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Other OverUsed General Discussion
- Thread starter The Grand Babido
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252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 127-150 (33 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 186-219 (48.4 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
Iight so I stand corrected, Talonflame has the strongest priority move outside of Ubers, even though Sucker Punch is a sketchy move that can be played around like in my second replay i posted in my original post.
Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lucario are damn near completely uncounterable. Mega Kangaskhan could easily power through anything with boosted hits coming off base 212 Attack, and Mega Lucario has Adaptability, great boosting moves, incredible mixed attacking stats, and a wide selection of priority moves that can each let it beat different checks. On the other hand, Talonflame is countered by Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Hippowdon, Heatran, Gyarados, and many, many other threats. Its limited movepool means that it has no way of beating these counters, so whatever stops it can stop it HARD. Besides that, it requires Rapid Spin or Defog support in order to function ideally. It's certainly a threat to prepare for, but slapping at least one of its counters on a team is incredibly easy, so it's not nearly as hard to deal with.
EDIT: No need for another post for just one damage calc, but Ningildo:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Impressive, no?
EDIT: No need for another post for just one damage calc, but Ningildo:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Impressive, no?
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I'd like to ask why Charizard-Y is never brought up as a check to (M)Lucario.
As a user of Yzard, I almost never had problems with Lucario users. Granted, that's just my ~1800ish experience with other ~1800ish players, but I'd like to make a case for Yzard being a very reliable check to Luke.
Yzard's typing makes people turn their noses up at that stinky stealth rock weakness, but it actually has some interesting resistances, case-in-point being Steel and Fighting. That's right, Yzard resists both of Luke's STABs, usually Bullet punch or CC. Yzard also happens to have some pretty damn good special bulk, which makes it a strong check for the special attacker variant, which is getting increasingly popular based on my observations. I hardly ever see Lucario carrying stone edge, so that's besides the point.
Sure, you say, Luke is unpredictable. However, Yzard does to Luke what it does to everyone else: Fire Blast him in the face. Yzard can usually take a hit from Lucario, assuming he's not boosted. This is common in sun teams however, which is where Yzard is often located- Lucario often wants to use his priority move to take out the current pokemon on the field immediately. Since Yzard is safe to bullet punch, he can safely switch in and proceed to Fire Blast.
That may sound like a lot of theorymonning, but after more than 20 encounters with Luke I can say this happens very often. So my point is that Yzard is not brought up as a check/counter to Luke often enough.
As a user of Yzard, I almost never had problems with Lucario users. Granted, that's just my ~1800ish experience with other ~1800ish players, but I'd like to make a case for Yzard being a very reliable check to Luke.
Yzard's typing makes people turn their noses up at that stinky stealth rock weakness, but it actually has some interesting resistances, case-in-point being Steel and Fighting. That's right, Yzard resists both of Luke's STABs, usually Bullet punch or CC. Yzard also happens to have some pretty damn good special bulk, which makes it a strong check for the special attacker variant, which is getting increasingly popular based on my observations. I hardly ever see Lucario carrying stone edge, so that's besides the point.
Sure, you say, Luke is unpredictable. However, Yzard does to Luke what it does to everyone else: Fire Blast him in the face. Yzard can usually take a hit from Lucario, assuming he's not boosted. This is common in sun teams however, which is where Yzard is often located- Lucario often wants to use his priority move to take out the current pokemon on the field immediately. Since Yzard is safe to bullet punch, he can safely switch in and proceed to Fire Blast.
That may sound like a lot of theorymonning, but after more than 20 encounters with Luke I can say this happens very often. So my point is that Yzard is not brought up as a check/counter to Luke often enough.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 348-410 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That is why Mega Charizard Y is not often brought up as a Mega Lucario counter or check.
That is why Mega Charizard Y is not often brought up as a Mega Lucario counter or check.
I do believe Msaur walls Luke forever, unless it runs Psychic on NP sets...
As a side note, Mscizor is a pretty nice defogger, especially with that Defense raise. It allows you to avoid the 3HKO from Hippowdon EQ without SR and avoid the 2hko from CB Scizor's Superpower with just max HP, so it's fairly bulky and can check Fairies far more easy then AV Scizor due longevity given by Roost. Yes, it won't be the greatest use of a Mega ever, but it's nice to have something to remove hazards, stay alive, hit hard and still maintain momentum with U-turn (especially useful on bulky Offense).
Also, MChomp is a goddamn monster. I had trouble finding something that can take the EQ, outpace or take another hit and KO, provided it doesn't switch. Attempting to check it with Rotom won't work, as I believe +2 Sand Force Stone Edge is a KO and even if it isn't, odds are Rotom-W is worn down or is going to hang on by an edge of it's life and lose to everything else it could check. Honestly, checking with Scarfers seems to be the best for Bulky Offense (as it is for many other threats, such as Mluke) as checking them with mons that have the bulk to take two hits and OHKOing back is damn near impossible.
As a side note, Mscizor is a pretty nice defogger, especially with that Defense raise. It allows you to avoid the 3HKO from Hippowdon EQ without SR and avoid the 2hko from CB Scizor's Superpower with just max HP, so it's fairly bulky and can check Fairies far more easy then AV Scizor due longevity given by Roost. Yes, it won't be the greatest use of a Mega ever, but it's nice to have something to remove hazards, stay alive, hit hard and still maintain momentum with U-turn (especially useful on bulky Offense).
Also, MChomp is a goddamn monster. I had trouble finding something that can take the EQ, outpace or take another hit and KO, provided it doesn't switch. Attempting to check it with Rotom won't work, as I believe +2 Sand Force Stone Edge is a KO and even if it isn't, odds are Rotom-W is worn down or is going to hang on by an edge of it's life and lose to everything else it could check. Honestly, checking with Scarfers seems to be the best for Bulky Offense (as it is for many other threats, such as Mluke) as checking them with mons that have the bulk to take two hits and OHKOing back is damn near impossible.
You could say that 6th gen has indirectly buffed shaymin over Celebi. Fairy-types taking fighting-type attacks so celebi is out for that job. Steel Types losing their ghost and Dark weaknesses so their far more prevalent and making Celebi's staying power that much weaker. The metagame turning to a more bulky offensive prevalence which is good for shaymin as it has access to the ever lovely Seed Flare and Natural Cure/Rest is the best way to heal ever! Talonflames main counter, Rotom-w is effectively walled by Shaymin. (Though Talonflame itself doesn't do Shaymin any favors) Shaymin has a real niche in this metagame as a bulky offensive Grass-type.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75484177
Stall is still dead tho
this man got destroyed for using hyper offense :]]]
Hyper offense is everywhere it needs to stop :[
haha lol
Stall is still dead tho
this man got destroyed for using hyper offense :]]]
Hyper offense is everywhere it needs to stop :[
haha lol
he was using a Slurpuff dude...
and that stall team is bad for one reason: It lacks MegaVenusaur. MegaVenusaur is the only reason stall is halfway viable and no stall team should lack one.
you also have a Dusclops. this is a bad idea.
I'd Suggest swapping in a Venusaur and Lando-T/Rotom-W (depending on if you wanna keep you Electric typing (and add water, bulky waters are stalls best friend.)or Intimidate more) for Manectric and Dusclops. this preserves your physical bulk and Volt Turn Core whilst nothing bar two sub par mons,
stalls not dead. its just astronomically hard to play.
I would not even remotely consider that team "hyper offense"…
There's also Zen Headbutt on physical sets, which has a pretty good chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, but no one runs that. However, M-Venusaur does not take +2 Flash Cannons well at all.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Physically defensive versions can't take any prior damage without being KO'd after SR damage.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Specially defensive versions fair a bit better but M-Venusaur can't really answer back with anything except Earthquake, which is only a 2HKO with no investment.
I wouldn't exactly call that 'walls forever' by any stretch of the imagination.
How do people feel about continued statements being made that Ghost/Dark are the best attacking types this generation, or at least dramatically improved? That was certainly applicable early on to try to check MGengar and because bulky Ghosts shot up in popularity while MKang was legal, but I don't think it's still a valid statement. They gained slightly more use as a neutral coverage option with the Steel nerf, but let's look at what's actually weak to Ghost/Dark in OU:
| 4 | Aegislash | 14.514% |
| 12 | Gengar | 10.972% |
| 20 | Alakazam | 6.726% |
| 23 | Espeon | 6.662% |
| 25 | Trevenant | 6.049% |
| 33 | Latios | 4.977% |
| 42 | Starmie | 4.152% |
| 47 | Jirachi | 3.900% |
Of those, only 2 are new, and only 1 wasn't weak to Ghost/Dark before - it's Jirachi, who's almost at the bottom of the tier in usage. Gengar, Zam and Espeon are frail and don't usually need to be hit SE to OHKO'd. All the others are covered by three very common coverage types - Fire, Ice and Electric.
Focus Blast/Shadow Ball and Close Combat/Crunch have always been good neutral coverage options used by many sweepers, and that remains true this generation. However, I think people continue to overestimate the usefulness of these types now that MKang and MGengar''s bans have decreased the overall presence of bulky Ghost types, therefore mitigating how often they need to be checked. Nothing that wasn't running a Ghost/Dark move for neutral coverage before has any real reason to add one now in reaction to the XY metagame.
| 4 | Aegislash | 14.514% |
| 12 | Gengar | 10.972% |
| 20 | Alakazam | 6.726% |
| 23 | Espeon | 6.662% |
| 25 | Trevenant | 6.049% |
| 33 | Latios | 4.977% |
| 42 | Starmie | 4.152% |
| 47 | Jirachi | 3.900% |
Of those, only 2 are new, and only 1 wasn't weak to Ghost/Dark before - it's Jirachi, who's almost at the bottom of the tier in usage. Gengar, Zam and Espeon are frail and don't usually need to be hit SE to OHKO'd. All the others are covered by three very common coverage types - Fire, Ice and Electric.
Focus Blast/Shadow Ball and Close Combat/Crunch have always been good neutral coverage options used by many sweepers, and that remains true this generation. However, I think people continue to overestimate the usefulness of these types now that MKang and MGengar''s bans have decreased the overall presence of bulky Ghost types, therefore mitigating how often they need to be checked. Nothing that wasn't running a Ghost/Dark move for neutral coverage before has any real reason to add one now in reaction to the XY metagame.
I don't think looking at solely weaknesses is a valid way to evaluate the usefulness of Ghost/Dark as an attacking type at all, you also have to consider the vast amount of OU that has lost a resistance to Ghost that would have made something like Shadow Ball Aegislash much easier to switch into:
From the 1850+s:
2 | Genesect | 21.49627% | 341231 | 11.138% | 289620 | 11.879%
6 | Heatran | 16.98578% | 305797 | 9.981% | 256060 | 10.503% (Still a solid switch into Aegislash if you're expecting Shadow Ball, but it definitely does more than the scratch it would have last gen)
8 | Excadrill | 12.91188% | 296515 | 9.678% | 218774 | 8.973%
12 | Scizor | 11.14999% | 330017 | 10.772% | 256435 | 10.518%
14 | Ferrothorn | 10.05976% | 319400 | 10.425% | 275987 | 11.320%
19 | Skarmory | 8.83667% | 213533 | 6.970% | 181294 | 7.436%
42 | Mawile | 4.21723% | 117835 | 3.846% | 91028 | 3.734%
Keeping all other changes in Gen VI mechanics the same, all of these mons would have been able to switch into a Shadow Ball easily if Steel hadn't recieved its nerf, however these, in addition to above and not to mention, things that were neutral to ghost last gen make up a huge chunk of OU that can not switch into mons like Aegislash, Gengar or Chandelure well at all. Stating that Ghost isn't a signficantly better attacking type than last gen is ludicrous.
Its not a counter to physical luke. +2 CC OHKOs it. And if stealth rocks are in play, its not a counter to special luke either.
What I argued in my post is that Luke isn't always at +2, although I can see how that isn't really correct. Maybe I've just been battling bad players who don't predict. As for rocks, well, as a user of Yzard, you pretty much put all your eggs in the rapid spin basket- you either are able to spin rocks away or you lose your mega without much struggle.
Didnt you say you were ~1800, i can imagine those players can prodict a switch and set up a sd/np, you shouldnt be switching in your yzard as a counter if rocks are up, it is better to use a more reliable threat, you dont want your mega taking too much damage if it isnt required.
So far, it's been to my luck that Lucario users don't predict my switch and go for bullet punch- therefore allowing me to use Fire Blast and finish him off. Maybe it's just the situation that my team always lands in. I brought up Yzard as a counter because someone posted a list of checks to MLuke in another thread, with Volcarona as one of them. This led to my suggestion of Yzard as an alternate.
I see the problem now, so disregard my post probably.
haunter
Banned deucer.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 175-206 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 117-138 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
M-Lucario doesn't even need to be at +2 or predict. Close combat, even unboosted, is a clean 2hko and even if you come in on the crunch, the following close combat will finish you off, since M-Luke is faster. Not a reliable check, at all.
252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 117-138 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
M-Lucario doesn't even need to be at +2 or predict. Close combat, even unboosted, is a clean 2hko and even if you come in on the crunch, the following close combat will finish you off, since M-Luke is faster. Not a reliable check, at all.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I've been using specially bulky moltres to counter mega lucario. You handle the nasty plot variants just fine, but the SD versions tend to carry stone edge. Or ice punch. Or crunch. It comes down to guessing what that last coverage move is and acting accordingly.
I've tried using Talonflame as a check too, but then I started running into SD mega lucarios at carried Extremespeed instead of bullet punch, which isn't an ohko but will destroy Talonflame if you've taken any previous damage at all.
I've tried using Talonflame as a check too, but then I started running into SD mega lucarios at carried Extremespeed instead of bullet punch, which isn't an ohko but will destroy Talonflame if you've taken any previous damage at all.
For me, Assault Vest Tornadus-T works great as a counter against all special variants of Lucario. Takes 52% max from +2 Timid Flash Cannon, and can retaliate with air slash/heat wave/hurricane. Then, it can switch out and regenerate health as if nothing happened. Imo in general, the special sweeper is easier to counter than the physical sweeper. There are basically no 100% counters to physical Mega Luke.
Huh?
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 52.4 - 61.8%
Maybe you meant this?
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 45.4 - 53.5%
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 11.3 - 13.7%
Hmm, Tornadus-Therian can switch into any unboosted move and force Lucario out or KO it. Even if it takes a Vacuum Wave with Stealth Rock damage, the maximum damage it'll take is 91%.
252 SpA Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lucario: 88.2 - 103.9%
Seems good to me. Focus Blast ensures the KO, but I'd rather run Spikes or Extremespeed.
Whoops my bad. I forgot to change lucario's evs to special attack since showdown's calculator gives physical mega luke as default. I run 232 SDef / 252 HP / 24 Spd (enough speed to outspeed neutral 252 speed kyub), so the correct calc should be the following:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 192-228 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still pretty decent, if you ask me.
Assault Vest doesn't just have benefits for bulky offense, but for stall as well. When you have an item that boosts a defensive stat at the cost of disabling any non-attack forms of recovery, what form of simple HP recovery that several pokemon have comes to mind? Regenerator perhaps? They cant run status-stall moves in the traditional sense of stall, but some Regenerator pokes are very effective at using attacking moves with added effects to support the team. Not saying these would be easy to play with, but hey, this whole thread is about how stall is far from an easy strategy to be consistently successful with.
most pokemon on a stall team do not attack, hence why it's considered a bad item for stall
it's much better for pokemon who can lay the smackdown but could also use the extra bulk, like conkeldurr, excadrill, and goodra
a lot of stall pokemon have a recovery move that doesn't double as an attack (like softboiled or roost instead of drain punch or giga drain), AV is good on certain pokemon but those pokemon designed for stall are usually not attacking and can't afford to run it
it's much better for pokemon who can lay the smackdown but could also use the extra bulk, like conkeldurr, excadrill, and goodra
a lot of stall pokemon have a recovery move that doesn't double as an attack (like softboiled or roost instead of drain punch or giga drain), AV is good on certain pokemon but those pokemon designed for stall are usually not attacking and can't afford to run it
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