learn to counter it, theres an entire strategy around it. If your team has weaknesses to things like Volcarona, or Talonflame, run stealth rocks. Its a healthy part of the meta game, and it will stay. No shortening of how long it lasts, or what damage it does, if you have a problem with it, put a defogger or a rapid spinner on your team, its here to stay. Stop whining and get used to it. You might as well ask us to make weather illegal last gen, its a part of the metagame, were here to play pokemon, not to nit pick the game until it plays so that we can personally win. (barring broken mons and mega stones (gengarite.) Stealth rock is a healthy part of the metagame, get over it. If you think Gengar was banned because of it's sweeping abilities, (i see that argument coming already) read the announcement. Or read my signiture, they say the same thing.
 
I know that this is more or less a worthless anecdote on my part, but I would like to say that my experience this generation is somewhat similar to Okuus in that Stealth Rock has an opportunity cost that cannot always be afforded. Team Preview has pretty much eradicated the DPP concept of "set up Stealth Rock first, do other things later". I have played many games where neither I nor my opponent was able to Stealth Rock until mid-to-late game, sometimes not even at all, because the momentum afforded by Volt Switch, U-Turn, smart switches, strong offensive openings, or using status moves on the switch-ins, was not worth forfeiting if it meant giving my opponent a free turn to set-up, or the opportunity to cripple an opposing threat was too good to forsake completely. Obviously the presence of hazards helps with all of that, like, a whole lot, but the window of opportunity for laying hazards may not even present itself until after a few Pokemon have been eliminated.

This is actually why Heatran is my favorite hazards setter:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Calm Nature
248 HP / 8 DEF / 252 SDEF
~ Roar
~ Stealth Rock
~ Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
~ Lava Plume / Fire Blast

Heatran makes a fantastic pivot, punishes common switch ins with your status move of choice, and can shuffle the opponent's team if you actually manage to drop pebbles onto the field. He is such a sexy volcano frog <3.

I'm not dumping on the significance of Stealth Rock - it's just that there are a number of factors in addition to team preview that make it less permanent and maybe even less efficient until so much time has passed.

Players now have access to a wide variety of Pokemon capable of removing Stealth Rock and other hazards from the field thanks to the Defog buff. Pokemon like Latios immediately threaten every hazard setter worth a damn while Pokemon like Mandibuzz are just great all around - hell, we even have Mold Breaker Excadrill, who fucks up a ton of Pokemon. We have way, way more options than we've had the past two generations and this is definitely something that should be considered when evaluating Stealth Rock.
 
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As far as the main purpose of this thread...I think a lot of people are actually discounting Tyrantrum to early. He does something many other SR setter do, which is be this huge looming threat for SR counters and Setters. Big Jaw gives him these huge opportunities by turning lesser thought moves into big stab damage.

Oh, you were gonna use skarmory/ferrothorn? Guess what? packing the stab Fire Fang. I will, without a doubt, 2HKO you and the only thing you can do is switch.
Trying the Magic bounce route? GG Stab Crunch on the predict or if you are the lead.
Were you going to defog? nope. I have Fire fang, Rock Wrecker to make you think twice.

Ever since using him, ive seen more silly plays (magic bouncers inc, leaving ferro, Skarmory, Fortress,etc in) than i can count. Tyrantum isn't a sweeper or a RU pokemon like people think. He's this serious lead pokemon with a bitching fur collar that makes teams make moves to avoid him. I honestly can not think of a dedicated lead that forces him out.

to the Side show.

SR brings more to this game than not having it. Without it, you have shit like Volcarona/Talonflame/Charizard X/Y just jumping in and sweeping the hell out of teams after set up from full health.

SR also brings this critical strategy that at the core breaks down to:

SR is free damage that:
1 I need to protect.
2. I need to stop the enemy from having.


Now that makes two things stand up most in this game. Ghost types. Pre Gen 6 it was actually a fairly weak offensive type, with its only saving grace being immunity to normal and fighting type moves. The second thing is Rapid spin. Rapid spin would be this incredibly crappy move that did nothing and took up a slot on pokes better occupied by other moves if it didn't exist. Certain pokemon would absolutely suck if they didn't have Rapid spin, wouldn't even be thought about.

SR also does something important for battles. \

It gives a major contestable objective. Without things like entry hazards or Walls, or Boosts, this game would just be " IM GONNA THROW A POKEMON AT YOU! ITS GONNA DEAL DAMAGE.". Instead, things like SR,Sticky Web, Spikes, Toxic Spikes give us contestable that we can fight over either having or denying. Walls give us pokemon to focus strategies on and break or try to maintain. Boosts make pokemon viable and also give us reasons to pack things like, taunt, encore etc. Even moves like Whirlwind,Roar and dragon tail lose their value without stuff like SR and Boosts. SR has done more for the game than any other entry hazard before it.

Do we lose some pokemon in the process? yeah. It's never good to see a new pokemon fall down the rabbit hole because it was weak to SR.

Yet we have a better meta game before it.

Oh, and one additional thing to say. Defog makes a lot of old pokes viable and stomps on entry hazards. It also has no counters. So if you don't want to run a SR poke, and a spinner, just have one defogger and go to town.
 
I would like to thank the certain users that did a fine job at derailing this thread from its intended purpose (you know who you are), and turning it into, I believe the phrase is: " a clusterfuck". Please do not do this within this thread, or in any other thread. This thread is to discuss the users of Stealth Rock in Generation 6, especially the users now and those after December 27th (when PokeBank is released). Consider this a general warning, if I catch users going off topic, and complaining that Stealth Rock is broken / needs to be banned / damage caps on Stealth Rock or whatever, then you will recieve an infraction. Please don't test my patience, and stick to the threads intended purpose please.

Have a nice day.
Clearly no one after page 1 read this.
 

November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'm not sure if it's the current lack of variety in SR users, or Defog, or what, but I haven't actually seen people using it that much. I run Talonflame without Rapid Spin or Defog and the number of times that it's been screwed over by rocks is surprisingly low.
 
I'm not sure if it's the current lack of variety in SR users, or Defog, or what, but I haven't actually seen people using it that much. I run Talonflame without Rapid Spin or Defog and the number of times that it's been screwed over by rocks is surprisingly low.
It's the setters that are the problem atm, there are like 5... think they are Tyranitar, Mamo, Donphan, Tyrantrum, Aggron, off the top of my head, might be one or two more. Problem is, many of those can't be fitted on any team, Tyranitar is the most splashable atm. My current best team only runs defog and no SR becasue of it, and has been doing fine, tho I'm actually kinda looking forward too new setters, since SR is always going to be useful in a battle, and if you can, there is no reason not too run it.
 
There are also only two good defoggers at the moment, and more people are using Excadrill, so...

Rocks are quite a bit more common in Bank, where you can just slap the move on a Lando-T or even Garchomp. Defog is too, but it's not that easy to use, especially with teams stacking set-up sweepers.
 
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