Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

[GatoDelFuego]

What's keeping Gible from A? It has amazing power, coverage, boosting options, matchups, and availability. It also is like Joltik from the past game where it can completely solo the gym immediately following its capture. It also dominates team flare, too. If it weren't for the fairy gym a little later, you could take on pretty much every other trainer in the game with this thing, and it does well against most faries too.

I'm still not convinced that skrelp needs to be relegated as "bad" in D-tier. It's slow and it has some flaws, but it really is quite powerful. If you put a little effort in, it's really nice, not just bad.

 

[Wobbanaut]

I don't think we should factor in Sylveon's Amie time. It's basically a friendship evo you have to play a minigame for.

Also, Eevee looks ADORABLE in Amie. Yes, that has nothing to do with tiering, but I had to point that out.

The difference between Sylveons amie evolution and friendship is that when gaining affection you can't do anything else while with friendship evos you can. That's why in a tier list based on efficiency the time wasted getting affection to get sylveon can't be ignored.

 

[Banryu]

According to accounts of those who actually used Sylveon, the time 'wasted' in Amie to get it is negligible-- about 20 minutes or so isn't that long for it IMO. B-tier seems appropriate for Sylveon.

 

[Its_A_Random]

20 minutes spent in an efficient run to evolve Eevee into Sylveon. 20 minutes that can easily be spent progressing through the game. And the time spent is... negligible? Even when it is unlikely you will ever get that time back?

Sylveon is highly likely to be thrown into C-Tier next update. Mega Evolving every single battle is way more efficient than that. I stated in the OP that Pokémon Amie is considered inefficient for a reason. It is fair game with Sylveon, yes, but it does not mean the downtime will be ignored... Multiple users on #orangeislands that I have spoken to agree with this.

-----

As for Garchomp, I guess I will have to justify myself. Okay, so for starters, it is stuck in the Slow Exp. group, which means it is taking more experience to level up, dragging the team levels down. Then there is the fact that its starting level is low enough to warrant initial grinding or some sort, & remember that Route 13 availability is by no means early; it is the first of the Kalos Mountain routes. It also has to wait until Level 48 to become Garchomp, which is pretty late. Like, late Team Flare late iirc. Okay, it wins against Clemont. Okay it has a good Team Flare game, but the one thorn in its side there is Gyarados, who can Intimidate, take a hit (unless you used Swords Dance enough times...) then just belt you with Outrage. Wulfric is a risky solo since you have to rely on outspeeding everything & OHKOing with Fire Blast/Flamethrower, or you are going to be OHKOed. Valerie you lose & Olympia is an average matchup. Wilkstrom should be a win as long as you get rid of Klefki as soon as possible. Malva should be a convincing win. Drasna should be a win, but Noivern will hurt. Siebold poses issues, with Clawitzer hitting like a truck, Starmie being quick & having Dazzling Gleam, & Gyarados intimidating & setting up or destroying with Ice Fang. Diantha should not be that big of a problem, though Aurorus OHKOes with Blizzard if it survives, & Gardevoir blasts you out of the water with Moonblast if given the chance. AZ should not be that big of a deal.

It is not as great as it is made out to be, but it is still a potent force. It has a lot of good matchups, but it also has some bad matchups. It runs into issues of coming not that early, a slow exp curve, a late evolution (though more tolerable than Skrelp's if I say so myself), & I feel like a B-Tier is appropriate for it. I am not going to rule out a possible A-Tier, however, but I feel like a B-Tier suits it well enough as it stands.

 

[Tomy]

About Sylveon, the Megas are all on S and A-tier, so it isn't a really fair comparison. Of course the Megas are more efficient than Sylveon. And by taking 20 minutes you have (before Grant) in trade a pokemon with boosted Experience (20%), 110 Sp.Atk, with a type bringing it 2 weaknesses (Steel being very rare, poison a bit more common because team Flare), an amazing immunity, and 3 resistances (2 of them, Dark and Fighting, being veeeery common) and that can be a solid asset vs every Gym Leader (only Wilkstrom and Malva are a no-go) and Team Flare (as kong as you avoid Poison Pokes.
C-tier is for average pokes. And while Sylveon isn't flawless, I guess it deserves a bit more credits. B-tier seems like an evidence to me.

 

[Lucchini]

C tier is Mid High, D is Mid. D sounds good enough for Skrelp.

Ampharos, Abomasnow and Blastoise are not in A/S tiers in spite of having a Mega Evolution. The comparison was that it takes less time to mega-evolve each battle than spend 20 minutes to get Sylveon.

I feel you're also overestimating Sylveon's match-ups because if he doesn't have a SE attack against something, his low phys defence and speed give him a disadvantage against powerful physical attackers that are faster than him.

Its_A_Random
A Pokemon in the Medium Fast group gets to L40 (for example) with the same amount of experience it takes for a Slow Pokemon to get to L37. I should think that Garchomp being 3-4 levels behind the party doesn't steal any experience and performs just as well, if not better, than whatever fast growth mons you might have in your team (the only really viable one seems to be Azumarill).

The exp curve deserves being pointed out as trivia of sorts, but should be far from the decisive factors involved IMHO.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Garchomp is stuck in the slow exp section, yes. IDK if I mentioned it but I did a run with 3 slow group dragons + Lucario (not fast) and charizard. My only quick leveling-up guy was joltik. While they may gain levels slower, it's NOT enough to weaken them. Garchomp, Lucario, even Skrelp were not once underleveled throughout the entire game. The highest something got above me was Diantha's Gardevoir and Goodra (goodra was two levels above dragalge which took a dragon pulse to the face, Goodra was then OHKOed by draco meteor).

Garchomp can't solo Gyarados, so what? That is one pokemon on the team flare list out of hundreds you face. If you don't have a way to beat one gyarados at that point in the game, what are you doing. If you plan to solo the game with Garchomp, you're doing it wrong. Why would I be using it against Wulfric? Don't I have other guys for that? It actually hurts valerie pretty bad, as the trainers use a bunch of dendenne, and it handles mawile. You should have something that's not a dragon to handle faries. Olympia gets dominated by Cruch, which will be coming from Garchomp at that point. Up until then Gabite is plenty strong. Again, my team of 48-dragon-evolutions all evolved right around the ice cave, and they might not have been as strong as possible before then, but the power jump was just the icing on the cake.

Lucario loses to malva. Should it not be S? Venasaur shouldn't be taking on Olympia, Herracross has the same bad matchups as garchomp, should we drop those down? Garchomp can't solo the rest of the game, sure, but why does it need to to be A-tier?

 

[Merm]

I didn't use any of the Pokemon in limbo, so I can't be of much help there, sorry. :c
However, I did see a Meowstic analysis on the first few pages and I'd like to expand on it since it made the case for Meowstic being A and I disagree.
I assume that we're only tiering the female, since its more efficient in its level-up movepool than the male.

Espurr/Meowstic [F] - C-Tier
Availability: Fairly common on Route 6, so pretty early.
Stats: Good speed means that it's going to go first for most matchups. Decidedly average Special Attack that functions well enough early, but then tapers out pretty badly towards the end. Passable bulk compared to Abra and Ralts means it can take a neutral hit, but isn't saying much.
Movepool: Its movepool is pretty impressive. Confusion holds its own until a relatively early Psybeam. Disarming Voice is useable early game, but easily loses power once its middling Special Attack starts holding it back. Psyshock once it evolves is a nice prize, being a high BP attack so early in the game. Level up Charge Beam (though that's not much because of low Sp. Attack, like Disarming Voice), Shadow Ball and Signal Beam, along with Thunderbolt and Energy Ball TMs all help with coverage. The problem is that once you start getting such coverage is also where Meowstic's Sp. Attack starts to taper out. (For what it's worth, its only HM is cut)
Major Battles: Grant's Tyrunt probably can go down quite easily to Psybeam, though it does pretty average here. It really shines against Korrina, outspeeding pretty much all of them and OHKOing with a strong Psyshock. Scraggy dies to Disarming Voice. Ramos' Weepinbell goes down easily, but Jumpluff can outspeed and hit hard with Acrobatics and Gogoat is bulky enough to cause problems. Psyshock can hurt Clemont except for Magneton, but chances of OHKOing are quite slim and they can hit hard back. You can't do much against Valerie. Olympia is hit hard with Shadow Ball, but whether chances to OHKO have become quite slim at this point, and Olympia can hit back with Shadow Ball. It can try to take out Wulfric's Avalugg/Cyrogonal, depending on whether you kept Psychic or Psyshock.
Team Flare members with Croagunk/Toxicroak die easily, and in the earlier battles when they're still Scraggy you can take them out with Disarming Voice. It gets a pretty good matchup against Lysandre's Mienshao, but that's about it really. At this point it also struggles a bit OHKOing Gyarados with Thunderbolt, and it mega evolves facing it is out of the question.
You can barely scratch Wulfric, Malva is also a bit shaky, you can hurt Drasna's Dragalge if you kept Psyshock (Psychic can 2HKO), but everything else can hurt hard, and Energy Ball can OHKO Barbaracle, but again Gyarados can cause problems if your Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO (which it has a high chance of not.)
Against Diantha, Hawlucha tends to Swords Dance First Turn so you have first blood there, but it can't do much against anything else except maybe Gourgeist.

Additional Comments: Meowstic basically does well Early to Mid game, but struggles to hurt anything with neutral damage later on (and even some SE hits aren't that great, with its poor stats). I think C-Tier is more fitting.

I hope I did this right?

 

[orkid]

I took more or less 20 minutes actually to have 2 hearts. Coverage and middling Speed hurts him, but it has the bulk AND the typing to be an efficient poké. Resisting fighting is great (some of them have poison Jab but you can OHKO them - or finish with Quick Attack if they have Sturdy). I haven't battled vs the Elite 4 yet but with that Sp. Attack and boosted experience, C is pretty low to me. And I was underleveled because I trained 5 poke with no Lucky Egg and Exp. Share, and Sylveon saved me so many times. B at worst.

Edit: orkid: 110 Sp.Atk is "Above Average"? It's amazing. Draining Kiss gets the job done until like 6th gym where you have Moonblast which destroys a lot of pokes.

Sylveon's special attack is above average, not amazing. If you look at all the pokemon in S & A tier, their relevant attacking stats are higher than sylveon's (here I'm counting megas) except for Vivillion, who's currently in limbo. Even of the B tier pokemon, I'm pretty sure sylveon only beats hawlucha & greninja. i know the tiers aren't finished and there will be more pokes added but i'm just saying its special attack doesn't look 'amazing' in comparison to those pokes. of course its stats are just a component of where its tiered. what really matters is that the special attack kinda lets you down midgame, in my experience, when draining kiss stops being an autokill and starts being a 2-3 and rarely even 4 hko.

Sylveon's best time in the game for me was right after he evolved when draining kiss was amazing and nothing was as powerful and bulky stat wise. after that draining kiss starts to take 3 hits to KO too many times and i even started to worry abt its PP sometimes since its just 10. moonblast is very powerful, but by the time sylveon gets it in the late-middle game its speed is starting to let it down - forcing it to take 2 hits to 2hko most of the time. it is a very nice way to beat drasna and is generally helpful but the slump midgame and the fact that there are a bit too many random steel and poison attacks from random trainers, combined with the (pretty easy but still time consuming) aimie evolution makes sylveon sound C tier to me. I really like sylveon, and i found it super useful, but i still think he's C tier.


i guess if i wanted to argue for a b tiering i'd focus on how he's useful throughout the game, even when he's struggling to 2hko things, because he is bulky. and i'd say that sylveon's a really good fairy type - probably the best after azumarril in-game unless i'm stupidly forgetting something. fairy is a very good in-game type, its basically a lot like water w/o the surf utility since it has a few good type matchups and 3 not too common bad type matchups. i don't think that's enough to make sylveon b tier but i think its part of what makes sylveon such a satisfyingly reliable pokemon most of the time (kinda like a bulky water if that makes sense) - except when that fighting/dark type you're up against has poison jab/iron head

i wish i could weigh in on skrelp with more certainty cause i used one in a playthrough but it was from wondetrade so its kinda hard fro me to know how it is w/o trading. all in all i'd say skrelp was a pretty useful late game - its gym match ups are average or maybe even below average but in that playthrough i didn't use a water or an electric type and found skrelp helpful versus lysandre, malva, wikistrom, siebold and diantha with water/dragon/electric/poison attacks. it makes a suitible water type relplacement. oh and also it learns waterfall which was nice for me since i used it to get some tms and then deleted it for thunderbolt when i switched from navigating the world to battling, so if you wanted to put it in C tier, I could imagine that. but the late evolution gets hard to deal with.

 

[SimicCombine]

Gabite struggles significantly with bulk (even after eviolite) and struggles to 1HKO with Dragon Claw, so it usually has to take a hit. As mentioned before, a level 48 evolution is very late. Earthquake is right before the Elite Four, and before that time, the lack of power in Bulldoze, Dig, or Dragon Claw is very noticeable. Garchomp's speed isn't amazing so it actually loses to Malva (outsped by Pyroar and Talonflame, 2HKO'd by a combination of Hyper Voice and Brave Bird. I'd be fine with A or B (leaning towards B since the consensus on a B tier seems to be "good, not great."

 

[Banryu]

Gible/Garchomp's slow growth and relative mediocrity before fully evolving make it a solid B and not quite A, IMO. I used Flygon on my in-game run and it seems pretty much comparable and on-par with big daddy Chomp; they more or less fulfill the same role, just Flygon has slightly greater utility and versatility versus Chomp's better stats. And speaking for myself, Flygon did great for me in-game and never really struggled at all, so I'd call him a pretty solid B-tier as well.

By the way, I'm still pretty solidly convinced of Honedge's S-tier ability.

 

[ariariadne]

Is Garchomp really outsped by Pyroar? I think that's pretty variant on team size and level. You should at least have a decent amount of Speed EVs from random stuff throughout the game, too.

Anyway, I thought this was worth doing.

Trapinch: - D Tier
Availability: Route 13, one of the first Mountain Kalos Pokemon. This is pretty close to the mid-game but it really misses out on contributing for a while. It joins from level 26 to 28, which is a bit behind for this point in the game.
Stats: Trapinch has great Attack, but its other stats are poor and its Speed is atrocious. Vibrava isn't much better- it actually loses a good amount of attack, though it gains a significant boost in speed, while other stats only increase a bit. Flygon returns to having great Attack paired with good Speed and otherwise decent stats in other areas.
Typing: Trapinch starts off mono-ground, but Vibrava and Flygon are Ground-Dragon with Levitate. This is an excellent attack pair, but it really can't make use of it until it evolves to Flygon- more on this in movepool. Defensively, as Trapinch it's unfavorable due to weaknesses to Water and Grass, but fortunately it's not that far from Ground/Dragon, which is pretty good. Dragon attacks are rare while Ice is usually uncommon outside Wulfric's gym, though .Fairy can hurt. However it has several handy resistances, and both Electric and Ground immunities are excellent.
Movepool: Trapinch starts with Bulldoze but has Dig for a Ground-type option almost immediately (1-3 levels after it can be caught), which is reasonably powerful for a good while, and always has Rock Slide upon capture, which gives it good coverage. After that it gets Crunch at level 34 which can be pretty nice. Unfortunately, from here on it's pretty barren. The first real Dragon STAB it gets is Dragon Tail upon evolution into Flygon, as Dragonbreath is laughable coming off of base 50 special attack, and Dragon Tail honestly isn't much better due to negative priority. Flygon at least gets Dragon Claw at level 55, but this is fairly late and the TM isn't available until Victory Road. Flygon gets a fairly decent TM movepool while the other two have few options available. Interestingly, Trapinch gets Superpower through the move tutor while its evolutions don't. However, holding off on evolving Trapinch for that long is a dreadful idea.
Major Battles: Trapinch joins just in time for Clemont's gym, where it should do fairly well, though being outsped constantly is unfortunate and it might take a lot more damage than you'd like due to being underleveled. Vibrava can do some damage to Mawile but should avoid Valerie completely otherwise, as it really can't handle Fairy attacks. Olympia is a somewhat good matchup because you do have Crunch, but if you aren't evolved into Flygon yet it will probably have a hard time taking her heavy hits. Its performance against Team Flare is pretty good as it fairs well against Poison and Fire types while being alright against Darks. Lysandre will probably give you a bit of trouble but it can hit his team for good damage outside of Gyarados, which probably smashes you. Wulfric is a definite no-go. Malva is up in the air due to some neutral hits, but Flygon can at least deal heavy damage. It can also do well against Wikstrom. Flygon really struggles against Siebold and Drasna, however. Flygon can do okay against Diantha, probably handling the fossils on its own. It can probably do well against Hawluch and Gourgeist, but Goodra is too bulky for it to handle and Mega Gardevoir destroys it.
Additional Comments: The worst part by far about Trapinch is that getting Flygon is a real chore. Once you do get there, of course, you have a respectable team member, but 17 levels with bad stats all around is really hard to cope with. I just don't think it can justify the effort getting out from it's start in an efficient playthrough, and even as Flygon it can sometimes fall too short for me to really think it deserves higher than this. I just never really felt it pulled its weight.

EDIT: Didn't see Banryu's post but yeah, really disagree on B tier. I could see C at the very most. I don't have any Garchomp experience to compare it to though, so I won't say anything on that front.

 

[Lucchini]

Shouldn't Vibrava not exist at all? It seems to me that the best way to use Trapinch is to postpone its evolution until L44, because Vibrava's attack loss is big (the higher speed doesn't compensate for this loss because it's just that bad at attacking) and the defensive gains are barely there (5 in HP/def/sdf). Keep holding that Eviolite and just attack things physically. Don't you gain boosted exp as well? So that's another reason.

Once Flygon, you just use the move relearner to obtain Earth Power... if you even want it.

Trapinch's problem is the same it has had since RSE I guess.

 

[ariariadne]

Didn't know about the boosted exp thing. How much is that? It could possibly push C tier if it's enough. Still, even with Eviolite it's durability is pretty terrible especially at this point when you're never going first ever, and its defensive typing is also worse. If going last is an issue for stuff with good durability like Honedge it's certainly even more problematic for something like Trapinch, which would require a lot of healing to keep going. I guess that makes it slightly more viable against Valerie. But I still would never say B tier for it.

 

[Not a missingno]

Binacle

Limbo B/C


-Availability: Before the second gym,via rock smash(Route 8)
-Typing: Rock/Water.A useful typing ingame because team flare grunts mainly use dark/poison types.
-Stats: 42/52/67/39/56/50 as a binacle,72/105/115/54/86/68 as barbaracle
-Movepool: Interesting level up movepool,though TM is where lots of it is.A notable level up move is shell smash,though it gets some other moves like slash,night slash,cross chop and stone edge.It doesn't get waterfall though. TM moves include rock tomb,power up punch,and shadow claw.It gets surf,which wouldn't really be preferred,but if you need it,it works.
-Major Battles: Grant-Part water typing should make it easy,but it gets no good water moves at that level.
Korrina-KEEP AWAY
Ramos-KEEP AWAY
Clemont-Should be a barbaracle by now,so it can possibly pull off some PuPs to take out/sweep a good portion
Valerie-Usable,and can sweep
Olympia-You have access to shell smash by now.Easy sweep.Also night slash.
Lysandre-Keep away from mienshao.Sweeps everything else.
Wulfric-Shell smash+stone edge,can hardly touch avalugg due to rediculous defense
Rival-Depends on starter you chose.If you picked froakie,keep away from chesnaught.Fennekin isnt as bad,but greninja is primarily a special attacker which preys on the weaker defense stat.Shell smash if you picked chespin.
Drasna-Can shell smash sweep,but is difficult
Siebold-Has a barbaracle of his own,which doesn't have shell smash.Can't really sweep here,but can take out starmie.
Malva-Sweep without shell smash.4oed.
Wikstrom-Can sweep,but is difficult.
Diantha-Can really only take out gourgheist and aurorus,but can shell smash sweep because of low defense stats(excluding gourgheist)
-Other: A possible ability is tough claws,which is the preferred ability becuase binacle NEEDS it to be able to shine on its team.



I hope I did this right?

 

[SimicCombine]

Is Garchomp really outsped by Pyroar? I think that's pretty variant on team size and level. You should at least have a decent amount of Speed EVs from random stuff throughout the game, too.

I was a couple of levels under, but I did SuperTrain a bunch of speed EV's on, so I would assume under normal conditions Chomp has a definite risk of being outsped.

 

[Banryu]

I absolutely disagree with D rank for Flygon; it's C at absolute worst, and probably on par with Garchomp due to doing pretty much the same job. I'll mainly defer you to my own writeup of Trapinch for reasoning. I will just say Dragon STAB isn't that great because it doesn't hit anything SE, so it doesn't really care that good Dragon STAB comes late.

 

[ariariadne]

Flygon is excellent, but I feel like you glossed over the period beforehand too much. 17 levels at the least is a long time for those stats and it never really felt like an excellent choice. I don't think it can really contribute enough after those to make up for the fact that the only thing it has before sucking is Clemont, and it's just way too bad for way too long for me to ever say B tier. Gible takes a single level to evolve, while Gabite has most of the power of Trapinch without sucking hard in every other stat, and Vibrava is absolutely worse. Garchomp also completely wrecks Flygon. I don't think it does what the Gible line can do well at all.

 

[Banryu]

You're forgetting that whether Garchomp is stronger than Flygon, or even better than it, does not matter as it relates to their tiering. As stated in the OP:

We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon. It does not matter if Pokémon X does the same thing better than Pokémon Y; if both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such.

Flygon is obviously not as strong as Garchomp by any stretch, but is has the same coverage and does the same job of hitting things weak to Ground and Rock. Flygon performs great against Flare bar Gyarados and wrecks Malva, Wikstrom, and to a lesser extent Drasna, giving it more or less the same matchups as Garchomp. Moreover, Flygon is not 100% outclassed by Garchomp due to its Ground immunity (making it resist EdgeQuake coverage which is something Chomp does not do) and ability to learn Roost and Fly since Vibrava. As for the prevo period, I'll admit I don't recall it quite as strongly as Flygon's performance, but I DO recall for a fact that it did not drag its weight, at least not nearly as badly as Ralts/Kirlia did. Trapinch packs a lot more of a punch than Gible does (at least somewhat making up for the slower evo, in addition to Flygon evolving sooner than Garchomp) and Rock Slide gives it a stronger rock move than Gabite has access to at that level as well, and Roost + ground immunity lets it need less potions than Gabite. (Also, Levitating Dig is nice.)

In short I'm basically just repeating myself from my write-up. Gabite and Vibrava are both mediocre, but Vibrava/Flygon's greater utility makes it on par with Gabite/Garchomp and their better stats. That Garchomp has better stats overall doesn't really matter as far as their tiering goes IMO. You can't ignore the things that make Flygon different from Garchomp, though, and I feel that's something YOU are doing, good sir.

I won't pretend that Garchomp isn't better than Flygon overall, but I definitely think Flygon is still on the same tier level as Garchomp for reasons stated.

 

[ariariadne]

I'm not saying that Trapinch should be below Gible because Gible is better. I just don't think it's correct to say they do the same thing because Trapinch just fails to do a lot of the things Gible can and that it's an inaccurate comparison. It's either outsped and forced to take a hit with questionable durability or just fails to hit hard, sometimes both, for 17 levels, and I don't think that's B tier material ever. Gible doesn't have these problems because Gabite surpasses Vibrava in nearly every respect.

Also I don't think Trapinch hitting harder than Gible compensates for much at all because Gible evolves 1 level after capture, and then you get the far superior Gabite.

 

[Banryu]

…I guess you could say that Garchomp has superior neutral matchups, which would make it more efficient in a lot of respects… …but against SE-weak targets Flygon definitely still gets the job done. (Maybe my data was a bit skewed because I got lucky with an Adamant Trapinch, but… *shrug*)

Also, there's no reason to assume that Trapinch HAS to remain slow until it can evolve into Flygon because Vibrava is still a viable option. As for the longer evolution period, it's not that long considering that Trapinch can overpower the Dugtrio and such on the route where you catch it (albeit with some healing in-between battles), and can steamroll Clemont's gym even before evolving at all (it will probably be evolved by the time it gets out). Gabite also has to wait longer than Vibrava to evolve into Garchomp, lest ye forget. It more or less evens out from where I'm standing.

Also, I don't particularly appreciate you saying that Gabite is basically better, since you're basically ignoring the points I'm making-- and this is the last time I'm willing to repeat myself on this: they have different strengths. Superior stats is a pretty significant strength on Gabite's side, but I don't think I really need to point out that stats aren't all that matters, do I?

a tl;dr more indepth comparison of Trapinch/Gible's traits for those who actually care

Hide

Trapinch & Gible shared traits
- stuck in a mediocre-to-weak middle evolution for a long time; final evo comes relatively late at mid-late 40's
- Ground STAB is nice for hitting things that resist Dragon, and is more useful overall than the Tyrunt's type or the mono-Dragons available; also steamrolls Clemont's gym with little trouble
- Ice/Dragon attacks are mercifully rare, making the type pretty advantageous
- pretty much the same gym/E4/Team Flare matchups overall
- access to Rock Smash and Strength for utility
- Ability to deal with fairies (their only common weakness) in the form of Poison Jab (Garchomp) / Steel Wing (Flygon)

Gible > Trapinch
- Gabite/Garchomp have uncontestedly superior stats all around, particularly Attack, making it more efficient overall since it can just smash things faster & giving it better neutral matchups than Vibrava/Flygon; better bulk means better chances of surviving SE hits
- Gible has access to Hone Claws, and Garchomp access to Swords Dance (where only Flygon gets Hone Claws / P-up Punch)
- evolves to Gabite sooner than Trapinch -> Vibrava; Trapinch is slow and not very bulky
- much earlier usable Dragon STAB
- better lategame overall in terms of battle performance
- access to Cut (not that you want to waste a moveslot on it but if you can spare it, I suppose that's something) and Surf as Garchomp for utility

Trapinch > Gible
- Vibrava / Flygon an extra immunity in Levitate and thus are not threatened by Rock/Ground coverage from like Geodude, Dugtrio, etc.
- Vibrava/Flygon's additional immunity + access to Roost give them better survivability than Gabite/Garchomp in some situations, arguably making them better in defensively-neutral matchups
- Vibrava gets Fly, which is useful for obvious utility reasons
- more powerful mid-game coverage moves like Rock Slide (75 BP lvl25) and Crunch (80 BP lvl34), where Gible only has access to moves like Rock Tomb (60 BP) / Shadow Claw (70 BP) / Aerial Ace (60 BP) / Incinerate (60 BP) for a while until it evolves
(^ bolded because I feel this is a pretty significant point)
- Trapinch hits harder than both Gible and Gabite, making it a worthy holder for Eviolite until it becomes Vibrava
- evolves to Flygon sooner than Gabite -> Garchomp

I'm done arguing about this, the rest can decide what's to be done about them.

 

[ariariadne]

I think that is severely understating Trapinch's problems. I think Gabite's overwhelming dominance when they're both in that stage of evolution is not being emphasized enough- while it manages to still be a good player before Garchomp, Trapinch and Vibrava are simply not up to par until evolution, and Flygon even still isn't incredible. I don't think that's B tier. C tier would be fine with me to be honest.

 

[vilelab]

did anyone else besides me use a kingdra or cloyster?

 

[Banryu]

did anyone else besides me use a kingdra or cloyster?

I haven't heard anybody talk about Kingdra, but I've seen a few Cloyster writeups in the thread so far.
Feel free to do writeups with them if you feel you've got something else to contribute; Kingdra in particular might be good to do.

 

[Tomy]

I've finished my 2nd run. I agree with the tiering of some pokes: Froakie is definetely B-tier (Frogadier struggled quite a bit); C-tier for Fletching (the whole run was plenty of ups and lows).

Now there are my thoughts about some untiered pokes / pokes with no consensus:

Honedge had some issues (Low Sp.Def - even with Eviolite, terrible Speed, crippling Dark weakness) but it was overall pretty good and saved me many times, so I'd say A-tier.

Meowstic, I'd say C-tier. Available early, has an amazing movepool, and OK stats that reaaaally start to be lackluster late-game. Meowstic is a deadweight except vs Siebold and Drasna's Dragalge. I'll write an entry about it if everyone agree.

Sylveon was quite better than I expected. With 2 Calm Mind it won vs 4 of Diantha's Pokemon, and helped me a lot vs Siebold and steamrolled Drasna (Meowstic beated Dragalge). So it is definitely B-tier IMO, more than ever.