OU Personal Viability-Based Tier List(Wrap)

[Dre89]

Decided to do this because I was bored and thought it might spark some life into these forums. I'm not using the OU and UU tiers, because those signify usage, whereas I'm only concerned with viability. These are just my opinion, and note that it factors wrap. These tiers aren't designed to be their own metas, they just rank viability in what we call OU (basically anything goes except Mew or Mewtwo). Note that the pokemon aren't ranked within each tier.

Super Tier
Tauros
Snorlax

Top Tier
Alakazam
Jynx
Starmie
Chansey
Exeggutor
Rhydon
Dragonite
Persian
Cloyster
Victreebel

High Tier
Lapras
Slowbro
Jolteon
Gengar
Dodrio
Zapdos
Golem

Mid Tier
Tentacruel
Articuno
Hypno
Moltres
Nidoking
Venusaur
Kangaskhan
Dugtrio
Sandslash
Gyarados
Kingler
Clefable
Raticate


Low Tier
Everything else


Explanations
Super Tier- These two should be on every team unless you have a very specific strategy (eg. wrap, but even then they're still really good). They are good no matter what the opponent has and are thus the two best pokemon when team selecting against an opponent blind.

Top Tier- Really good pokemon that can consistently net you wins. The most controversial selections are probably the wrappers and Persian. The wrappers are really good with wrap legal. Persian could probably challenge Tauros for a team slot with wrap legal, as wrap mitigates it's main weakness, which was that it can't take hits. Slash hits everything bar two pokemon for good damage, and more importantly threatens to 2HKO chansey without committing to hyper beam. The ability to do that is huge in the wrap meta, which is why Rhydon is a tier above Golem. Exploding your rock isn't that good of an idea in the wrap meta unless you know they don't have Dragonite or if you're booming on it. Golem's explosion isn't as much of an asset in wrap as it is in non-wrap. Jynx is there because it's probably the second best lead in the game behind Alakazam, and is an underrated pokemon in general.

High Tier- These pokemon are good but are generally outclassed by other pokemon, or their strengths don't really suit the wrap meta. Lapras would probably be high tier if not for being outclassed by Cloyster with wrap legal. Gengar is not that good of a pokemon and is only high tier because of its wrap immunity, but even then it's still normally better to run Rhydon instead. Electrics are walled by grounds and are generally outclassed by other fast pokemon who can hit everything hard with just one move (eg. Persian, Dodrio, Tauros etc.). Slowbro is a good pokemon who isn't really outclassed in its role, it's just that it is soft-countered by wrappers.

Mid Tier- Niche pokemon that lack consistency and should only really be used if you have a very specific team strategy in mind. Nidoking is underrated in wrap, as it can get in without taking hits and threaten a wide array of pokemon with it's coverage. The main thing keeping it in mid tier is that it can't 2HKO Chansey without a crit, so it doesn't hit hard enough considering that it is 2HKO'd by most pokemon. Tentacruel is a wrapper who counters most other wrappers. Kingler is honestly underrated in both wrap and non-wrap and probably should be moved up to BL in the tier lists that have BL, because it is better in OU than most current BLs. Mixed sweeper that can set up, and has decent match-ups with with common physical pokemon and Cloyster. Raticate is another UU that is better than a lot of current BLs in OU, but only in the wrap meta. Super fang can be scary when Raticate can get in without taking hits. Articuno is mid because it is outclassed by both Cloyster and Lapras in wrap, and rock slide is used more frequently to catch Cloyster and Dragonite. The rest are standard BLs

Low Tier- Couldn't be bothered tiering the rest because they're honestly just too inconsistent and don't really fit into any specific team strategy where they are not outclassed.

 

[Bedschibaer]

I would probably put Zapdos in top tier, after Rhydon/Golem is gone it becomes one of the best mons in the meta. And opposed to Starmie it is not completely walled by Chansey and Alakazam.
Also Gengar is imo a really good pokemon, so "only" putting it into high because it's immune to wrap. Fastest sleeper in the game, only mon normal immunity and can explode. I wouldn't call that "not that good of a pokemon"

 

[Jorgen]

These tier names just give everything a gold star, huh? Like, even the bottom of the actually-viable barrel gets "mid" tier.

Anyway, you're way too high on Persian/Victreebel/Cloyster/Dnite and too low on Lapras/Slowbro/Zapdos/Gengar/Golem. Taking wrap into account doesn't mean assuming Wrap is basically the only viable strategy because that's just not how the game is played. Even then you should be rating Snorlax lower in that case because he can be a huge liability against a team that spams Wrappers.

Granted, your ideas about Wrap are so far off and have been for so long that I'm really just pointlessly spewing old hat at this point, but dammit when I see RBY topic, I respond to RBY topic.

 

[Dre89]

Bed- Zapdos is really overrated imo. I normally don't run a ground in my teams and I normally don't really have trouble with electrics. Their ability when grounds are gone is overrated. Their main problem is that they don't have reliable recovery and don't threaten everything with the one move. I put them in high because I acknowledge that they can do so damage in specific situations and/or if they get some luck.

Gengar honestly isn't that good. I'd love to think it is, because it's basically my favourite pokemon at the moment (my avatar probably gives that away). It just doesn't do relevant damage to most of the meta unless it gets cray hax or booms. Fastest sleep doesn't mean much when it's a bad lead anyway. Getting the first sleep is not that important, and it's not worth risking getting OHKOd by a crit psychic. Good leads are good sleep absorbers. Gengar isnt a good absorber because it cant wake up on anything and cant relive spc drops. Catching explosions is very rare against smart players who are unpredictable and know not to explode when their exploder can only take one more hit. It also doesn't help that it gets owned by common boomers if it mispredicts. Normal immunity isn't that great either, because it still gets owned by earthquake, and smart players don't fail for chain switches to earthquake immunities. Once you show your gengar (which is normally straight away because it's often a lead) it's no longer a safe switch-in, and the immunity becomes completely worthless once gengar is asleep.


Jorgen- I'm 'high' on the wrappers because I've used them a lot and realised that they're really consistent and can compete with the big boys.

I said lapras was a good pokemon, but I see no reason to use it over cloyster when wrap is legal. If wrap is banned then I think lapras is better.

The tier list doesn't assume that wrap is the only viable strategy, it assumes that wrap is a threat that you need to consider when team-building. Slowbro's placement is a good example of this. Its placement is lower than it would be in a non-wrap meta due what are probably its most reliable counters being more common. It's similar to how zapdos' placement in a tier list is dependent on how common goldon is in that meta. This is also why golem is lower than rhydon, because the threat of dragonite nerfs its explosion in the sense that you have to be a lot more cautious about using it.

Persian I admit may have just been me being too overconfident in my theorycrafting, but most other controversial placements I know from experience.

Snorlax is rated high because it's good on any team. It's excellent on wrap teams if you already have rhydon or gengar, or just don't fear dragonite. He's vulnerable to wrap, but threatens everything instantly and nothing except cloyster really wants to switch into it. It's weakness to wrap is mitigated somewhat by controlling the wrap war because as I just stated it's not fun to switch into. It is also very good on non-wrap teams, which contrary to your belief have been given equal weighting in this list.

As for my ideas on wrap, I feel like I at least have a 'right' to comment on wrap because unlike most people here I've actually used wrap teams extensively in ladders and tourneys for a period over six months. That's why I rate pokemon like cloyster and victreebel so high, because I know from first-hand experience that are very good in practice.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Lapras and Cloyster are about even with Clamp legal - Cloyster does indeed have Clamp, but Lapras can paralyse shit and doesn't die horribly to being poked with a Thunderbolt or STAB Psychic. AgiliWrap Dragonite is exceedingly good when it gets set up, but it has a tendency to fail to do so. Victreebel's 2HKOed by everything and is extremely finickity, but it is usable.

My list is something like this.

Awesome Tier (USE THIS.)
Chansey
Snorlax
Tauros
Exeggutor

High Tier (Consider this.)
Starmie
Alakazam
Dragonite
Golem
Rhydon
Slowbro

Decent Tier (May come in handy.)
Jynx
Lapras
Cloyster
Zapdos
Gengar

Usable Tier (Gimmicky but viable, and you should avoid being weak to it.)
Jolteon
Victreebel
Persian
Articuno
Gyarados

Shit-but-situationally-kinda-useful Tier (Don't use this, but occasionally you're gonna get lucked by this and it'll suck.)
Nidoking
Dugtrio
Raichu
Dodrio
Clefable
Ninetales
Kingler
Parasect

Oh My God You Suck Tier (If you are using this, you suck or you're duelling left-handed.)
The rest

(Note that this tier list is specific to RBY OU as it is currently played; Kangaskhan and Moltres, for instance, are OMGUS Tier because Tauros and Dragonite, respectively, are strictly better, but they'd be at least Usable Tier in a meta where Tauros and Dragonite were banned. Likewise, this has no bearing on UU or Ubers rankings.)

 

[Dre89]

Thing is cloyster does more important stuff. It's the best switch into lax in the game, "walls" physical pokemon better, and has a better chansey match up. the bad starmie match up is mitigated somewhat by clamp switching out, which lapras cant do (although to be fair its not like chansey needs a free switch in to starmie).

As for bel, you need to be remember than in the wrap meta frail pokemon dont need to make many hits anymore. That's why bel is good with wrap but crap without it.

Dragonite doesn't need to be a pure sweeper though. The main reason I pick it over tauros for my wrap team is the extra utility it brings. It can set up in the middle of the match and set up offensive switches for pokemon like rhydon or victreebel. Outside of sweeping tauros doesn't really have any utility, but what it does have oer nite is that it's more threatening instantly if you get it in for free. I prefer the utility of nite on my wrap teams because I normally have a rhydon or lax to do that hard-hitting that tauros offers for me, but that's just a preference thing.

I don't think chansey and eggy are in the same league as eggy. Chansey is a bit more meta dependent and often opens up offensive opportunities for the opponent, especially if they have wrap. Eggy is great too but I feel that pokemon like zam or starmie are more important. What makes eggy a 'necessity' on a team is the fact that it can switch into grounds. If you have other options for that (starmie is the next best thing) or think you can keep grounds from switching in it's not as necessary as say, having a good sweeper (tauros) or a good lead (zam/starmie/jynx).

 

[magic9mushroom]

Thing is cloyster does more important stuff. It's the best switch into lax in the game, "walls" physical pokemon better, and has a better chansey match up. the bad starmie match up is mitigated somewhat by clamp switching out, which lapras cant do (although to be fair its not like chansey needs a free switch in to starmie).

30% of the time a Cloyster switch into Lax is going to die because it got paralysed on the switch-in. Cloyster is the best Snorlax check in existence, but it's not a reliable counter.

Cloyster's matchup against Chansey is limited to Exploding on it. Clamp does fuck-all and the 75% accuracy is woefully inadequate against a foe with Thunder Wave and Softboiled.

As for bel, you need to be remember than in the wrap meta frail pokemon dont need to make many hits anymore. That's why bel is good with wrap but crap without it.

Alakazam and Tauros are very good at forcing things to take hits, though.

Outside of sweeping tauros doesn't really have any utility,

Revenge-killing, generally good matchups against chipped stuff.

I don't think chansey and eggy are in the same league as eggy.

Eggy is definitionally in the same league as Eggy.

Chansey is a bit more meta dependent and often opens up offensive opportunities for the opponent, especially if they have wrap. Eggy is great too but I feel that pokemon like zam or starmie are more important. What makes eggy a 'necessity' on a team is the fact that it can switch into grounds. If you have other options for that (starmie is the next best thing) or think you can keep grounds from switching in it's not as necessary as say, having a good sweeper (tauros) or a good lead (zam/starmie/jynx).

Chansey is Awesome Tier because Chansey defines the RBY meta. Physicals are offensive because they can beat Chansey. Specials are defensive because they can't. Mixed attackers generally suck because they still generally can't beat Chansey.

Eggy is Awesome Tier because it is THE sleeper and THE exploder, and THE check-to-everything. It's That Thing you use to throw sleep, or That Thing you use to paralyse Zam, or That Thing that stops a Slowbro sweep by Exploding in its face, or That Thing that paralyses and specfalls Chansey so Rhydon can attack it. It's just generally the defensive glue holding a team together.

 

[Dre89]

No physicals are offensive because there is no true physical wall, and specials are defensive (they're more hybrid really) because of chansey but also because they wall each other. This is why you can forgo chansey for 2-3 psychic types.

I think the main reason eggy is used is because its grass typing allows it to check grounds. If grounds werent used, I'd probably prefer hypo for the lack of an ice weakness and the superior movepool outside of explosion. Explosion is pretty nice though.

 

[magic9mushroom]

No physicals are offensive because there is no true physical wall, and specials are defensive (they're more hybrid really) because of chansey but also because they wall each other. This is why you can forgo chansey for 2-3 psychic types.

Zam's the only other thing that remotely counts as a special wall (everything else either has special weaknesses or not enough bulk), and it can't take STAB 120 moves (Blizzard, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, and Razor Leaf counts too) easily like Chansey can.

I think the main reason eggy is used is because its grass typing allows it to check grounds. If grounds werent used, I'd probably prefer hypo for the lack of an ice weakness and the superior movepool outside of explosion. Explosion is pretty nice though.

Sleep Powder > Hypnosis.

Water and Electric resistances are also rather nice for Egg. I mean, Egg (and Dragonite, I guess) are THE reasons Ice is better than Water as an attacking type.

 

[Jorgen]

Well, that and Ice can freeze things and has a very accurate 120-BP move.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Well, that and Ice can freeze things and has a very accurate 120-BP move.

Yeah, but you wouldn't, for example, see Blizzard used over Surf/Hydro Pump on Starmie if it weren't for Exeggutor and Dragonite.

 

[Dre89]

Well people never use blizzard for freezing, just ice beam.

I'm considering running ice beam over blizzard on jynx just so I can sit in front of chanseys (I run rest).

I used to run kiss blizz beam rest, but then lapras and paralysed starmie have their way with her.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Anyone besides Dre have any views on my alternative ranking?

 

[Dre89]

I know you didn't want me to comment, but can I ask why you put gyarados up with the likes of OU-BL types like articuno jolteon and persian? That's probably the most controversial thing in your list.

Also why ninetales over moltres and charizard?

 

[Bedschibaer]

Gyarados gets Thunderbolt, Blizzard and Surf/Hydro Pump, coming off from a 100 base special stat, while still having a huge Body Slam and Hyper beam it's quite a threat in RBY. The only thing that keeps it from actually being one of the best mons in RBY is that huge thunderbolt weakness. And it's decently fast too, so yea, it finds it place next to mons like persian for me too.

 

[Dre89]

It's also held back by the fact that it's outclassed by dragonite. Nite has more bulk, more attack, similar speed and a better movepool. STAB surf isn't that great, because nite's surf still OHKOs golem and rhydon, and nite can do more damage to most pokemon anyway. Gyaras surf does do more damage to gengar and the physical normals though. The electric weakness is also better than the ice weakness, but I think other than that it's outclassed.

I'd honestly just use kingler over gyara. Similar speed, more attack, can set up, and does more water damage.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I know you didn't want me to comment, but can I ask why you put gyarados up with the likes of OU-BL types like articuno jolteon and persian? That's probably the most controversial thing in your list.

Only reason I asked for others' opinions was because you'd already given some of yours. No disrespect intended.

It's at the bottom of "usable". EQ immunity giving switch-in opportunities, high enough Attack to actually pose a threat to Chansey (guaranteed 3HKO with Body Slam + Hyper Beam - Lapras never 3HKOs), and STAB Hydro Pump + special coverage make a decent mixed attacker. Gyarados and Kingler are very similar, but Gyara's ability to switch in on Earthquakes for free (whereas Kingler takes significant damage from even resisted moves) and avoidance of STAB Psychic 2HKO (both of them are 2HKOed by any Thunderbolt, so who really cares if Gyara takes a little more) were what tipped it.

Also why ninetales over moltres and charizard?

It's in the list of "things that can occasionally be gay to go up against" because it can be an annoying anti-Jynx lead. All of them suck, but Ninetales has a niche in which it can be an annoyance on occasion. Parasect's in the same boat despite its utter suckitude because under some rare endgame conditions (only two or three opponents left, all of them Psychic-type) it can sweep with its legendary Mewtwo-killer set. The criterion to get into the "shit but occasionally annoying" tier isn't one of how generally good a Pokemon is, it's one of how good it can be under totally perfect conditions.

 

[Dre89]

But wouldn't you agree that kingler is at least in the same tier as gyara? It seems like an apples or oranges thing. Note that crabhammer does virtually the same damage as gyara's hpump but has slightly more accuracy (although a crit hpump would do way more). I'm also not sure if the flying type makes it better or worse at switching in. On one hand you have the EQ immunity, which is really only great once. After that you risk rock slide, which I'm sure would be a 2HKO at least from rhydon.

Moltres and zard can be 'gay' (I really don't like using that term) in their own right too. Moltres has agi-firespin, which is the ultimate pain-in-the-ass strat. Zard has swords dance plus quake and hyper beam, which means that it can actually be a threat in very specific conditions (or if it gets a shitload of luck).

Speaking of swords dance, I think if you're going to put parasect in that tier, basically anything with swords dance should be there too. Lickitung for example, actually requires less specific conditions to be a genuine threat (ie. basically everything paralysed and weakened) for it to be able to sweep due to swords dance plus STAB wrap. I think it will also raise eyebrows that you consider gimmicks like parasect on the same level as traditional BLs like nido, dugtrio and clefabe. Te latter two you actually see in OU every blue moon (nido should gethave more usage imo).

 

[magic9mushroom]

I don't consider them "on the same level". How to explain it...

Actual OUs
Parasect (1% of the time)
.
.
Nidoking (30% of the time)
.
Limit of relevance
.
Moltres
.
Nidoking (70% of the time)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Parasect (99% of the time)

The criterion for inclusion in the "shit that can occasionally wreck" category is top-end, not mean. I've suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of a saved Parasect before, and it was a threat that was unique to Parasect (100% accurate sleep + Substitute + health-draining Bug STAB). Thus, I'd be kidding myself if I didn't at least note it as something that can be ridiculously annoying in the right circumstances, as opposed to using, I dunno, Vileplume or something.

The reason I put Kingler as "gimmick" is because it needs a free turn to get in, which cannot reliably be forced. You can rant about Wrap-switching, but most of the time Wrap and Clamp are going to hit Starmie and Alakazam, both of which destroy Kingler anyway. You could theoretically get it in in an advantageous matchup if you've set up an AgiNite and your opponent is trying to PP-stall with Rhydon, but if you've set up an AgiNite you're already in an extremely good position and using Kingler probably falls under "win-more" tactics. On the other hand, Gyarados does not need a free turn to get in, because it can come in for free on Earthquake and basically for free on Surf - both reasonably common attacks. As such, you can pull shenanigans with Gengar or Rhydon or something to try and get it in with, in the Nash equilibrium, some actual degree of success. That's why I put Gyarados in "not great but usable" whereas Kingler goes in "you're praying for a miracle".

 

[Dre89]

I think you're really overrating the EQ immunity. Gyara only gets in for 'free' once with its immunity. After is has shown itself it's no longer safe. Surf is not super common, and the most common surfer is starmie, which you're not going to switch into. The next most common surfer would be slowbro, and kingler probably does better against bro than gyara because it can set up on it if it rests.

Setting up aginite doesn't always mean you're in a winning position. If you do it mid-game you're looking to make an offensive switch because you're not going to switch. Kingler can get in unscathed with wrap switches, and is more threatening instantly than gyara due to higher attack and more accuracy on basically the same water damage as gyara's hpump.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I think you're really overrating the EQ immunity.

Am I? 2-3 things on a typical team use it (Tauros, Snorlax, and Rhydon/Golem if they have it), and against a team with Gengar (particularly if you're running Drain to stop the Rocks Sliding) it'll see quite some use. Gengar + Flying is a well-known combination which forces your opponent to constantly make hard predictions. Dragonite is probably better than Gyarados at the role, but Gyara does have a less crippling weakness as well as an actual STAB.

EDIT: also Snorlax uses Surf

 

[Dre89]

Thing is it works once, then you risk a 2HKO from rock slide. Even if you haven't shown your gyara, you risk rock slide anyway because smart players will be bslamming and rocksliding for eggy.

 

[Jorgen]

Except when Eggy is gone, of course. In which case you still have something to keep them from EQing away.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Thing is it works once, then you risk a 2HKO from rock slide. Even if you haven't shown your gyara, you risk rock slide anyway because smart players will be bslamming and rocksliding for eggy.

Good luck finding a Tauros or Snorlax with Rock Slide... Tauros doesn't even LEARN it.

(Also, what Jorgen said.)

 

[Dre89]

The only thing a tauros will be earthquaking for is gengar. Gengar and gyara on the one team sounds a bit too out there for me. I guess it's still useful for lax though.