XY NU Theorymon Discussion

[atomicllamas]

Haha woops, I missed that XD. However, there are many other good defog users in the teir, many of which i feel are underrated in 5th gen NU, particularly Articuno. 4x Stealth Rock weakness is a bummer, but could this set work?

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Defog
- Toxic/Roar/Substitute/Heal Bell/U-turn/Tailwind

The problem with Articuno being a defogger, is that it will only be wanting to use defog after having to switch into rocks, giving it fewer opportunities to switch in and defog. In my opinion stuff that is neutral to SR will be much better at defogging, Skuntank is something that I could see becoming the premier defogger of NU, with its ability to absorb t-spikes before defogging and general decent synergy with things that appreciate defog support. In gen 6 NU, Articuno will be much better off relying on teammates to defog for it.

 

[ryan]

Someone tell me why Pyroar is here. Please. It may not have the greatest typing, and it is SR weak, but really. 106 speed? YES PLEASE. 109 Spec Attack? YES. It may have lack of coverage, but I can see a Scarf or Specs set with Overheat, Fire Blast, Hyper Voice and filler be a decent set. Remember, this is a Pokemon with better offensive stats AND speed AND bulk than Manectric, albeit with a worse typing and coverage. Either it will be banned outright, or number one in NU.

Really? Hell, Jynx has a sleep move, fantastic dual STAB, good coverage, Dry Skin, Trick, Nasty Plot, great Speed, fantastic Special Attack, etc. and doesn't break the tier. So why would a Pokemon with a mediocre movepool, less Special Attack, no good abilities, less Special Attack, less swag, etc. break NU? Also, if we're comparing it to Manectric, it wouldn't have even been that great in BW NU, and it had Lightningrod, better Speed, better Special Attack, Volt Switch, and Switcheroo on its side. There are a lot of components to Pokemon, and good Speed and dual STAB doesn't break it at all.

I also wanted to bring up some other possibilities for NU Pokemon. I'm thinking that Manectric/Houndoom both have potential to come down to NU. They have really, really underwhelming Mega Evolutions, and their base forms aren't anything to write home about either. To be honest, I think Manectric and Houndoom both would have been ok in BW NU lol. What really, really hurts these two, though, is that they are competing with other Mega Evolutions for a spot on every team. Why use Mega Manectric or Mega Houndoom in UU over something like Mega Absol or Mega Heracross? And in RU, obviously this is pure speculation, but I'd think that we'll see Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Medicham (which is incredibly similar to its base form), perhaps Mega Gardevoir (this one might be a stretch because it could very well end up in UU), Mega Banette, etc. I'd imagine that they'll still see a lot of competition from superior Mega Evolutions, even in RU, so it -could- be that we see these two down here.

I also really think Heliolisk is going to end up down in NU. Dry Skin is a really cool ability, but outside of that and its good Speed, it really doesn't have a whole lot to make it stellar. 109 SpA is good, but with only Thunderbolt and no Hyper Voice for STAB, it doesn't seem like a high quality wallbreaker. It does have Surf and Grass Knot for coverage, but again, I'm not sure if it makes it stand out much as a top-tier threat.

Of course, the above examples of possible NU Pokemon are definitely more of a stretch than what was outlined in the OP, but the only other Pokemon in the OP that's not obvious NU material is Aurorus. I think there's potential for these three to end up in NU, and while Heliolisk probably wouldn't (imo) make a huge splash in the meta, the Mega Evos might. I think it'd be interesting to see NU with the least appealing of all the Mega Evos.

 

[Typhlito]

I dont think heliolisk will be nu tbh, while it does have a small movepool with no normal stab (even though normal stab is kind of bad anyway) and its basicly a weaker jolteon it has just enough tools to get the job done. Its dry skin and normal typing gives it a niche in even ou to counter/check rotom, ageislash (can ko with tbolt it they are at 60-70% hp) and azumaril. It could sub on most water type's faces while they switch to a counter like scarf chomp and nail it with hp ice. It also can potentially 2hko a special defensive togekiss while holding expert belt.

 

[ryan]

Normal STAB is really, really good in NU. With limited (pretty much just Metang and Probopass with the occasional Klang) Steel-types and manageable Rock-types, Normal STAB is basically the Dragon STAB of NU. It has really good neutral coverage and thus is really easily spammable. Also, a lot of those qualities you listed of Heliolisk are true of other NU Pokeon. Most Electric-types can "potentially 2HKO a specially defensive Togekiss while holding an Expert Belt." It doesn't really "counter" Rotom per se either; Rotom is a bulky pivot, so it comes in on attacks that it can easily stomach and pivots out with Volt Switch. I'd consider a Rotom counter to be something that can block its Volt Switch without really minding Hydro Pump or Will-O-Wisp. A perfect example of this is Gastrodon. It doesn't counter Azumarill at all because it is not switching into a Play Rough or a Superpower ever. Aegislash is something it can handle fairly well, but that doesn't make it OU worthy.

Basically what I'm getting at is that its main niche is Dry Skin, which other Pokemon typically do better. Plus, like I previously said, despite Jynx's Dry Skin, it still found itself in NU. It really boils down to how it interacts with the top threats in each lower tier as they are created. It might not be NU (hence why I said it might be a stretch for me to say it could end up NU, though I still believe it probably will be), but I think there's a good chance it will be. Of course, this is all theorymon, so take most of it with a grain of salt. Dusclops and Claydol managed to hang onto UU for so long, after all.

 

[Typhlito]

It wouldnt be all that affected by a pivot rotom as long as it has sub since it can then avoid its pain split and wilo wisp though so it cant stall and its sub can easily tank a volt switch from rotom. Sure heliolisk and jynx share the same ability but the difference between them is that heliolisk has fewer weaknesses and its faster than terrakoin n friends while being able to ko both terrakoin and keldeo. Finally it resists the more popular steel typing. And it really does counter azumaril since its too slow to hit heliolisk with anything but aqua jet which would just heal it anyway while being ko'd by t-bolt, something gastro or jynx cant do.

 

[Thatoneguy15]

I think that Cacturne will have a bigger presence in the metagame now because his main roles as a sword dance sweeper and spiker aren't being overshadowed by Scoliopede anymore. Steel not being resistant to dark helps too, but there aren't that many steels in NU anyway. Hazards, though, will probably have less of an impact with the new defog mechanics. The spinners in 5th gen were just not that good (Wartortle lol), so most people just relied on putting offensive pressure on the opponent to prevent hazards from going up. I still don't know if I like this change or not but I guess we'll have to wait until we can actually play the metagame to see how it turns out.

 

[jake]

I just wanted to point out that Shedinja gets a few interesting buffs. It gets Phantom Force now which is pretty neat-o, though idt you want to be using it until you're sure they don't have anything left to hit you with. Also, the Defog buff plays a lot into the hands of Shedinja users - unblockable spins? yes please! The inclusion of Safety Goggles is really cool, too; avoiding all weather damage and Powder moves gives it an actual option for an item outside of Focus Sash if weather ends up down in NU thanks to the nerf. Focus Sash might still be preferable for a one-time lifeline in case you screw up or need to 2HKO something that has an SE move, but still very interesting nonetheless.

I mean... it's still pretty garbo, but at least you don't have to build an obnoxious team around it just to support it and basically ditch all chance at winning. It'll be pretty adept and hard-countering a number of Pokes and might be at least usable down in NU.

Also Thatoneguy15 - I wrecked a number of ppl on the ladder earlier today with Wartortle alone. Don't diss 'em. >:|
..but yes generally it is not an optimal spinner

 

[Qualna]

I think Heliolisk will be NU and will be a force to be reckoned with, let's see what is has..


A glance at it's stats reveals it sits in a godly speed tier, allowing it to run around the enemies team in circles(sadly, it fell short on Tauros), it is also immune to Paralysis. It's Sp Attack is good enough to punch holes, it has decent Sp Bulk too although Physical Bulk sucks, it's better than Jynx's.

It's movepool is pretty shabby: Grass Knot and Surf removes those lured Ground types and allow it to spam Volt Switch. Focus Blast for a hands-on way of nailing things like Lickylicky or Munchlax but why do that when you can just Volt Swtich out? And Thunderbolt for STAB. Of course, HP still exists.

Its ability Dry Skin is a fantastic ability to have, making switching in on Water-types it's supposed to threaten much easier.

Heliolisk's main selling point is it's combination of fantastic speed, good Sp Attack and small but precise movepool which makes it the best user of Volt Switch in NU. Now where can we get his Scizor?

If Heliolisk will indeed be NU(which is likely) poor Electabuzz will be outclassed by its Electric brethen.

 

[watashi]

the problem with heliolisk is that it has no way of hitting grass types unlike eelektross, rotom, and potentially manectric outside of hidden power which was nerfed this gen. it will still be a cool pokemon to use in nu but it could really benefit from a normal type stab move

 

[Franklyna]

Where do you guys think Unfezant will end up? Hypnosis + Wish is now a legal combination on the bird, plus he has a nice +10 boost to his attack (it's 115 now). The lack of a strong Flying STAB like Brave Bird ruins his potential quite a bit, but he isn't nearly as prone to being worn down as Swellow is between Hypnosis, slightly better bulk, and no burn damage.

 

[Othesemo]

Where do you guys think Unfezant will end up? Hypnosis + Wish is now a legal combination on the bird, plus he has a nice +10 boost to his attack (it's 115 now). The lack of a strong Flying STAB like Brave Bird ruins his potential quite a bit, but he isn't nearly as prone to being worn down as Swellow is between Hypnosis, slightly better bulk, and no burn damage.

A SR-Weak mon with 80 base hp is far from ideal as a wish passer, while Braviary and Golbat leave him overshadowed as a bulky Flying type (Golbat even learns Hypnosis, not that it'd ever use it). Meanwhile, his best physical flying STAB is literally Fly, meaning that even with the attack boost, he'll remain inferior to the likes of Dodrio (let alone Swellow) as an offensive bird.

I suspect that it'll do no better this gen than the last.

 

[atomicllamas]

Where do you guys think Unfezant will end up? Hypnosis + Wish is now a legal combination on the bird, plus he has a nice +10 boost to his attack (it's 115 now). The lack of a strong Flying STAB like Brave Bird ruins his potential quite a bit, but he isn't nearly as prone to being worn down as Swellow is between Hypnosis, slightly better bulk, and no burn damage.

Unfortunately for Unfezant, I don't think that it the new move combination will really help that much, because in both supporting roles, and in terms of an attacker it is extremely outclassed. If I wanted to use an offensive bird pokemon, Swellow, Braviary, and Dodrio are all better choices due to access to brave bird, and hell even Fearow is superior due to getting drill peck and drill run, allowing to get around some stuff other birds can't. Hypnosis still has a shaky 60% accuracy, making it less reliable than focus blast, not something that is really all that appealing. As stated above, as I just got ninja'd, Unfezant is far from the ideal wish passer, as it is just woefully out classed by Alomomola, Lickilicky, and Audino in that regard.

Unfezant is one of those pokemon that can be used, but never should be on a serious team, as everything it does is outclassed by something else.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah Unfezant still sucks, doesn't really do anything decently and many other birds do much better than it.

Anyways, I'd like to talk about the possibility of Drapion possibly dropping down to NU this gen. In 5th Gen RU, Drapion was struggling to do well in the metagame because it had a number of flaws, namely being very weak, having no recovery, and a lack of a good typing to make use of its stat spread. Drapion also was outclassed by a lot of things, so it reaching NU this gen would be reasonable. Drapion would still struggle in higher tiers now that new Mega Evolutions have been brought forth and Drapion's flaws still hurt it a lot. If it were NU in XY, just how would it fare? It would probably be somewhat better than Skuntank, with actual coverage as well. Mandibuzz and Scolipede leaving would help it a lot too, so it has less competition for a teamslot. How would the scorpion do in NU overall?

 

[sethkillu2]

I think that Pyroar is gonna be a great scarfer/specs user. It may not have the utility that zard had, but it outspeeds A LOT. I will miss Kangaskhan....

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah, Unfezant's lack of any good Flying moves is what really kills it, otherwise its impressive Attack, above average Speed, and halfway-decent bulk would've distinguished it from most other birds.

Anyways, I'd like to talk about the possibility of Drapion possibly dropping down to NU this gen. In 5th Gen RU, Drapion was struggling to do well in the metagame because it had a number of flaws, namely being very weak, having no recovery, and a lack of a good typing to make use of its stat spread. Drapion also was outclassed by a lot of things, so it reaching NU this gen would be reasonable. Drapion would still struggle in higher tiers now that new Mega Evolutions have been brought forth and Drapion's flaws still hurt it a lot. If it were NU in XY, just how would it fare? It would probably be somewhat better than Skuntank, with actual coverage as well. Mandibuzz and Scolipede leaving would help it a lot too, so it has less competition for a teamslot. How would the scorpion do in NU overall?

I think Drapion would actually see a bit more use in higher tiers as a Mega-Gengar trapper and Aegislash stopper, but that's for another time.

If Drapion does fall down to NU, it would likely not only be the premier Dark-type of the tier, but even one of the better Pokemon to use in NU. A look at Drapion stats' can remind us of the similar blend of bulk, Speed, and power that Mandibuzz brought to the tier. While Drapion does not have reliable recovery, it does boast better Speed (able to Taunt Golbat and Misdreavus without much / any Speed investment), SR neutrality and Toxic Spikes to help in its stall breaking role, which it does marvelously. Furthermore, Dark's newfound neutrality against Steel, Knock Off's buff, access to Swords Dance, good natural bulk, and workable Speed can make it one of the scarier setup sweepers in NU. A highly simple moveset of Swords Dance, Knock Off, Earthquake, and Poison Jab / Taunt can easily cover nearly everything in NU: having STAB Knock Off as one of your sweeping moves goes a long way in taking down a myriad of defensive threats. I can't think of many defensive Pokemon that can even stand much of a chance against stallbreaker Drapion (like with Mandibuzz, hell Drapion can even beat Mandibuzz one-on-one), nor any consistently good switch-in for offensive Drapion. Did I mention this thing knows Agility too?

The premier offensive Dark-type of the tier that can either destroys stall or sets up / sweeps relatively unhindered, Drapion will be a force in NU.

 

[alexwolf]

There is no way Drapion will fall down to NU. It got significant buffs in 6th gen, with 97 BP Knock Off, Poison STAB to eliminate Fairy-types, and Assault Vest to make Pursuit trapping easier. Its Swords Dance sets are actually capbable of wallbreaking now and it gets perfect coverage with a moveset of Knock Off / Poison Jab / Earthquake.

 

[atomicllamas]

There is no way Drapion will fall down to NU. It got significant buffs in 6th gen, with 97 BP Knock Off, Poison STAB to eliminate Fairy-types, and Assault Vest to make Pursuit trapping easier. Its Swords Dance sets are actually capbable of wallbreaking now and it gets perfect coverage with a moveset of Knock Off / Poison Jab / Earthquake.

You overestimate Drapion in RU this gen, and it's swords dance set was barely viable by the end (t-spikes was a much better option). Knock off is a nice boost, as two knock offs hit slightly harder than two crunches (162.5 vs 160 Bp) with the added utility of removing items. But to put things in perspective, two double edges from an audino out damages two knock offs from drapion with the same investment. Drapion was never a powerful Pokemon, even it's swords dance set was used as a stall breaking set with taunt, it really owes its presence in RU to the stints Cofagrigous and Cresselia had in the tier.

I mean obviously this is theorymonning, but for Drapion to (deservingly) end up in RU it will have to either dominated by Ghosts and Psychics (or fairies I guess) or by stall, as a stall breaker that eats ghosts an psychics alive is its only real niche. It will probably end up RU anyways as Drapion is one of those mons that is better on paper than in practice, and ps kiddies like random mons.

Also Drapion is probably one of the worst assault vest users, as it is not really that strong, and has a decent support move pool (t-spikes, taunt, whirlwind).

I think drapion would be a super cool addition to NU though, being a great offensive SD user or a stall breaking sweeper with taunt and SD. SpD t-spikes would probably be good too.

 

[alexwolf]

It's not about what Knock Off can 2HKO in comparison to Crunch, it's what it can OHKO at +2 in comparison to Crunch, and in this aspect the difference is huge. Not to mention that the item loss is a big thing against both offensive and defensive Pokemon. Defensive checks to Drapion will have to play the rest of the game without Leftovers, making them much easier to wear down and eventually overwhelm.

 

[Franklyna]

Sadly, think you guys are probably right about Unfezant. Hopefully my favorite quail will get Brave Bird or even Drill Peck as a tutor move next gen or something.

Anyways, I'm excited to try out Wigglytuff in the new NU format. I think he's one of the few Pokemon with the Wish + Destiny Bond combo, plus his movepool and HP is expansive. 85 SpA is slightly underwhelming, but still servicable for a support 'mon. What really limits Wigglytuff's viability IMO as a cleric with an offensive presence is the lack of a reliable boosting move. He has Competitive now, which helps, but it requires either strong prediction, a remiss opponent, or Sticky Web (which may or may not be all that common in NU).

I remember using a Counter Wigglytuff set in Gen 5 NU and surprising the hell out of people by counter-killing their Sawk after a Close Combat, but it was a pretty gimmicky (but fun) setup otherwise.

 

[HispanicPanic]

As a cleric, I'd probably prefer to use Aromatisse since it's most likely going to NU as well. Sure Wigglytuff can pass bigger wishes, but Aromatisse doesn't have to worry about Taunt or Encore due to its ability which definitely gives Aromatisse the edge as a cleric. Wigglytuff will probably have its uses, but I think there will be better clerics out there once 6th NU comes out.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

If this a bump, sorry, but I will give my own sightsthoughts on this. And sorry if I misspell words, because I'm not too good with checking before postings.

I think for the RU drops, it could be:
Hitmonchan (Not really that good in RU TBH, but I don't think it will be too broken in NU if it does drop)
Manectric (Most likely will not drop, but still a bit interesting)
Sandslash (No use to him at all anymore, Sand Rush is very situational now, plus it's not really good that you have to waste a slot on Sandstorm just so it could abuse it's best ability IMO)
Lilligant (Debatable, but since she got hit by 3 of the biggest nerfs, and since her former main counter is now down here to check, I would be interested if she did drop, but mostly since she is my fav poke)
Dusknoir, Ferroseed, and Drapion (Same deal with Lilligant, debatable, but Drapion probably will be least likely)
Archeops (It's almost like Slaking and Regigigas, would-be high tier poke if not for the awful ability)
NFEs:
Sligoo
Floette
Frogadier
Quilladin
Honedge (Since Doublade will be RU/UU most likely)

For new pokes:
Avalugg and almost all NU megas won't be NU for sure. However, I do agree all OP listed pokes will be NU.

Plus for some reason, I wanted to see Claydol and Registeel drop to NU, as well as Ambipom, but it's not as bad in UU to me anymore, except for the Fake Out ladder scrubs. But feel free to discuss any of these pokes.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

I think NU will be played a lot more this generation due to the lack of Mega Evolutions, which is a nice change of pace.
That Being said, i could see a couple Mega Pokemon being in NU, mainly Manectric, Aerodactyl, and Ampharos, due to their lack of usefulness in higher tiers. Would any of these have any niche?

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

The first two are if the regular ones drop, but I do agree Mega Ampharos will be NU material. Hits hard, but does look like it gets badly countered by Fairy and Ground types.

Aerodactyl, if it does drop, will be a good user of hazards (And someone should check if it gets Defog or not), and will hit very hard. And it's speed is up there with Ninjask's, which is pretty cool. The only problems are that it's kinda frail and it does need Defog support if it's going offensive. The Mega I think would be top-tier imo.

Manectric is an odd case. Intimidate does help it from Earthquake spammers, but still, Special Ground-type move users are known to exist, even if rare. His Special Attack and Speed are pretty good, and Flamethrower to handle Steel-types is cool. I think his main counters would probably be Seismitoad or the possible drop of Quagsire, as if Manectric is not having a Grass-move on hand, it will get owned. Added to that is a bunch of predictability while facing him. But still, possible top tier threat. Just wait and see.

Now, I'm interested to see what you guys think of Malamar. Even though it's not on the OP, it's pretty interesting. (I think it's allowed in the NU Tournament going on now, so yeah)

To me, Malamar is a way better Spinda. The weaknesses hurt, but it can be dealt with via support. Contrary Super Power is probably the main attraction here, as is it's signature move. The flaws are that it doesn't hit hard enough without boosts, and that it could be predictable. But anyways, tell me what you guys think.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

The first two are if the regular ones drop, but I do agree Mega Ampharos will be NU material. Hits hard, but does look like it gets badly countered by Fairy and Ground types.

Aerodactyl, if it does drop, will be a good user of hazards (And someone should check if it gets Defog or not), and will hit very hard. And it's speed is up there with Ninjask's, which is pretty cool. The only problems are that it's kinda frail and it does need Defog support if it's going offensive. The Mega I think would be top-tier imo.

Manectric is an odd case. Intimidate does help it from Earthquake spammers, but still, Special Ground-type move users are known to exist, even if rare. His Special Attack and Speed are pretty good, and Flamethrower to handle Steel-types is cool. I think his main counters would probably be Seismitoad or the possible drop of Quagsire, as if Manectric is not having a Grass-move on hand, it will get owned. Added to that is a bunch of predictability while facing him. But still, possible top tier threat. Just wait and see.

Now, I'm interested to see what you guys think of Malamar. Even though it's not on the OP, it's pretty interesting. (I think it's allowed in the NU Tournament going on now, so yeah)

To me, Malamar is a way better Spinda. The weaknesses hurt, but it can be dealt with via support. Contrary Super Power is probably the main attraction here, as is it's signature move. The flaws are that it doesn't hit hard enough without boosts, and that it could be predictable. But anyways, tell me what you guys think.

Topsy Turvy is also a great check to all the Slurpuffs running around.

On the subject of Slurpuff, it's a really good Pokemo that functions well as a Demonic cupcake of doom Good setup sweeper. No, Belly Drum is not good. But the Calm Mind set is great with Slurpuffs extensive movepool.

 

[Flareon]

I HAVE FLARE BLITZ NOW, COME AT ME HATERS.

Aromatisse could be really good in doubles, but it has a good niche in singles: it can't be taunted and is able to set up Trick Room.

Call me crazy, but has anyone considered Gale Wings Fletchinder? It's attack isn't too far below Talonflame (albeit even that isn't great)