Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

[Its_A_Random]

Anecdotally about its power, fighting Wulfric it KO'd the first two Pokemon with Flare Blitz taking the majoirty of its health in recoil. Avalugg Cursed on the Hyper Potion, took a Flare Blitz for 30% damage and OHKOd back with Avalanche. 30%. STAB SE 120 base power attack on a +1 Pokemon.

Here is the problem:
-You have Flamethrower & Fire Blast at that point of the game, & Talonflame's Sp. Attack is only seven points lower then its Attack
-This is relevant because Avalugg has Base 184 Defence compared to Base 46 Sp. Defence. I would be hitting it with Flamethrower over Flare Blitz any day, even if it is only for one battle.
-Of course Avalugg is only going to take ~30% from a Flare Blitz at +1 Defence when its physical bulk is already titanic to begin with.

We were debating your point on #orangeislands, & basically, how would a Talonflame always be belted by an Avalugg when you have access to Special Attacks that you can use, even if it is just for the one battle?

That said, B Fletchling was probably not the greatest of ideas. I was debating putting it in Limbo between B & C, only for people on IRC to convince me otherwise to put it in B.

 

[Colonel M]

You get Shadow Claw not too far into the game which it learns, so Panpour isn't exactly stuck with lick.

Shadow Claw is not available when Panpour desperately needs a better move to work with.

Before it learns Water Gun.

Lapras -- B Class. Give it Rock Smash, Surf, Waterfall, and Strength and it's a strong, bulky HM slave. It can take hits, and dish them out, especially when given a nature benefiting Attack moves. It's given to you immediately after getting HM03 Surf, and also is the only surfer with a unique animation. That's just aesthetic, but hey, it's the little things.

At first I almost objected and was going to barter it to C... and I still might, but there are a few unique perks to it.

First, it learns Ice Beam at a decent time (32). I'm having some minor doubts on it being available by the Grass-type gym, though. It also can learn Thunderbolt after the fifth gym, which gives it a unique typing of attacks. Sadly, the 6th and 7th gym are mainly neutral targets and the 8th is not really Lapras's favorite gym, either.

I think C kind of fits the bill better. It has a decent movepool and can double up as a HM slave. It's just Water-types are "ehh" gym-wise and against Team Flare it only really beats... Zubat family and Houndour family.

 

[Eeyore]

^ That Lapras Surfing animation is worth an S-tier all on its own. ~3~
Keep in mind though, my donkey friend, that we're not factoring Exp. Share into tiering. With that said, I wholeheartedly agree with your choice of tier for Farfetch'd. He can solo the first gym and makes a useful HM slave from that point onward.

my apology. More a suggestion than anything else. My choice on Farfetch'd still stands. Thanks =D

 

[Banryu]

Malamar is definitely A.The thing trolled balls at team flare/lysandre.

Maybe you wouldn't mind doing a writeup with the format in the OP?
Lately I've actually been specifically curious as to how Inkay would perform on an in-game run. I'm kind of eager to see the rundown on him.

 

[farranpoison]

My Malamar had a good nature, had Contrary, even EV'd it (though that's not the point) and it still performed somewhat... lackluster compared to my other mons. It's the lack of speed, I feel that made me feel that way.

My ingame team at the end of the story was Chesnaught/MBlastoise/Malamar/Lapras/Mawile/Pidgeot. And I did EV train all of my mons and barely used Exp share. Malamar actually started to get less used near the end of the game for me, where I rather would have just used Lapras/Mawile/Pidgeot to ruin everything (Chesnaught/MBlastoise were pretty eh for me). Malamar with Superpower/Contrary is great and all, but often times was unnecessary. It would also get hit quite a lot, requiring me to use lots of items/run to the center. It's not the most bulky of mons, too, somewhat hindering it (even though I EV'd mine in Attack/HP).

Now what I say may not have any influence on what you all think about Malamar, but when someone prefers to use Pidgeot over Malamar, that might be saying something.

 

[Lucchini]

Is there even a way to manipulate it so that you always get Acrobatics before the other 3 TMs? Considering nothing's stopping you from beating the game in one day, the existence of Acrobatics on a given playthrough cannot be assumed (even if you don't play much, you can't be sure you'll have the move for Ramos).

Changing the 3DS clock did nothing for me.

 

[farranpoison]

Is there even a way to manipulate it so that you always get Acrobatics before the other 3 TMs? Considering nothing's stopping you from beating the game in one day, the existence of Acrobatics on a given playthrough cannot be assumed (even if you don't play much, you can't be sure you'll have the move for Ramos).

Changing the 3DS clock did nothing for me.

Remember that changing the clock will halt all daily events until the next 24 hours.

 

[Lucchini]

Remember that changing the clock will halt all daily events until the next 24 hours.

Does that mean you can manipulate it quite certainly if you change the date to 1 day prior to getting Acrobatics and then leave the game alone? I haven't been able to find which days those are, though.

 

[farranpoison]

Does that mean you can manipulate it quite certainly if you change the date to 1 day prior to getting Acrobatics and then leave the game alone? I haven't been able to find which days those are, though.

If you're going to do that, it seems much easier to check each day to see if you get the TM. It's literally only like, 4 TMs? And as far as I know the person gives them in order, unless I'm wrong.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Just my opinions on Inkay when I used it (before ditching it after Gym 5), & basically I found it quite unreliable. To start out with, Foul Play is really inconsistent when it is based on the opponent's Attack & not your own. You can remedy it with Swagger, but Swagger + Foul Play is very unreliable, & quite inefficient as well, not to mention, you do not want to Swagger something like Sawk. Psywave is really bad & never OHKOes. Topsy-Turvy is too situational. Psybeam gives it a decent attacking move other than Foul Play, but even it is pretty weak, & Payback when you get it is inconsistent as well, forcing you to be slower to deal more damage. Inkay itself tends to die often. It struggles to take a few hits & its Speed is not that quick, it struggles to make much of an impact, struggling against Grant & Korrina since those two leaders hit you hard. Did not use it against Ramos or Clemont though. No ideas after that, though Contrary Superpower I guess is a major boon, likewise Psycho Cut & Night Slash. I guess it has good lategame potential, but its earlygame performance is just... bad & unreliable.

I think A-Tier is a bit too much of a stretch for it, but B-Tier or C-Tier could be right for it. Its earlygame is just too bleh for A-Tier imo.

 

[Lucchini]

Inkay sounds like a C-tier at best, honestly. Bad start, unimpressive lategame and a typing that only makes it a good switch-in against one of the game's least commonly seen types.

 

[Colonel M]

Inkay sounds D. It has mediocre advantages with situational benefits. Contrary Superpower comes too little too late IMO, and relying on Payback means you're attempting to move second.

Yeah, D at best.

 

[Tomy]

Shadow Claw is not available when Panpour desperately needs a better move to work with.

Before it learns Water Gun.

At first I almost objected and was going to barter it to C... and I still might, but there are a few unique perks to it.

First, it learns Ice Beam at a decent time (32). I'm having some minor doubts on it being available by the Grass-type gym, though. It also can learn Thunderbolt after the fifth gym, which gives it a unique typing of attacks. Sadly, the 6th and 7th gym are mainly neutral targets and the 8th is not really Lapras's favorite gym, either.

I think C kind of fits the bill better. It has a decent movepool and can double up as a HM slave. It's just Water-types are "ehh" gym-wise and against Team Flare it only really beats... Zubat family and Houndour family.

I guess you're forgetting the Elite 4. Lapras steamrolls Malva, Drasna and Siebold, and is a good option against Wilstrom with Surf/Ice beam/T-Bolt. And it can hit SE 5 of Diantha's Pokemons with the same moves. B-tier is perfect for Lapras.

 

[Colonel M]

I guess you're forgetting the Elite 4. Lapras steamrolls Malva, Drasna and Siebold, and is a good option against Wilstrom with Surf/Ice beam/T-Bolt. And it can hit SE 5 of Diantha's Pokemons with the same moves. B-tier is perfect for Lapras.

Lapras probably is missing OHKOes on some of the Pokemon and is definitely slower than some of them. I think this also depends on the level discrepancy presented at that point of the Elite 4. Though there are usually faster, better options for some of those, I can at least agree it does okay in the E4 settings. Just the lack of a real mid-game barring maybe the fourth gym and being an HM slave seems mediocre. It's a Pokemon you have to invest into heavily to get that far.

Compare this to someone like Scorupi / Drapion, who can wreck two of the gyms that are near it and can be benched afterwards at little to no real cost.

 

[Tomy]

Maybe it fails to OHKO some major pokemons (85 SpA is "just" good) but it has amazing bulk. And while Siebold's team can take non-STAB T-Bolt, Malva, Drasna and half of Diantha's Team is ruined by STAB Surf/Ice Beam.

EDIT: Tiering isn't comparing pokemons.

 

[Colonel M]

Maybe it fails to OHKO some major pokemons (85 SpA is "just" good) but it has amazing bulk. And while Siebold's team can take non-STAB T-Bolt, Malva, Drasna and half of Diantha's Team is ruined by STAB Surf/Ice Beam.

EDIT: Tiering isn't comparing pokemons.

You're misunderstanding the comparison of Pokemon.

It's comparing two Pokemon roughly in the same tier and how they're comparable or un-comparable.

And like I also said, you have to actually make it to the E4 for Lapras to do well. But it has little strength against Team Flare and Gym Leaders. That's not necessarily helping it.

 

[Tomy]

It has no type advantage, but it's a solid back-up option. It isn't a deadweight by any means. I used Lapras and it was a pleasant surprise overall.

 

[Banryu]

It has no type advantage, but it's a solid back-up option. It isn't a deadweight by any means. I used Lapras and it was a pleasant surprise overall.

Seconding this. Lapras did very well for both me and my GF, and the fact that it do well in lesser battles (it might not necessarily have great matchups against the gyms or team flare, but there are plenty of lesser trainers to feed it experience along the way, especially with Lucky Egg since Lapras' growth IS admittedly rather slow) just as well as pull out-of-battle utility duty makes it a pretty solid option IMO. I agree with B-tier for Lapras.

Inkay as D-tier also sounds pretty fitting if it has as much trouble pulling its weight early on as y'all say.

 

[Tomy]

Inkay is that bad? I wanted to test it, but there are some consensus over here about it...

About Lapras, it has a - somewhat - good match-up vs Team Flare, the Houndooms don't like to take a STABed Surf. Same with Ice beam vs Golbat.
My first team was Delphox/Vivillion/Lapras/Zangoose/Venusaur/Lucario, and I agree with what has been said here. Delphox, Vivillion and Venusaur are all A-tier. Lucario S-tier (steamrolled pretty much everything) and I wrote my analysis about Zangoose previously: B tier material.

 

[vilelab]

Inkay is that bad? I wanted to test it, but there are some consensus over here about it...

About Lapras, it has a - somewhat - good match-up vs Team Flare, the Houndooms don't like to take a STABed Surf. Same with Ice beam vs Golbat.
My first team was Delphox/Vivillion/Lapras/Zangoose/Venusaur/Lucario, and I agree with what has been said here. Delphox, Vivillion and Venusaur are all A-tier. Lucario S-tier (steamrolled pretty much everything) and I wrote my analysis about Zangoose previously: B tier material.

 

[Squid Ninja]

I used Inkay during my run and it was, by far, one of the most reliable Mons of my team. While I agree he has an unimpressive start as Inkay, it gets way better when it evolves. Mine sponged hits really well.

While a lot of people sell Contrary Superpower, Contrary by itself is already a beastly ability. +1 Atk against Intimidate, +1 Spd against the weirdly common Bulldoze and immunity to accuracy decreasing moves is a huge deal in-game. Access to Hypnosis also makes it great for catching wild Pokemon.

While judging by other people's experience I wouldn't put it at A or even B tier, but C seems right.

EDIT: As for major battles, he does great against Ramos (His Gogaot gives him a speed boost with Bulldoze and Foul Play hits hard), Olympia (Night Slash) and Wulfric (Superpower). At the Elite 4, he utterly destroys Wikstrom with Superpower + Night Slash. Against his Aegislash he even gets an Attack boost with King's Shield.

 

[Ondore]

If it was just me I'd say B-tier for Inkay/Malamar, but I don't think I'll win that argument so I'll push for C-Tier if we're accounting for his TM capability (STAB Thief is good until Night Slash comes around) and the fact that half the time it won't have Contrary.

Grant - May be able to cripple something with Hypnosis, but not reliable.
Korrina - Should be a Malamar at this point, and Psybeam or Aerial Ace by TM are good plays here. It's kill or be killed with his Defense, though.
Ramos - If it has Aerial Ace it can do a lot against everything. At the very least it should have Psybeam for Weepinbell.
Clemont - Special Defense being not his strong suit, and if you have Superpower for Magnezone you have been doing way too much grinding.
Valerie - nope.gif
Olympia - Much better! Night Slash laughs at everything, and nothing can really touch it.
Wulfric - Superpower will mow down anything he throws at you, but PP is a concern.

Malva - Beats Chandelure (Night Slash)/Pyroar (Superpower) quite handily, might want to avoid Torkoal, can probably beat Talonflame if you elect to give it Rock Slide (but that's pretty far out of the way)
Siebold - Relatively neutral, but Contrary versions get a free +1 from Gyarados which could get rid of it, Barbaracle and Starmie.
Drasna - Psycho Cut beats Dragalgae, probably want to avoid the rest.
Wikstrom - Keep it away from Klefki and Scizor, but Superpower wrecks Probopass and should give you enough power to get past Aegislash (and if you have Contrary and happen to Night Slash against King's Shield, you win.)
Diantha - Obviously keep it away from Gardevoir, but it's neutral to Goodra and has SE STAB against Gourgeist/Hawlucha and Superpower goes to work on the fossils.

Team Flare: Always helps to have a Psychic for the Poisons, and will usually win a damage race against things like Houndoom. Also, Lysandre's Gyarados (especially the Mega version) HATES this thing.

 

[Banryu]

I guess the question here is how much deduction do you give something that's very weak until it evolves, and/or how much is in its favor by being very capable when evolving?

IMO Tyrunt and Ralts in addition to Inkay definitely face this issue. But whereas the two Psychic-types evolve about level 30 or so, Tyrunt has to soldier on for a LOT longer. I really tried making good use of the little bugger, but having to wait until almost level 40 is a LONG time to babysit something that slow and fragile (at least, mine wasn't able to tank hits well at all; I suppose that could just the downside of him being Gentle). I DID love how strong his Crunch was at such a relatively-low level, but even against things he should have wrecked, like wild Sigilyphs, my Tyrunt really struggled.

And I know from other peoples' accounts that Tyrantrum is great and really picks up the slack once you get to him, but that's exactly the issue-- getting to Tyrantrum in the first place. IMO this makes Tyrunt closer to B-tier than A-tier.

But again, I didn't stick with it long enough to reap the results. What do people who used Tyrunt think about the evolutionary waiting period? How much should that affect his rank?

 

[Red G]

Tyrunt took some babying, I agree, but his Bite is powerful, and he gets a nice set of TMs. The only problem is lack of Rock and Dragon STAB for a while, and his lower defense. I could see either A or B tier, but I edge towards A. Tyrunt is still quite useful before evolving and after evolving Tyrantrum is incredible. Earthquake, Crunch, and Dragon Claw are the only three moves you need to OHKO or 2HKO most things, so you can throw an HM on him to help your in-game run. He's a great pokemon. He evolves at level 39, not 40, by the way.

Name: Litleo - B or C Tier
Availability: Route 22, before the first gym. This is one of the earliest pokemon you can get.
Stats: Litleo is primarily a speedy mixed attacker, though it prefers special. Base 72 speed & base 73 special attack is pretty good so early in the game. When it evolves, Pyroar has 106 speed & 109 special attack, though it's defenses are average (~70). One problem is it's possible ability, Rivalry. When facing an opposite-gendered pokemon, attacking stats are lowered by 25%. When facing a same-gendered pokemon, Pyroar gets a nice boost but this is a very unreliable ability overall, so hope you get an Unnerve Litleo.
Typing: Normal typing is both a blessing and a curse. Obviously normal STAB, especially so early on, is fantastic, but there are a ton of fighting typed pokemon. Litleo/Pyroar won't take SE hits from fighting types well. Fire typing is excellent, as there are not a whole lot of water/rock types in Kalos.
Movepool: Decent movepool. Litleo starts with STAB Ember (at level 5), Work Up at 8, and STAB Headbutt at 11, which is wonderful. However, you don't get a boost until Flamethrower at level 36 (at which point Litleo evolves). Being a special attacker, there are not many useful early TMs for Litleo. Pyroar gets Hyper Voice at 48, but until then you're stuck with Echoed Voice for normal STAB. So basically: excellent early game, mediocre to bad mid game, then good late game once you get Hyper Voice.
Major Battles: Does really well against the first gym, doesn't solo it though due to Vivillion's defenses. Has a rough time at the next two gyms, then dominates Ramos. Gyms 5-7 are all okay for Pyroar, nothing great but it's not a bad match-up. Pyroar sweeps Wulfric (except for Cryogonal). Pyroar beats one of the E4, loses to two, neutral to the fourth, and does fine versus the Champion & your rival. You need a balanced team, you can't solo with Pyroar.
Additional Comments: Good speed & special attack, good early game STABS, late game but powerful STABs, and lowish TM usability makes Pyroar/Litleo a decidedly average pokemon. Super-early availibility makes me lean towards "B".

 

[TheKAM1993]

Litleo CAN solo Viola. Potions exist and you are certain to have Work Up already. Work Up + Headbutt destroys her.