Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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Speaking of which... more calculations! Here's a real kicker:
  • +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 205-243 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252+ Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 200-236 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 337-397 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You may now empty your bowels in sheer palpable terror.
Mother of god...

Seriously though, I had high hopes for Mega Mom when it first came out. I loved that it was great. And then it became too good. And then Seismic Toss shenanigans came out.

People need to stop doing the same shit that happened in the Gengarite thread. "Oh lol I don't have problems with it so not Uber lololol." THIS ARGUMENT DOES NOT WORK. Look at the calcs. Look at them and weep.
 

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And While Crunch is a good way to deal with ghost types, you have to use it instead of Sucker punch, which is your only way of beating pokemon that are faster than Kang and could potentially check it.
Most Mega Kangaskhans run both Sucker Punch and Crunch, as despite being the same type, they hit wildly different threats (faster frailer revenge killers versus bulky ghost types), so using that as an argument against its brokenness is pretty stupid.

Also on a side note, Terrakion can't switch in on Earthquake, and Kanga's Sucker Punch is absurdly strong enough to take down nearly all faster threats. Terrakion isn't a check, it's more or less the ONLY check.
 
The problem is that Rocky Helmet is always useful because of a single Pokemon, and strictly worse in almost every other case. If your opponent isn't running a Mega-Khan, then the Rocky Helmet actually penalizes you.
This is the complete inverse of the truth and you're missing my point. Who are you (or I, or anyone) to say that Rocky Helmet Garchomp or Gyarados or etc are "such outrageous ideas/clearly bad for the metagame"?

Seriously think of Focus Sash, Lum Berry, or Resist Berries in general. There are many items which are the standard on some pokemon because they serve a niche use and they do nothing in all other games. Whether their niche is against one pokemon or ten pokemon is irrelevant, the point is that they are very binary in nature. They are either clearly the best item by far for the matchup, or they essentially didn't exist that match. Meanwhile Rocky Helmet is actually quite useful against teams with and without MegaKangaskhan. Therefor it would be good imo if (hypothetically) every pokemons best item gravitated towards something akin to Rocky Helmet.

While binary items like Yache Berry might be more traditional and therefor appear healthier to you, I think that if anything it demonstrates an unhealthy metagame. Again I don't claim to know there the invisible line is drawn, but I personally see increased Rocky Helmet as a perfectly normal, acceptable metagame shift. I see no logical evidence as to why Leftovers is supposedly more deserving of being a main item over Rocky Helmet - other than tradition/nostalgia.
 
I've never seen a more dangerous sweeper. Either you've got Sableye or you're probably going to have to sacrifice multiple Pokemon to deal with it. Even without its past-gen moves, it's just ridiculous.

We've had the metagame for a while and if anyone's been playing well, they've had their eye on Kangaskhan. We know very well what it's capable of. There's no reason to think it's anything but broken. We don't need to wait for a suspect test; we may as well have been suspect testing it throughout the entire metagame so far already. Mega Kangaskhan has had a long enough run. It's time for a ban.
 
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 145-172 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 279-330 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can only switch-in on Sucker Punch.



Fire Blast works as a coverage move.



252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

I don`t mean to sound like an ass, but aren't you just proving my point? 2HKO/3HKO on a rocky helmet Garchomp.... maybe I am crazy, but with even the weakest Earthquake(0 atk) you are doing atleast 30%+ correct? I was under the impression that one hit from the Momma does 25% recoil damage, then another from the daughter does another 25%. That is 50% HP on one attack, meaning the next one, Kang is guaranteed to die, ESPECIALLY after an earthquake.

Am I missing something? Isn`t that what a check/counter is? To force something out, or destroy it?
 
This is the complete inverse of the truth and you're missing my point. Who are you (or I, or anyone) to say that Rocky Helmet Garchomp or Gyarados or etc are "such outrageous ideas/clearly bad for the metagame"?

Seriously think of Focus Sash, Lum Berry, or Resist Berries in general. There are many items which are the standard on some pokemon because they serve a niche use and they do nothing in all other games. Whether their niche is against one pokemon or ten pokemon is irrelevant, the point is that they are very binary in nature. They are either clearly the best item by far for the matchup, or they essentially didn't exist that match. Meanwhile Rocky Helmet is actually quite useful against teams with and without MegaKangaskhan. Therefor it would be good imo if (hypothetically) every pokemons best item gravitated towards something akin to Rocky Helmet.

While binary items like Yache Berry might be more traditional and therefor appear healthier to you, I think that if anything it demonstrates an unhealthy metagame. Again I don't claim to know there the invisible line is drawn, but I personally see increased Rocky Helmet as a perfectly normal, acceptable metagame shift. I see no logical evidence as to why Leftovers is supposedly more deserving of being a main item over Rocky Helmet - other than tradition/nostalgia.
There's a difference between using an item like the ones you mentioned which are used to help the Pokemon against a variety of opponent and Rocky Helmet which is being run only for Mega Kanga and can put you at a disadvantage against pretty much anything else that is standard.
 
Magnezone was a very situational Pokemon - it was slow, its main STAB had a type immune to it that hit it back super effectively, and if its opponent didn't have a Steel it became just another subpar attacker. Kangaskhan is none of these things.
I never even tried to compare Magnezone to MegaKanaskhan :(? I brought up the Magnezone Shed Shell reference to debunk the argument that increased Rocky Helmet usage is somehow a reason to ban Kangaskhanite.

There's a difference between using an item like the ones you mentioned which are used to help the Pokemon against a variety of opponent and Rocky Helmet which is being run only for Mega Kanga and can put you at a disadvantage against pretty much anything else that is standard.
This is the last time I'm going to reply to this (now rapidly recurring) false argument. Rocky Helmet is quite useful against any team without MegaKangaskhan. Items like Yache Berry are phenomenal against an Ice Attack and useless all other times.

You cannot possibly argue that Rocky Helmet is putting you at a sizeable disadvantage when not facing MegaKang because it is one of the top two (Leftovers being the other one) items that is going to contribute meaningfully every game.

I'm not saying you don't wish you could run Lum Berry instead, I'm not saying you wouldn't be a stronger pokemon if you had Lum Berry instead. I'm just trying to point out that Rocky helmet being popular is no better or worse than Leftovers being popular which is no better or worse than Lum Berry being popular.

EDIT: and voila a bevy of more posts below that continue to state that Rocky Helmet is only useful in one matchup. Where is the reading comprehension T_T
 
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This is the complete inverse of the truth and you're missing my point. Who are you (or I, or anyone) to say that Rocky Helmet Garchomp or Gyarados or etc are "such outrageous ideas/clearly bad for the metagame"?

Seriously think of Focus Sash, Lum Berry, or Resist Berries in general. There are many items which are the standard on some pokemon because they serve a niche use and they do nothing in all other games. Whether their niche is against one pokemon or ten pokemon is irrelevant, the point is that they are very binary in nature. They are either clearly the best item by far for the matchup, or they essentially didn't exist that match. Meanwhile Rocky Helmet is actually quite useful against teams with and without MegaKangaskhan. Therefor it would be good imo if (hypothetically) every pokemons best item gravitated towards something akin to Rocky Helmet.

While binary items like Yache Berry might be more traditional and therefor appear healthier to you, I think that if anything it demonstrates an unhealthy metagame. Again I don't claim to know there the invisible line is drawn, but I personally see increased Rocky Helmet as a perfectly normal, acceptable metagame shift. I see no logical evidence as to why Leftovers is supposedly more deserving of being a main item over Rocky Helmet - other than tradition/nostalgia.
No one runs an item that is only useful for a single match up, unless that match up is either: A) easily set up, or B) the only match up that can threaten it.
Rocky Helmet is almost completely useless outside of Mega-Kangaskhan. It hits such a small portion of the metagame at all, and for most of them, doesn't do worthwhile damage. It is only really viable against multi-hit attacks (the vast majority of which are non-contact). Otherwise, it doesn't do enough damage to make it viable. Ferrothorn was one of the sole users because it already had a similar effect, and even then, it was niche.

As for why it is unhealthy, that is a simple question to answer: It breaks the metagame. Quite literally. There are two separate and distinct metagames. One with Mega-Kangaskhan, and one without. And you have no way of knowing which one you are in. If your opponent doesn't run Mega-Kangaskhan, your team packed to the brim with ghosts and Rocky Helmets is just completely hosed. Flip a coin, see if you won or lost.

Not to mention that it means that the metagame would constantly switch between the two, with people loading up on anti-Mega-Kangaskhan teams, and then a more standard team coming in and dominating, and then the trend reversing. It is unhealthy pretty much however you look at it.

I don`t mean to sound like an ass, but aren't you just proving my point? 2HKO/3HKO on a rocky helmet Garchomp.... maybe I am crazy, but with even the weakest Earthquake(0 atk) you are doing atleast 30%+ correct? I was under the impression that one hit from the Momma does 25% recoil damage, then another from the daughter does another 25%. That is 50% HP on one attack, meaning the next one, Kang is guaranteed to die, ESPECIALLY after an earthquake.

Am I missing something? Isn`t that what a check/counter is? To force something out, or destroy it?
Sucker Punch is non-contact, so Mega-Kanga won't die to recoil. You hurt it with the recoil, then die to Sucker Punch. And it is still around.
 
I don`t mean to sound like an ass, but aren't you just proving my point? 2HKO/3HKO on a rocky helmet Garchomp.... maybe I am crazy, but with even the weakest Earthquake(0 atk) you are doing atleast 30%+ correct? I was under the impression that one hit from the Momma does 25% recoil damage, then another from the daughter does another 25%. That is 50% HP on one attack, meaning the next one, Kang is guaranteed to die, ESPECIALLY after an earthquake.

Am I missing something? Isn`t that what a check/counter is? To force something out, or destroy it?
The point is, sure, MKanga may now be horribly hurt by Rocky Helmet, but she has just killed your mon, whose sole purpose was to die to damage Mega Mom. Was that worth it? No one runs mons to sacrifice themselves to hope to damage other mons. You shouldn't have to do this.

Sucker Punch is non-contact, so Mega-Kanga won't die to recoil.
Say what? I'm pretty sure Sucker Punch is contact.
 
I have to point out, that somebody on Showdown, actually used Seismic Toss Mega Khan with Wish on me.

^ So no Mega Khan does get a healing move; Wish.


So I want to emphasize on that; Parental Bond 100 HP Damage Seismic Toss; you know what that does? 2-3HKOes any pokemon regardless of the bulk.
Seconding this, this should get noticed, Kangaskhan not only has extreme bulk and attack, but also a healing move, with the access to Seismic Toss, because you don't even need investment in Atk now. Not to mention he gets Parental Bond Knock off.
 

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I never even tried to compare Magnezone to MegaKanaskhan :(? I brought up the Magnezone Shed Shell reference to debunk the argument that increased Rocky Helmet usage is somehow a reason to ban Kangaskhanite.
And I'm arguing against that argument. Shed Shell was never a particularly big thing on Steels even when Magnezone usage was at its highest. Now we have a shit ton of random Pokemon running Rocky Helmet just to beat Mega Kangaskhan (I saw a Rocky Helmet Furfrou the other day >_>). This is not healthy in any way at all.
 
Focus Sash Wobbuffet FTW? As long as you don't have hazards on your side.
Well no, Mega Kang breaks Focus Sashes because it hits twice. That's why I figured wobba would just die rather than win.

Although now I think of it, Destiny Bond Gengar seems like a reasonable answer. Destiny Bond immediately will bring both down if it Crunches or if it Sucker Punches you second turn, leaving you free to Focus Blast it second turn to force it out. And yes, I know that's a one-for-one trade, but again it's Mega slot for non-Mega slot and if they don't take the trade you just got your Gengar in for free. A similar trick can be pulled with anything that gets Destiny Bond, outspeeds, and can threaten a KO or significant damage...although I'm having trouble finding anything else. Froslass, maybe?
 
Seconding this, this should get noticed, Kangaskhan not only has extreme bulk and attack, but also a healing move, with the access to Seismic Toss, because you don't even need investment in Atk now. Not to mention he gets Parental Bond Knock off.
Wish and Seismic Toss, yes. Knock Off, no. It was an incorrect tutor moves in the listing, and it was only checked recently because, until Gen VI, Knock Off sucked. But it has been confirmed, Kangaskhan does not learn Knock Off.

Well no, Mega Kang breaks Focus Sashes because it hits twice. That's why I figured wobba would just die rather than win.
I knew that. >.> Focus Band, maybe?
 
I don`t mean to sound like an ass, but aren't you just proving my point? 2HKO/3HKO on a rocky helmet Garchomp.... maybe I am crazy, but with even the weakest Earthquake(0 atk) you are doing atleast 30%+ correct? I was under the impression that one hit from the Momma does 25% recoil damage, then another from the daughter does another 25%. That is 50% HP on one attack, meaning the next one, Kang is guaranteed to die, ESPECIALLY after an earthquake.

Am I missing something? Isn`t that what a check/counter is? To force something out, or destroy it?
And once you've given up your Garchomp to appease Death, Destroyer of Worlds in your sacrificial rite, you're met with something that it happens to be good at stopping. Like, say, Talonflame, or anything else Garchomp checks with that item.

Sacking something just to stop a terrifying sweeper is a losing strategy, and that being considered one of the better ways to "check" M-Khan means that something is utterly wrong. Sure, M-Khan's dead, but you've opened a massive hole in your team that a half-decent M-Khan player can exploit. (Which is really not at all hard to do, seeing as it's entirely self-sufficient) Also there's Drain Punch once Pokebank opens, which renders that whole strategy totally moot.
 
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This is the complete inverse of the truth and you're missing my point. Who are you (or I, or anyone) to say that Rocky Helmet Garchomp or Gyarados or etc are "such outrageous ideas/clearly bad for the metagame"?

Seriously think of Focus Sash, Lum Berry, or Resist Berries in general. There are many items which are the standard on some pokemon because they serve a niche use and they do nothing in all other games. Whether their niche is against one pokemon or ten pokemon is irrelevant, the point is that they are very binary in nature. They are either clearly the best item by far for the matchup, or they essentially didn't exist that match. Meanwhile Rocky Helmet is actually quite useful against teams with and without MegaKangaskhan. Therefor it would be good imo if (hypothetically) every pokemons best item gravitated towards something akin to Rocky Helmet.

While binary items like Yache Berry might be more traditional and therefor appear healthier to you, I think that if anything it demonstrates an unhealthy metagame. Again I don't claim to know there the invisible line is drawn, but I personally see increased Rocky Helmet as a perfectly normal, acceptable metagame shift. I see no logical evidence as to why Leftovers is supposedly more deserving of being a main item over Rocky Helmet - other than tradition/nostalgia.
It's cool and all that you think that rocky helmet > leftovers on ferrothorn and such (lolwut).
But
Can you say with certainty that just as much ferrothorn would be running rocky helmet if mega kang didn't exist?
You can't.

Sure, there are benefits outside of saying "fuck you" to mega kang to rocky helmet, but the primary reason people are running rocky helmet is mega kang.
Think about that.
You have to run an inferior item, in which you are left at a disadvantage if you're not facing the threat you're designed to counter, just to check one pokemon?
That one pokemon is probably broken.

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While Khan is beatable with prediction, prediction is a very piss poor argument. It needs to be banned mainly because it overcentalizes the meta in a way that only Stealth Rock should ever do. Nothing can take boosted Sucker Punch, not even Terrakion, so if it can beat it's checks, they are no longer checks.
Loads of physcial priority users can take boosted sucker punch, like Luc, breloom, or Conk, which are all common. Thats not why it's in question of being banned. Prediction isn't a piss poor arguement, IT IS THE BASIS OF THE GAME.

Im actually in favor of Khan being banned, but yours is a crap reason. Centralization isn't why we ban things. Really, we ban things because they do their job 100% of the time, without being stopped by anything. The reason we had excadrill banned is because with sand rush, and his natural bulk and typing to take priority, he can almost guarentee a swords dance, and have insane speed at the same time, then sweep outspeeding scarfers and priority bouncing off. Blaziken is banned because it is has near perfect coverage with HJK and flare blitz, good typing to take all priority moves really well bar aqua jet, combined with more than 1 turn of speed boost so you can't choice scarf revenge it, and that only giratina has the typing and stats to reliable stop him. WE DID NOT BAN M-GAR BECAUSE IT CENTRALIZED THE METAGAME, OR COULD SWEEP A TEAM. READ THE ANOUNCEMENT FOR PETE'S SAKE. I am sick of people saying that. If that was true then Politoed and Ninetales and Garchomp and Terrakion and salamence would never see the light of day outside Ubers. They are centralizing, but together they keep each other in check and are thought about directly when building a team (terrakion in particular). Khan is in question of being banned because:

A.) Its speed tier is 100, severely limiting what would counter outside of priority, meaning that what would counter it has to faster than it, requiring a scarf or priority to survive.
B.) The above, combined with it's bulk and sheer power means that a lot of frail fast mons that out speed it, such as Keldeo, can't 0HKO it thanks to it's bulk, and are destroyed when it hits back. Its power and bulk, combined with it's speed make to too much to be revenged easily, or even just taken down.
C.) To revenge it, you mush sacrifice something to do damage, then finish it off with priority, or switch in one of it's counters, Confagrious, dusclops, or whatever, because it will kill them with ease if the don't switch in safely. To remove it from the game literally requires you to sacrifice something. Even with the rocky helmet sets (which have been around forever, seriously, do some research) you still have to sacrifce a mon to kill it, with something ferrothorn, dying so khan can take a bunch of damage from hitting thorn, then being finished by priority.
D.) For example, one can pack a threat that is checked by the same things a M-Khan, and once say, Rocky helmet G-Chomp is dead along with Khan, that threat can sweep and win.

Dear god people, take a second to learn why we ban stuff, LOOK IT UP. Stop crying that it makes it easy to win, or that it's centralizing, or that it takes no team support, or the all too common, WUT LOL OP. (i have seen that 5 times.) Thats not why we ban things here. We are chatting int the pokemon UNIVERSITY. Knowledge about why we ban things is right in front of you. LEARN IT. KHAN SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE OF THE REASONS ABOVE THIS PARAGRAPH AND POSSIBLY SOME OTHERS , BUT NOT THE CRAP ONES LISTED IN THIS PARAGRAPH.

I Can
say that for sure ferrothorn would run rocky helmet without khan. They did it last gen to stop things like CC terrakion and OHKO back with Gyro ball.
On a small note that has nothing to do with the agruement for or for not banning khan, Its fun to D-Bond this guy with Banette, ensuring it's death.
 
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The only dangerous ones are the ones with Fake Out because something that would have been able to handle it now can't because it's now in Return/Earthquake/Sucker Punch KO range.
 
The only dangerous ones are the ones with Fake Out because something that would have been able to handle it now can't because it's now in Return/Earthquake/Sucker Punch KO range.
Spinblockers maul that set. As of writing, there are 69 users viewing this thread.
 
The only dangerous ones are the ones with Fake Out because something that would have been able to handle it now can't because it's now in Return/Earthquake/Sucker Punch KO range.
You do realize that the analysis has concluded that Fake Out is one of Mega-Kangaskhan's worst moves? It can only be used once, only has 40 BP, stops all your momentum (which might matter if you weren't using Mega-Kangaskhan, which doesn't really care), and takes up a slot that could be used for effective coverage.
 
Stick a knife into her, she's done. The reign of the Kangaroo and her baby are over in OU. The fact that you have to bring along a rocky helmet abuser to sacrifice, sableye, or revenge kill after it takes out 1 or 2 of your mons should be enough to ban her on the basis that it is overcentralizing the metagame. Why wouldn't you build a team around a mega kangaskhan? It is pretty much a guaranteed victory if the opponent does not have an insane amount of checks to her. She is a sweeper who can guarantee to net at least one kill and have a great chance of sweeping your team.
 
You know something isn't right when this bullshit Pokémon makes ExtremeKiller Arceus feel deadweight in UBERS. Kill Giratina or lol lugia and literally nothing can stop Jolly +2 Mega Kangaskhan. It's actually way worse than Gen 5 Excadrill.
uhh dude, i no mega Kangaskan is good, and i have seen it in action. Personally, all these bans on mega evolutions are just stupid!!!!!! I get it, smogon is trying to keep the game in balance, but if you keep taking out mega evolutions, alot of the competitive community will forget them. It is an insult to pokemon by just keeping banning a type of pokemon that is very unique and powerful. Nintendo will notice no one is using these mega evolutions and either be less creative or stop making them. You can only have one mega anyway so it is not the end of the world. I VOTE MEGA KANGASKAN FOR OU AND ALL MEGAS OU, WE MISS YOU GENGAR- the legit OU
 
C.) To revenge it, you mush sacrifice something to do damage, then finish it off with priority, or switch in one of it's counters, Confagrious, dusclops, or whatever, because it will kill them with ease if the don't switch in safely. To remove it from the game literally requires you to sacrifice something. Even with the rocky helmet sets (which have been around forever, seriously, do some research) you still have to sacrifce a mon to kill it, with something ferrothorn, dying so khan can take a bunch of damage from hitting thorn, then being finished by priority.
And you're fucked if Mega Kangaskhan's user is savvy enough to swap Mama Scylla out after taking its sacrifice so it can feast later.
 
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