Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[BurningMan]

I don't think that a Stealth Rock weakness should be taken into account too much when ranking Pokemon. Although being SR weak does imply that a mon needs support to keep them away, I'd argue that this should fall under support for the whole team. Every team would have hazard removal in high-level play, so saying that a certain mon can't be S rank or A rank because it needs hazard support is kinda moot.

Also, I posted this a few pages ago:

It was ignored. Thoughts on Entei, everyone?

There is exactly one reason to use Entei in OU and that is if you are stubborn enough to think that having a tiny niche with Sacred Fire makes it suddenly viable. There is a reason that Entei was RU last Gen and NU the Gen before. There are just so many better Fire types to use that all have a useful secondary typing, better abilities, better movepools and better stats.

Lets look at its typing first you claim that it is excellent, but i completly dissagre it is SR weak which is bad but not crippeling, the real problem is that it lacks a useful set of resistances and is weak to a ton of common attacking types almost every attacker in OU has a way to hit it for SE damage or hits at least neutral with its Stabs except for a few Pokemon, but this essentially holds true for every Pokemon in the game and isn't in any way outstanding. Fire is a very good coverage move, but not a great Stab as there are just no types that can deal with all of its resists at once and even if there were Entei propably wouldn't have it because of its rather shallow movepool.
Which brings me to my second point its move pool which is just awful outside of two exceptions in Sacred Fire and Extreme Speed, it has no good boosting moves, no outstanding support moves and the worst of all not even decent coverage moves, for gods sake its best coverage moves are unstabed Iron head and Stone Edge or a Hidden Power coming from a uninvested 90 base SpA and thats it sure Sacred Fire makes physical mons think twice upon switching in but there are just so many Pokemon that can come in without much hesitation regardless of Sacred Fires burn chance. It has no way to hurt Water or Dragon types and almost every decent team got something that is able to stop it in its tracks.
The final nail in its coffin are that its stats are all around good, but in no way exceptional. 115 base attack and 100 base speed are ok, but nothing outstanding for OU standarts where the Pokemon are either blazingly fast or hit insanely hard and sometimes even both at the same time. 115/85/75 is great bulk for an offensive Pokemon, but when you are weak to all hazards and have so easily exploitable weaknesses that is going to put in in a different perspective. it stats suggest Tank, but it just can't take that role with its weak typing and lack of support moves.

 

[DaiGuren]

You are talking about nukes. Calling Gengar a Nuke is like calling Alakazam or Magnezone "Nukes". You are talking about circumstances in which Keldeo and ZardY are given boosts with their STABS but haven't even considered the fact that Gengar is not used as a nuke. That fact alone is exactly why I likened it to Genesect, who has less SpA than Gengar, less speed, and what Gengar lacks in a decent ATK stat for switch-hitting, it makes up for being able to use a great number of Status moves. It's STABS are not choice locked, and doesn't need to be, nor are its STABs gonna miss.

To answer you question in short, it's coverage is much more powerful than the Pokemon you've listed. Latias runs HP Fire, Keldeo runs HP Grass/Electric, Charizard Y's STABs and coverage are all inaccurate. That's what sets Gengar above them. He can stay on the field longer than those two as well.

With that said, Genesect is in S-rank, and this is my comparison. You're talking about putting Specs on a Keldeo or using Draco Meteor Latias, but these have great setbacks as well, as a nuke would. Gengar does not perform those kinds of jobs. The job it performs as I stated in my prior post, as well as it having perfect coverage and an ability that's still great to this day, is what sets it above them.

Also, if you're wearing Assault Vests just to stop Gengar, then that should show you something there.

I'm imagining this.

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge
- Payback
- Poison Jab (If not, a fairy will wall him.)

Gengar could easily Sub-disable a Payback. So no, Gengar's only choice wouldn't be Destiny Bond, and this adds to Gengar's unpredictability. What are the chances that a Pokemon that you switch Conkeldurr out for is a Pokemon that gets hammered by one of Gengar's moves? If it doesn't, well, Gengar is behind a Substitute, so now it's able to get in a free attack, even on Pursuit Scizor or Tyranitar, the latter having to come in very carefully because of a possible Focus Blast. Is that Pokemon gonna have an Assault Vest too? It's not just about Raw power my man, but how the Pokemon effects the way the metagame is played, and the viability of a Pokemon to a number of teams.

Lastly, if there wasn't a need for more unpredictability, and if Conk's that much of a prob, well, Gengar now has Dazzling Gleam.

You don't judge a special attacker though by its coverage. Even if its coverage, ZardY still has a better Flamethrower/Solarbeam/Focus Blast if you're arguing the accuracy. Fire Blast, aside from the 15% chance to miss has no drawbacks.

And no, Ass. Vest is not worn just for Gengar, you do know that, right? I only used Conk as example for defensive purposes. After all, isn't Gengar supposed to be a counter to fighting types so no matter how Gengar outplays, it is still moot. Also, Gengar's subs will be broken by Conk's Ice punch. I mean,

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 144-170 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Conk comes in on a sub, uses Ice punch and breaks the sub, Gengar uses Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam. Next turn Conk can use Knock Off. If Gengar uses disable, its dead. If Gengar uses substitute, it will get broken again, next turn it can Disable Knock Off but dies to Ice Punch. Really, its a lose-lose situation. So yeah, your S-rank right there, getting effed over a by a mon that its supposed to counter.

Really, Gengar doesn't come close to what Genesect can bring aside from Disable+Substitute, which, as shown above, is gimmick unless used on a mon that has crappy coverage move. Also, Gengar's supposedly "excellent" coverage can't even 2HKO Conk with a SE hit. You can bring up Ttar all you want but everybody knows that Ttar has an issue with Focus Blast, no matter who's carrying it.

So yeah, unless you bring up something that legitimately makes Gengar an S-rank then no, it does not deserve it. Sorry bud but "excellent" coverage + speed doesn't cut it nowadays, not when you're Gengar-tier frail. You can bring up statuses, go ahead. It can make some nifty surprises which are all niche and not worht S, except for maybe Destiny Bond, in which case congratulations you made a 1-for-1 trade.

 

[jgj]

Is Salamence viable at all this gen? I've seen very little discussion about it other than Charizard X outclassing it as a DD user. Its scarf set isn't as great as it used to be but its still usable. A special set with Draco/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast/Filler(eg.Tailwind, Roost) catches lots of people off guard.

 

[Homeslice]

Nominating Entei for at least B Rank (same rank as Infernape)
Entei has a usuable 115 attack and 100 speed for an offensive mon. It also has above average (to say the least) bulk for an offensive mon- 115/85/75. He hasn't changed much since last gen, so really, what makes this guy so much better?

He gets SACRED FIRE. A physical type Fire attack, 100 base power, 50% chance to burn. Yes, 50%. This gives him a niche in being a stronger and bulkier albeit slower Infernape that can spread Burn like no tomorrow. The most efficient set would probably be the Choice Band set:

Entei @ Choice Band
Pressure
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Sacred Fire
-ExtremeSpeed
-Iron Head
-Stone Edge

It should be noted he can also run an Assault Vest to use in conjunction with the burn he's spreading, in which case you may also choose to run Flame Charge if you want more speed. It also gets Return and Bulldoze if you care that much.

Calcs on things that it can threaten/check/counter (Some of these show bulk with Assault Vest, so pay attention)

252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 274-323 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 204-240 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 348-410 (108.4 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 206-246 (56.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 768-904 (271.3 - 319.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 176-208 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

Obviously he loses some bulk due to hazards but keeping them off are relatively easy and he's more of a mon to spam Sacred Fire then be a hit and run attacker.

Perfect fit for B Rank.

 

[Monte Cristo]

And no, Ass. Vest is not worn just for Gengar, you do know that, right?

> ASS. Vest

> ASS VEST

> ASS VEST

>ASS VEST


I'm sorry but I just had to notice that, sorry for the immaturity, just notifying that that isn't the best choice of words

In other stuff, ginganinja I remember this from another old gen 5 viability thread: write ups, I think writing up why the pokemon is S rank can really help people know why and could make for better argument basis, both pros and cons of why it's there have to be there ofc, unless it's S, then you can just go full positive (from what I remember, it wasn't in the OU one last gen even though I suggested it). Either that or a list of the sets that make the pokemon that rank. I think a fair bit of us would be in favor of doing write ups for some pokemon if this was a legitimate system

 

[Hydro Pimp]

I think we should be ranking the Pokemon itself, with its mega form taken into account as part of it, rather than the mega forms and regular forms separately. Yes, the Mega forms make the Pokemon play very differently, but that adds versatility and unpredictability to the original Pokemon, which isn't being taken into account. Charizard can go X or Y, and you don't entirely know which one it is, so it has an element of surprise, which is important if you're trying to counter it. Gyarados and Scizor might mega evolve, or they might just stay in their regular forms, again playing very differently in each case.

Versatility is what got Jirachi into S-rank at the end of BW. If the sets had been ranked individually, there's no way it would have been S. Same goes for something like Landorus-I, we don't rank Sheer Force and Sand Force separately. Ranking sets individually is (kind of) what we're doing here with the mega forms. At the end of the day, mega forms are an option a Pokemon has, and unless the opponent can immediately see whether your Pokemon is mega evolving, and what to (and they can't), then we should still be ranking the original Pokemon, with the mega sets being part of their options.

I can see why this was done, because we're used to stuff like the Deoxys formes being ranked differently, but mega forms are more like Meloetta, where the Pirouette forme is not (and should not be) ranked separately.

 

[Shiruba]

jfc Oiawesome have you ever heard of "boxers" before

Also, why is Infernape in B? Fighting's not what it used to be with Talonflame running around and powered-up ghosts in the game, but its main niche last gen [sun attacker] is pretty much dried up, and it loses to most of the stuff in S & A rank.
Am I missing something crucial here?

 

[fenyxofshadows]

Am I missing something crucial here?

He checks Lucario fairly decently by resisting Bullet Punch and responding with Mach Punch, and outspeeds a lot of other priority-users. He also hits hard with a fast STAB Flare Blitz, which several threats are weak against. The definition of B fits Infernape; he can't sweep a majority of the metagame, but he has an offensive niche in a fast powerful priority that is of a type that not many players prepare for, and he has the speed, power, and typing to fulfill his niche properly.

 

[Ropeburn]

Is Salamence viable at all this gen? I've seen very little discussion about it other than Charizard X outclassing it as a DD user. Its scarf set isn't as great as it used to be but its still usable. A special set with Draco/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast/Filler(eg.Tailwind, Roost) catches lots of people off guard.

Salamence is still completely viable. The Choice Scarf Moxie set is still a frightening combo that no other dragon can pull off, and with intimidate, it can run a successful Dragon Dance set. It faces competition with Dragonite in the bulk department, but its major asset is in its speed. The Mix set is a fantastic wallbreaker, and Moxie is just a godsend for Salamence. This is why I'd like to go ahead and nominate Salamence for A. While Dragons aren't the offensive threat they used to be, Salamence still fulfills the A criteria, in my opinion.

 

[____________]

You don't judge a special attacker though by its coverage. Even if its coverage, ZardY still has a better Flamethrower/Solarbeam/Focus Blast if you're arguing the accuracy. Fire Blast, aside from the 15% chance to miss has no drawbacks.

And no, Ass. Vest is not worn just for Gengar, you do know that, right? I only used Conk as example for defensive purposes. After all, isn't Gengar supposed to be a counter to fighting types so no matter how Gengar outplays, it is still moot. Also, Gengar's subs will be broken by Conk's Ice punch. I mean,

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 144-170 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Conk comes in on a sub, uses Ice punch and breaks the sub, Gengar uses Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam. Next turn Conk can use Knock Off. If Gengar uses disable, its dead. If Gengar uses substitute, it will get broken again, next turn it can Disable Knock Off but dies to Ice Punch. Really, its a lose-lose situation. So yeah, your S-rank right there, getting effed over a by a mon that its supposed to counter.

Really, Gengar doesn't come close to what Genesect can bring aside from Disable+Substitute, which, as shown above, is gimmick unless used on a mon that has crappy coverage move. Also, Gengar's supposedly "excellent" coverage can't even 2HKO Conk with a SE hit. You can bring up Ttar all you want but everybody knows that Ttar has an issue with Focus Blast, no matter who's carrying it.

So yeah, unless you bring up something that legitimately makes Gengar an S-rank then no, it does not deserve it. Sorry bud but "excellent" coverage + speed doesn't cut it nowadays, not when you're Gengar-tier frail. You can bring up statuses, go ahead. It can make some nifty surprises which are all niche and not worht S, except for maybe Destiny Bond, in which case congratulations you made a 1-for-1 trade.

Please explain to me how A fire/flying-type with the moves Solarbeam, STAB Flamethrower and Focus Blast has better coverage than a Ghost/Poison-type Pokemon with Levitate and the moves STAB Shadow Ball, STAB Sludge Bomb/Wave and Focus Blast?

To refer to Psypokes again, let's compare both in terms of coverage. I'm aware that Charizard does well in covering his own tail, as do Gengar, what does separate the two is that Gengar, while having two STABS, is not walled whatsoever.

Gengar



Charizard Y



It takes a scrollbar to even cover everything your set is walled by. While Y needs Air Slash to have nothing resist its moveset, Gengar can use that extra slot for a variety of Status moves, or even an attack. Let me not forget to mention that Solar Beam and Drought are a bit redundant in what they do, because if Sunny Day is up, it already reduces the damage taken from Water-type attacks, and a water Pokemon wouldn't even come in on it without some form of weather control. I never knew why people used Solar Beam with any form of Charizard in the first place. It has always sucked for Ninetales as well when I played against it. If a Drizzle Pokemon comes in, you pretty much lose a turn and can't switch out if you charge a SB.

Also, you're scenario with Conkeldurr is improbable and also makes Assault Vest that less viable. For starters, one does not just simply bring out a Conkeldurr against a Gengar. That just doesn't happen. You can do all of the dmg calcs all you want, but never in my good days of battling have I ever just sent Conk out on Gengar under any circumstance. Also, you say this.

Conk comes in on a sub, uses Ice punch and breaks the sub, Gengar uses Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam.

This is implying that not only did you come in on Gengar's sub, and thinking you were not gonna get hit, but you came in thinking you were going to not get hit again and actually use some hidden agility, with Conkeldurr outspeeding Gengar to break its substitute with Ice Punch. The truth of the matter is, by the time Conkeldurr is able to use that Knock Off, he is already hit 3 times, giving you that guaranteed 3HKO. Conkeldurr also cannot heal because of AV, and who knows what would happen, with how many switches Vest Conk would have to make, how long he would last absorbing entry hazards.

You also keep naming all of these things Gengar can do yourself and then say it doesn't have much going for it, and it all comes down to a "niche". Seriously, the presence of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb/Wave is what makes it unpredictable.

Then you have the Status moves: Disable, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Substitute are the main ones. Then you have things that you don't see often, like Will-o-wisp and Clear Smog. Want to take care of that Chansey? What about Hypnosis, Mean Look and Perish Song? Probably should taunt it before that though...but Chansey would likely switch out into a Scarf U-turner like Scizor that usually beats that set...but of course, Shadow Ball being unresisted lets it get a nice chunk off if Scizor decides to bullet punch, since Gengar likes having the Focus Sash on for this set.

We haven't even gotten to it's other moves if it wants to go all-out-attack: Thunder(bolt), Energy Ball, and now Dazzling Gleam. Not only now does he now have an unresisted Shadow Ball unless you're dark or normal, but now if Gengar switches in on a fighting move from a fighting Pokemon, it can do SE damage on it. You can seriously scrap Focus Blast for Dazzling Gleam if Scrafty and Dragon-types scare you that much, because the new Poison/Ghost attack combo covers enough for you to do this.

S-rank.

 

[Slayerblade]

Gengar isn't S rank. It has way too many short comings and generally isn't as threatening as the other pokemon in S rank. It's defences are terrible, it cannot take non fighting priority or neutral hits at all. Ghost is a great attacking type and arguably the new Dragon, but Shadow Ball has average base power at best. It's good, but not good enough for S rank.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Please explain to me how A fire/flying-type with the moves Solarbeam, STAB Flamethrower and Focus Blast has better coverage than a Ghost/Poison-type Pokemon with Levitate and the moves STAB Shadow Ball, STAB Sludge Bomb/Wave and Focus Blast?

To refer to Psypokes again, let's compare both in terms of coverage. I'm aware that Charizard does well in covering his own tail, as do Gengar, what does separate the two is that Gengar, while having two STABS, is not walled whatsoever.

Gengar

View attachment 6509

Charizard Y

View attachment 6508

It takes a scrollbar to even cover everything your set is walled by. While Y needs Air Slash to have nothing resist its moveset, Gengar can use that extra slot for a variety of Status moves, or even an attack. Let me not forget to mention that Solar Beam and Drought are a bit redundant in what they do, because if Sunny Day is up, it already reduces the damage taken from Water-type attacks, and a water Pokemon wouldn't even come in on it without some form of weather control. I never knew why people used Solar Beam with any form of Charizard in the first place. It has always sucked for Ninetales as well when I played against it. If a Drizzle Pokemon comes in, you pretty much lose a turn and can't switch out if you charge a SB.

Also, you're scenario with Conkeldurr is improbable and also makes Assault Vest that less viable. For starters, one does not just simply bring out a Conkeldurr against a Gengar. That just doesn't happen. You can do all of the dmg calcs all you want, but never in my good days of battling have I ever just sent Conk out on Gengar under any circumstance. Also, you say this.



This is implying that not only did you come in on Gengar's sub, and thinking you were not gonna get hit, but you came in thinking you were going to not get hit again and actually use some hidden agility, with Conkeldurr outspeeding Gengar to break its substitute with Ice Punch. The truth of the matter is, by the time Conkeldurr is able to use that Knock Off, he is already hit 3 times, giving you that guaranteed 3HKO. Conkeldurr also cannot heal because of AV, and who knows what would happen, with how many switches Vest Conk would have to make, how long he would last absorbing entry hazards.

You also keep naming all of these things Gengar can do yourself and then say it doesn't have much going for it, and it all comes down to a "niche". Seriously, the presence of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb/Wave is what makes it unpredictable.

Then you have the Status moves: Disable, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Substitute are the main ones. Then you have things that you don't see often, like Will-o-wisp and Clear Smog. Want to take care of that Chansey? What about Hypnosis, Mean Look and Perish Song? Probably should taunt it before that though...but Chansey would likely switch out into a Scarf U-turner like Scizor that usually beats that set...but of course, Shadow Ball being unresisted lets it get a nice chunk off if Scizor decides to bullet punch, since Gengar likes having the Focus Sash on for this set.

We haven't even gotten to it's other moves if it wants to go all-out-attack: Thunder(bolt), Energy Ball, and now Dazzling Gleam. Not only now does he now have an unresisted Shadow Ball unless you're dark or normal, but now if Gengar switches in on a fighting move from a fighting Pokemon, it can do SE damage on it. You can seriously scrap Focus Blast for Dazzling Gleam if Scrafty and Dragon-types scare you that much, because the new Poison/Ghost attack combo covers enough for you to do this.

S-rank.

The amount of things gengar hits super effectively or the amount of things that resist it's coverage don't make it S rank. There are a bunch of shortcomings of gengar, although before diving into that first I would like to address something: Ghost is not the fucking new dragon. I've seen countless people saying it is which is bullshit. The reason dragon was so almighty powerful was multiple reasons: A) Lacking in immunities and resistances, while normals do have an immunity gen 5 dragon does match up in the amount of resistances gen VI ghost is, so I guess that's ok B) They had amazing BSTs and crazy power, the most powerful ghost move we have in this tier is aegis shadow ball, which is strong but it's 1 pokemon, gengar can do it too but the power difference is very much so noticeable while near all dragons had this crazy kind of BST and power last gen (and mainly this gen too): Kyurems, Latis, Haxorus, Mence, Dragonite, Garchomp, and more. and C) Their moves base power was insane and unmatched, outrage 120, draco 140 BP etc. the best ghost has this gen is freakin', shadow ball :/ which equates to the weakest common dragon move: dragon claw strongest ghost matches dragons weakest, hm that doesn't sound equal. and D) The ease of set up and set up moves and other movepool dragons had was unheard of, blasting fire blasts off 120 SpA, EQ off 130 Atk, dragon dance and calm mind off 110-140 attacking stats etc. The best set up moves ghosts have is aegislash SD, which is very overrated and not even very hard to stop.

Anyways onto gengar, gengar has terrible defenses, it's moves doesn't hit hard enough (even sludge bomb, it's most powerful caps at 135 BP after STAB), and it has no way to boost it's stats and has to rely on shit miss (my nickname for focus blast) for coverage, combine that and the fact that if it wants to run disable with sub or any move combo it has to forgo any decent hopes of coverage (focus miss isn't good when you consider the average damage it does to it's MANY counters and the fact that it can and will miss) overall, along with it's positive gengar can only reach a maximum of A(neutral not +) in my eyes, it's a nice offensive support with disable and dbond and stuff like that but it's way too managable and just doesn't do it's job good enough to be S

B/A-/A Rank

 

[blasphemy1]

Salamence is still completely viable. The Choice Scarf Moxie set is still a frightening combo that no other dragon can pull off, and with intimidate, it can run a successful Dragon Dance set. It faces competition with Dragonite in the bulk department, but its major asset is in its speed. The Mix set is a fantastic wallbreaker, and Moxie is just a godsend for Salamence. This is why I'd like to go ahead and nominate Salamence for A. While Dragons aren't the offensive threat they used to be, Salamence still fulfills the A criteria, in my opinion.

I'm unaware of the consensus surrounding DD Mence, but in my experience it is severely outclassed by Dragonite and Mega Charizard X. Its biggest selling point is Intimidate, but when your goal is to sweep lategame it's only truly useful a couple times a game. Compare that to Dragonite, who has Multiscale, Extreme Speed, and considerable bulk, and to Charizard, who can't be burned, takes neutral damage from Ice, and has a fantastic STAB to complement Dragon moves, and there's little reason to use DD Mence. The Scarf Moxie set is still excellent, especially since Stealth Rock is easier than ever to keep off the field. However, I don't think one set merits A ranking. I think B+ would be fair considering its best set is an effective revenge killer but fails to do anything useful against Togekiss, Azumarill, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran, etc.

 

[____________]

Gengar isn't S rank. It has way too many short comings and generally isn't as threatening as the other pokemon in S rank. It's defences are terrible, it cannot take non fighting priority or neutral hits at all. Ghost is a great attacking type and arguably the new Dragon, but Shadow Ball has average base power at best. It's good, but not good enough for S rank.

If not S-rank, a high A+, but I'll still say S.

Still, Gengar get's a +1 advantage on pretty much everything in A+ rank bar Latios, and Latios gets walled by many things Gengar doesn't.

I seriously think Gengar is gonna be the first S-rank/suspect who does not obviously sweep or wall, but the fact that it gives the rest
of the team a distinct advantage due to unpredictability and versatility.

The amount of things gengar hits super effectively or the amount of things that resist it's coverage don't make it S rank. There are a bunch of shortcomings of gengar, although before diving into that first I would like to address something: Ghost is not the fucking new dragon. I've seen countless people saying it is which is bullshit. The reason dragon was so almighty powerful was multiple reasons: A) Lacking in immunities and resistances, while normals do have an immunity gen 5 dragon does match up in the amount of resistances gen VI ghost is, so I guess that's ok B) They had amazing BSTs and crazy power, the most powerful ghost move we have in this tier is aegis shadow ball, which is strong but it's 1 pokemon, gengar can do it too but the power difference is very much so noticeable while near all dragons had this crazy kind of BST and power last gen (and mainly this gen too): Kyurems, Latis, Haxorus, Mence, Dragonite, Garchomp, and more. and C) Their moves base power was insane and unmatched, outrage 120, draco 140 BP etc. the best ghost has this gen is freakin', shadow ball :/ which equates to the weakest common dragon move: dragon claw strongest ghost matches dragons weakest, hm that doesn't sound equal. and D) The ease of set up and set up moves and other movepool dragons had was unheard of, blasting fire blasts off 120 SpA, EQ off 130 Atk, dragon dance and calm mind off 110-140 attacking stats etc. The best set up moves ghosts have is aegislash SD, which is very overrated and not even very hard to stop.

Anyways onto gengar, gengar has terrible defenses, it's moves doesn't hit hard enough (even sludge bomb, it's most powerful caps at 135 BP after STAB), and it has no way to boost it's stats and has to rely on shit miss (my nickname for focus blast) for coverage, combine that and the fact that if it wants to run disable with sub or any move combo it has to forgo any decent hopes of coverage (focus miss isn't good when you consider the average damage it does to it's MANY counters and the fact that it can and will miss) overall, along with it's positive gengar can only reach a maximum of A(neutral not +) in my eyes, it's a nice offensive support with disable and dbond and stuff like that but it's way too managable and just doesn't do it's job good enough to be S

B/A-/A Rank

I have to agree with "Ghost being the new dragon" BS. I made sure that I did not make that for the basis of my argument. That said, I am specifically talking about his importance to a wide-variety of teams...like how Genesect was. Like I said, he already has a wide coverage with just his STAB moves...no other Pokemon in the A+ tier has that. I believe that is what makes up for it's inability to hit like a Proton Cannon. His moves hits hard enough without no set up, and he's fast enough to hit what it needs to to help just about any team I've tried around it. No need to waste a turn setting up, no need to have "Shadow Meteor" and being hampered x0.5 SpA if I hit the wrong thing...usually, the wrong thing for Latios is a steel type...which Gengar can turn around and hit easily with another attack...and as I said in one of my earlier, he does not have to rely on Focus Blast. He can easily have a set like this:

Substitute
Shadow Ball
Sludge Wave/Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam
Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam/Disable

It doesn't hope to have decent coverage, it does. Its Ghosts/Poison STAB attack type is has the most STAB coverage in the game. If there was an Ice/Electric Pokemon, then that would be the one. And with Dazzling Gleam, it means Ghost/Poison/Fairy is just as good, so focus miss doesn't need to be done.

Lastly, I'm weary about the lack of conviction in your ranking at the bottom of your post, lol. We need a bottom line.

 

[SansNickel]

If not S-rank, a high A+, but I'll still say S.

Still, Gengar get's a +1 advantage on pretty much everything in A+ rank bar Latios, and Latios gets walled by many things Gengar doesn't.

I seriously think Gengar is gonna be the first S-rank/suspect who does not obviously sweep or wall, but the fact that it gives the rest
of the team a distinct advantage due to unpredictability and versatility.

I have to agree with "Ghost being the new dragon" BS. I made sure that I did not make that for the basis of my argument. That said, I am specifically talking about his importance to a wide-variety of teams...like how Genesect was. Like I said, he already has a wide coverage with just his STAB moves...no other Pokemon in the A+ tier has that. I believe that is what makes up for it's inability to hit like a Proton Cannon. His moves hits hard enough without no set up, and he's fast enough to hit what it needs to to help just about any team I've tried around it. No need to waste a turn setting up, no need to have "Shadow Meteor" and being hampered x0.5 SpA if I hit the wrong thing...usually, the wrong thing for Latios is a steel type...which Gengar can turn around and hit easily with another attack...and as I said in one of my earlier, he does not have to rely on Focus Blast. He can easily have a set like this:

Substitute
Shadow Ball
Sludge Wave/Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam
Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam/Disable

Lastly, I'm weary about the lack of conviction in your ranking at the bottom of your post, lol. We need a bottom line.

Gengar is eaaasily pursuit trapped and ohko'd by tyranitar, while Aegislash's shadow sneak can OHKO. Gengar doesn't even hit that hard. Compare it to espeon or alakazam. Nobody ever finds them that scary, though they hit just as hard. Sure, gengar is good, and has some nice status/support moves, but it really just doesn't hit hard enough or consistently enough to be S-rank. If it got a boosting move that'd be a different story, but for now it's just an average special attacker.

Also, specially defensive latias is only 3hko'd by shadow ball, and can ohko with psyshock lol

 

[____________]

Also, I need some more context on this quote. I just reminded myself about these lines that need to be elaborated upon that came up during our discussions about Gengar's viability class.

You don't judge a special attacker though by its coverage.

What do you judge a special attacker by? Besides base stats, what is it? This is a serious question because I am sure we all use Special Attackers differently. I do use some for raw power, and I also use some to force switches while plaguing the field with entry hazards, taking the switch time to occasionally set up. What I do know, however, is sometimes, on certain teams, with certain strategies, I can't afford to set up just to be walled by the next Pokemon that comes out. Not only can Gengar force a switch itself, but can set up a substitute and have 3 more extremely viable slots. However, if Keldeo has a sub set, it's 3 slots are walled by a significant portion of the metagame, especially Regular or Mega Venusaur. If it has a Sub-CM set, it becomes walled by Jellicent.

I want your take on the quote.

 

[DaiGuren]

Please explain to me how A fire/flying-type with the moves Solarbeam, STAB Flamethrower and Focus Blast has better coverage than a Ghost/Poison-type Pokemon with Levitate and the moves STAB Shadow Ball, STAB Sludge Bomb/Wave and Focus Blast?

To refer to Psypokes again, let's compare both in terms of coverage. I'm aware that Charizard does well in covering his own tail, as do Gengar, what does separate the two is that Gengar, while having two STABS, is not walled whatsoever.

Gengar

View attachment 6509

Charizard Y

View attachment 6508

It takes a scrollbar to even cover everything your set is walled by. While Y needs Air Slash to have nothing resist its moveset, Gengar can use that extra slot for a variety of Status moves, or even an attack. Let me not forget to mention that Solar Beam and Drought are a bit redundant in what they do, because if Sunny Day is up, it already reduces the damage taken from Water-type attacks, and a water Pokemon wouldn't even come in on it without some form of weather control. I never knew why people used Solar Beam with any form of Charizard in the first place. It has always sucked for Ninetales as well when I played against it. If a Drizzle Pokemon comes in, you pretty much lose a turn and can't switch out if you charge a SB.

Here's why ZardY's coverage is better than Gengar: Gengar doesn't have the firepower to back up its coverage moves. ZardY maybe walled by some stuff(that's why its in A, not S) but everything else is OHKO-2HKO'd. Gengar, even with its superior coverage, doesn't net as many OHKO-2HKOs as ZardY.

Also, you're scenario with Conkeldurr is improbable and also makes Assault Vest that less viable. For starters, one does not just simply bring out a Conkeldurr against a Gengar. That just doesn't happen. You can do all of the dmg calcs all you want, but never in my good days of battling have I ever just sent Conk out on Gengar under any circumstance. Also, you say this.

This is implying that not only did you come in on Gengar's sub, and thinking you were not gonna get hit, but you came in thinking you were going to not get hit again and actually use some hidden agility, with Conkeldurr outspeeding Gengar to break its substitute with Ice Punch. The truth of the matter is, by the time Conkeldurr is able to use that Knock Off, he is already hit 3 times, giving you that guaranteed 3HKO. Conkeldurr also cannot heal because of AV, and who knows what would happen, with how many switches Vest Conk would have to make, how long he would last absorbing entry hazards.

Lemme explain then.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 144-170 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Turn 10:
Player 1 sends out Conk
Player 2 Gengar uses Substitute (81% with lefties heal, 75% if it doesnt have it)

Turn 11:
Player 2 Gengar uses Dazzling Gleam (Conk 55%, Gengar 81%)
Player 1 Conk uses Ice Punch (sub breaks, Gengar 87%)

Turn 12:
Player 2 Gengar uses Substitute (Gengar 62%) //if Gengar used Disable here instead, it's a goner
Player 1 Conk uses Knock Off (sub breaks, Gengar 68%)

Turn 13:
Player 2 Gengar uses Disable (Knock Off gets disabled)
Player 1 Conk uses Ice Punch (Gengar 10%->16% with lefties)

Turn 14:
(Gengar can't use Substitute, Conk is 2HKO'd while Gengar has 10% left)

Conkeldurr is used as a benchmark because it is one of the few relevant tanks on both sides while still retaining the ability to hit hard

You also keep naming all of these things Gengar can do yourself and then say it doesn't have much going for it, and it all comes down to a "niche". Seriously, the presence of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb/Wave is what makes it unpredictable.

Like what I said, Gengar doesn't have the firepower to back off these moves. On frailer stuff yes it can, but the same thing can be said for a lot of niche stuff, so that's certainly not the reason why Gengar can go to S.

Then you have the Status moves: Disable, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Substitute are the main ones. Then you have things that you don't see often, like Will-o-wisp and Clear Smog. Want to take care of that Chansey? What about Hypnosis, Mean Look and Perish Song? Probably should taunt it before that though...but Chansey would likely switch out into a Scarf U-turner like Scizor that usually beats that set...but of course, Shadow Ball being unresisted lets it get a nice chunk off if Scizor decides to bullet punch, since Gengar likes having the Focus Sash on for this set.

We haven't even gotten to it's other moves if it wants to go all-out-attack: Thunder(bolt), Energy Ball, and now Dazzling Gleam. Not only now does he now have an unresisted Shadow Ball unless you're dark or normal, but now if Gengar switches in on a fighting move from a fighting Pokemon, it can do SE damage on it. You can seriously scrap Focus Blast for Dazzling Gleam if Scrafty and Dragon-types scare you that much, because the new Poison/Ghost attack combo covers enough for you to do this.

Now that's some major 4MSS that's talking, which I'm not gonna talk about since I have no experience running those sets. This I will say though, that if Gengar is going to run status moves it's going to half-ass its offensive presence.

S-rank.

Not quite

replies in bold

 

[____________]

Gengar is eaaasily pursuit trapped and ohko'd by tyranitar, while Aegislash's shadow sneak can OHKO. Gengar doesn't even hit that hard. Compare it to espeon or alakazam. Nobody ever finds them that scary, though they hit just as hard. Sure, gengar is good, and has some nice status/support moves, but it really just doesn't hit hard enough or consistently enough to be S-rank. If it got a boosting move that'd be a different story, but for now it's just an average special attacker.

Also, specially defensive latias is only 3hko'd by shadow ball, and can ohko with psyshock lol

I've already ran through these scenarios and simulations. T-tar does not pursuit trap Gengar easily while Gengar is behind a substitute. When Gengar subs, it's going to expose Tyranitar's moveset. Then most-likely, it's going to go for Dazzling Gleam if it's not scarfed for SE damage, then disable the Pursuit so it can switch out, or it can use Focus Blast instead of Disable. It's similar to when I explained a scenario with Scizor. That said, if Gengar does switch out into something that threated Tyranitar, it'll force it to switch out, and these things can really stack up on entry hazard damage. Trust me.

 

[DaiGuren]

Also, I need some more context on this quote. I just reminded myself about these lines that need to be elaborated upon that came up during our discussions about Gengar's viability class.


What do you judge a special attacker by? Besides base stats, what is it? This is a serious question because I am sure we all use Special Attackers differently. I do use some for raw power, and I also use some to force switches while plaguing the field with entry hazards, taking the switch time to occasionally set up. What I do know, however, is sometimes, on certain teams, with certain strategies, I can't afford to set up just to be walled by the next Pokemon that comes out. Not only can Gengar force a switch itself, but can set up a substitute and have 3 more extremely viable slots. However, if Keldeo has a sub set, it's 3 slots are walled by a significant portion of the metagame, especially Regular or Mega Venusaur. If it has a Sub-CM set, it becomes walled by Jellicent.

I want your take on the quote.

If I may rephrase that quote, you don't judge a special attacker by coverage alone.

We have special attackers that muscle through with brute force, we have special attackers that use superb coverage backed with high stats/high bp moves. Imo maybe its just the trend, but nowadays coverage moves just doesn't quite do the trick anymore. We have offensive mons that sports key resistances (I'm looking at Aegislash and Genesect) where a non-STAB SE move does not OHKO them, while retaining the ability OHKO back.

Anyway that's just my take on it, I'll take my leave in order to do research on Gengar in order to back up more of my claims. Remember though that I'm not saying Zard > Gengar, since I firmly believe both rightfully reside in A+. I'm making my argument to be ZardY > Gengar so that even if you prove me wrong, I would've made arguments to justify ZardY == Gengar and not Gengar > ZardY.

 

[____________]

Lemme explain then.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 144-170 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Turn 10:
Player 1 sends out Conk
Player 2 Gengar uses Substitute (81% with lefties heal, 75% if it doesnt have it)

Turn 11:
Player 2 Gengar uses Dazzling Gleam (Conk 55%, Gengar 81%)
Player 1 Conk uses Ice Punch (sub breaks, Gengar 87%)

Turn 12:
Player 2 Gengar uses Substitute (Gengar 62%) //if Gengar used Disable here instead, it's a goner
Player 1 Conk uses Knock Off (sub breaks, Gengar 68%)

Turn 13:
Player 2 Gengar uses Disable (Knock Off gets disabled)
Player 1 Conk uses Ice Punch (Gengar 10%->16% with lefties)

Turn 14:
(Gengar can't use Substitute, Conk is 2HKO'd while Gengar has 10% left)

This is what I mean by an imminent +1 advantage. If Gengar is staying in the battle that long for Conkeldurr, and beats it, that means it did its job, and can probably either be Wish'd by Alomomola, Chansey, etc, or can just come in and do a little more damage, given the leftovers doesn't extend another substitute.

I know why you used Conkeldurr, and I agree with using him as a comparison, but I am in the mindset of battling and strategy, and I would never send my sweet Conkeldurr on that suicide mission.

 

[alphatron]

Charizard Y gets away with using solarbeam because T-tar has no business switching into focus blast. Ninetales couldn't use solarbeam because Ninetales didn't scare Tyranitar or Politoed in the least. There's also the fact that Ninetales didn't have base 159 special attack. The psypokes comparison between the two isn't fair either, because pokemon who aren't going to appear in OU, such as litwick (chandelure usually runs infiltrator now), ho-oh, and giratina.

Gengar's a great pokemon but he's really easy to shutdown. He isn't sweeping teams with poison STAB or a base 80 power move. And it's really easy to take one attack from him and kill him off. Bulky sweepers can tank one of his attacks and OHKO him. And he's not that hard to wall either (Clefable, Blissey, any tyranitar variant that doesn't switch into focus blast). While sub-disable is still good, there aren't a lot of pokemon you can set up on either. You're most likely using substitute against low tier OU pokemon (forretress, bisharp, trevenant with good prediction) and you won't get the chance to do that against the most common, popular, or prominent threats. Looking at the S and A+ tiers alone so far, Gengar isn't giving much trouble to any of those pokemon.

Those are NOT the qualities of something that's supposed to be in the S tier. Gengar is still a good pokemon and the Subsplit, sub-disable, and LO sets (I'm really pushing things with the last one) are all still good. But by no means is he S rank according to the criteria needed for it.

 

[Angie Sirius]

I think we should be ranking the Pokemon itself, with its mega form taken into account as part of it, rather than the mega forms and regular forms separately. Yes, the Mega forms make the Pokemon play very differently, but that adds versatility and unpredictability to the original Pokemon, which isn't being taken into account. Charizard can go X or Y, and you don't entirely know which one it is, so it has an element of surprise, which is important if you're trying to counter it. Gyarados and Scizor might mega evolve, or they might just stay in their regular forms, again playing very differently in each case.

Versatility is what got Jirachi into S-rank at the end of BW. If the sets had been ranked individually, there's no way it would have been S. Same goes for something like Landorus-I, we don't rank Sheer Force and Sand Force separately. Ranking sets individually is (kind of) what we're doing here with the mega forms. At the end of the day, mega forms are an option a Pokemon has, and unless the opponent can immediately see whether your Pokemon is mega evolving, and what to (and they can't), then we should still be ranking the original Pokemon, with the mega sets being part of their options.

I can see why this was done, because we're used to stuff like the Deoxys formes being ranked differently, but mega forms are more like Meloetta, where the Pirouette forme is not (and should not be) ranked separately.

Someone else explained this quite nicely.

I'm not seeing the problem with ranking Mega forms separately. If this were a discussion about tiering, this would be a whole different argument since tiers are so much more mathematical and statistical. However, this is just a subjective ranking of Pokemon based on the consensus of their viability from the competitive community's input. Ranking things differently will have no functional impact on how the game is played, nor will it likely make an impact on how we tier Pokemon with Mega forms.

I know there have been a lot of people saying things like, "Ranking Mega forms separately would be like ranking Pokemon X with item A and item B separately," but that's just not true. Mega forms are so much more drastic a change than swapping items. All Mega Pokemon have stat increases over their base forms, a few have a stat drop, most have different abilities, and several even have different types. Even in the case of Soul Dew, a similarly exclusive item, the only real change is a stat boost to SpA and SpD. There's not even a sprite change or any external action taken to activate the change (i.e. the "Mega Evolution" button), so it's very hard to consider them to be the same thing.

As far as the different transformations go, you have to remember that Mega forms have a lot more in common with Arceus's forms (which were ranked separately) than Meloetta's (which were not). Like Arceus's transformations, a Mega transformation is permanent. The item that causes it can also not be removed with Knock Off, Trick, etc., similar to Arceus's plates. Meloetta's transformation is activated through the use of a particular move, and it can be undone simply by using the move again. Once Meloetta has transformed, it is not locked into its Pirouette form like Mega forms and Arceus forms are. There's even a unique mechanic to activate a Mega transformation, which makes it different than either of the other transformations and gives us reason to create a new precedent.

You also have to realize that most Mega forms are significantly more or less viable than their natural forms. In fact, many Pokemon are used in OU exclusively for their Mega form (such as Kangaskhan before its ban), and these instances need to be represented as such. You might argue that Mega Charizard X is slightly more viable than Mega Charizard Y, while regular Charizard doesn't have any real viability in OU, and so this needs to be demonstrated in the rankings. Meloetta doesn't have this same problem. Meloetta wasn't used solely for its Pirouette form, nor did it have an incentive to transform immediately because its Aria form was so much worse. Both forms had their advantages and disadvantages, and both were viable. Many Mega forms, however, are so much more different. Several such as Ampharos, Charizard, and Pinsir would have never seen the light of OU if not for their Mega forms, and thus it doesn't make much sense to tier these guys as a whole when the only reason they are any good is their ability to change into an almost completely different Pokemon. Likewise, a few normal forms might be even more viable than their Mega forms, and so this honestly needs to be reflected in the rankings.

But again, this is just a subjective ranking, so it's not like tiering Mega forms differently actually hurts the game.

 

[SansNickel]

I've already ran through these scenarios and simulations. T-tar does not pursuit trap Gengar easily while Gengar is behind a substitute. When Gengar subs, it's going to expose Tyranitar's moveset. Then most-likely, it's going to go for Dazzling Gleam if it's not scarfed for SE damage, then disable the Pursuit so it can switch out, or it can use Focus Blast instead of Disable. It's similar to when I explained a scenario with Scizor. That said, if Gengar does switch out into something that threated Tyranitar, it'll force it to switch out, and these things can really stack up on entry hazard damage. Trust me.

Dazzling gleam?
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 86-102 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 6.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gengar subs, ttar switches in.
Gengar uses dazzling gleam, ttar uses crunch.
If gengar uses disable, gengar is dead.
If gengar subs again, sub is broken by pursuit.
Now if gengar switches out, 50% (62.5% if no black sludge) has been done to gengar, while ttar is still healthy
The point is, by switching between crunch and pursuit, gengar can only ever get one attack off. TTar will get the job done (either kill gengar or force it to switch, it will never be KO'd.

 

[RufflesPro]

Nominating Froslass for B+

As it is, while outclassed by Deoxys-S, one of the most amazing Spikers, good amount of speed, unpredictable, versatile, fast Destiny Bond, fast Taunt, and can run T-Wave to get "Free turns". It also can run some quite gimmicky sets such as T-Wave + Hex; it also is the second best Sub-Disable user after Gengar, except that Froslass can use the free turns for setting spikes.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

I think Froslass fits greatly here, it does give the opponent free turns using Spikes, it cannot create free turns easily, but it can still do it, between T-Wave, Disable, Switcheroo, and Taunt, it can easily set up minimum of 2 layers of spikes thnx to Focus Sash, it may be completely flat out stopped by faster taunt, but outside of Crobat, it is faster than all the pokemons that would taunt/defog as regular bases.

Froslass can switcheroo it's scarf to gain a free turns, it can taunt the pokemons setting up, he has to switch so that's a 1 turn, it can disable a choiced pokemons so that's also a free turn, So Disable/Switcheroo/Taunt/Spikes can put 3 layers of spikes. Even though it loses it's focus Sash, it is a bit risky.

OR you can have Taunt/Disable/T-Wave/Spikes w/ Focus Sash, you can also layer 3 layers of spikes.

of course, you can use Froslass for support and just taking down at least 1 pokemons from the opponent, with T-Wave/Disable/Destiny Bond/Taunt or Spikes, you are either setting minimum 2 layers of spikes, crippling foes, making your pokemons faster (T-Wave), or taking minimum 1 pokemon down thnx to fast speed or Destiny bond.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Dazzling gleam?
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 86-102 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 6.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gengar subs, ttar switches in.
Gengar uses dazzling gleam, ttar uses crunch.
If gengar uses disable, gengar is dead.
If gengar subs again, sub is broken by pursuit.
Now if gengar switches out, 50% (62.5% if no black sludge) has been done to gengar, while ttar is still healthy
The point is, by switching between crunch and pursuit, gengar can only ever get one attack off. TTar will get the job done (either kill gengar or force it to switch, it will never be KO'd.

your forgetting to factor in sandstream, js