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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
LOOKS A LOT LIKE POLTERGEIST'S ASCENSION THOUGH
bitching about other people bitching, productive. i dont like the new icons either, a lot of people that i know and play with dont like them either. maybe if riot spent less time on stupid icons and released content on time for once this year i wouldnt mind
VKCA
(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
I try my best
surely there are more important issues with league though atm.. like invisibility.
Or top.
Not that I'm complaining about mundo being imba as hell cos I play/ed him all the time, but it's still dumb as fuck.
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yes i agree mundo is a problem, it has to do with manaless top laners also as well
VKCA
(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
yeah yeah, that's my point. oh boy isn't it fun now that top lane consists of some combination of renekton/nasus/shyv/mundo building sunfire/spirit visage/randuin's/thornmail
in that order
every
single
game
(What's that, rengar's popular again because of invis being super good? Man, that's awesome, finally we can have some variety in top lane builds!)
oh
in that order
every
single
game
(What's that, rengar's popular again because of invis being super good? Man, that's awesome, finally we can have some variety in top lane builds!)
oh
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to be fair rengar is one of the only top laners in korea who doesn't build pure tank after sunfire / visage
the standard build is bonetooth into triforce after sunfire+visage so he becomes a splitpushing monster
and in korea we've seen a lot of tryndamere top and even some lissandra
the standard build is bonetooth into triforce after sunfire+visage so he becomes a splitpushing monster
and in korea we've seen a lot of tryndamere top and even some lissandra
because tryndamere isn't another manaless top laner who can 1v1 the enemy carry after a certain point.
top laners who have mana all got nerfed because they used to beat up on melees too hard, the only manaless ranged top laner is kennen, karma + liss go top because they dump on melees through their kits. 2v1 lanes also mean a top laner will be denied farm early, so someone who can just be tanky can sit there and soak exp and rely on base stats/utility without any risk they can't build the damage they need. someone like malphite doesn't have the mana pool to trade blows with his EQ and activate W every time a manaless champion runs at him with their no resource cooldowns that aren't significantly different from those with mana.
top laners who have mana all got nerfed because they used to beat up on melees too hard, the only manaless ranged top laner is kennen, karma + liss go top because they dump on melees through their kits. 2v1 lanes also mean a top laner will be denied farm early, so someone who can just be tanky can sit there and soak exp and rely on base stats/utility without any risk they can't build the damage they need. someone like malphite doesn't have the mana pool to trade blows with his EQ and activate W every time a manaless champion runs at him with their no resource cooldowns that aren't significantly different from those with mana.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Nerfing the defensive mastery tree is literally the WORST thing you can ever think of doing when it comes to solving the prevalence of manaless tops.
The entire strength of manaless tops stem from an inherent war of attrition between melee tops and their many trades. A mana using top will slowly burn through their mana pool everytime a trade is initiated or else they will take free damage. This is why manaless stuff isn't universally fantastic (i.e. vlad or akali aren't shitting on all other mids), since many ranged champs can rely on harass and can avoid needless mana wasting trades. Nerfing the defense tree will reduce EARLY GAME defensive externalities in that trading system and will make the advantage of being able to use spells off cooldown without fear more prevalent, exacerbating the whole situation and not make them easier to handle. Yes their lategame defensive presence is a big issue but it is not the real issue.
The fundamental problem with manaless tops (imo) is that their "saving grace" tradeoff for being so strong early is that they generally fall off as the game goes on. This "tradeoff" is a poor one in relation to general counterplay because it automatically cedes the point of "Being stronger early", and there is little to no efforts in attempting to have any counterplay opportunities for those who ARE limited by a secondary system beyond just cooldowns (mana primarily, but energy also fits here). Then once these characters do flow into being less strong as the game goes on they can easily transition into a strong disruptive tanky presence and are given sufficient tools so that while their damage threat is becoming much lower their overall game impact is not being reduced as much as it should be if they are forgoing limiting their early game.
Any solution to this problem is going to be rather extensive and probably not going to be elegant. If it were me, I would NOT hit their lategame defensive capabilities, because that still operates under the assumption of "their early-game is going to be strong nothing we can do, lol." Instead, I'd retool all manaless champs to being much more limited by their cooldowns, extending them beyond what we'd normally consider long, and then buff these spells to being almost mini-ults so that their play pattern is "I have this giant scenario-changing spell that I can use at any time but using them all at once makes me extremely vulnerable", then give them necessary retooling of their base stats to make them not useless without their spells (but still disadvantaged). This would change the problematic behavior of the manaless champ being the instigator and forcing trades in a war of attrition that cannot be lost, to being the class that is more REACTIVE to the trades being started.
There's probably a more elegant solution, but hey that'd be why I'm not a designer.
The entire strength of manaless tops stem from an inherent war of attrition between melee tops and their many trades. A mana using top will slowly burn through their mana pool everytime a trade is initiated or else they will take free damage. This is why manaless stuff isn't universally fantastic (i.e. vlad or akali aren't shitting on all other mids), since many ranged champs can rely on harass and can avoid needless mana wasting trades. Nerfing the defense tree will reduce EARLY GAME defensive externalities in that trading system and will make the advantage of being able to use spells off cooldown without fear more prevalent, exacerbating the whole situation and not make them easier to handle. Yes their lategame defensive presence is a big issue but it is not the real issue.
The fundamental problem with manaless tops (imo) is that their "saving grace" tradeoff for being so strong early is that they generally fall off as the game goes on. This "tradeoff" is a poor one in relation to general counterplay because it automatically cedes the point of "Being stronger early", and there is little to no efforts in attempting to have any counterplay opportunities for those who ARE limited by a secondary system beyond just cooldowns (mana primarily, but energy also fits here). Then once these characters do flow into being less strong as the game goes on they can easily transition into a strong disruptive tanky presence and are given sufficient tools so that while their damage threat is becoming much lower their overall game impact is not being reduced as much as it should be if they are forgoing limiting their early game.
Any solution to this problem is going to be rather extensive and probably not going to be elegant. If it were me, I would NOT hit their lategame defensive capabilities, because that still operates under the assumption of "their early-game is going to be strong nothing we can do, lol." Instead, I'd retool all manaless champs to being much more limited by their cooldowns, extending them beyond what we'd normally consider long, and then buff these spells to being almost mini-ults so that their play pattern is "I have this giant scenario-changing spell that I can use at any time but using them all at once makes me extremely vulnerable", then give them necessary retooling of their base stats to make them not useless without their spells (but still disadvantaged). This would change the problematic behavior of the manaless champ being the instigator and forcing trades in a war of attrition that cannot be lost, to being the class that is more REACTIVE to the trades being started.
There's probably a more elegant solution, but hey that'd be why I'm not a designer.
Why is everyone all over the Defense tree's nuts lately anyway? It's not much different from the S3 mastery tree, the highlights -- 3% health, 3% damage reduction (from movement-impaired targets) and 15% tenacity -- are basically the same. The only major difference seems to be everyone saw a couple posts on Reddit and think Perseverance is literally the single greatest mastery of all time because dude if you're roaming the map at 1% health all day it's worth 5 rejuv beads which is totally OP.
The domination of manaless tops currently is probably more metagame than a legitimate problem, there are plenty of mana-users that are getting no love from the masses but are perfectly adept at handling themselves. I mean, besides Nasus who is the FotM thing to bitch about lately (him and Riven). Short of Level 2 cheese from Rengar and Riven (or a lucky Tryndamere), the most dominant low-level duelists all use mana: Trundle, Udyr, Volibear, Darius. Not everyone has huge mana problems like Malphite.
Kha'zix does, in fact, still exist despite his complete and utter disappearance from competitive play since his evolution rework. Pantheon's always been one of the strongest lane bullies (and just got buffed), Darius too if you concede the fact you're going to get jungle camped to hell on him. *ahem* Singed is basically Mundo except he doesn't have to stand inside of a minion wave to AoE it so he can't be bullied as hard by other strong early bruisers. Kayle dumps on most melee champions and Cho'gath, hell Warwick too but he has more mana problems, has always been hell for snowbally lane bullies.
The domination of manaless tops currently is probably more metagame than a legitimate problem, there are plenty of mana-users that are getting no love from the masses but are perfectly adept at handling themselves. I mean, besides Nasus who is the FotM thing to bitch about lately (him and Riven). Short of Level 2 cheese from Rengar and Riven (or a lucky Tryndamere), the most dominant low-level duelists all use mana: Trundle, Udyr, Volibear, Darius. Not everyone has huge mana problems like Malphite.
Kha'zix does, in fact, still exist despite his complete and utter disappearance from competitive play since his evolution rework. Pantheon's always been one of the strongest lane bullies (and just got buffed), Darius too if you concede the fact you're going to get jungle camped to hell on him. *ahem* Singed is basically Mundo except he doesn't have to stand inside of a minion wave to AoE it so he can't be bullied as hard by other strong early bruisers. Kayle dumps on most melee champions and Cho'gath, hell Warwick too but he has more mana problems, has always been hell for snowbally lane bullies.
diamondprox said it was good so it must be true
They already did that with the most recent patch, not sure if it's enough but it is a start to nerfing the most powerful masteries (perseverance)
Asek
Banned deucer.
Am I the only one who doesn't see that much of a problem with ALL of the manaless tops? There are plenty of mana using top laners atm who are all really good, nasus, jax ,olaf irelia and darius (last 2 debatable) are all really powerful picks atm and they all outscale the majority of manaless tops. Sure riven and rengar are just a slight bit too strong and other manaless tops such as shyvana, renekton and shen are all top tier but they all have downsets (usually higher cd's than mana champs, slightly lower base stats, tend to drop off harder than mana champs) and that is the tradeoff of being manaless. I may be bit bias considering I'm a renekton main but i play a lot of top and don't see a huge problem with manaless tops. I would say the biggest problem with the meta atm is that most ADC players feel fairly weak atm, as they now have 4 people on the other team usually trying to get on top of them and the way that top + jung can stack resistances and zone ADC's out of team fights make them relatively weak and not much of a 'carry' but usually just somebody who will be putting out average damage and be taken out by one of the popular gap closing bruisers that roam atm. Considering bot lane is now a lot more high pressure than it was, I can understand most ADC mains being unhappy with the new support changes + current meta.
I'm only silver plz dont hurt me
I'm only silver plz dont hurt me
Nasus and Jax are weak picks at the moment but viable. Darius and Irelia are utter garbage.
In comparison, Shyvana, Renekton, Riven, Lee Sin, and Rumble are all better picks than any of the above, almost solely as a result of the fact that they do not run out of mana and thus can "outsustain" you without even damaging you.
In comparison, Shyvana, Renekton, Riven, Lee Sin, and Rumble are all better picks than any of the above, almost solely as a result of the fact that they do not run out of mana and thus can "outsustain" you without even damaging you.
Didn't know ARAM (and apparently Custom) games show up in Features Games, apparently I'm a minor celebrity now because I had three or four complete randoms add me yesterday after having seen me in game. \o/
Sam, that was rather my point about the mana users. None of those have particularly egregious mana problems like Malphite does, especially not Darius whose mana problems consist solely of trying to chain 3+ ults together in a midgame skirmish. Whatever happened to Muramana being super duper incredibly OP anyway, to the point that 3-4 months ago being manaless probably would've been considered a massive disadvantage because that means said item is unusable?
Sam, that was rather my point about the mana users. None of those have particularly egregious mana problems like Malphite does, especially not Darius whose mana problems consist solely of trying to chain 3+ ults together in a midgame skirmish. Whatever happened to Muramana being super duper incredibly OP anyway, to the point that 3-4 months ago being manaless probably would've been considered a massive disadvantage because that means said item is unusable?
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No one really used manamune besides Jayce and Yorick who both incredibly suck in the current meta. Damage tanks are the way to go, but champions like Kayle can really screw with the meta as the new LCS team displayed against that soulless franchise NiP. So far Riven and Shyv are gettings Nerfs but nothing on Mundo.
On a side note... Anivia... who was the reason I started playing more seriously (I was Anivia only for about 2 months) is finally a bit more noob friendly with a buff to her auto attacks. The first buff since the start of S2 I think. Easier to poke in lane, last hit and more of a reason to run Hybrid or AD like froggen.
On a side note... Anivia... who was the reason I started playing more seriously (I was Anivia only for about 2 months) is finally a bit more noob friendly with a buff to her auto attacks. The first buff since the start of S2 I think. Easier to poke in lane, last hit and more of a reason to run Hybrid or AD like froggen.
She's not manaless at top lane because she needs to spam condemn to get people off her. Vayne would do good vs mundo and shy but no one else, esp Rengar and Lee sin