Move Infestation (and trapping moves in general)

[Fundance]

I wonder which is better overall - grip claw or binding band.

Grip claw is 7 guaranteed turns of trapping and dot at 1/8. That's basically a KO against anything that doesn't have recovery, providing your pokemon can stall out 7 turns.

That makes me wonder if there are any capable Pokemon who can learn Heal Block...

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I wonder which is better overall - grip claw or binding band.

Grip claw is 7 guaranteed turns of trapping and dot at 1/8. That's basically a KO against anything that doesn't have recovery, providing your pokemon can stall out 7 turns.

That makes me wonder if there are any capable Pokemon who can learn Heal Block...

But heal block is sooooo baaaaad.

 

[BuddhaSmite]

I wonder which is better overall - grip claw or binding band.

Grip claw is 7 guaranteed turns of trapping and dot at 1/8. That's basically a KO against anything that doesn't have recovery, providing your pokemon can stall out 7 turns.

That makes me wonder if there are any capable Pokemon who can learn Heal Block...

I think that these sets work fine without the item, especially if there is residual damage like burn or poison. Although Grip Claw basically means all you have to do is not faint and you'll win, and that's not hard to do through a combination of protect, substitute, recovery, or moves like Dig and Fly.

For funsies:

Dragonite @ Grip Claw
Wrap
Roost
Fly
Substitute

How annoying is that set, lol?

 

[TwoBit]

I think that these sets work fine without the item, especially if there is residual damage like burn or poison. Although Grip Claw basically means all you have to do is not faint and you'll win, and that's not hard to do through a combination of protect, substitute, recovery, or moves like Dig and Fly.

For funsies:

Dragonite @ Grip Claw
Wrap
Roost
Fly
Substitute

How annoying is that set, lol?

Seems like a better use of those turns would be to set up Dragon Dances. Moves that threaten Dragonite are the kind that OHKO it anyway after Marvel Scale is gone.

 

[Fundance]

Normally it is, but when you can trap something and then completely negate its ability to heal off the residual damage? Maybe worth it, maybe.

Another thing I've been thinking of experimenting with is accuracy lowering moves in combination with trapping moves. Something like Mud Slap, or general hax like confusion or paralysis.

 

[aim2game]

With the extremely odd distribution of Infestation (Ghosts and Dragons learning it), I am hoping to see Dewgong get it, or maybe Dewgong will finally get Whirlpool.

Dewgong @ Leftovers
Jolly | Ice Body | 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
- Infestation / Whirlpool
- Hail
- Substitute
- Encore / Dive

Leftovers and Ice Body will allow Dewgong to sustain Substitutes, Hail and Infestation / Whirlpool would whittle the trapped enemy down, then you can use Encore to trap an enemy in a useless move or or prevent the enemy from using a healing move. Alternatively you can use STAB Dive to block an attack and help speed up the kill. A couple other fun options might be Lick with it's 30% chance to Paralyze or Disable instead of Encore.

Something else I just thought of... what if you trapped the enemy and then used Echoed Voice? It does low damage but grows in power. With a good defensive trapper, you can Echo Voice maybe 2-3x then once you knock out the target the opponent switches in a new Pokemon and then you use a 120-160 BP move. If you are a Normal Type trapper the damage would be 180-240 BP. Not sure how well it would work, but just something I thought about.

 

[Lady Valkyrie]

Wow, running this (Sand Tomb) on Gliscor with EQ/Knock-Off/Roost was a bit of a let down. There are just too many pokemon that can switch in with their Ground immunity and just cause Gliscor to be a hindrance more than anything else. Maybe it was the lack of a Sub on it, but at least with Gliscor, I prefer Toxic on it.

 

[Flamebot]

Carnavine has 2 trapping moves, and alot of status moves.
He might be interesting to try.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Carnavine has 2 trapping moves, and alot of status moves.
He might be interesting to try.

But carnivine as a pokemn is pretty bad. Doesn't even have an analysis, I think.

 

[8-BIT Luster]

You know what I found? Spiritomb has access to Infestation AND solid defensive stats.

Also, Reuniclus has access to infestation, heal block AND recover!
That's some solid stalling.

Reuniclus@Grip Claw
-Infestation
-Heal Block
-Recover
-Psyshock
Calm Nature
EVs- 252HP/4SpA/252SpD
IVs- 0Atk
OFC, Magic Guard is the ability of choice, as it means Reu can't get Toxic or WoW-stalled.

Psyshock could be replaced with anohter move, but I personally don't want him to rely solely on Infestation as its sole damaging move.

With some Toxic Spikes support and some weather, this could easily whittle down an opponent's health and still get a match done relatively fast.


Or you could run a mixed Spiritomb.

Spiritomb@Grip Claw
-Infestation
-Knock Off (This now has 65BP AND deals 50%more damage of the opponent has an item at the time of use.
-Hypnosis (Just to immobilize them even more)
-(FILLER)

 

[Banryu]

Discussion is really devolving in here… We're covering a lot of ground that's already been tread and moreover not found to be viable.

Reuniclus, Dewgong, and any users of Sand Tomb don't constitute viable users of this strategy in my book. In fact generally of these moves that any frequently-used Pokemon can be immune to doesn't seem particularly viable. Magma Storm Heatran is an exception, and the Pyroar set mentioned a few pages back actually sounds pretty good due to its speed, but there are plenty of immunities to Wrap, Whirlpool, and Sand Tomb floating around-- thus, these are NOT effective trapping moves, so please refrain from discussing, as we're trying to keep the discussion to things that would actually work well.

I know the thread is long, but try to read through it and step it up, people.

 

[Pidgey Airlines]

Hm, maybe this would work better?


Reuniclus @ Assault Vest @Regenerator
72hp/ 188def/ 252sdef

- Infestation
- Future Sight (/Psychic)
- Energy Ball
- Focus Blast /Knock Off

While it loosing Recover Assault Vest allows Reuniclus to survive longer when facing an enemy who buffs his special attack (So it doesn't get 1h KO'd after a nasty plot).
(I'm not sure if it works when combined with Assault Vest) Future Sight got it'S base damage buffed to 120 and hits quite hard.

The attack moves allow Reuni to wear down dangerous enemies faster.

E/: Derped for a sec. Ofc Protect and Assault Vest don't work together

 

[8-BIT Luster]

The Reuniclus with Heal Block was something that was an amalgamation of some of the general ideas.

Fundance was wondering if Grip Claw and Heal Block would work well in conjunction.
The only available user of Infestation AND Heal Block was Reuniclus.
Also, why ISN'T Reuniclus a viable user of a trapping move?

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Knock Off and Taunt are both better than Heal Block. As is most any attacking move, even in this context.

 

[Conspirator]

To answer the other part of your question, Reuniclus isn't a viable user of a trapping move as it's not really an offensive sweeper. Also, if it wants to give constant damage, then it'll run flame orb and trick. Reuni's better as a wall or a trick room user than a trapper.

 

[Banryu]

Fundance was wondering if Grip Claw and Heal Block would work well in conjunction.
The only available user of Infestation AND Heal Block was Reuniclus.
Also, why ISN'T Reuniclus a viable user of a trapping move?

I tested a Bold/Lefties Reuniclus set with CM/Recover/Infestation/Psyshock and found it to not be very effective. With how bulky he was last gen I thought he might be able to abuse Infestation, but with how physically-centered the metagame is this time around, it didn't get many opportunities to set up, and RARELY if ever was able to trap a Special attacker to set up CM on. Even if he did, the opponent would just switch out after it runs out and bring in CB Ttar or something.

As for the Assault Vest/Regenerator set, I can't believe that it would be any more effective especially since 1) it's vulnerable to Toxic thanks to lack of Magic Guard, and 2) can't use Recover because of Assault Vest. Goodra does the whole Infestation/Assault Vest trapping thing almost 100% better due to better typing and Special bulk. Reuniclus pretty much NEEDS Recover in order to make itself not 100% outclassed by Goodra, so Regenerator and Assault Vest pretty much deprive it of both things that it NEEDS to be successful. And, as I stated, even when it had most of those things in its favor it still didn't work that well beyond the surprise factor.

Now, I'm not terribly creative myself, so I'm not saying that just because it didn't work for me, someone else can't come up with something better. I'm open to new ideas with Reuniclus' Infestation, but please try to make an effort to test these sets to see if they're any good at some point when proposing them.

IMO though the best thing Reuni can do this gen is a straightforward bulky offensive set with LO 3 attacks + Recover. Regenerator is pretty bad on Reuniclus in general, since it's basically 100% outclassed by the combination of Magic Guard and Recover.

EDIT To cite a more effective iteration of the trapper set:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Infestation
- Ice Beam

I like it, especially because burns are common and freeze can happen.
This has become my normal gastrodon set, trapping pokemon that gastrodon can wall with infestation works great.

Gastrodon's been mentioned before, I think, though I dunno if this exact set was mentioned.

The trap that I think a lot of people are (ironically) falling into is to base the trapping sets entirely around the trapping move-- this works sometimes, but moreover I think you just gotta treat Infestation like a tool to make the Pokemon succeed more, not the solely-riding crux of the set. (That right there is why most of the Whirlpool/Sand Tomb sets fail.)

 

[8-BIT Luster]

I see.
Hmm... so no Whirlpool cuz of Water absorb and Storm drain...

so I'm still trying to work with the Spiritomb idea, as it hasn't been nixed.
Also to clarify: I don't know if I've been interpreting this wrong, but the general consensus seems to be that Binding band deals 1/4 dmg per turn, when in reality, it's 1/8. So that means grip claw is obsolete, as trapping moves normally deal 1/16 dmg per turn.

 

[farranpoison]

I see.
Hmm... so no Whirlpool cuz of Water absorb and Storm drain...

so I'm still trying to work with the Spiritomb idea, as it hasn't been nixed.
Also to clarify: I don't know if I've been interpreting this wrong, but the general consensus seems to be that Binding band deals 1/4 dmg per turn, when in reality, it's 1/8. So that means grip claw is obsolete, as trapping moves normally deal 1/16 dmg per turn.

Actually, Binding moves now deal 1/8 damage instead of 1/16. So, now Binding Band increases that from 1/8 to 1/6.

 

[8-BIT Luster]

Then why is it listed as 1/16 on PS?

 

[Pidgey Airlines]

Because PS isn't always up to date ;)

 

[8-BIT Luster]

Because PS isn't always up to date ;)

Ah.

OK. So Grip Claw ISN'T obsolete.
But running a mixed Spiritomb. Grip Claw or Binding band?
Or does it not make a notable differnce?

 

[Pidgey Airlines]

I'm wondering. Why don't we keep it simple?

Dusclops
Eviolite
252 Def 252 sDef

-Infestation
-Taunt
-Rest
-Sleeptalk

Taunt disables any boosting moves that could be a threat, there are not many Pokemon who can kill Dusclops within those 2 turns of sleep without those.

Pros:
-Once trapped the enemy is as good as dead.

Cons:
- Can be countered by taunt
- Takes 2 turns to work.

 

[aim2game]

Someone mentioned Torkoal in the Assault Vest thread, and when I was looking him up on Bulbapedia, it got me thinking.

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Jolly | White Smoke | 148 HP / 148 Def / 252 Spe
- Fire Spin
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rapid Spin

A trapper with Rapid Spin. High defense, coupled with the attack decrease of Will-O-Wisp makes him tankier. Protect to block 1 attack and give lefties healing. Can take out a physical attacker and clear traps. I can't say if this will give him another niche or not, but I hope it might since he is such a cute dopey turtle!

 

[Banryu]

I see.
Hmm... so no Whirlpool cuz of Water absorb and Storm drain...

Okay see here's the thing. I'm not the boss of this thread, whether I'm the OP poster or not-- I'm just trying to steer the discussion in a more viable/relevant/intelligent direction. I'm trying to be like the common sense here, if it helps to think of it that way.

But yeah, in any case, I definitely think that Water Absorb and Storm Drain have enough distribution to make Whirlpool kind of a non-option, and that's already overlooking its spotty accuracy (which I'd prefer not to rely on). However, if there's a situation where you feel or find that it's viable, by all means, share it. Just be aware of factors against it as well as for it and whatnot.

But running a mixed Spiritomb. Grip Claw or Binding band?

Neither. Leftovers is pretty much what you want on any Infestation-user that lacks Recover, and even then, it's probably not a bad idea. Grip Claw's damage increase isn't all that significant (not enough to give up Leftovers), and running Binding Band instead of Leftovers means that opponents who DO have Lefties, other forms of recovery, or any form of passive damage (or especially Taunt) are probably going to wear you down before you can do the same to them.

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Jolly | White Smoke | 148 HP / 148 Def / 252 Spe
- Fire Spin
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rapid Spin

So the idea is to beat Spinblockers with this I guess, right? Aside from maybe Trevenant and Pumpkaboo, what else is it effective against? …also, what purpose do the Speed EVs serve? What is Torkoal trying to outspeed with 20 Base Speed?

^
By the way, this is the kind of inanity I'm trying to encourage people to avoid discussing in here. I hate to single anyone out specifically (there have been a LOT of posts like this one), but this is basically what I'm talking about-- Torkoal isn't that strong a Pokemon, and beyond beating a few VERY specific Ghosts with the set, I don't think there's much merit to it (but feel free to prove me wrong if you can).

 

[aquaspirit39]

I am done playing my Quagsire and gonna move on, so here is my last contribution on this matter:

Quagsire - Unaware
@Binding Band
*Infestation
*Recover
*Protect
*Yawn

Positive Impression:
(Gonna left this as impression because I am new to competitive pokemon and dare not call something a fact just from my experience)
-Compared to other pokemon, Quagsire only has one weakness(grass) and grass move is pretty rare to encounter.
-Yawn is very useful in preventing unprepared opponent who try to switch into something that can OHKO Quagsire.
-Quagsire has enough defense to survive most physical attack except from those of Uber level. (Was 2HKO by Mega-Garchomp)
-However, in many chance Quagsire has no problem trapping other Dragon such as Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados as long as they don't do Draco Meteor.
-Even if these dragon has powerful attack, with correct prediction I manage to trap+sleep them most of the time
-Unaware prevent opponent pokemon from OHKO Quagsire even after Dragon Dance, PuP,etc.

Negative Impression:
-Even with binding band, I cant kill a single pokemon. Although the status end with my Quagsire in full health and opponent pokemon in 20~30% health
-Special attacker take down Quagsire really easy
-Can not handle other tank because they usually has self-heal and infestation itself isnt enough to kill anything (Was going a long stalemate when I try to kill a Wash Rotom who can sleep).

Final Impression:
While this set work for most of the time, I feel that it is too situational and specialized. It is better to give this spot to another pokemon that has more utility.