No, that is not what the ranks mean. And the amount of pokemon in each tier is irrelevant, they don't need to "spread out" just to even out the tiers more.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
- Status
>it walls most dragon types
Using Garchomp and Dragonite, pretty much the only relevant OU dragons:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 232-274 (83.7 - 98.9%)
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 232-274 (68.2 - 80.5%)
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Gardevoir: 154-183 (45.2 - 53.8%)
So, no.
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 174-205 (62.8 - 74%)
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 140-165 (50.5 - 59.5%)
etc.
Gardevoir's only form of recovery is also wish, which is not reliable. It just doesn't have any walling capabilities (but does counter Lati@s) but has just enough bulk to check (except if they, you know, have boosts.) However, Scarfed Gardevoir is also capable of this, and that does not take up a mega slot AND can use Trick+Scarf, potentially crippling something like Blissey, or troll something with Destiny Bond.
Anyway, looking at Mega Gardevoir:
Pluses:
-great 165 special attack
-good special bulk
-Calm Mind
-powerful attack in Pixilate Hyper Voice which can bypass substitute
-good coverage in Ghost/Fairy/Psychic/Fighting
-okay speed
Minuses:
-only okay speed. 100 is really not good for a sweeper. And, unlike Medicham (who also has 100 speed), Gardevoir can't boast ridiculously powerful attacks without boosting with Calm Mind, limiting its capability to break walls. It can, however, 2HKO nearly everything with various coverage moves: Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by either of Psychic or Psyshock, Heatran is 2HKOed by Focus Blast, and anything that doesn't resist Pixilate Hyper Voice is either OHKOed or 2HKOed by it.
-weakness to steel a ghost. Psychic typing is an unfortunate liability right now, with Ghost being a very popular attacking type. A Steel weakness is primarily bad because of Bullet Punch, as scizor is still a very common Pokemon
-poor physical bulk. It's bad, nuff said
There is also, however, Gardevoir's tremendous support movepool, which in gen V NU made it a highly popular choice, as it kept the opponent guessing as to what its role in the team would be. Of course, you'd not want to waste your mega on a Dual Screener, but Gardevoir can run something like Will-o-Wisp to take care of its counters: bring Gardevoir in on something that doesn't threaten it, and use WoW as the opponent switches to Scizor or Excadrill or something. Then you can just switch out, with your counter crippled for the rest of the match (sans heal bell.) But, adding in support moves, it gets a bit crowded. Will-o-Wisp is about all it can afford to run alongside three attacks, or CM+two attacks.
All said, M-Gardevoir can hit hard, can do a bit of team support by burning physical attackers, and can boost to break through walls (or Psyshock) and has the coverage to wreck defensive cores, but has very poor physical bulk, only decent speed and is vulnerable to common threats like Scizor and Aegislash, so I would put it at B judging by what else is in there (lolM-Alakazam.)
The Mega-Venusaur calls are very wonky, as no Mega-Venusaur runs that much Special Attack. This means even regular Gardevoir can take a Sludge Bomb from Mega-Venusaur, Calm Mind or not. Trying to showcase Mega-Gardevoir's power against a target weak against your STAB when regular Gardevoir can also do the same regardless after a Calm Mind (albeit with Psyshock) only serves to prove its redundancy. I know you were trying to prove to the other user that Mega-Venusaur does not stop Mega-Gardevoir, but trying to bring this calc up to compare Mega-Gardevoir's superiority over Gardevoir doesn't really prove anything.
You've also acknowledged that Mega-Gardevoir still cannot switch into Mega-Venusaur and Gengar, even with the Special Defense increase (only serving to prove my point how insignificant this change is), so Mega-Gardevoir only checks Gengar. Scarf Gardevoir on the other hand can still check Gengar, only it does not have to take any damage to do so.
Also, while judging a Pokemon's matchup against Ranked threats is a good place to start, we shouldn't immediately place a Pokemon higher than those it beats, otherwise why don't we place Goodra above Heatran and Rotom-W? We have to assess its matchups against the meta as a whole.
I think you're missing the bigger picture here. Aside from Calm Mind sweeping, what does Mega-Gardevoir do better than regular Voir?
- Scarf Gardevoir can check a wide variety of fast sweepers (not just Dragons), as many of them do not resist Fairy. it also has Trick, Destiny Bond, Memento, Healing Wish or whatever the fuck to screw up opponents, making it a veritable threat against both offensive and defensive teams alike.
- Support Gardevoir vs Support MegaVoir is very similar to the comparison of Blissey vs Chansey: one has passive recovery, while the other has better bulk. However, while Chansey has substantially greater bulk than Blissey as a whole, all MegaVoir has over Gardevoir is +20 Special Defense. People are still considering Blissey even when Chansey's bulk far outclasses Blissey's purely for the passive recovery, so you can imagine how overshadowed support Mega-Voir is compared to regular Voir.
Okay, so we know MegaVoir should stick to Calm Mind sweeping, but is it good at it? Now I won't deny MegaVoir's Special stats would burst through the roof after just one Calm Mind, but what of its other stats? 68 HP / 65 Def? 100 Speed with no way to overcome it? That is very prone to any faster physical attacker or priority user to just step in and stop it in its tracks. MegaVoir doesn't even have Leftovers anymore (a common item to see on bulky boosters), so it is even more susceptible to physical attacks than regular Gardevoir is. I'm aware that MegaVoir has its advantages, but those flaws do not put it any higher than B in my opinion. It just doesn't seem to outperform its regular counterpart in much of its roles. I wouldn't at all be surprised if you used a CM Leftovers Gardevoir and do just as well.
When I started reading your post where you did not agree on Y-zard being A-rank, I thought you were about to push it for B-rank, and my head geared up for a bunch of rebuttals.
I totally agree with the part where you compare Y-zard matching up with all the consensus S-ranked Pokemon. As someone who adores Y-zard to death and uses it on a sun-based team, I can safely vouch for your comparisons in all these matchups: MegaLuke, Aegislash and Genesect, 3 mons that trouble seemingly everyone on smogon, doesn't even begin to register on my mind when I see them thanks to Y-zard being on my team.
If you look past the awful stealth rock weakness, Fire/Flying actually has some really awesome resistances, most importantly to the omnipresent Earthquakes, as well as to bullet punches and mach punches. Add on a resistance to Fairy type moves that potentially trouble Dragons that you want to use on sun teams, and you realize Y-zard actually serves not only as the useless sun-bringer that Ninetales was, instead being useful offensively, defensively and supportively. If you could nominate "team captains", Y-zard would have to be one of the best examples.
However, I'm still reluctant to call it an A+ or S, because rocks. This means it really DOES need support, suiting the rank-A descriptor.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
In addition to my previous post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3495992/page-12#post-5102936) stating Mega Venusaur's flaws (WAY too many for an S-rank mon) I would like to point out that it doesn't even fit the description of S-rank:
It also loses to Talonflame and M-Pinsir regardless.
M-Venusaur needs a huge amount of support to be effective: a cleric that can get rid of burn (since it's WoW bait), a Defogger/spinner that can remove SR/Spikes and a partner wall such as Heatran who can wall the things M-Venusaur cannot. That's already 3 pokemon right there.
M-Venusaur doesn't have "little opportunity cost" because it's forced to use Synthesis pretty much every other turn due to the lack of Leftovers and vulnerability to passive damage. Its only way to create free turns is the inaccurate Sleep Powder, which isn't that hard to deal with now that Overcoat mons and Grass types are immune to it.
The worst part is that M-Venusaur can become setup bait because its STABs are resisted by everything and their mother, its best coverage move, Earthquake, is nullified by half the metagame, it's slow and it's Taunt bait. Pretty much anything reasonably bulky with Substitute/Taunt will use it as setup bait. Or even stuff that isn't bulky like SubGengar, who fears only the uncommon Knock Off.
It can't really perform multiple roles, it's just a wall, though it's unique in that it can go either physical or special so I'll give it that.
Finally, M-Venusaur doesn't really have any "unusual strenght" and as I said before it has many flaws. While it's a powerful pokemon, it just doesn't compare with the likes of Genesect and Mega Lucario, who are rightully placed in the S-Rank.
It's more like Rotom-W, who has been dropped to A+, though I'd argue M-Venusaur should be placed even lower but let's get it out of the S-rank first.
M-Venusaur can be either physically or specially bulky to do its job, not both. Without max physical bulk it can't wall physical M-Lucario and without special bulk it can't wall M-Charizard Y and special M-Luke. Other powerful attackers like Genesect, Deoxys-S and Salamence can break through it with repeated hits regardless of its build.
It also loses to Talonflame and M-Pinsir regardless.
M-Venusaur needs a huge amount of support to be effective: a cleric that can get rid of burn (since it's WoW bait), a Defogger/spinner that can remove SR/Spikes and a partner wall such as Heatran who can wall the things M-Venusaur cannot. That's already 3 pokemon right there.
M-Venusaur doesn't have "little opportunity cost" because it's forced to use Synthesis pretty much every other turn due to the lack of Leftovers and vulnerability to passive damage. Its only way to create free turns is the inaccurate Sleep Powder, which isn't that hard to deal with now that Overcoat mons and Grass types are immune to it.
The worst part is that M-Venusaur can become setup bait because its STABs are resisted by everything and their mother, its best coverage move, Earthquake, is nullified by half the metagame, it's slow and it's Taunt bait. Pretty much anything reasonably bulky with Substitute/Taunt will use it as setup bait. Or even stuff that isn't bulky like SubGengar, who fears only the uncommon Knock Off.
It can't really perform multiple roles, it's just a wall, though it's unique in that it can go either physical or special so I'll give it that.
Finally, M-Venusaur doesn't really have any "unusual strenght" and as I said before it has many flaws. While it's a powerful pokemon, it just doesn't compare with the likes of Genesect and Mega Lucario, who are rightully placed in the S-Rank.
It's more like Rotom-W, who has been dropped to A+, though I'd argue M-Venusaur should be placed even lower but let's get it out of the S-rank first.
I didn't really want to read through the several pages of posts, but what about Contrary Serperior? I know it had a piss-poor move pool, but still. I feel it is perfectly viable in this metagame. I was thinking a set consisting of Leaf Storm (obviously), Dragon Pulse, HP Fire, and either Substitute or Giga Drain in the fourth moveslot whilst holding Life Orb/Leftovers depending on the fourth move. Sorry if this post seems silly, I'm still new to this whole thing and I don't post much.
Contrary Serperior is not released yet, and yes IMO its shallow movepool really kills it.
Specs Contrary Leafstorm spam could be devastating, so long as things that resists it (that's a lot of things, inluding quad resists like Heatran, Scizor, Mega Y-zard, Mega Venusaur...) are out of the way.
I just realized that Mega Blastoise is nowhere on this list yet, despite it being mentioned a few times. To me, I think it is quite the literal definition of a B ranked Pokemon, maybe B+. Though it doesn't sweep or wall the majority of the tier, it has an extremely solid niche of being possibly the best offensive spinner in the OU tier, bar Excadrill, due to its quite solid 79/120/115 bulk, powerful 135 Special Attack coming off of a Pokemon that almost always runs Modest, and a wide array of Mega-Launcher boosted high power moves to make up for its lack of held item, most notably Dark Pulse which reliably beats almost all Spinblockers, bar the rare Spiritomb and Specially Defensive Sableye. I really think this thing speaks for itself, and requires no further explanation as to why it holds a solid niche.
You can make this fuking point to ANY pokemon. Watch this:
I could do this for a lot more pokemon if you really want me to, the point being, you need to phrase that arguement a heck of a lot better, since as it stands it applys to a shitload of mons.
EDIT
NEW RULE
Im not going to rank something if its not getting an OU analysis, basically because if its not getting an OU analysis, then its usually not viable (unless someone makes waves with it down the track). Considering I remember rejecting Arcanine on OU QC, its not getting ranked, period.
Last edited:
Also, can we take a momentary break to appreciate the fact that Charizard is listed as an A tier threat in our OU viability thread? My, what a weird gen this has been so far, and I'm loving it.
In practice, mega-ala is frail. I don't think it comes anywhere close to S rank. I'm glad you mentioned mega-gard, because it's probably better with the ability to remove trace rather than gain it as well as a ridiculously powerful hyper voice. Gard may be way slower, but I haven't seen mega-ala used nearly as successfully as mega gard due to the difference in bulk and loss of one of the most powerful STABs in the tier.
Heliolisk? It has an OU analysis if I remember correctly, plus I wrote an explanation on why I think it should be C-tier on page 12.
It has a preview, however the index doesn't have it listed as currently having an OU Analysis that I can see. Also, something like Helioisk (which iv had limited success with), id want a few more opinions on before id actually tier it.
Yeah, I should've brought in the advantages to his typing too.
But basically, I don't find "Stealth Rocks" a justifiable reason to keep him down myself. I don't like to bring in "team support" arguments, as those generally explain the inferiority of the pokemon, but with the nerf to hazards through Defog and with Excadrill sitting in OU as an incredible spinner, rocks have lost a bit of it's merits. Don't take me wrong, no team should run without them, but they are easier to handle. And while you bring in the defensive use in his typing, more specifically towards fairies, it also means that the Latis are even better teammates to sun than they used to be. Excadrill is also a great partner, as ZardY soaks up fire attacks and avoids EQs, whilst Drill can take any Electric or Rock move coming towards ZardY. And Drought which benefits both against water type.
A+ is still in the A bolk, just as a upper part of the rank, and all of the current standing A+ers needs support in one way.
But in the end, it is still a very minor change. And I'm assuming by time we'll list the mons in the ranks from "most useful" to "least useful", in which case he'd either be very high A or lesser A+.
As far as my experience with it goes, it is simply a slower Jolteon. It has surf and Focus Blast, which is nice, but it really doesn't seem to be an option in OU. It could be a mid-UU when that time comes, to be fair. Raikou still outclasses it.
Last edited:
Regarding Heliolisk, see my post on page 12. I think its Solar Power boosted Volt-switch with no drawbacks gives it a very strong niche in OU. It also has the unique advantage of being able to sponge Rotom-W's attacks.
I guess it is a niche, but I wouldn't call it C+ material. I can give it a C rank, if need be, as it under the sun has an effective Choice Specs. But that's really all it has to offer. It either has to run an ability that takes it basis around a now-shaky playstyle (weather), or running an ability that dents it's offensive capabilities a lot.
Sylveon
Banned deucer.
Tyranitar is without a shadow of a doubt S rank. It's actually better this gen then it was last gen and last gen it was S rank. The weather nerf didn't really affect him at all because even last gen sandstream was really only used to counter other weather so like I said Tyranitar didn't get affected by weather nerf at all in fact it helped in some ways because your team mate Pokemon won't be taking damage as much as when weather was infinite. Tyranitar has always been a great stand alone Pokemon but this gen it got so much better. If you go to the Tyranitar thread you will see just how bulky this monster is with Assault Vest. Tyranitar checks/counters a ton of threats: Alakazam, Charizard Y, Starmie, L@tias, Talonflame, Volcarona, Gengar, Espeon, Xatu, etc. Tyranitar is really easy to fit in to pretty much any team. It's really just that good. It fits S ranks description of being very versatile because it can pull off a variety of sets effectively. Band, AV, Stealth Rock Tank, Scarf, Mixed Lure, DD, Weakness Policy. Mega Tyranitar is also amazing. The DD set is very easy to set up as Tyranitar is hard to 2HKO without a fighting type move. In a metagame with Ghost, Dark, Normal and Flying priority everywhere, Mega Tyranitar really shines and people should really use it more. It also survives Aqua Jet from Azumaril, Bullet Punch from Band Scizor even at 75% health. Let's not forget Tyranitar's ability allows it to break sashes and often turn 3HKO's into 2HKO's or 2HKO's into OHKO. Although I can understand why Tyranitar hasn't had much discussion because everyone's focused on the new mons but Tyranitar really deserves S rank. Also Steel typing got nerfed this gen which means Tyranitar is even deadlier this time around spamming Crunch and Pursuit. Tyranitar does have it's flaws as with any other Pokemon but they are thoroughly mitigated by it's substantial strengths.
I don't think that a Stealth Rock weakness should be taken into account too much when ranking Pokemon. Although being SR weak does imply that a mon needs support to keep them away, I'd argue that this should fall under support for the whole team. Every team would have hazard removal in high-level play, so saying that a certain mon can't be S rank or A rank because it needs hazard support is kinda moot.
Also, I posted this a few pages ago:
Also, I posted this a few pages ago:
It was ignored. Thoughts on Entei, everyone?
Have you used M-Venusaur extensively? I have and I can attest to the fact that it does not need a 'huge' amount of support to be effective. I use a Wishpasser (Vaporeon) and a Defog user (Mandibuzz), but they also support other Pokemon on my team (Genesect, AV Tyranitar). Synthesis is hardly a move you're required to use every other turn. Leech Seed + Giga Drain gives you most of the recovery you'll ever need.
You seem to be assuming M-Venusaur has no teammates, and even worse, you're assuming those teams can only exist in an effort to support Venusaur. Right now, there may not be a greater tank in the metagame. Perhaps that's where the issue arises: you seem to be mistaken that Venusaur is purely a wall. Venusaur can dish out awesome damage with Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb. Yes, you're walled by Ferrothorn, but seriously it isn't much of a threat to well prepared teams. Mandibuzz completely nulls its efforts.
As for M-Lucario, I've never ran into a problem where the opponent is eager to switch into my Venusaur. Leech Seed is a huge pain in the ass for a Pokemon with no recovery of their own, and it doesn't even 2HKO at +2 with Close Combat (I use 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD Calm) after Leech Seed + Giga Drain. Meanwhile, you do ~50% back. It's hardly a total loss.
I don't think M-Venusaur deserves to be in the same breadth as Genesect (really nothing does, not even Aegislash) but it is at LEAST A+.
Two Nominations to make: Hippowdon(Don't know why this thing isn't on there yet) for A Rank and Metagross for C Rank.
Hippowdon is one of the best physical walls, giving you pretty much everything you could ask of one. Its weaknesses are usually special, and while there are some physical users (Azumarill, Mamoswine, Gyarados), these can be handled by team support, and there's no wall that can handle everything. Hippowdon can stop many of the biggest threats like Physical Lucario, Talonflame, Garchomp, Terrakion, Charizard-X, Pinsir, and Excadrill, able to either hurt these things with EQ or phaze them out with Whirlwind. It's also an extremely reliable stealth rock setter, and it has slack off to distinguish itself from Landorus-T. I'm hard-pressed to find a good reason to use any other physical wall over Hippowdon as Hippowdon can take almost every physical attacker and has great longevity. It's also got a good attack stat coupled with Whirlwind, so it's not setup bait. It does give common pokemon like Lati@s and Rotom-W free switch-ins, but this is why it's A-rank and not S-rank.
Metagross wasn't a great pokemon last generation, and while it's still not the best choice for most teams, the AV set is actually quite good. While it's now weak to ghost and dark, its steel typing still makes it very good defensively, and it makes a good switch in to any fairies, being able to deal with them handily. It checks NP Lucario very well, as with the AV it has no chance of 2HKOing unboosted or OHKOing at +2. It's also practically a counter for Lati@s, since it takes a pittance from any attack they have to throw at it, and can checkmate them with pursuit. It's still slow, easily walled, and gives easy switch-ins to things, but Metagross can often pull its weight on the right team. Even if it drops down to UU this gen, it will still be viable in OU, checking a good deal of threats while remaining a solid offensive presence and being very difficult to OHKO.
Hippowdon is one of the best physical walls, giving you pretty much everything you could ask of one. Its weaknesses are usually special, and while there are some physical users (Azumarill, Mamoswine, Gyarados), these can be handled by team support, and there's no wall that can handle everything. Hippowdon can stop many of the biggest threats like Physical Lucario, Talonflame, Garchomp, Terrakion, Charizard-X, Pinsir, and Excadrill, able to either hurt these things with EQ or phaze them out with Whirlwind. It's also an extremely reliable stealth rock setter, and it has slack off to distinguish itself from Landorus-T. I'm hard-pressed to find a good reason to use any other physical wall over Hippowdon as Hippowdon can take almost every physical attacker and has great longevity. It's also got a good attack stat coupled with Whirlwind, so it's not setup bait. It does give common pokemon like Lati@s and Rotom-W free switch-ins, but this is why it's A-rank and not S-rank.
Metagross wasn't a great pokemon last generation, and while it's still not the best choice for most teams, the AV set is actually quite good. While it's now weak to ghost and dark, its steel typing still makes it very good defensively, and it makes a good switch in to any fairies, being able to deal with them handily. It checks NP Lucario very well, as with the AV it has no chance of 2HKOing unboosted or OHKOing at +2. It's also practically a counter for Lati@s, since it takes a pittance from any attack they have to throw at it, and can checkmate them with pursuit. It's still slow, easily walled, and gives easy switch-ins to things, but Metagross can often pull its weight on the right team. Even if it drops down to UU this gen, it will still be viable in OU, checking a good deal of threats while remaining a solid offensive presence and being very difficult to OHKO.
I would like to nominate Mega-Abomasnow for B+. It has great bulk and fantastic mixed attacking sets, as well as a unique stab combination, allowing it to smash through many common threats, such as the omnipresent Rotom-W. It can go purely special, purely physical, or mixed, allowing it to decide between bulk and versatility. It fits in well on a trick room team too with its low base speed, but it can still overcome this through ice shard. It can run a defensive set as well, with leech seed and substitute allowing it to stall by using the hail. The weather nerf has hurt abomasnow greatly, but it still remains the only viable hail-setter in Ou, giving it an important niche. It is fairly overshadowed by mega venusaur, but it serves its role well.
Oh yeah, and Shuckle for SS+.
Oh yeah, and Shuckle for SS+.
On a bit of an off topic from what's going on, I'd like to see Florges move down from B or even off the list. Florges is completely and utterly outclassed by Sylveon. They both can provide Wish and cleric support, however, Florges provides a much smaller Wish than Sylveon. While it has higher SpD, that is nullified by Sylveon's higher HP, and as I said Sylveon's respectable HP makes it better at Wish passing, and this also gives it better physical bulk. They both have tiny movepools, so there's no advantage in using Florges except for some silly Grass moves. Pixilate Hyper Voice also gives Sylveon an easy edge over Florges, so Sylveon hits notably harder than Florges. There is little reason to use Florges with Sylveon around and so the flower should not be anywhere near B Rank.
Can you explain a bit more in why Tyranitar is S rank? You only enumerated Ttar's strengths, of which I don't disagree with, but I don't see anything he has that makes him S rank.
Offensive-wise, it loses out to all other mons in the S-tier, except for Deo-S, but that's not really the reason why that thing is S. Ttar even has poor matchup against the rest of A+tier except for Lati@s and Talonflame.
Utility-wise, it can set up rocks, provide sandstorm and be tanky. Not really something I would say S-class worthy, but not really useless either.
Defensive-wise, it still sports a myriad of weaknesses, even as tanky as it is. One more reason is the fact that it has no recovery options besides leftovers.
All in all, Ttar is a great pokemon, yes. But not as great as much as to be placed in S. Imo its placing in A is rightly justified.
You are talking about nukes. Calling Gengar a Nuke is like calling Alakazam or Magnezone "Nukes". You are talking about circumstances in which Keldeo and ZardY are given boosts with their STABS but haven't even considered the fact that Gengar is not used as a nuke. That fact alone is exactly why I likened it to Genesect, who has less SpA than Gengar, less speed, and what Gengar lacks in a decent ATK stat for switch-hitting, it makes up for being able to use a great number of Status moves. It's STABS are not choice locked, and doesn't need to be, nor are its STABs gonna miss.
To answer you question in short, it's coverage is much more powerful than the Pokemon you've listed. Latias runs HP Fire, Keldeo runs HP Grass/Electric, Charizard Y's STABs and coverage are all inaccurate. That's what sets Gengar above them. He can stay on the field longer than those two as well.
With that said, Genesect is in S-rank, and this is my comparison. You're talking about putting Specs on a Keldeo or using Draco Meteor Latias, but these have great setbacks as well, as a nuke would. Gengar does not perform those kinds of jobs. The job it performs as I stated in my prior post, as well as it having perfect coverage and an ability that's still great to this day, is what sets it above them.
Also, if you're wearing Assault Vests just to stop Gengar, then that should show you something there.
I'm imagining this.
Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge
- Payback
- Poison Jab (If not, a fairy will wall him.)
Gengar could easily Sub-disable a Payback. So no, Gengar's only choice wouldn't be Destiny Bond, and this adds to Gengar's unpredictability. What are the chances that a Pokemon that you switch Conkeldurr out for is a Pokemon that gets hammered by one of Gengar's moves? If it doesn't, well, Gengar is behind a Substitute, so now it's able to get in a free attack, even on Pursuit Scizor or Tyranitar, the latter having to come in very carefully because of a possible Focus Blast. Is that Pokemon gonna have an Assault Vest too? It's not just about Raw power my man, but how the Pokemon effects the way the metagame is played, and the viability of a Pokemon to a number of teams.
Lastly, if there wasn't a need for more unpredictability, and if Conk's that much of a prob, well, Gengar now has Dazzling Gleam.
Last edited:
I do understand what you are saying, but I'm not comparing Mega Gardevoir to regular Gardevoir, as they are both two very different pokemon. I still think that it should be A-/A Rank because "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time". As you have said yourself, this applies to Gardevoir, and actually outspeed a majority of the STAB-type threats with 100 Speed + EVs. I do agree that both pokemon deserve to be on the list, but from my experience working with both Pokemon, Mega Gardvoir is better at not only getting people out of sticky situations, but continuing on to smash or at least damage another few Pokemon depending on the oppononent's Strategy.
Also, my comment on Venasaur was comment on a earliet post, and showing that Gard has lots of use in OU due to versatile typing.
Another thing is that regular Gengar is in A Rank, and MGardevoir has only 10 less speed, superior typing, and substantially more bulk. Not to mention Hyper Voice's power.
TL;DR: Both formes are two great pokemon with many different strategies, and both deserve an A Rank as they are simmilar to Gyrados and its Mega forme.
Last edited:
- Status