Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[PK Gaming]

It was outclassed more than sucked, that's what I meant

You're way off base though.

It was painfully obvious that Entei was terrible in standard, in addition to being outclassed. But that's besides the point; it's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand anyway.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Entei literally got sacred fire like 2 days ago or something lol. Theres no way to rank it anywhere due to the lack of extensive tests, lets just keep using it for awhile to see how its going to fare in this meta before calling specific ranks. Also bisharp is solid A rank, that thing makes me shit my pants everytime it comes in. Stab knock off is just incredible, powerful priority in sucker punch combined with swords dance makes it so hard to revenge kill and defiant is ridiculous antimeta alongside making it the face of HO. Its also the only steel type to resist dark and ghost so it even has something defensively over other steel types.

 

[Exeggutive]

Thundurus-T is solid B- maybe even B imo. It's outclassed by Thundurus-I most of the time but it's not bad at all. The agility+3 attack set is its best set but scarf isn't bad either.
I'd put Keldeo at A+ honestly. The amount of teams that are weak to the specs set is extremely high.
Hippo isn't even on the list. It's probably C+ or B- since it's one of the best checks to Aegislash and just a good defensive wall in general.

 

[SergantGold]

Ok, if we do everything that has been said so far then we will end up like last gen where everything was way too high and it took ages to balance out. I'm going to address everything that has been said since ginganinja s post.
(By the way, Talonflame is at both S and A+ ranks and people are arguing about it)

-Empoleon
Empoleon is not B rank. It can function in OU, but it has so many checks it's not funny. Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, the ever present Rotom-W, Keldeo, Breloom, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, all common threats in the metagame. Yes, its typing is good, but its middling stats prevent it from being an effective force in the metagame. Plus, we shouldn't just try to rank less viable Pokemon because we can, we should start with common, threatening ones as the list is still a WIP.

I didn't try to rank it because it seemed less viable I suggested ranking it because I believed it was far more viable than it was last gen.
Also I acidently but B instead of B- but w/e
These are all from personal experiences using this set:
Empoleon @ Air Balloon (because it makes ground types fail at it)
Sassy/Whatever SpDef nature you want I just wanted a slow Defog
252Hp/252 SpDef/4Spa
-Defog
-SR
-Roar/Knock Off
-Scald/Ice Beam
1. Only the rare banded Ferro can actually check empoleon as Defog removes leech seed and empoleon can knock off and/or roar Ferro out. Empoleon isn't weak to grass due to his great typing
2. From my experiences, the most common Empoleon set (Specially defensive) can survive enough Rotom-W to be its job done and then haul ass out of there
3. Any threatening ground type check can easily be turned into countered by empoleon I you give it an air balloon, so garchomp fails at killing it majority of the time in actual play, as it is really easy for empoleon to keep the air balloon long enough to get by garchomp/force him out so it can do its support job

If you still think he is less viable he should at least be C+/B- Min B max
I also thought he fit the B rank description well. He has flaws that prevent him from doing his job 100% of the time (does it more like 80%) but he does it effectively.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Donphan was never bad was it? Ok then. It is bulkier than Excadrill, but it has a worse defensive typing. It hit's harder than Forretress but Forretress can set up hazards easier. Knock Off. Removing items is good, but STABless just like Ice Shard is just really weak. Most spinners have tools to beat spinblockers, but D
onphan can beat frail ones? Cool. More utility than Excadrill? Exacdrill can set up SR against Magic Bouncers, EQ levitators, it can use Sand Rush effectively, beat almost all spinblockers with Shadow Claw, Iron Head Fairies, has higher Attacking power and a better typing.

Actually, Donphan has a much better typing for taking on physical threats as it doesn't take super effective damage against fighting or ground types meaning it can tank them and spin against many of them unlike excadrill. And by utility I did not in any way mean offensively. I meant support moves. I did forget about magic bounce, but that isn't at all the point.

"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."

This is a direct quote from the OP in describing C rank. This means that Donphan needs to be evaluated as its own pokemon and not just lol worse than excadrill.
Edit: and how is unstabbed 95 that knocks off an item coming from a 120 atc worse than 70 unstabbed with no extra utility off of 130 or whatever excadrills attack is?

 

[EternalZ]

I believe Empoleon should get C+ or B- due to being one of the best Defoggers in the game with a plethora of resistances, including a resistance to SR and an immunity to spikes coupled with the fact that it can clear and set up hazards in the same set. While not many people have used it it has this small niche, and a very good one at that.

Porygon2 should be nominated somewhere along C+, B-, or B as Fairy's have made Fighting types drop in usage, special moves have been nerfed so it takes special hits even better, weather has been nerfed so boosted hits won't be hitting it very often and it is a great check to many pokemon with it's amazing bulk and solid support options.

Crawdaunt deserves C or C+ because of the raw power it has and it's amazing niche at crippling just about everything that doesn't have Mega in it's name with Adaptability-boosted Knock Offs and it's newfound toy, Aqua Jet, which lets it hit harder than Azumarill's Aqua Jet. Dark's buff was very kind to it as well and although it can't switch into much, nothing can switch into it either.

Entei gets a special mention as a C+ at worst due to it's new toy in Sacred Fire, which, coupled with Assault Vest, makes the fire dog impressively tanky, and nothing really wants to switch into a 100 BP STAB Sacred Fire, either due to it's power or just that 50% burn chance. It also serves as a phenomenal check to Aegislash as it can 2HKO most variants and Sacred Fire is a non-contact move! It can also run a Choice Band and spam Sacred Fire, because no one in their right mind want to switch something into THAT.

Finally, Togekiss deserves B+ because it's new Fairy typing was a godsend, changing it's nuetrality to the powerful Fighting type into a 4x resistance, also giving it a 4x resist to Bug, an immunity to Dragon and Ground, all common attacking types in this meta, making it an amazing counter to a plethora of pokemon, most notably Dragons (as a lot of dragons have Dragon+Ground combos) and just shuts Chomp down. Did I mention it's bulky as hell, can Defog, has reliable recovery and can still paraflinch like there's no tomorrow? Yeah.

 

[Monte Cristo]

just shuts Chomp down.

While togekiss is awesome and I love it, it's not a counter because most garchomps these days run stone edge, just a quick note, but it still deserves the rank

 

[rachet67]

Can we suggest pokemon that aren't listed yet?

If we can, I would nominate Celebi for B.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category

Celebi has solid stats all around and has a unique niche in that it is one of the few remaining grass types that can run an offensive set in OU. This is especially true now that Breloom has been significantly nerfed from last gen. It can also run a defensive set, as its typing gives it unique resistances. Finally it can act as a nasty plot baton passer. Basically little has changed for it since last gen.

However, its typing also leaves it weak to many common types, the worst being a huge weakness to U-turn. If you run celebi you pretty much have to also run a solid counter to pokes such as Volcorona and Dragonite (scarf terrakion for example), who can set up with ease, especially if they run a lum berry.

And why are we talking about Entei, its way to early for that.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I want you to take a look at what are the top threats in this gen. Notice how celebi is eaten alive by almost all of them. Genesect, lucario, charizard, talonflame, aegislash, excadrill (swords dance), heatran, garchomp (any set except choice scarf), gengar, greninja, landorus (both formes), pinsir, venusaur, scizor, kyurem-b and there are stuff that although cant do much to it, celebi cant really prevent them from doing their job like ferrothorn and both deoxys formes. Dont even get me started on the other great threats like mandibuzz, volcarona and bisharp. Like seriously, unless the metagame becomes completely centered around rain again, i dont see celebi getting any relevance anytime soon. The meta is just harsh for it, and honestly venusaur is just so much better in the role of a bulky grass. It pretty much walls everything celebi does and even more. Sure it has nasty plot+baton pass, but when are you going to find time to setup AND pass considering that almost eveything in the tier forces celebi out? Honestly its just too niche even for B rank, specially considering that this gen B rank has stuff like clefable, the aforementioneds bisharp and mandibuzz, mamoswine and other excellent mons which celebi doesnt really compare to in terms of usefulness.

 

[Meru]

I'm surprised Rotom-W wasn't the very first consideration for S-rank. It still has the same excellent typing and ability, granting it resistances to Flying, Fire, Ice, Water, Steel, all retardedly common attacks, while leaving it to weak to the second-worst offensive attack type in the game (might just be my opinion, but aside from Poison, Grass is probably one of the least concerning weaknesses)

When you put these attributes into the metagame alongside its well-distributed stats, it's able to be anything from a hard counter to an offhand check to literally half of the metagame. Not only that, but it always has the option to put itself in a favorable match-up for the turn, either by burning or pivoting off of its counters, none of which are immune to both. And to top it all off, like someone else said, it leaves your clothes smelling fresh as fuck

 

[Fuzznip]

I don't see Zapdos anywhere on this list and I'm not sure why!

Honestly, this thing is one of my new favourite Pokemon to use this time around, and I'd almost consider it to be relatively anti-meta at the moment. Not only does it have a really strong typing defensively, it packs the best hazard removal move in the game: Defog. With its great defensive spread of 90/85/90 and high Speed and Special Attack, it finds many opportunities to switch in, remove hazards, and even damage something pretty hard if it needs to. It can also be catered to fit your teams needs. For me, I like to use it specially defensively, as it proves time and time again to basically shut down one of the scariest special sweepers in Mega Lucario, and also handles Genesect and Tornadus extremely well, among many others. However, it can just as easily be used physically defensively, checking Pokemon such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Scizor. Even if you don't really invest heavily in one defensive stat, it's bulky enough to likely take a hit and retaliate. Its Pressure ability is also nothing to overlook, as it can sap PP off of Close Combats, Fire Blasts, Hydro Pumps, and more. I personally run Discharge and Heat Wave as my coverage attacks, having the chance to paralyze a switch-in with the former and roasting the plethora of Steel-types overwhelming OU, such as Ferrothorn, Genesect, Scizor, and Aegislash.

I would put Zapdos for B rank.

 

[SergantGold]

I want you to take a look at what are the top threats in this gen. Notice how celebi is eaten alive by almost all of them. Genesect, lucario, charizard, talonflame, aegislash, excadrill (swords dance), heatran, garchomp (any set except choice scarf), gengar, greninja, landorus (both formes), pinsir, venusaur, scizor, kyurem-b and there are stuff that although cant do much to it, celebi cant really prevent them from doing their job like ferrothorn and both deoxys formes. Dont even get me started on the other great threats like mandibuzz, volcarona and bisharp. Like seriously, unless the metagame becomes completely centered around rain again, i dont see celebi getting any relevance anytime soon. The meta is just harsh for it, and honestly venusaur is just so much better in the role of a bulky grass. It pretty much walls everything celebi does and even more. Sure it has nasty plot+baton pass, but when are you going to find time to setup AND pass considering that almost eveything in the tier forces celebi out? Honestly its just too niche even for B rank, specially considering that this gen B rank has stuff like clefable, the aforementioneds bisharp and mandibuzz, mamoswine and other excellent mons which celebi doesnt really compare to in terms of usefulness.

Even though I love celebi to death, other than a niche as a nice cleric I don't see how it would outpreform mons like Jirachi or cresselia

 

[Duck Chris]

I agree with SSB on the topic of celebi, remember how much it's usage decreased around the beginning of BW2? Well genesect is back and now it has talonflame to deal with as well. Celebi is just too much of a liability at the moment, plus it's main job of checking a lot of rain threats is a lot less important now. I'd say celebi stays as a C max.

 

[SergantGold]

I'm surprised Rotom-W wasn't the very first consideration for S-rank. It still has the same excellent typing and ability, granting it resistances to Flying, Fire, Ice, Water, Steel, all retardedly common attacks, while leaving it to weak to the second-worst offensive attack type in the game (might just be my opinion, but aside from Poison, Grass is probably one of the least concerning weaknesses)

When you put these attributes into the metagame alongside its well-distributed stats, it's able to be anything from a hard counter to an offhand check to literally half of the metagame. Not only that, but it always has the option to put itself in a favorable match-up for the turn, either by burning or pivoting off of its counters, none of which are immune to both. And to top it all off, like someone else said, it leaves your clothes smelling fresh as fuck

It cannot be S rank as it cannot Sweep majority of the meta with little trouble, it cannot wall majority of the meta with little trouble, and it cannot support the meta as well as a S rank could. It is A+ for this reason.

 

[Meru]

It cannot be S rank as it cannot Sweep majority of the meta with little trouble, it cannot wall majority of the meta with little trouble, and it cannot support the meta as well as a S rank could. It is A+ for this reason.

I'm gonna have to disagree. What it is able to wall are pretty significant parts of the metagame, and its version of support is phenomenal due to its refusal to give up momentum while doing its job. Sweep and wall are honestly pretty outdated terms that can't be used to define how strong of a team player Rotom-W is, especially mid-game. S-rank Rotom-W this generation is pretty synonymous with S-rank Jirachi last generation in that while they're not threatening with overwhelming sweeping or walling potential, they still help to be a huge glue by providing so many assets in just one team slot.

 

[SgtEvans1]

I'd like to add Avalugg for Rank C+ or maybe B-.

While Avalugg have the greatest defense support, has Rapid Spin, and mono ice type, but somewhat lacks of special defense. If given a proper set/ hold item (or if anyone have brains), it can function very well against strong physical or special offensive but fragile pokemon. Its ability is pretty useful: Own tempo is used against Klefki or any Swagger user, while Sturdy might not the best choice if you used Assault Vest.

I've used it in many battle. It can tank TalonFlame's Flare Blitz, even if Avalugg is suffered by Stealth Rock. Assault Vest definitely helps if faced against strong special attacker, like Alakazam or Gengar. Rapid spin helps if you knew Avalugg wouldn't last long, and can take damage before using Rapid spin.

Another option is to focus Avalugg on defensive set. Roar, Recover, rapid spin and Avalanche.

 

[ginganinja]

Rotom-W ===> S Rank
Zapdos ===> B Rank

Iv been convinced.

 

[gnr61]

It cannot be S rank as it cannot Sweep majority of the meta with little trouble, it cannot wall majority of the meta with little trouble, and it cannot support the meta as well as a S rank could. It is A+ for this reason.

The very nature of a good anti-meta pokemon is to wall/otherwise check a large number of relevant mons, relevance being weighted by usage. In this regard Rotom-W is just the ultimate utility pokemon right now, dancing around many major threats and shifting the balance of momentum on its little cone head. It essentially defines the flow of games. It is a fantastic candidate for S.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

So far, Mega-Scizor hasn't been mentioned. While it definitely has some issues, it also possesses strengths which I feel allow it to fit into A-Tier as a defensive/supporing threat.

Mega-Scizor was shafted in its early life for having attack significantly lower than a choice banded scizor, which many believed would resign it to live in the shadow of it's devolved form. Others believed Mega-Scizor would not be capable of competing for the elusive mega slot on a team. However, as the metagame evolved, Mega-Scizor only became better.

First of all, the Knock Off and Defog buffs give Mega-Scizor a very interesting support movepool to play around with. Not only did the knock off buff benefit mega-scizor in it's support capabilities, but it also gave Mega-Scizor a niche as a great switch in to powerful Knock Offs from the likes of Landorus-T, Crawdaunt, Conkeldurr, and others. Mega-Scizor possess better bulk than Skarmory on both sides, along with access to reliable recovery in roost. As the icing on the cake, Mega-Scizor gets U-Turn, which, off of even an uninvested base 150 attack, does considerable damage. The ability to wall a significant portion of the Metagame (70/140/100 defenses- compare to Skarmory's 65/140/70; additionally, M-Scizor only has 1 weakness). A near perfect counter to threats like Kyurem-B who can check most physical attackers in the tier, Mega-Scizor also possesses high enough offenses (unlike Skarmory) and a decent enough support movepool to avoid most set-up, has access to priority in the form of Technician Bullet Punch, and can keep hazards off the field with defog- Mega-Scizor is one of the premier defog users for VoltTurn and balanced teamstyles (although in the latter, it faces stiff competition from Lati@s). It also has the ability to run a bulky swords dance set that uses it's great defenses in conjunction with its high attack and bullet punch.

 

[Wizarus]

I'm gonna have to disagree. What it is able to wall are pretty significant parts of the metagame, and its version of support is phenomenal due to its refusal to give up momentum while doing its job. Sweep and wall are honestly pretty outdated terms that can't be used to define how strong of a team player Rotom-W is, especially mid-game. S-rank Rotom-W this generation is pretty synonymous with S-rank Jirachi last generation in that while they're not threatening with overwhelming sweeping or walling potential, they still help to be a huge glue by providing so many assets in just one team slot.

I'm going to disagree on Rotom-W being on 5th gen Jirachi level. With Rotom-W has a few viable sets, Jirachi was almost anything you wanted it to be. Physical Attacker, Special Attacker, Mixed Attacker, Revenge Killer, Bulky sweeper, Bulky Pivot, Special Wall, Physical Wall, Anti-Lead. I'd compare Rotom-W right now to 5th generation Latias.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

So far, Mega-Scizor hasn't been mentioned. While it definitely has some issues, it also possesses strengths which I feel allow it to fit into A-Tier as a defensive/supporing threat.

Mega-Scizor was shafted in its early life for having attack significantly lower than a choice banded scizor, which many believed would resign it to live in the shadow of it's devolved form. Others believed Mega-Scizor would not be capable of competing for the elusive mega slot on a team. However, as the metagame evolved, Mega-Scizor only became better.

First of all, the Knock Off and Defog buffs give Mega-Scizor a very interesting support movepool to play around with. Not only did the knock off buff benefit mega-scizor in it's support capabilities, but it also gave Mega-Scizor a niche as a great switch in to powerful Knock Offs from the likes of Landorus-T, Crawdaunt, Conkeldurr, and others. Mega-Scizor possess better bulk than Skarmory on both sides, along with access to reliable recovery in roost. As the icing on the cake, Mega-Scizor gets U-Turn, which, off of even an uninvested base 150 attack, does considerable damage. The ability to wall a significant portion of the Metagame (70/140/100 defenses- compare to Skarmory's 65/140/70; additionally, M-Scizor only has 1 weakness). A near perfect counter to threats like Kyurem-B who can check most physical attackers in the tier, Mega-Scizor also possesses high enough offenses (unlike Skarmory) and a decent enough support movepool to avoid most set-up, has access to priority in the form of Technician Bullet Punch, and can keep hazards off the field with defog- Mega-Scizor is one of the premier defog users for VoltTurn and balanced teamstyles (although in the latter, it faces stiff competition from Lati@s). It also has the ability to run a bulky swords dance set that uses it's great defenses in conjunction with its high attack and bullet punch.

Megas arent going to be ranked. If a pokemon can only be viable with a mega it will simply get a ''mega'' tag to indicate this which clearly inst scizor's case.

 

[Norge]

It cannot be S rank as it cannot Sweep majority of the meta with little trouble, it cannot wall majority of the meta with little trouble, and it cannot support the meta as well as a S rank could. It is A+ for this reason.

Could you please be more specific? What exactly outclasses Rotom-W as a support pokemon? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering what exactly is holding it back from being S.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'm going to make a ballsy move and propose Mega Venusaur for S-rank, rather than, in my opinion, its unfitting placement in A-rank.

If we look at the requirements for a Pokemon to be S-rank,

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Mega Venusaur fits this criteria almost perfectly. Base 80 HP along with base 123 Defense and 120 Special Defense make it an exceptionally bulky tank, capable of completely walling an enormous amount of Pokemon. To top off this excellent defensive spread, Thick Fat cuts out two of Venusaur's most common weaknesses in Ice and Fire, making it even harder to deal with given its two weaknesses to Flying- and Psychic-type attacks. Grass/Poison is also a formidable defensive typing, netting resistances to common Electric-, Water-, Fairy-, and Fighting-type attacks. Even though Synthesis is its only true means of recovery, and a bit shaky one at that, Mega Venusaur's bulk tagged with Leech Seed and Giga Drain make Synthesis's unreliability almost a non-issue.

Mega Venusaur is no sitting duck either by any means. Base 100 Attack and base 122 Special Attack is absurdly high for any bulky Pokemon, making Mega Venusaur the true definition of tank. Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb coming off of that Special Attack hits hard, not even factoring in the potential for Sludge Bomb's poison effect. Mega Venusaur is also capable of running Earthquake to catch its #1 switch-in off guard: Heatran. It also hits other Steel-types, such as Bisharp, Jirachi, and Genesect, pretty hard. Furthermore, access to Swords Dance in tandem with Mega Venusaur's bulk can make it a menace to deal with, one example of its unpredictability.

Honestly, I don't think there's any Pokemon that can check or counter more threats than Mega Venusaur in the current OU metagame. You can EV it physically or specially defensively to take on whatever Pokemon you want it to take on. Even if you don't invest in any particular defense, it's still a difficult Pokemon to outright 2HKO. I for one genuinely believe Mega Venusaur is one of the best, if not the best, bulky Pokemon one can even ask for in OU, easily checking and counter an impeccable amount of top-tier Pokemon and select Mega Evolutions. I mean, I could go ahead and spend time compiling a list of everything it can beat, but I know people can attest to its effectiveness. I know for a fact many others agree with me.

Mega Venusaur for S-rank.

 

[SergantGold]

Could you please be more specific? What exactly outclasses Rotom-W as a support pokemon? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering what exactly is holding it back from being S.

It's not a matter of being outclassed its a matter of performance. I personally do not believe Rotom-W is S in the current meta.

I'll what i think should be put here:

Empoleon ===> B-
It's great Water/Steel defensive typing and great utility move pool consisting of bits like Knock Off, Defog, Roar and SR lets it constantly switch in easily and remove/set the hazards or slap off the opponents item, or Roar them out. It really can stay in easily now because of the depression in fighting-type pokemon usage because of fairies.

Rotom-H ===> A-
I believe Rotom-H can be just as good as Rotom-W this gen with rain being far less common and the rise of some new threatening steel and grass types like Mega Lucario, Aegislash, and Gourgeist-H/L/S/R for Rotom-H to munch on. It also received a new niche in status absorbing, as it is immune to Paralysis and Burn.

Mega Heracross ===> A
It's an absolutely brilliant Wallbreaker and Bulky Sweeper with its 185 Attack, Skill Link effectively giving your coverage moves ~125 power. It also nicely achieves solid perfect coverage with EQ/Pin Missle/Rock Blast/Bullet Seed which lets it hit (I think) all of the meta neutrally or better, and alongside with its beefy 80/115/105 bulk lets it steamroll through unprepared teams

Bisharp ===> A-
With Defog becoming common and the steel type nerf actually making it better as its dark moves can hit steels neutrally, I believe Bisharp should be A-. It "blocks" defog in a way because if the defogger hits it with defog it becomes at +2, which is enough for it to sweep. Also its unique typing lets it not completely lose steel's previous resits to dark an ghost, which is a nice little quirk. I don't think it should go higher than A- though because of its annoying common 4x weakness to fighting and other things.

please excuse the fact that i copy-pasted it from my earlier posts i don't really want to sped ~10 minutes rewriting the same exact thing

 

[Norge]

It's not a matter of being outclassed its a matter of performance. I personally do not believe Rotom-W is S in the current meta.

I'll just list everything I think should be what it is
Empoleon ===> B-
Mega Heracross(Heracross) ===> A
Rotom-H ===>A-
Bisharp B ===> A
Rotom-W S ===> A+

Umm what you said kind of makes no sense. Being outclassed and being outperformed are the same thing really. Also, being outclassed by other pokes is one of the criteria for lower rankings in the OP.