Aegislash

[alexwolf]

They're basically the same thing... They use mixed sets to tear stuff apart. One just sacrifices bulk for more power throughout its moveset. They essentially accomplish the same thing in the grand scheme of things. Can't you just merge them together and put in the set details that you can run a more reckless Aegislash set with max Attack and Life Orb?

I don't agree. With max HP, Lefties, and King's Shield you are the definition of a tank, and a check to many dangerous threats, while still hitting reasonably hard, to the point that offensive teams can't wall you, or even balanced teams without the right defensive Pokemon.

However, with LO, a 4th attack, and max Atk, there is no Pokemon you can't break through. You forfeit the ability to check some dangerous threats and act as a pivot and instead focus on breaking down defensive cores, as well as having stronger priority.

Those two roles are very different, or at least different enough for separate sets.

 

[Fuzznip]

I don't agree. With max HP, Lefties, and King's Shield you are the definition of a tank, and a check to many dangerous threats, while still hitting reasonably hard, to the point that offensive teams can't wall you, or even balanced teams without the right defensive Pokemon.

However, with LO, a 4th attack, and max Atk, there is no Pokemon you can't break through. You forfeit the ability to check some dangerous threats and act as a pivot and instead focus on breaking down defensive cores, as well as having stronger priority.

Those two roles are very different, or at least different enough for separate sets.

See my issue is that the set with max HP, Leftovers, and King's Shield still allows you to potentially break through defensive cores and be a general nuisance with that mixed coverage. Leftovers and max HP is simply used for longevity purposes, assuming you want to use Aegislash as a reliable means to frequently check certain threats.

The second set simply passes up the bulk and potentially King's Shield for even more mixed attacking prowess, allowing Aegislash to better break down defensive cores whilst losing out on the ability to frequently check threats it could be doing. They use mostly the same movesets and carry the same idea of a prominent mixed attacker capable of breaking down defensive cores, but each of them do it in a slightly different manner that shouldn't be grounds to completely isolate the two into separate sets.

That's just how I look at the situation.

 

[alexwolf]

The way you are presnting things, you make it sound as if the wallbreaking difference between the two sets is not big. Saying that the tank set can still break through defensive cores is one think, breaking through defensive cores on a casual basis is another thing. When you add wallbreakers to your team, you do it specifically to break through common defensive cores so that the rest of your team can sweep. Tank Aegislash cannot consistently break down defensive cores, as Pokemon such as SpD Hippowdon, Mega Venusuar, SpD Rotom-W, SpD Heatran, Gliscor, Mandibuzz, and even BU Talonflame can all counter you or at least check you for a big amount of time. To explain what i mean even better, the difference between tank and wallbreaker Aegislash is between those two questions that you do to yourself when teambuilding: ''Do i need a strong wallbreaker'' or ''Do i need a solid check to many offensive Pokemon that has good offensive presence''. There are many examples in our existing analyses, of Pokemon that have different tank and wallbreaking sets, even though they could be merged together, which means that those two roles are singinificantly different, to the point where they warrant separate sets.

 

[UltiMario]

What I don't get is why Leftovers is the increase bulk option for Wallbreaker Aegis

Even when you want to live longer, you should still be able to kill things.

This is why Spooky Plate is good, more bulk + almost as much power, and it at least differentiates the items more on the sets.

 

[Punchshroom]

For teammate options, Pokemon that can easily dispatch of Aegislash responses should be mentioned. Ice-types (essentially Mamoswine) hit a lot of the counters / checks. Fairy-types also make good responses to Dark-types, Azumarill receiving special mention for breaking Ground-types as well.

Also, why is Mega-Kanga in C&C? Replace with bulky Krookodile.

 

[alexwolf]

Seven Deadly Sins PK Gaming AccidentalGreed dragonuser Fuzznip ginganinja Plus ShootingStarmie Super Mario Bro

Let's take a decision guys. Should i keep the tank and mixed sets splitted, or should i merge them? Here is how the sets would like like separated and merged:

Tank
########
name: Tank
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Sacred Sword / Iron Head
move 3: Shadow Sneak / Iron Head
move 4: King's Shield
ability: Stance Change
item: Leftovers
nature: Quiet
evs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 12 Spe

Wallbreaker
########
name: The CRUMBLER
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Sacred Sword
move 3: Shadow Sneak
move 4: Iron Head / Hidden Power Ice
ability: Stance Change
item: Life Orb
nature: Quiet
evs: 240 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 12 Spe

Merged Version
########
name: The CRUMBLER
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Sacred Sword
move 3: Shadow Sneak
move 4: King's Shield / Iron Head
ability: Stance Change
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Quiet
evs: 240 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 12 Spe


Don't worry about the slashes on each set, for now we should decide if we want two sets or a merged set for tank and mixed Aegislash. We can decide about the slashes and the details on each set later (Spooky Plate on mixed, Iron Head on AC, etc).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think the merge makes sense. The choice of item and last move is sane enough, and a Moves mention of Iron Head in place of either of the other attacking moves looks solid.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Yeah, I'm agreeing to merge as well. But I'd just mention that in the set details about how the wall breaker set has slightly move coverage, but obviously isn't as good of a tank, but yeah I think you can merge them

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I personally think Aegislash is common enough to warrant some nuance in his analysis, considering "Tank" and "Wallbreaker" are different enough in what they do. The Wallbreaker set is much more effective at breaking open defensive cores, but without HP EVs, it is not able to survive attacks like Mega Lucario's Jolly +2 Crunch, or switch into neutral attacks as comfortably.

I'm fine with whatever happens, but I'd rather we not be concise for the sake of being concise.

 

[Gavin123]

Can Quiet Aegislash with 12 Spe EVs outrun 0 Spe Tyranitar? Most Tyranitar do not run -Spe natures.

 

[jc104]

I can't say I'm convinced by the 12 Spe EVs either, at least with leftovers and max HP. For starters, sacred sword has a fair chance not to OHKO tyranitar, even after SR. The tyranitars can't kill you either, unless you are faster and miss the OHKO. Yes, I would marginally prefer to be faster than -speed tyranitar, but I'm not sure that's worth it.

What proportion of Tyranitars run - Spe natures is difficult to determine.

Spreads | | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 16.759% | | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 7.118% | | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 5.983% | | Naughty:252/252/0/4/0/0 4.974% | | Sassy:252/4/0/0/252/0 4.637% | | Careful:252/4/0/0/252/0 4.058% | | Other 56.471%

All I can say really is that it's less than 60%, probably a lot less. Point is, though, that in a situation where I wanted to go first, I couldn't bank on it at all.

I've become increasingly convinced that slower is better for aegislash, and in addition, the points can be placed somewhere else where they are useful.

 

[Toxicosis]

Can Quiet Aegislash with 12 Spe EVs outrun 0 Spe Tyranitar? Most Tyranitar do not run -Spe natures.

12 Speed EVs (also requires 31 Speed IVs) are needed if they're both running neutral/negative natures, to try to Sacred Sword it out before it does anything.. requires Att EV investment, or entry hazard damage (a 252 HP, 156 Def, 100 Sp.Def Assault Vest Relaxed Tyranitar has roughly a 5.5% chance of being KOed by a Quiet 252 SpA Shadow Ball + 0 Att Sacred Sword and Stealth Rock damage under the Sand).. though would be a solid 2HKO if you predict the Tyranitar switch-in.

 

[alexwolf]

12 EVs is an insignificant amount that allows you to beat a a fairly common threat (mixed SpD TTar). I don't care if you don't OHKO, you come very close in doing so (84.1 - 100%) and almost always OHKO after SR. The EVs stay, unless someone has a good reason for them to be placed elsewhere.

 

[Toxicosis]

12 EVs is an insignificant amount that allows you to beat a a fairly common threat (mixed SpD TTar). I don't care if you don't OHKO, you come very close in doing so (84.1 - 100%) and almost always OHKO after SR. The EVs stay, unless someone has a good reason for them to be placed elsewhere.

I know for my own personal Tyranitar, I pour everything into defenses.. a combination of Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword including Stealth Rock damage fails to KO a 252 HP / 156+ Def / 100 Sp.Def Assault Vest Tyranitar (Shadow Ball is there under the assumption that it's switching into the Shadow Ball, predicting the Ghost-type move)

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Tyranitar: 272-320 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (272, 272, 276, 280, 284, 288, 288, 292, 296, 300, 304, 304, 308, 312, 316, 320)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 48-57 (11.8 - 14.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock (48, 49, 49, 50, 51, 51, 52, 52, 53, 54, 54, 54, 55, 56, 57, 57)

The big debate for this is whether or not you want to outspeed Tyranitar, on a Quiet set for Aegislash, the only Tyranitar set you're really looking at are the negative speed sets.. so mostly the mixed sp.def set Tyranitar set, which leads to two major ones: Assault Vest or Support (I've mentioned this before, but on an Assault Vest set, a Relaxed nature > Sassy nature.. 252 HP/156+ Def/100 Sp.Def provides more stats than 252 HP/252 Def/4+ Sp.Def.. by 5 Def and 1 Sp.Def to be precise)

Against the Support set (mostly thinking of Stealth Rocks with Special Attack coverage), which would run less Def EVs, yes, the 12 Speed EVs are helpful. Though.. Quiet nature doesn't help at all against sets which run no special attacks (neutral speed) at all and the EVs get wasted completely (Aegislash requires 31 Speed IVs for this as well)

Against the Assault Vest set I proposed, you'd be playing more of a prediction game against Crunch (unless they go for safe Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Earthquake), if you outspeed and you realize they survive the Sacred Sword, then you'll be penalized heavily for it. I'd suggest two EV/IV spreads, depending on what the user needs to be done, one with 0 speed (the 12 Speed goes into 12 Att, which raises the Sacred Sword damage)

0 Att EVs: http://puu.sh/6deXQ.png
12 Att EVs: http://puu.sh/6deZ7.png

Though.. the more I think about it, 31 Speed EVs along with 12 Speed EVs definitely wins one possibility and has a possibility of being punished in the other.. while the other one would end up taking damage (or allow Stealth Rocks to be setup), but can end up dealing with the second scenario without as much risk (in an isolated 1v1 situation that is.. not going to really go too much into theorymon for this). Hmm.. the more I think about it though, the more I feel like definitively winning first scenario outweighs winning the second scenario better.

 

[darkarro1]

swords dance
kings shield
shadow sneak
iron head/sacred sword
Item: Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 Hp, 252 Attack, 4 Def/SpD
Nature: Adamant

Aegislash has amazing defences and if hit with a supereffective move will give it 2x attack
Iron head hits fairy types while sacred swords hits dark types- mainly Tyranitar

king's shield
power trick
iron head/shadow sneak/sacred sword
iron head/shadow sneak/sacred sword
Item: Weakness Policy/Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def and SpD, 4 Hp or 252 Hp, 252 Def/Spd and 4 Def/Spd
Nature: Impish/Careful
The choice in this set will depend on which pokemon you plan to send Aegislash after

 

[alexwolf]

Now that we finally decided that we are going to leave the wallbreaking set separate from the tank set, can i get the second QC check so i can start writing this?

 

[Jukain]

is leftovers meant to be slashed on wallbreaker? the whole point of the set is to deal lots of damage, and you want life orb to do that. also, you present the unmerged version with life orb as the only slash. considering everything, spooky plate is the better item if you want longevity, but i don't think it deserves a slash either. life orb is just so important.

with that addressed, qc 2/3

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, forgot to remove Lefties from the wallbreaker set. For now, i slashed Spooky Plate after LO, as it's a good alternative that goes well with King's Shield, but if i see a lot of support for it to go in set details instead no prob.

Thx for the check Jukain, i will get this written up as fast as i can.

 

[Korosenai]

For those first two sets in the first post, do we need to go for 0 speed iv's or does it matter?

 

[Jukain]

For those first two sets in the first post, do we need to go for 0 speed iv's or does it matter?

nope, you run 12 speed evs to outrun sdef mixtar, so you want full speed ivs.

 

[skies]

On the crumbler set, why 12 Speed if you're running Quiet?

 

[Jukain]

nope, you run 12 speed evs to outrun sdef mixtar, so you want full speed ivs.

also:

• 12 Spe EVs outrun 0 Spe Tyranitar and 240 HP EVs give a Lefties number

Not to be rude or snappy or anything, but at least read the OP before you ask a question like that. If it's not in the OP, look around in the thread. If it's nowhere in the thread, THEN question.

This question has already been answered three times in this thread, including in the post right before yours.

 

[Sazoon]

The stat spread really needs to be changed because with a quiet nature the 12 ev's don't let you outspend 0 speed Tyranitar. The 12 ev's only work if you're running a non speed reducing nature or if tyranitar is running a speed lower nature (not sure if that's a thing though).

 

[Shroomisaur]

The stat spread really needs to be changed because with a quiet nature the 12 ev's don't let you outspend 0 speed Tyranitar. The 12 ev's only work if you're running a non speed reducing nature or if tyranitar is running a speed lower nature (not sure if that's a thing though).

Standard support TTar runs Sassy (yes that's very much a thing), so the 12 EVs still allow Aegislash to beat it even with a Quiet nature. 143 > 142 Speed.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give CRUMBLER