Other Bulky Offense-- the King of XY(?)

[Pidgey Airlines]

I can agree with this.
I found myself shifting my (ingame) team continously to bulkier 'mon until I ended up with:
Ferrothorn / Donphan / Barbaracle / Volcarona / Goodra + Mega Kangaskhan//Gyarados
Which, statistically speaking, deals a great job.

Along the path I got rid of multi-hazards-users and even old God tier glass cannons like Blaziken or Alakazam.

Maybe bank again allows more aggressive teams due to better coverage options, time will tell.

 

[Psylink]

Chou Toshio I never really had a good understanding I guess. So let me clarify, Bulky Offense is a team full of bulky, yet slow, sweepers and hazard setters, and Semi-Stall is a stall core that supports three HO Pokemon?

 

[Chou Toshio]

^That's correct, though bulky offensive Pokemon don't have to be slow.

The two styles both emerged in DP OU, with Bulky Offense being dominant for several swaths of DP's metagame, and Semi-Stall being born near the tail end. To clarify, Bulky Offense can sometimes contain 1 frail sweeper, 2 max, but usually everything is bulky-- though not necessarily slow. Pokemon like Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Latias, and Landorus-I epitomize bulky offense, and are fast (or at least WERE fast... I don't know if you can still call them that...). Deoxys-S and Starmie are also both fast Pokemon with just enough bulk to potentially fit this style.

brief history lesson on DPP bulky offense / semi-stall teams

Typical DP Bulky Offense (Pre-Platinum, about the time those teams emerged):
Metagross, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Starmie, Zapdos, Salamence
^The feared "dual dragon" that evolved to hammer Cresselia to let Garchomp sweep. lol Salamence and Zapdos were two of the meta's fastest Pokemon at the time... Initially, bulky offense evolved as a way to abuse Garchomp's strengths, but became even more prevalent after Garchomp was banned, giving birth to DP OU's first "Grass / Water / Fire" cores, and looking something like this:

Typical DPP Bulky Offense (Early-Platinum):
Swampert, Heatran, Celebi, Rotom-H, Scizor, Latias (or Salamence)
^There was a short point in the Platinum metagame where almost every single team looked like this. Swampert might have been switched out for another bulky water type (Suicune, Starmie, Vaporeon, Tentacruel, or Gyarados), in which case the team's Dragon-type would become Flygon and Heatran would use SR. Rotom-H might be swapped for Zapdos (but Zapdos use was at an all time low...), and Jirachi or Tyranitar might squeeze in there somewhere.


Semi-stall evolved from Hazard-stacking heavy offensive teams near the tail end of the Platinum metagame, though probably before HG/SS came out. Hazard stacking heavy offense had truly suffered since Deo-S's banning, until players developed this style-- no one had ever though of Skarmory/Foretress as offensive mons until "semi-stall" was born. However, without Custap berry, Skarmory and Foretress couldn't just go on a massive hazard laying frenzy-- they needed more time, and more switches to set hazards in a more organic, traditional-stall kind of way. So they were paired with a Special Wall + Rotom-A (Heat or Wash, basically same Ghost/Electric mon except choose between H-Pump or Overheat). This stall core set up the hazards and weakened the enemies in order to allow offensive mons to sweep.

Typical Semi-Stall appearing late DPP:
Skarmory, Tyranitar (or Blissey), Rotom-W, SD Lucario, DD Salamence (or DD Dragonite, post Salamence ban), Scarf Flygon

Skarm throws up spikes and SR until it nose bleeds, TTar (or Blissey) handles the Special threats, Rotom guards the hazards (remember, it's a Ghost type in DPP), and Lucario/Mence set up for the kill, with Flygon covering their asses, acting as an offensive pivot, and also looking for its own chance to sweep.

Looking back at the history, and looking at the current meta-- personally, I think Heavy Offense dominates in XY.

In the DPP era, the Pokemon on these HO teams were typically 3-4 HKO'd at best by HO mons at the time. They were definitive "TANKS", able to last several turns of abuse while throwing out powerful attacks of their own.

NOW with Pokemon as bulky as Garchomp (who is still one of OU's bulkies mons just based on base stats) and Landorus-I being 1-2 HKO'd by priority moves, even if you tell me everything is "bulkier" the metagame (Pokebank), the game feels like ANGRY HEAVY OFFENSE ON STEROIDS.

Even if the typical Pokemon of the metagame like Azumarril, Rotom-W, Kanghaskan, Aegislash, etc. are bulkier Pokemon statistically, if said bulky Pokemon are on a mad dash to KILL OR BE KILLED in a few turns, to me, that is a Heavy Offense metagame-- because of play style. The fact that those Pokemon are statistically bulky is just anecdotal.

 

[Sazoon]

^That's correct, though bulky offensive Pokemon don't have to be slow.

The two styles both emerged in DP OU, with Bulky Offense being dominant for several swaths of DP's metagame, and Semi-Stall being born near the tail end. To clarify, Bulky Offense can sometimes contain 1 frail sweeper, 2 max, but usually everything is bulky-- though not necessarily slow. Pokemon like Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Latias, and Landorus-I epitomize bulky offense, and are fast (or at least WERE fast... I don't know if you can still call them that...). Deoxys-S and Starmie are also both fast Pokemon with just enough bulk to potentially fit this style.

brief history lesson on DPP bulky offense / semi-stall teams

Typical DP Bulky Offense (Pre-Platinum, about the time those teams emerged):
Metagross, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Starmie, Zapdos, Salamence
^The feared "dual dragon" that evolved to hammer Cresselia to let Garchomp sweep. lol Salamence and Zapdos were two of the meta's fastest Pokemon at the time... Initially, bulky offense evolved as a way to abuse Garchomp's strengths, but became even more prevalent after Garchomp was banned, giving birth to DP OU's first "Grass / Water / Fire" cores, and looking something like this:

Typical DPP Bulky Offense (Early-Platinum):
Swampert, Heatran, Celebi, Rotom-H, Scizor, Latias (or Salamence)
^There was a short point in the Platinum metagame where almost every single team looked like this. Swampert might have been switched out for another bulky water type (Suicune, Starmie, Vaporeon, Tentacruel, or Gyarados), in which case the team's Dragon-type would become Flygon and Heatran would use SR. Rotom-H might be swapped for Zapdos (but Zapdos use was at an all time low...), and Jirachi or Tyranitar might squeeze in there somewhere.


Semi-stall evolved from Hazard-stacking heavy offensive teams near the tail end of the Platinum metagame, though probably before HG/SS came out. Hazard stacking heavy offense had truly suffered since Deo-S's banning, until players developed this style-- no one had ever though of Skarmory/Foretress as offensive mons until "semi-stall" was born. However, without Custap berry, Skarmory and Foretress couldn't just go on a massive hazard laying frenzy-- they needed more time, and more switches to set hazards in a more organic, traditional-stall kind of way. So they were paired with a Special Wall + Rotom-A (Heat or Wash, basically same Ghost/Electric mon except choose between H-Pump or Overheat). This stall core set up the hazards and weakened the enemies in order to allow offensive mons to sweep.

Typical Semi-Stall appearing late DPP:
Skarmory, Tyranitar (or Blissey), Rotom-W, SD Lucario, DD Salamence (or DD Dragonite, post Salamence ban), Scarf Flygon

Skarm throws up spikes and SR until it nose bleeds, TTar (or Blissey) handles the Special threats, Rotom guards the hazards (remember, it's a Ghost type in DPP), and Lucario/Mence set up for the kill, with Flygon covering their asses, acting as an offensive pivot, and also looking for its own chance to sweep.

Looking back at the history, and looking at the current meta-- personally, I think Heavy Offense dominates in XY.

In the DPP era, the Pokemon on these HO teams were typically 3-4 HKO'd at best by HO mons at the time. They were definitive "TANKS", able to last several turns of abuse while throwing out powerful attacks of their own.

NOW with Pokemon as bulky as Garchomp (who is still one of OU's bulkies mons just based on base stats) and Landorus-I being 1-2 HKO'd by priority moves, even if you tell me everything is "bulkier" the metagame (Pokebank), the game feels like ANGRY HEAVY OFFENSE ON STEROIDS.

Even if the typical Pokemon of the metagame like Azumarril, Rotom-W, Kanghaskan, Aegislash, etc. are bulkier Pokemon statistically, if said bulky Pokemon are on a mad dash to KILL OR BE KILLED in a few turns, to me, that is a Heavy Offense metagame-- because of play style. The fact that those Pokemon are statistically bulky is just anecdotal.

Are you saying that when pokebank comes out, the metagame will shift to a far more hyper offensive metagame?

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Not shift, already IS. I'm talking about the Pokebank metagame we already have on Showdown (which honestly, is more important than non-bank beta that'll get to exist for a few more weeks).

The point is that while many people believe XY's OU is "bulky offense" because most of the Pokemon are bulkier, these "bulkier" offensive teams all play more like traditional Hyper Offense than traditional bulky offense-- killing enemies and getting killed off remarkably easy despite their bulk.

We haven't transitioned from gatling guns to tanks-- we're just playing with bigger, bulkier gatling guns.

 

[Rofellos]

I'm excited with new Pokemon like goodra and trevenant. It's almost like game freak wanted it this way. Speaking of this play style I want to see how the new grass ghosts gourgeist and trevenant work out. The former for it super size stat spread and the latter for its access to nearly never ending subs and curses.

 

[SpaceFlare]

I'm excited with new Pokemon like goodra and trevenant. It's almost like game freak wanted it this way. Speaking of this play style I want to see how the new grass ghosts gourgeist and trevenant work out. The former for it super size stat spread and the latter for its access to nearly never ending subs and curses.

I've found Gourgeist to actually work really well with Tyranitar in terms of defensive synergy. His ability to block Excadrill's Rapid Spin is also nice to have. Well he'll be able to do that until Excadrills start packing Shadow Claw for the spooky plants.

 

[Rofellos]

Which could become a possibility. I've seen excadrills not carry xscissor anymore In favor of stronger steel moves for fairies like iron head so shadow claw will just add to new utility options. Fairies especially like azumarill have the right bulk and priority to fight the new ghosts too. But I'm wondering that with the new popularity of defog coming up I wonder if folks will drop spinners in favor of defog users. Because my thinking is this, if I'm running a bulky offense I'm counting more on my team members to tank hits and fire powerful returns without initially needing hazards beyond stealth rock. But not sure what everyone else thinks.

 

[SpaceFlare]

Entry hazards are still useful enough, but with the emergence of Defog, Ghosts for blocking Rapid Spin become less and less important.

Having strong hazard setters that can stay alive and force switches while also packing a punch (think Mamoswine, Landorus-T, etc) are what will mostly be seen around imo. The hazard damage really helps when coupled with a mixed attacking wallbreaker.

 

[sidakarya]

Which could become a possibility. I've seen excadrills not carry xscissor anymore In favor of stronger steel moves for fairies like iron head so shadow claw will just add to new utility options. Fairies especially like azumarill have the right bulk and priority to fight the new ghosts too. But I'm wondering that with the new popularity of defog coming up I wonder if folks will drop spinners in favor of defog users. Because my thinking is this, if I'm running a bulky offense I'm counting more on my team members to tank hits and fire powerful returns without initially needing hazards beyond stealth rock. But not sure what everyone else thinks.

Rapid Spin still has its uses; it removes hazards on your side while preserving the ones on the opponent's.

 

[Rofellos]

Well personally Im kinda thinking of running skarmory defog without taking a rapid spinner, I dunno perhaps it's sounds crazy since we all need a spinner but I'm just tryin to argue on whether a defogger or a spinner takes a spot

 

[Sazoon]

^Not shift, already IS. I'm talking about the Pokebank metagame we already have on Showdown (which honestly, is more important than non-bank beta that'll get to exist for a few more weeks).

The point is that while many people believe XY's OU is "bulky offense" because most of the Pokemon are bulkier, these "bulkier" offensive teams all play more like traditional Hyper Offense than traditional bulky offense-- killing enemies and getting killed off remarkably easy despite their bulk.

We haven't transitioned from gatling guns to tanks-- we're just playing with bigger, bulkier gatling guns.

Sorry, I knew about pokebank and that it's a thing on showdown. What I meant was is the difference between current ou and pokebank ou that pokebank is much more hyper offensive.

 

[Rofellos]

Possibly, poke bank brings in the lati twins heatran therian forms and whatnot but that doesn't meant x and y isn't prepared to handle the coming threats. Goodra in particular if given an assaut vest is going to be a giant block in the road.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Honestly the metagame seems to favour VoltTurn and Offensive Pivoting over traditional Set-up-and-sweep or Nuke Em all HO. With Defog removing Hazards allowing for more freedom while switching, Genesect back in Pokebank OU, and Rotom-W being as strong as it is in the current meta, VoltTurn is stronger than ever.

 

[Photofluid]

I think I hold a rather different definition of Semi-Stall, for me I would rather say that semi-stall are built to worn down the enemy team slowly and sweep once the enemy team is low enough. This is generally done by non-status passive damage but can include voltswitchings. You don't really need more than one sweeper, the only thing to ensure is coverage and ability to resist revenge killing, lower firepower is allowed.

While for BO, I would rather say that it functions at lower speed tier in exchange for extra bulkiness to tank a hit or two. The concept behind is really to just exchange damage and win it with bulk instead of power, Assault Vast definitely helps a lot under this definition. It is however predictable that these team are quite vulnerable against set up sweepers unless they take priority moves(which is luckily not that uncommon). Another difficulty they may face would be 4MSS, as they can't pick their typing as arbitrarily as hyper offensive teams does, which hurts their coverage. The fact that they may not be able to pick LO which cuts their durability would also be an issue in the long run.

I would also like to point out that the bulkiness issue could be a misleading syndrome, as popular pokemons generally involves quite an amount of pokemon with high base stats. It is hence natural that they will pack more defensive stats unless GF allows 140-150 Atk/SpA to present massively. When we are talking about "bulky", I think we should at least assumed that one has invested on their defensive stats. Surely Garchomp and Terraskin are not fagile at all, but you don't determine things like that right?

Btw, concerning stalling changes. The trapping change don't feel enough to me. The distribution currently acknowledged is terrible, as it has narrow assess among the common or potential defensive threats. 1/8 health per turn sounds nice, but is barely even with WoW and Toxic after the first turn. And the fact that it does not persist after YOUR switching is the worst thing you may have, more than sufficient to average out the base damage it deals.

Another huge misconception is that it goes through taunt, while this is a true, it is also true that you now have to go one with them head to head without your status moves. It may act as an element of surprise to the harmless supports(spinner, wisher, etc), but that does not work to player who are aware of it.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Honestly the metagame seems to favour VoltTurn and Offensive Pivoting over traditional Set-up-and-sweep or Nuke Em all HO. With Defog removing Hazards allowing for more freedom while switching, Genesect back in Pokebank OU, and Rotom-W being as strong as it is in the current meta, VoltTurn is stronger than ever.

Then again, most VoltTurn is a form of heavy offense :/

 

[SuperMeep]

Offensive walls like Goodra and Mega Aggron are becoming more prevelant and common. Bulky offense is very viable now especially since hyper offense like Choice Specs rain Keldeo isn't as viable. Especially with sticky web, heavy offense teams. The doomsday weapons that are the megas are either glass cannons like Alakazam or Gengar, slow bulky tanks like Ampharos, Ttar, Heracross, and Aggron, or speed demons like Aerodactyl. These days, walls can hit back, with Goodra packing high special atk with peerless coverage, and M-Aggron with Massive 200+ base defense, taking nearly anything physical with ease, hitting back with 140 base attack. One of the premier physical threats, Terrakion, can at best 3HKO M-aggron with 252 hp and zero defense, while Aggron OHKOs back w/ iron head. I would also like to note that two amazing walls, slowpoke and Goodra get trapping moves. With AV Goodra, i could switch in to M-Gengar (before it Mevos) and infest it, stopping it from running away, instead of the opposite. at AV 252hp 0 sp def Dazzling gleam from a Gengar does about 22% from my experiance, while i can procede to 2HK0 easily with dragon pulse. And we have transitioned from Guns to tanks. Because our guns don't work so well against our tanks. I was able to outstall and kill M-Ttar with Def Gyarados. Seriously.

Most teams these days are arn't a serious of pivots to turn the tide in your favor, they're slow bulky trails of tanks with the occasional hard counter switch. Choice items have fallen down in usage, bar Azumarill/diggersby and most revenge killers. People need their coverage moves these days. Whether Bulky Offense is here to stay or not, entire teams dedicated to weather hyper offense is dead. (and maybe gastrodon too.)

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Mega Aggron is totally irrelevant to matches between better players, and Goodra is a really overrated bad Latias...

I agree with somedrunklee that Volt-Turn is not characteristic of "bulky offense" but is just an offensive tactic that can be used on any offensive team. It's equally (if not moreso) seen in HO as BO in BW.

Generally speaking, the metagame is much better characterized as Heavy Offense dominated, with "bulkier" offensive teams still playing as Heavy Offense, and Stall basically eradicated.

I'd argue that the current XY is the most high-speed, break-neck offensive metagame since DPP LC. Like DPP LC, Priority is everywhere, and despite eving in bulk, everything is practically 2hko'd by series of priority attacks.

 

[SuperMeep]

^Mega Aggron is totally irrelevant to matches between better players, and Goodra is a really overrated bad Latias...

I agree with somedrunklee that Volt-Turn is not characteristic of "bulky offense" but is just an offensive tactic that can be used on any offensive team. It's equally (if not moreso) seen in HO as BO in BW.

Generally speaking, the metagame is much better characterized as Heavy Offense dominated, with "bulkier" offensive teams still playing as Heavy Offense, and Stall basically eradicated.

I'd argue that the current XY is the most high-speed, break-neck offensive metagame since DPP LC. Like DPP LC, Priority is everywhere, and despite eving in bulk, everything is practically 2hko'd by series of priority attacks.

..... Seriously? It has 150 base special def, more hp, and access to sludge wave, and just generally a better moveset. They also have the same special attack. Barring speed, explain to me how latios in superior in ANY WAY for a wall, speed means jack if it's going to wall. Why would anybody pick Latias over Goodra if they wanted a special wall. Seriously. as a special wall, Goodra Outclasses Latias, especially with access to Sap sipper, and gooey, two amazing abilities, AND the ability to run mixed better with 100 base attack. Barring speed, latias is outclassed.

 

[MasterRyuga]

in terms of stats Goodra is stronger but your forgetting it has no recovery outside of rest and even at that you must have rain to be reliable but also latias can calm mind in Goodras face then roost or recover: calcs are demonstrating that Goodra cant Beat CM Latias even with max sp atk and life orb.

252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plus 1 Goodra will get Roost Stalled if it has life orb
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
without life orb seems like alot of damage but latias can still set up:
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 218-258 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plus 1 no life orb
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
at plus 1 you can simply CM again only thing stopping you is a crit then roost rinse and repeat to your liking. I think Goodra is a good poke but even with max evs and plus defense nature it still takes massive damage by standard pokemon on the physical side of course. just an example of its physical defense.
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Goodra: 187-220 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[Chou Toshio]

SuperMeep You're wrong on several accounts, and this last post actually made your arguments worse. Purely as a special wall, Latias is the superior Pokemon.

-First off, Speed matters on a defensive Pokemon. If you don't understand this, you clearly haven't been playing the game long enough. For those of us who have played long enough to appreciate the natural Speed on Pokemon such as Deoxys-D, Jirachi, Latias, Celebi, and Landorus-T, we know that good Speed can be the difference that makes a good defensive mon great. Especially when--
-Latias has recovery in both Roost and Wish. This alone makes it superior in a walling role, and its Speed makes it that much better at abusing recovery.
-Latias' support movepool includes Defog, double screens, Roar (far more reliable than D. Tail this gen), Wish, Healing Wish (though this is not too good on the defensive sets) and Thunder Wave. Goodra's support move pool is almost non-existent, containing nothing that you couldn't find on just about any Pokemon.
-Gooey is irrelevant in fighting Special attackers, so it's irrelevant to Special walling. Sap Sipper is nice because it grants immunity to powder attacks (honestly, what Latias/Goodra cares about special grass attacks?), but the only common user of them in OU is Breloom-- a physical attacker.
-Levitate on the other hand is an incredible ability for a defensive Pokemon because it makes you immune to spikes/toxic spikes, giving you incredible survivability with SR as the only hazard that hits you (and only neutrally)
-Neither Latias nor Goodra, after investing in Special bulk, are going to be beaten by the vast majority of Special attackers, so its extra bulk there is useless.
-Sludge Wave is totally irrelevant, because the best Fairies in OU are either immune to it (Steel/Fairy), or are hit by Thunderbolt as in Azumarril and Togekiss.

Purely as a wall to switch into special attackers and support the team (the role of a special wall), Latias is the superior Pokemon.

Goodra does have some use over Latias as an offensive tank (not as a special wall), but its strength over Latias is almost exclusively related to what it lacks, rather than what it possesses. The only reason why you'd ever think of using Goodra over Latias is because of the weaknesses Goodra lacks.
-No weakness to Ghost makes handling Gengar/Alakazam a lot easier.
-No Pursuit Weakness to be one shot by Tyranitar
-No U-Turn weakness to be one shot by Genesect (and it does have fire attacks besides HP Fire, so another point for Goodra there)

That said, while it does make Goodra a bit better suited to handle certain situations, it's still not particularly GOOD in those situations. Goodra does not want to be taking repeated STAB attacks from Alakazam or Gengar (and unlike Latias, it lacks a Psychic resist so it's destroyed by Psyshock). Even without a Pursuit Weakness, Tyranitar and Scizor can still do massive damage to it with Pursuit, so it still has to be careful (especially since it has no recovery). U-Turn from Scizor/Genesect doesn't one shot Goodra, but it'll still leave massive dents when the enemies have +1 or Choice Band. Needless to say, despite Genesect being a special attacker, neither Latias nor Goodra wants to try to switch into it without knowing it's choice locked into a Special move not named Ice Beam.


To be clear, in the bigger picture, Latias is not a very good Pokemon in this meta. Likewise, Goodra is also an extremely overrated Pokemon, and not really "good" in any sense.

 

[SuperMeep]

in terms of stats Goodra is stronger but your forgetting it has no recovery outside of rest and even at that you must have rain to be reliable but also latias can calm mind in Goodras face then roost or recover: calcs are demonstrating that Goodra cant Beat CM Latias even with max sp atk and life orb.

252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plus 1 Goodra will get Roost Stalled if it has life orb
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
without life orb seems like alot of damage but latias can still set up:
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 218-258 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plus 1 no life orb
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
at plus 1 you can simply CM again only thing stopping you is a crit then roost rinse and repeat to your liking. I think Goodra is a good poke but even with max evs and plus defense nature it still takes massive damage by standard pokemon on the physical side of course. just an example of its physical defense.
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Goodra: 187-220 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

1.) Why in hell would Goodra stay in on Landorus, ITS A SPECIAL WALL. You can't prove it's a crappy special wall by pitting it against a physical attacker. (duh)
2.) Calm mind Latias is great and all, but it can't do jack against fairys, which is a major problem.
3.) Goodra has a better attacking moveset outside of reliable recovery, with Latias dependent on Hp Fire, while Goodra has straight up flamethrower and infestation for trapping things like Gengar and Alakazam which it can kill with ease.
4.) Does Sylveon not exist? You said all decent fairies are steel/fairy, THATS ONLY KLEFKI AND MAWILE, neither of which Goodra is supposed to stop, plus flamethrower nails both on switch in
5.)Gooey is an amazing ability, if you physically attack Goodra, probably through a mixed suprise set or whatever, you get a speed drop, making revenge kills laughably easy, actually causing some people to fear attacking it physically.
6.) You don't bring Scizor in on Goodra if you want to live, FLAMETHROWER. Ttar, is however a problem for both.

In final, both are good walls in respective ways, with Latias able to roost and calm mind, and Goodra having massive bulk first off, no pursuit weakness, able to nuke scizor and deal with fairies. Honestly, Chou is perfectly right, bar sludge wave being useless, but Master Ryuga, you don't prove a pokemon is a good wall by pitting it against something it's not supposed to wall. I take it you think blissey is useless cause it dies to any physical fighting move.

Also, I've been playing showdown for a week, so yup, haven't played the game long enough, but sitting comfortably at 1500 rating. At least i'm not dumb enough to say a pokemon is a bad special wall because it dies to physical attacks.

 

[MasterRyuga]

1.) Why in hell would Goodra stay in on Landorus, ITS A SPECIAL WALL. You can't prove it's a crappy special wall by pitting it against a physical attacker. (duh)
2.) Calm mind Latias is great and all, but it can't do jack against fairys, which is a major problem.
3.) Goodra has a better attacking moveset outside of reliable recovery, with Latias dependent on Hp Fire, while Goodra has straight up flamethrower and infestation for trapping things like Gengar and Alakazam which it can kill with ease.
4.) Does Sylveon not exist? You said all decent fairies are steel/fairy, THATS ONLY KLEFKI AND MAWILE, neither of which Goodra is supposed to stop, plus flamethrower nails both on switch in
5.)Gooey is an amazing ability, if you physically attack Goodra, probably through a mixed suprise set or whatever, you get a speed drop, making revenge kills laughably easy, actually causing some people to fear attacking it physically.
6.) You don't bring Scizor in on Goodra if you want to live, FLAMETHROWER. Ttar, is however a problem for both.

In final, both are good walls in respective ways, with Latias able to roost and calm mind, and Goodra having massive bulk first off, no pursuit weakness, able to nuke scizor and deal with fairies. Honestly, Chou is perfectly right, bar sludge wave being useless, but Master Ryuga, you don't prove a pokemon is a good wall by pitting it against something it's not supposed to wall. I take it you think blissey is useless cause it dies to any physical fighting move.

Also, I've been playing showdown for a week, so yup, haven't played the game long enough, but sitting comfortably at 1500 rating. At least i'm not dumb enough to say a pokemon is a bad special wall because it dies to physical attacks.

nobody said Goodra was bad the topic at that point in time was Goodra and Latias. you completely missed with that response the example against landorus was showing with full defense positive nature the most common attacks can badly hurt Goodra latias is no exeption but if you read what i wrote you would know why Latias would be chosen the calcs were showing what goodra tries to do which is wall special attacks and like i also wrote Goodra has zero recovery outside of rest and to make that reliable means you need rain with hydration you only have 5turns of rain. Latias gets recover and also it is very fast at 110base speed dude.me showing calcs of Goodra doesnt mean anything. btw Latias has a pretty good move pool so it using HP Fire isnt really a big deal im sure you know what her brother can do she can do just as well.

 

[DaiGuren]

SuperMeep

A wall without reliable recovery is not a wall at all. The argument ends with that. All your arguments for Goodra only justifies the point that Goodra is a bulky tank, not a wall.

 

[Shurtugal]

Defog can work on HO and so can Sticky Web. I don't know why "bulky offense" are the only abusers to this. There are ways to keep Defog from working, just not too reliable, but there are ways: a.) Fast Taunt, which is probably the most common, and b.) letting Pokemon die to hazards, since Defog won't work since it technically can't "hit." There are other ways but I'd rather keep them to myself lol.

Anyway, Defog can work WONDERS for HO, especially if you are running like Dragonite + Volcarona + Charizard since these Monsters are huge threats when SR is removed, and HO can use a bulkier set-up for SR like Garchomp and still remain offensive enough to be "Heavy Offense."

HO also got plenty of new toys this generation. I personally think HO is amazing right now, you just got to know where to look.

(This is not to say that Bulky Offense is inferior, only that it isn't COMPLETELY better than HO. And the OP uses hyperboles to express Bulky Offenses effectiveness imo as well as underplaying HO and Stall. Stall with Sticky Web means they have faster walls to escape Taunts, Toxics, get Subs up, etc. I bet no one has tried stall wth sticky web so please lets not theorymon imo I think that could work. HO works with sticky web, and while "its crippled more," but "its crippled more" is the bane of HO since HO is basically the riskiest playstyle since it plays so fast and offensive compared to any other. Seriously, I don't see how that is a deterrent lmao.