Pokémon Greninja

[Bravadorado]

Bulky SD Scizor is completely irrelevant unless we're talking about the Mega. Most Scizor even now are Choice Banded and none of them can switch in. Just looking at the early sim statistics show that 44% of Scizor are already running the standard HP/Attack spread. I'd venture there won't be a radical change next week or even next month. Regardless, bulky SD is definitely not common enough a switch-in or set to justify a change to your moveset. I can't even think of a reason for Scizor to go bulky SD in this meta without Scizorite.



This is what I mean by 'rarely'. Scizor catching an Ice Beam on the switch is a rare scenario, and after the first time it does it, it is vulnerable to Hydro Pump.

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 259-305 (75.51 - 88.92%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

^ Even one good switch-in on Hydro Pump is enough to kill it. If Scizor is doing something other than switching in, then I don't care; HP Fire doesn't stop Bullet Punch from going first when Greninja has already shifted to a type Scizor can prey on.


No facts, no argument. 'Too lazy to calc' doesn't tell me how much damage Dark Pulse does to Aegislash. If you want to dispute my information, please counter it with some of your own.


That calc was fishy to even look at. Did you even bother double checking? All I did was change Zoroark's Sp. Attack to 103 and made Jirachi Normal/Psychic.

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 213-252 (52.72 - 62.37%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO

With SR or any other prior damage, it's guaranteed. You can't switch Jirachi in.


Again, these calcs don't even look right. I can tell right away that you have the wrong attack value for Greninja and didn't factor in the STAB on U-turn. Here is the same Zoroark with 95 base Att, 103 Sp Att, and a Dark/Bug typing with a Naive nature:

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 101-121 (33.33 - 39.93%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
U-turn: 29.7 - 35.31%

According to my calculations, you're doing at least 60% every turn without factoring Leftovers and Stealth Rock (meaning Greninja does more).

Another thing we can gather from my calcs is that none of your information is credible. Go play some games and come back with useful discourse.


Comparatively weak moves, I should say. Since Greninja gets STAB on everything, Dark Pulse and company are pushing 120+ effective BP while you're stuck with the mere 90 HP gives you. It doesn't help that he can't even do much with those HP options to aid his already decent movepool.

Both Scizor and Mega Scizor are relevant. I wasn't telling you that Bulky SD normal Scizor is going to be everywhere, but even his unboosted bulky set with recovery and limited investment is enough to match you.

I don't see how that is a rare scenario since Icebeam is his best coverage move without a doubt but okay. But I was talking about revenge killing, Scizor can come in and rock you after you use an ice type move or really most moves besides hydropump. Of course you don't care about it, why would you care about something that destroys your point lol? I'm not talking about HP Fire here, I'm specifically talking about Scizor being a threat to Greninja. He is a threat, no ifs ands or buts. And if you can take him out earlier in the game with a HP Fire he doesn't see coming, then that is GREAT.

I'm too lazy to calc it because Aegislash has two forms with different base stats and I'd have to build him custom from scratch. You said that "HP Fire can't even 2HKO Aegislash" if that is to be believed, then there is no way that Dark Pulse will OHKO seeing as 30 BP does not equate to over 50% HP on anything with any defense. AND if you don't OHKO, then you're going to get OHKO'd in return by Sacred Sword since you used Dark Pulse, again, no ifs ands or buts. HP Fire allows him to survive a possible 3 hits from SS before going down (I don't know what Aegislash usually runs, this is + attack with 4EVs, with more investment, it should still be a 2HKO:

4+ Atk (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 141-166 (48.45 - 57.04%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Yeah the Jirachi calc was slightly off for some reason, not sure why (I did have 103 SpA, LO, Normal/psychic, all that good stuff). I still think that the coverage gained from HP Fire warrants a 3HKO over a 2HKO on Jirachi of all things.

The first Zoroark calc is the same as the Jirachi calc, it's off by about 10% for some reason that I can't identify. But yes, I forgot to change the type to bug after calcing DP apparently.

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 101-121 (33.33 - 39.93%) -- 29.17% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 90-107 (29.7 - 35.31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So yes, there we have around 60% damage over two turns.

It's nice that you say none of my information is credible, when you haven't done anything except show the calcs are a bit off. My point there has almost nothing to do with how much damage DP+UT do together. You said that no other coverage moves do as much damage as Dark Pulse+U-Turn, and yet you can 2HKO with HP Grass still. It's only a possible 3HKO when using Dark Pulse + U-Turn. So yeah, my calcs were off a smidgen, but you're ignoring the points behind the calcs. Try doing more than just disputing my calcs when you argue, proving the numbers are a little bigger doesn't always help your case.

Yeah okay. God forbid we use coverage moves for specific threats that wall him rather than other threats that get 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump (AKA basically everything that Dark Pulse OHKO's). Whatever, I'm done arguing with you at this point, I've taken ample time to show that Dark Pulse just isn't worth it for its coverage when you need a grass/fire move to get rid of very relevant threats that wall you hard or threaten you such as Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Scizor, other steels, other bulky waters, etc.

You're too hung up on the numbers that you proved I had wrong by a bit even though that doesn't actually change the argument. Oh well, other people will see the logic in not using Dark Pulse and U-Turn on the same set.

 

[LordRandomness]

Interestingly, a moveset of HP Steel/Dark Pulse/Grass Knot/Extrasensory lets you resist any non-Fire attack that you outspeed. There are other similar sets like HP Steel/Dark Pulse/Grass Knot/Rock Tomb which covers against everything that isn't Fighting, HP Steel/Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/Hydro Pump to cover all non-Electric moves, etc etc, with HP Steel/Dark move covering everything but Fire, Water, Electric, Fighting, and Ground, with no other two moves Greninja gets covering all five of those (Dragon/Bug would do it in theory, but Greninja gets no Dragon moves and only U-turn which doesn't really count). It is possible to pick up all 5 by giving up Ghost/Dark resistance options though.

Do note that this isn't a set suggestion or anything, Greninja is fragile enough that strong enough hits will tear through it even resisted and priority and faster mons would still wreck it, plus throwing around attacks based on what resists the opponent's likely attack means you're not doing much damage. Fun to think about though.

 

[CyRaX2018]

Greninja def is goin to be a Ou viable poke considering his sp.atk+speed and lets not forget about his exclusive ability Protean its just the icing on the cake it is def a poke ima be intrested in using.

 

[Ranevski]

As much as I want Grass Knot to be the better option (my teams always lack a strong grass move) my experience actually playing the game above 2k clearly proves to me that Dark Pulse is the better option.

SJCrew has posted some good calcs but I think what ends up being the biggest factor is the ease/difficulty for the opponent to play around. When Dark Pulse is good and they want to switch something in they often take 'decent' damage anyways. When Grass Knot is good they often read it and swap in something that makes you take more Life Orb damage than you dealt. The calcs for Grass Knot are nice and all but against good players Dark Pulse has been outperforming Grass Knot by miles.

I want Grass Knot to be the better move, i really do, but it totally isn't.

 

[Namson]

As much as I want Grass Knot to be the better option (my teams always lack a strong grass move) my experience actually playing the game above 2k clearly proves to me that Dark Pulse is the better option.

SJCrew has posted some good calcs but I think what ends up being the biggest factor is the ease/difficulty for the opponent to play around. When Dark Pulse is good and they want to switch something in they often take 'decent' damage anyways. When Grass Knot is good they often read it and swap in something that makes you take more Life Orb damage than you dealt. The calcs for Grass Knot are nice and all but against good players Dark Pulse has been outperforming Grass Knot by miles.

I want Grass Knot to be the better move, i really do, but it totally isn't.

Grass knot?
For swampert, gastrodon and rotom right?
i think hits less than 25% for rotom.

 

[iQs__]

Grass knot?
For swampert, gastrodon and rotom right?
i think hits less than 25% for rotom.

It barely scratches Rotom-W. That thing is lighter than air lol

 

[Bravadorado]

Grass knot?
For swampert, gastrodon and rotom right?
i think hits less than 25% for rotom.

And really any bulky water which will pretty much wall you otherwise.

I really like Dark Pulse as a move myself, but if you take both DP and U-Turn then you are drastically lowering your coverage. I think Dark Pulse has a spot on all out special sweeper sets, something like Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Icebeam, HP Grass/HP Fire/Grass Knot.

For a more mixed set with U-Turn, it feels like such a waste of coverage when you can be taking out basically any bulky water/steel with HP Grass/HP Fire/Grass Knot. And it's not like Hydro Pump has poor coverage, only resisted by Dragon, Grass and Water (Dark is also resisted by 3 relevant types).

 

[RockStarFish]

And really any bulky water which will pretty much wall you otherwise.

I really like Dark Pulse as a move myself, but if you take both DP and U-Turn then you are drastically lowering your coverage. I think Dark Pulse has a spot on all out special sweeper sets, something like Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Icebeam, HP Grass/HP Fire/Grass Knot.

For a more mixed set with U-Turn, it feels like such a waste of coverage when you can be taking out basically any bulky water/steel with HP Grass/HP Fire/Grass Knot. And it's not like Hydro Pump has poor coverage, only resisted by Dragon, Grass and Water (Dark is also resisted by 3 relevant types).

I think regardless of build, all of Greninja's non-gimmick sets would run Hydro Pump/Surf and Ice Beam. Dedicated special sweeper sets would then run two of Dark Pulse, Grass Knot or HP Fire. Mixed sets would run one of those three and U-turn.

The choice of which coverage moves you run (i.e., Dark Pulse/Grass Knot/HP Fire) really comes down to what your team needs. If you desparately need a way to handle bulky Waters like Swampert, Suicune, and MegaGyarados, Grass Knot. If Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn etc., are a concern, HP Fire. If mons like Alakazam, Gengar, and Aegislash will cause problems, Dark Pulse.

I think Dark Pulse is the popular choice purely because Greninja functions so well as a revenge-killer, and of the nine mons I mentioned above, three of the four which will most commonly need to be revenge-killed are weak to Dark Pulse (the other one being MegaDos).

 

[VCrowe]

From my experiance, Grass Knot isn't really that useful. Jellicent and Tentacruel both laugh at it, plus it's extremely predictable.

 

[haunter]

Jellicent doesn't laugh at grass knot. Physical variants are OHKO'd after SR while specially defensive ones take 64.35 - 75.99%. Tentacruel is a different case, being neutral to grass, but even then, grass knot does up to 40% to it. Protean is really a great ability.

 

[cakedup]

Greninja with Protean and Life Orb
Naughty 100 Atk/156 SpA/252 Spe
U-Turn
Water Shuriken
Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb
Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Grass Knot


Wow! This Pokemon is not only awesome, but a royal pain in the tail to determine a moveset for. I am shooting for a mixed attacking set because each of the moves are amazing for different purposes. If you have been under a rock lately, Protean changes Greninja’s type to a the full type of whatever attack he uses, before he uses it! This way everything has STAB! As you can tell I love U-Turn so that is going to be a standard for Greninja. Water Shuriken is a move that has many people frustrated. It is a multi-hit (2-5 hits) priority move that is perfect for shutting down Substitute Pokemon such as Gengar and Volcarona! Outside of that though I wonder about its overall utility. Dark Pulse is a great way to remove the faster ghosts and psychics but Sludge Bomb hits Fairy (and Grass I guess) for super effective damage. Hydro Pump is the strongest viable special move available, but is redundant with Water Shuriken. Ice Beam is always fun when it is STAB plus the frog is faster than all of the Dragons bar Noivern. Grass Knot is useful for giving Greninja the resistances to Ground and Grass, but it also hits Mega Gyarados pretty hard. There are some other options such as Shadow Sneak or Extrasensory, but there would need to a severe problem in your team when it comes to handling them so Greninja fixes the hole. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are cool and all, but Defog is going to be more prevalent with Sticky Web so I believe that either Spike move will be a wasted slot.

 

[xenofiftyfour]

It learns Ice Shard as an egg move

(pic in Italian)

 

[Robo-Ky]

I don't really think it's worth it to run Ice Shard over Ice Beam, since it doesn't OHKO anything important that you don't outspeed.

 

[RockStarFish]

I don't really think it's worth it to run Ice Shard over Ice Beam, since it doesn't OHKO anything important that you don't outspeed.

On top of that, you don't even OHKO ScarfChomp or ScarfMence, the only two reasons you'd consider running Ice Shard in the first place.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 224-270 (67.67 - 81.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 286-343 (79.88 - 95.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

On top of that, you don't even OHKO ScarfChomp or ScarfMence, the only two reasons you'd consider running Ice Shard in the first place.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 224-270 (67.67 - 81.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 286-343 (79.88 - 95.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Why would Greninja even have -1 though? The whole point of having ice shard would be to REVENGE KILL a Salamence. So, I feel like adding -1 is a bit of a less likely situation. The Garchomp calc is unfortunate, but physical Greninja is so underwhelming that I feel it should always run an attack-boosting nature.

252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 317-380 (88.54 - 106.14%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
Not the best damage output but the only use for ice shard against a Garchomp would be in the case of a scarfed one anyway since even adamant/modest can outspeed +speed Salamences and Garchomps.

Also, what scarfed Salamence uses intimidate???

 

[VCrowe]

Ice Shard is actually quite the blessing, because it means he can revenge kill opposing 'mons that can outspeed him, aka, Noivern, Talonflame and Scarfed Dragons. Ice Shard is never really used to OHKO, it's used to revenge kill, so posting damage calcs for it doesn't really prove whether it's useful or not.

Also, this means that the 88 Atk / 168 SAtk / 252 Spd set has a new toy.

 

[Bravadorado]

On top of that, you don't even OHKO ScarfChomp or ScarfMence, the only two reasons you'd consider running Ice Shard in the first place.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 224-270 (67.67 - 81.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 286-343 (79.88 - 95.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With a full priority physical set he would go Adamant though, no?

With how powerful priority is and the emphasis on it in this meta, it might be very useful to have speedy greninja packing 3 "Technician" boosted priority moves.

Adamant gives him a 40% chance to OHKO Garchomp, 60% with SR up.

Edit: We all know what Shadow Sneak can be used for from previous discussions.

And Water Shuriken can kill Blaziken after SR or the LO recoil will spell his doom. Or use a Focus Sash for a guaranteed 2HKO.

You can get a hit on Talonflame with focus sash too, which might be enough to kill it after BB+LO recoil. Or simply run Rockslide/Waterfall as the fourth move.

He won't be breaking any walls or anything, but he sure does murder a lot of squishies.

Edit 2: By the way, you pretty much murder Blaziken or TF if you get more than 3 hits with WS. Both get OHKO'd by it at 4 hits with LO, though that really only counts for Blaziken as TF will be running priority too. If you're worried about TF then I'd say use Focus Sash, and if you're worried about Blaziken then use LO.

But to be sure someone else would need to do in depth calcs on what you miss out OHKO'ing with LO.

 

[RockStarFish]

With a full priority physical set he would go Adamant though, no?

With how powerful priority is and the emphasis on it in this meta, it might be very useful to have speedy greninja packing 3 "Technician" boosted priority moves.

Adamant gives him a 40% chance to OHKO Garchomp, 60% with SR up.

I'm genuinely interested to see how a tri-priority set would actually fare.

Would you slap a Choice Band onto it for extra kick, or stick with Life Orb and possibly give it U-turn as a fourth?

 

[VCrowe]

I'm genuinely interested to see how a tri-priority set would actually fare.

Would you slap a Choice Band onto it for extra kick, or stick with Life Orb and possibly give it U-turn as a fourth?

I'm interested to say the least. If physical Greninja has any hope of making a name for itself, then three priority moves to revenge kill your opponents weakened team is probably the best chance he has. I'm going to have to try this on Showdown, and see how it fares.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Yeah. We should all be happy. Now Greninja has a damaging egg move that's NOT Bestow. Also, now with Water Shuriken, Shadow Sneak, and Ice Shard, all Greninja's missing is Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Sucker Punch. Future move tutors and PokeBank egg moves plz?

 

[VCrowe]

Yeah. We should all be happy. Now Greninja has a damaging egg move that's NOT Bestow. Also, now with Water Shuriken, Shadow Sneak, and Ice Shard, all Greninja's missing is Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Sucker Punch. Future move tutors and PokeBank egg moves plz?

To be honest, I would not mind any I those moves. Also, Showdown hasn't added Ice Shard to Greninja's movepool yet, so I can test the usefulness of a triple priority set yet.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

To be honest, I would not mind any I those moves. Also, Showdown hasn't added Ice Shard to Greninja's movepool yet, so I can test the usefulness of a triple priority set yet.

Totally true. Although, just imagine the gimmick sets! Also, I would LOVE vacuum wave to add to a special attacking set.

On a competitive note, I really like the addition of ice shard. It certainly adds another dimension to a physical attacking set. I doubt it will ever be the preferred set in OU, but if Greninja goes UU, I imagine both special and physical sets being viable. Also, hopefully this is a sign that Greninja will get ice punch from future move tutors.

 

[Robo-Ky]

Even with all its priority moves + Protean, I just don't think Greninja has the raw power to make a pure priority set work. Compare it to Scizor, with its Bullet Punch backed by Technician, or Azumarill with Huge Power + Choice Band or Belly Drum, or Talonflame with a 120 BP STAB priority move.

I guess the set's usefulness could depend on what role you're using it for, though I don't see it working as much more than a pure revenge killer. And Greninja is fast enough already that he's already a solid revenge killer with just its regular moves.

 

[Bravadorado]

Even with all its priority moves + Protean, I just don't think Greninja has the raw power to make a pure priority set work. Compare it to Scizor, with its Bullet Punch backed by Technician, or Azumarill with Huge Power + Choice Band or Belly Drum, or Talonflame with a 120 BP STAB priority move.

I guess the set's usefulness could depend on what role you're using it for, though I don't see it working as much more than a pure revenge killer. And Greninja is fast enough already that he's already a solid revenge killer with just its regular moves.

It's true that Scizor has Technician, but Greninja has Technician for anything that wasn't originally STAB. It's a little bit worse than Technician when running the priority set, but it can make up for that by mind games. Consider Blaziken, he has two choices when facing Greninja: Use HJK and possibly get boned if the greninja predicts and uses SS, or use Flare Blitz and seal your fate if Water Shuriken doesn't OHKO. Either way, Blaziken is going to eat dirt, and I'd willingly trade Greninja for Blaziken, considering most teams with a Blaziken on them will need that Blaziken.

Anyway, what do you guys think about using Pup Punch as the 4th move in this priority set? Switch in on something that is scared of special greninja, use Pup Punch on the switch and you're at a free +1 and some damage on the switch in. This would of course limit you in that you would have no powerful moves, but the boosting could be worth it. Especially late game when the non-squishies are hopefully dead.

With Pup Punch this set covers 12 types.

 

[Punchshroom]

With Pup Punch this set riddled with priority moves covers 12 types.

Wow, now Greninja has nothing but moves that average around ~40 Base Power! Have fun killing things with those! And while I'm at it, I might as well try the alternative, 'Bullet Punch / Vacuum Wave / Extremespeed' Lucario, to cover speedy threats and waste all that offensive potential!

If you don't see where I'm going with this, you don't need to dump a Pokemon full of priority moves (especially if they have low BP, which is why Kanga gets a pass) in order for it to work. You don't even get to make good use of any defensive perks Protean grants you because you're just too weak to KO back anything threatening you.