Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Ilan]

No he isn't. there is this really fun move named sludge wave that gets around bulletproof. yes, only DW ghastly's can have sludge wave, but it makes an amazing replacement for sludge bomb. then you have psychic, which is super effective against chesnaught due to its fighting type, and you can breed it for HP Fire, which is also super effective. and i can probably come up with four or five more moves that allow MGengar to two shot chesnaught, moves that it might want to run anyways, depending on what you need it to kill.

Most gengars will run those moves he is immune to and hp fire is so weak no gengar would use that unless you really hate scizor who kills you anyway. Which move is stronger sludge wave or sludge bomb? I am not sure.. He still can wall those sub protect ones

 

[Chazman]

Most gengars will run those moves he is immune to and hp fire is so weak no gengar would use that unless you really hate scizor who kills you anyway. Which move is stronger sludge wave or sludge bomb? I am not sure.. He still can wall those sub protect ones

but heres the thing, thanks to how big gengars mover set is, you never know what moves he is bringing to the table. Remember, he is the ultimate assassin. If your team gets walled by Chesnaught, your Gengar will have exactly what it needs to take that thing down. and sludge wave is better. has a slightly higher BP, is AOE and ignores bulletproof.

 

[MagicMissingno]

but heres the thing, thanks to how big gengars mover set is, you never know what moves he is bringing to the table. Remember, he is the ultimate assassin. If your team gets walled by Chesnaught, your Gengar will have exactly what it needs to take that thing down. and sludge wave is better. has a slightly higher BP, is AOE and ignores bulletproof.

If your team gets walled by Chesnaught then grab a flying/fire/fairy/psychic/ghost type and hit him with a special attack. MGengar doesn't even need to waste his time with that.

 

[Ilan]

but heres the thing, thanks to how big gengars mover set is, you never know what moves he is bringing to the table. Remember, he is the ultimate assassin. If your team gets walled by Chesnaught, your Gengar will have exactly what it needs to take that thing down. and sludge wave is better. has a slightly higher BP, is AOE and ignores bulletproof.

Oh sludge wave is the stronger one then not such a good idea to use chesnaught.. No gengae will use psychic since it got no special coverage.. Anyway so far I did not have trouble with him but I stand at 1650 rating in pokebank so idk

 

[Chazman]

Oh sludge wave is the stronger one then not such a good idea to use chesnaught.. No gengae will use psychic since it got no special coverage.. Anyway so far I did not have trouble with him but I stand at 1650 rating in pokebank so idk

and we were advised to leave PS results out of this. most of the players currently using him in pokebank OU or even regular OU are using him as a special sweeper, which is not the role he is being considered for banning in, nor is it the role he is designed to play. Smogon is considering banning him under the support clause, where in he makes it too easy for the rest of his team to sweep for a win.

If your team gets walled by Chesnaught then grab a flying/fire/fairy/psychic/ghost type and hit him with a special attack. MGengar doesn't even need to waste his time with that.

There is also that. I was just trying to explain that MGengar can two shot chesnaught if it really has to.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Sorry for not really adding anything new to the table but 60/80/95 isn't what I consider frail, I see people stating that M-Gengar is so frail that any "strong" attack would OHKO it when that's not simply the case. 4/0 M-Gengar lives CB Scizor BP, even after SR damage. I'm not exactly calling it bulky by any means but it's bulkier than what most people think.

Also I really can't vote yet since I haven't had much experience in the current metagame, and voting without at least testing M-Gengar out is no good. Though base on theorymon alone I would have to say that M-Gengar is broken, based around the fact that one can customized their M-Gengar in multiple efficient ways (especially with its massive movepool) to their team needs and take out certain threats that can threaten the rest of their team.

But there has been instances that theorymon hasn't panned out the way one would think, (Looking at the Kyurem-B test) so who knows if this is one of those instances? And maybe this is just me sounding retarded again but due to team preview can't most people anticipate what kinda of team structure your opponent has and base on that tell what M-Gengar set it could be? Though even with that said, just the fact that your opponent has a Mega Gengar would leave you to play in a certain way where you play more predictably. I don't know. :/

 

[Shroomisaur]

It should have three options.
1. Yes, quickban.
2. No, suspect test.
3. No, leave it alone.

You don't understand. The whole reason we're discussing a quickban is to eliminate the time that would be wasted with a suspect test since the council would almost assuredly find it worthy of Ubers anyway. That's why I hoped this post by Lee would get added to the OP where people could see it. I'm certainly in favor of speeding up the tiering process. There's no reason to have a suspect test just to say that we did.

Can people stop advocating a suspect test on the grounds that we 'may as well' or 'just in case.' A quickban is not done solely because a Pokemon is so overwhelmingly powerful that it needs to be removed from the metagame with immediate effect.

It's done because the powers-that-be are utterly confident that a suspect test would only give the exact same result. Trust me when I say that suspect tests require an immense amount of time, effort, energy and man-hours and cause considerable disruption across the whole community.

I've actively participated in or closely followed (as a moderator) almost every suspect test that Smogon has ever organised and I can say from the reactions in this thread that the writing is most certainly on the wall; a suspect test at this stage will end in a Mega-Gengar ban. I imagine the Council, in their infinite wisdom, are similarly sure and would rather not go through the hassle of a tedious suspect test unless they absolutely have to. Don't advocate a test 'just because.'

 

[Photofluid]

after reading several post, I think Mgengar is indeed a worth ban, being a stall player, shadow tag with 170SpA and Ghost STAB by itself is already a huge concern the moment I see it. And with the high offensive stats, choice items/LO/leftover is not as necessary as it thinks. And afterall I was not even realizing the vast utility moves it possess.

On the other hand, another thing that I guess many people have overlooked is its immunity to toxic, which makes it even harder to deal with as a stall team, certainly its now extremely fragile against EQ, but for stall teams it don't really make the differences. Taking damage from spikes is nice, but nowhere enough to justify shadow tag. Trading 1 to 1 for a stall team is already a huge loss in most scenario, taking away more than that is disastrous

And for those who argue that shadow tag takes a free turn to do its job, I would argue that M gengar is never difficult to switch in with the immunity to toxic and it ability as a spin-blocker.

One thing I must admit though, is that preparing against Mega Gengar takes surprisingly less efforts, but perish song and destiny bond was not exactly taken into account in the process. If baton pass is sufficient to make Blaziken a quick ban instead of debatable, having access to two extra variety is huge.

Some tests may have to be done to justify the ban, but I would predict that it will be banned eventually.

Ou by far because of bullet punch sczior and lucario with sd focus sash alakazam cam revenge it mega pinsir quick attack chesnaught mind game. And other. Legend boosted choice scarf and ditto. Choice scarf Latios can Ohko gengar mega with psychic. So much to counter. In ubers choice scarf darkrai gratin a and etc beat this so I think mega gengar should be ou because I can alway deal with it. Also big bad talonflame

All the thing you mentioned only occurs to offensive teams, stall teams pass by and say hi

 

[escarlata]

Took a long time to read 666 posts in front of me. My point of view is that MGengar is too broken in OU. For anti-ban people, there are a few points being thrown around.

I'm just going to look at each of the counter-ban argument and say how absurd they are.

1. MGengar takes a turn to gain Shadow Tag which the opponent can switch to whatever he wants

To begin off, there is the assumption that the Gengar player is doing nothing in the turn before it MEvos. So you can switch to something that checks MGengar? Well, Gengar can always Sub or PerishTrap. Now let's look at a list of stuff that can pick off a MGengar. Against anything with access to Pursuit, don't worry, you still have a sub there to tank the pursuit for you. Additionally, not much Pokemon can actually outspeed Gengar with its base 130 Spd stat so it will have to eat at least 1 attack off a base 170 SAtk stat. Before someone quote me and say that the attack might not OHKO, you don't have to. There is this thing called switching which you can do and your opponent cannot unless they run one of those specific moves. The sub also allows Gengar to know something is scarfed because you literally can count with 1 hand how many Pokemons actually outspeed it. Let's not assume the only thing Gengar from MEvo got was Shadow Tag, the 20 base Spd increase is a huge boon in itself. From there, guess what? You got a good match up against one of your opponent's Pokemon AND Gengar with Shadow Tag is ready to pick off the Pokemon it originally switched in to take on.

2. MGengar cannot sweep a team

Of course it cannot sweep a team, but neither can any of the other 718 Pokemons. Every Pokemon has its counters for obvious reasons. YOU ARE PLAYING 6V6, NOT GENGAR VS 6! What MGengar does is not to sweep a team, unlike stuff like MKangaskhan. MGengar is a wallbreaker, and the BEST wall breaker in fact.
If that is not convincing enough maybe I should give examples

• Let's look at Talonflame, one of the most influential sweepers in the metagame, who is notably stopped by Tyranitar, Gliscor, Rotoms. The thing about MGengar is how easy it is able to bait in Tyranitar, Perish Song on the switch, Protect, Sub (Or Disable if you protected against Pursuit), then switch to something like Lucario or Terrakion to eat the other attack, from which Tyranitar dies from Perish Song. Lets say if your opponent has a Gliscor on the same team, you can then come in on the obvious Toxic or something, then Protect, disable the Earthquake, and Perish Song it to death again with the same trick. Now you can watch your Talonflame demolish the rest of your opponent's team with their answers to it gone.

MGengar is fantastic as a wallbreaker simply because there is no wall that can outspeed it to hit it instead of a Sub on the PerishTrapper set. If just 1 Pokemon makes an entire playstyle unviable, it should be banned, because Blissey/Skarm/Ferrothorn/Jellicent should not be going to UU or BL.

3. Only the Perish Trapper set is broken and it's not even released yet

Nope. I currently tried the Taunt+DBond set because of pre-bank, and it is not that much less broken as a wallbreaker. The fact that you can trap a wall OF YOUR CHOICE and make it lose its reliable recovery is strong. Anything that has can KO MGengar 1-on-1 is KO-ed by Destiny Bond, or MGengar can always switch into something else after a Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond > Switch always a viable way to escape from Pursuit Trappers, and at the worst, it is still a 1-to-1 trade. (most likely a 1-to-2 trade because Pursuit Trappers only can switch in after something gets KO-ed.) After that, you still broke down the wall you want, so you still can sweep with your sweeper thanks to MGengar breaking down that crucial obstacle.

And not only that either. A Sub + 3 Attacks set is equally devastating because you can customize what your team needs to defeat. RSF has that post on how it defeats 7/9 of the metagame itself or something, if anti-banners didn't see it.

In essence, MGengar is broken not because of 1 set, but the fact that it can run many set that have different checks and serve difference purposes WITH ALMOST GUARANTEED SUCCESS.

4. VoltTurn, Shed Shell etc

When MGengar comes in to trap something, the Gengar user chooses which to trap, not the victim. Sure you can have 1 or 2 Pokemon with VoltTurn/Shed Shell etc in your team, but MGengar can always prey on the other 2 without. If you happened to make your entire team carry Shed Shell, you suddenly because at a huge disadvantage against other team archetypes.

5. Priority kills it

Citations please. I'm sure even 252+ Sharp Beak Talonflame's Brave Bird doesn't OHKO's min/min MGengar, anyway, I wouldn't keep Gengar in on something I can't kill of course.
EDIT:@below 252+ Atk Sky Plate Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-268 (87.3 - 102.6%)

6. MKhan kill it

Against all out attacker, maybe yes, but it can always switch out. Realise that Gengar can always switch out, unlike the opponent. Sub-Disable always wins MKhan, Destiny Bond > Focus Blast lets you win 70% of the time, PerishTrap wins 50% of the time (double protect). Again, I'm not gonna send my MGengar in on anything that I'm sure I can't beat anyway, so the xxx beats it argument is invalid.

7. 4MSS

It does not have 4MSS, it is just unpredictable. When it comes in, you won't know what to expect from it, a wrong prediction could put you in deep trouble. On the other hand, the Gengar player requires much less prediction to get into an advantageous position. Let's look at the things each Gengar set can do to adapt around most things it face. Note that these are just a list of examples of things Gengar can adapt around to ease his prediction, while making it harder for the opponent. Just a reference for what I myself would do.

Hide

Perish Song/Sub/Protect/Disable:

Obviously against a wall that cannot do anything against Gengar, you can go for Perish Song right away, and essentially anything that switches in without a priority hitting more than 75% is dead thanks to Protect > Substitute > switch.

If the switch-in is a Pursuiter/Volt-turner, you can always Sub > Disable > switch
If the switch-in is something that is faster and can hit more than 75%, just run, because there isn't any that carries Pursuit.

Against an offensive team, you obviously do not come in on something that outright KO's Gengar. The fact that you are switching your Gengar to an offensive Pokemon either means you already took down the main wall to your sweep. If that's the case, you can always go for a Sub 1st, to scout for a switch.
If opponent switches, you Perish Song and repeat the ^
If opponent stays and uses something to break the Sub, just run away.

Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Taunt/Destiny Bond:

You might have to see if your opponent has anything that has Pursuit. If so, go for a Destiny Bond in preparation for the switch in, which allows you to at least take down the pursuitor with you. Or you can go for the Taunt if the opponent is vulnerable to Taunt, or if the opponent is likely to switch in a faster status user. Or else, you just use whatever coverage move to hit.

Against something offensive which is sweeping your team, and you just want to revenge kill it, just go for the Destiny Bond, or use a Shadow Ball/Focus Blast to KO it if you are saving Destiny Bond for something else. Still, note that if somehow, you are forced to switch out, you will be able to trap whatever you need already.

Sub + 3 Attacks:

This one is more self explanatory. You always can come in on something of your choice that you need to kill, go for the Sub and see if he stays. If he stays and break your Sub, just go ahead and kill it. If he switches, you can choose to get a switch or get up to 2 free hits on the switch-in. If he switches into a pursuit user, you can run with the sub up. Next time, you can trap whatever you want to trap the 1st time round.

Bottom line is: it deserves a ban

 

[javimgol]

I don't know how you calculate but with 0 EVs in Def or HP but my MegaGengar is always killed by a a Talonflame (priority Brave Bird), or, in general, any strong attack than can hit him.

 

[Chazman]

I don't know how you calculate but with 0 EVs in Def or HP but my MegaGengar is always killed by a a Talonflame (priority Brave Bird), or, in general, any strong attack than can hit him.

and you are completely missing the point. anything can be killed. however, with MGengar its always either a 2 or 1 for 1 exchange, in the gengar players favor as he just took out your answer to his sweeper. congrats. you killed gengar. however, since he already took out the wall that stops my sweeper, my sweeper can now safely set up and win me the game. and yes, this is how it will play out. talonflame can only switch in to MGengar after either a VoltTurn/Baton Pass or MGengar kills what it is fighting.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Gengarite should be quickbanned because it has, in the strict sense of the word, no counters. Shadow Tag prevents you from switching in pokemon that beat Mega Gengar one on one. Gengar will come in on a pokemon it can kill, leaving you only able to bring in your answer to Gengar after it kills one of your pokemon. After this it can switch out accordingly, and likely repeat this process multiple times per match, unless your whole team beats Mega Gengar 1vs1 which is rather unlikely to say the least. Pursuit users die to Destiny Bond, meaning you must sacrifice one of your pokes guaranteed if you want to beat Mega Gengar with Pursuit. Priority moves can only force it out, not prevent it from trapping the pokes that can't handle Mega Gengar, which is in fact, the reason Gengarite is broken. I think we can agree that it's not the base stats and typing that push Mega Gengar over the edge, but it's ability Shadow Tag, and consequently, the item Gengarite.

 

[yoman5]

Alright, this post isn't going to be for or against mega gengar. I'm just going to throw out a call for legitimatr discussion. earlier on in the thread we had a good back and forth with each person reading the others' posts thoroughly before responding, and now a lot of the posts are "omfg its clearly broken get an argument that works, you have none." and "no, i can beat it at x ladder ranking therefore it's not broken."

now not every post is like this, but a lot of them are, and theyre not conducive to progressing in the discussion about gengarite's effect on the meta.

 

[Stone RG]

I think ill just remind the anti ban guys what were debating here, tho i dont know if we can call this a debate anymore, rofl

So lets focus on the question: if Gengar gets suspect tested, does anyone actually think he'll remain OU?

No, nobody in their right mind, knowing how the Suspect Test works, would think that the Gengarite has a snowball in hell of a chance to stay in OU. Anybody with NO knowledge on the current metagame can go read the last 5 Pages of the Thread and know that the anti-ban has offered vague and repetitive points at best in comparison to the pro ban, and they will know that using a month on this crap is wasting everyone's time.

 

[FalSeraph]

man gengar is so amazing, he can run shadow ball, sludge bomb, focus blast, dazzling gleam, sub, protect, taunt, destiny bond all in the same set! no he can't.

He doesn't have to. Keep in mind that M-Gengar can be running any 4 of those moves (plus a good deal more,) and that he will be sent out against something he can trap and kill. With 156 HP EV's, neither LO Brave Aegislash Shadow Sneak, CB Adamant Scizor Bullet Punch, nor LO Adamant Talonflame Brave Bird will OHKO it.

Shadow Trap is what makes M-Gengar so broken, almost the entire element of prediction is removed. Even if you're carrying a Pursuit trapper to revenge kill, with 130 Base Spd. and 170 Base SAtk. he may very well be able to Destiny Bond, Protect/Disable, or outright OHKO you.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

This thread has derailed into a guy who just joined this thread saying "in my experience Mega Gengar isn't that strong and it's easily killed, it's a bad sweeper, omg, stay in OU..." and the rest of everyone else then has to convince him that Mega Gengar is a. not a sweeper b. is a support mon c. has no counters. Then after that guy realizes how good Mega Gengar is somebody else says "in my experience Mega Gengar isn't that strong and it's easily killed, it's a bad sweeper, omg, stay in OU..." and then the rest of everyone else then has to convince him that Mega Gengar is a. not a sweeper b. is a support mon c. has no counters. Then after that guy realizes how good Mega Gengar is somebody else says....

 

[GriffinTheGreat]

With Sub/Protect/Disable/Perish Song, I am easily able to knock 3+ Pokemon out of the match with some basic prediction skills. You don't even need the 170 SpA to have one of the deadliest 'mons in the game.

 

[Flamebot]

Destiny bond, subsitute, Perish song, Shadowball kills praticaly anything that doesn't have priority(even if they do it's iffy)
It looses levitate sure, but what is an EQ gonna do to Mega Gengar when he is behind a subsite?

I think it should be banned.
The problem is tho, if your opponent expects you to mega evolce they can switch in something that can resist your attacks and KO you.
Shadowtag is deadly, as it keeps them trapped for 1 turn even if you switch out or Die(I believe) but levatitate avoids spikes so idk.

This actaully seems like it could do well in ubers, actually better than it does in ou(I assume) but in OU it's definently a threat, but I don't know if it should be banned or not tho.

Tho if this thing recieves a baton pass if it had already mega evolved and you switched it, and set up and baton passed to mega gengar, you can pratically sweep and win right there.

This things move pool is scary, you never know what it is running and that is scary. But again, I'm not sure if it should be banned. But as I stated I think it would do pretty well in ubers. Anyways yeah these are just my thoughts.

 

[Ajwf]

Unfortunately, I feel like I'm in court saying "I rest my case." There's nothing left to say and recently the inability to refute points has become obvious. This discussion is basically over, having had most every opinion voiced, though some not responded to, and enough discussion that should the good posts be put in a vacuum, an informed decision can be made on the potential banning of the gengarite.

It seems like the pro-ban group all is in a similar boat. We've made our points and are waiting for some response to refute them. Unfortunately, the degrading arguments are just product of the lack of worthy content to discuss. Perhaps some feedback of those who matter is required for this thread to continue any farther, or maybe for this thread simply to be ended. Anyone with an opinion who needed to make their voice heard has had the opportunity to do so.

 

[0urher0nik0]

mega gengar is fairly predictable imo. easy to predict when he will mega evolve. the only strong aspect his his revenge kill ability, but most special walls can deal with him just fine.

Hell i've been running chesnaught and i have not lost a single game because of mega gengar

 

[AOPSUser]

mega gengar is fairly predictable imo. easy to predict when he will mega evolve. the only strong aspect his his revenge kill ability, but most special walls can deal with him just fine.

Hell i've been running chesnaught and i have not lost a single game because of mega gengar

I'll repeat a post I made about Blaziken:

Who cares if something is predictable if you can't stop it, it's like knowing a bomb will fall on your house in one second and it will be destroyed--you know it'll happen, but you're still powerless to stop it.

You're not losing to Mega Gengar, but you are probably losing to the Talonflame/Lucario/(insert generic sweeper here) that set up on your team after your counter to that mon was killed my Mega Gengar.

Also Chesnaught is a really bad answer to Mega Gengar, not only can it do nothing to Mega Gengar, Mega Gengar can use stuff like Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire pre-Pokebank. Plus whenever I see Chesnaught come into my Mega Gengar I go to Talonflame and set up a sweep.

 

[Aubade]

Mega Gengar's skillset is a little too good to have Shadow Tag alongside it. Even though the trapping moves are nerfed, Gengar can transform&revenge kill a pokemon, or 2hko a switch in easily. Anything trying to counter it with sucker punch can be shut down by taunt, Destiny Bond and Gengar's speed virtually ensures it'll never lose momentum for the team.

The problem is you have to play well to use it well, but that shouldn't matter. Gengar, if played correctly, will always get 1-2 kills and some damage out before it goes down with no opportunity for the opponent to counter it save rare non normal/fighting priority moves. Taunt, Torment, Destiny Bond. Trapping. Huge speed and SATK. Pretty much perfect coverage. All of these skills together allows Gengar to fill three roles on a team rather than one, as a sweeper, anti-support and revenge killer.

 

[Fear the Bear]

Made an account to vote.

Originally was expecting to vote to keep mega Gengar in OU however the lack of substance in the arguments in the "keep" glaringly obvious, while the "remove" camp has made extremely good points which haven't really been responded to. It seems that the only real choice is send him to ubers where he will be just fine.

 

[ThePhalanx]

This thread has derailed into a guy who just joined this thread saying "in my experience Mega Gengar isn't that strong and it's easily killed, it's a bad sweeper, omg, stay in OU..." and the rest of everyone else then has to convince him that Mega Gengar is a. not a sweeper b. is a support mon c. has no counters. Then after that guy realizes how good Mega Gengar is somebody else says "in my experience Mega Gengar isn't that strong and it's easily killed, it's a bad sweeper, omg, stay in OU..." and then the rest of everyone else then has to convince him that Mega Gengar is a. not a sweeper b. is a support mon c. has no counters. Then after that guy realizes how good Mega Gengar is somebody else says....

This is certainly true. At the beginning of this thread, I voted "no," mainly due to personal experience (it can't sweep omg). I regret that vote now after actually reading people's arguments on the situation. I expected the arguments for 'keep' to be more pronounced, but then I realized I don't really have an argument for it staying OU anyway... so I vote yes to quickban.

 

[AquaBass]

I believe that although its ability isn't active till the turn after it mega evolves its stats become enough to over come anything it switches into and then take advantage of its effect right away. Mega Gengar was given to much power and although people were posting the modest/timid natures and their %'s it doesn't matter it stands that Mega Gengar can switch on almost any wall and destroy it and then take advantage of its effect. Although as we've seen in previous formats where pokemon who become a standard in every team eventually develop hate and then the community plays a check for that pokemon but even then the only real options are priority pokemon and you either waste a pokemon because you dont want to switch in and die or you waste the pokemon switching in. As this format is in its developmental stage I think it should be banned for now the meta of course always flips things around like in Gen 4 when Garchomp and latios and latias were running around for a bit then got hit.