Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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I say donphan should be in the B tier.It has rapid spin,Fairy+Ground+Rock coverage,Ice shard for priority,and is a viable user of assault vest because pretty much all of its offensive options are attacking moves.And for those of you wondering how it gets a fairy move,breed it with mawile or something in the field group with play rough.I say B because it is partially outclassed by excadrill,but is still a good choice for a spinner.
It's niche is SR + Rapid Spin, which is why Assault Vest on him isn't crazy, but if you have a reliable pokemon that can set up SR, then I'd say AV is the 2nd best choice, as STAB EQ is always nice, Ice Shard is powerful priority that gets a lot of common pokemons, Play Rough is getting pokemons such as Hydreigon, Latios/Latias, and finally, with Rapid spin, it is just getting hazards off. It is a pokemon with nice niche, so I do have to agree on the "B" tier.
 
I disagree. I think donphan should be in the B- or C tier. The reason is it's speed. Ice shard isn't that powerful, and plenty of pokemon can out speed it and 2hko while taking a hit. Worse, switching into something is hugely problematic. One of the most common pokemon, Rotom W, wrecks it. It only has 1 stab. Examples:
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 252-296 (65.6 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 330-390 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO (before shell smash)
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. -2 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 202-238 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cloyster can finish it off with ice shard or predict a switch and shell smash

good luck though :)
 
Gastrodon shines with Rotom-W around, being a good switch-in against the washing machine most of the time. He isn't outshone by RW either, Gastrodon has a role distinct from tanky RW. RW avoids being OHKOed by weak grass moves and has volt switch, but lacks reliable recovery with leftovers like Gastrodon's. Due to this, Gastrodon can stall and check better than RW, but has more likely counters due to energy ball/giga drain distribution and HP grass. Rotom is usually used to burn with a 100% success rate, while Gastrodon usually uses Toxic to stall and Scald to threaten physical attackers. Finally, Gastrodon likes sand far more than Rotom-W does.

According to the current tier list, Gastrodon is mostly useless against ~23/64 of current OU threats with right set, and can stand up to the most common sets of ~30/64, which I would call a significant portion of the metagame (the list is far from complete, of course) Just within S and A ranks, he is unable to reliably impact only ~16/40 threats, leaving him useful against 60% of the pokemon that should be above/near him on the rankings.

Gastrodon is A-, because he needs protection from grass moves, powerful normal/fighting/fairy/dragon moves, Toxic, Taunt, and sweepers who find him to be setup bait. However, he can go up against a decent portion of the metagame, especially a few very common pokemon.


Assuming this set:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 SAtk
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic
- Earth Power


When it comes to not-so-obvious OHKOS, Gastrodon can OHKO mega-lucario and terrakion after close combat, can OHKO landorus-I and Mega-Mawile after a storm drain boost, OHKOs offensive Aegislash after an attack because it is faster than Gastrodon, and OHKOs Talonflame after Brave Bird recoil.

Checks/counters the most powerful common sets from Rotom, Aegislash, M-Charizard-X, +1Atk Genesect, Terrakion, Heatran, Talonflame, Latias, Dragonite, Greninja, Excadrill, Keldeo, (M)Tyranitar, (M)Scizor, Landorus-T, Gengar, Gliscor, Klefki, Conkeldurr/Bisharp/Weavile if you can lose leftovers, and most defensive pokemon w/o grass moves. I ran a bunch of calculators to figure these out, but firefox crashed and I lost all the data. The things that really stood out were an ability to check +1 SpA Scarf or Lum Genesect sets without Bug Buzz and Aegislash being unable to OHKO Gastrodon at +2 Atk with life orb.

Pokemon without grass moves Gastrodon is scared of include Mega-Ampharos, Latios, Exploud, Azumarill, Mega-Mawile, Mega-Pinsir, Mega-Gardevoir, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, Diggersby, Honchkrow, Porygon-Z, Landorus-I, Kyurem-B, Mega-Garchomp, Crawdaunt, and Garchomp, usually only if they are wearing orb/specs/band for the non-megas. Of course, it's mostly useless against setup, taunt, and special walls that can avoid toxic (Deoxys, Thundurus-I, Blissey, Clefable, Scolipede, Nasty Plot/Calm Minders it can't 2HKO)
While I agree Gastrodon is great, the problem is that while it has great recovery, good resistances, and an amazing ability, it's not bulky enough to wall a good amount of the metagame. For example, it barely avoids the 2HKO from Scarf Garchomp, and it gets 2HKO'd by Choice Band Talonflame. Sure, it can avoid the OHKO on a number of mons, but it can't really do much back. It is not, however, a bad mon. Its resistances and recovery are great. But in a metagame that is without rain (most of the time) it's not as good as it was before. I'd nominate it as a B rank at the most. A/A- is a bit too high.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I agree with Skarmory's A rank. While forretress has been pretty shitty lately (almost no resistances now, the inability to take on ANY spinblocker, either being forced out by everything or being setup fodder for everything), Skarmory has been great. Even though it's rotom-W bait, it has a ridiculous number of opportunities to switch in and get off one move. He's not exactly walling as many prominent sweepers as he could before and the removal or the dark and ghosts resistances hurt him. But much like heatran, he's still great as hell. From what I remember, Brave Bird 2hkos the magic bouncers as well.

Gastrodon though? I don't want to call him A rank. I don't even want to call good anymore. Without rain in the metagame, there isn't as big a reason to use him anymore. And even though rotom-W can't hurt you with either of its STABs, you don't do anything back. I've been using a few different gastrodon sets lately and he merely comes off to me as "decent." It's good against other low end OU pokemon but it's not good against anything else.
 
I disagree. I think donphan should be in the B- or C tier. The reason is it's speed. Ice shard isn't that powerful, and plenty of pokemon can out speed it and 2hko while taking a hit. Worse, switching into something is hugely problematic. One of the most common pokemon, Rotom W, wrecks it. It only has 1 stab. Examples:
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 252-296 (65.6 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 330-390 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO (before shell smash)
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. -2 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 202-238 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cloyster can finish it off with ice shard or predict a switch and shell smash

good luck though :)
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 248-292 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Play Rough is OHKO)
252+ Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 448-528 (137.8 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 246-290 (81.4 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 169-199 (44 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 172-204 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 319-376 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Play Rough + Ice Shard OHKO-es)

Nobody is putting a Donphan against a Rotom-W, unless it's lower than 40%, but even then it's crazy. Rotom-W coming in on Donphan is common, but Donphan wins in that case.

Donphan again won't switch in on a pokemon with 50/180 defending stats or any pokemon that can set up and Donphan cannot 2HKO, furthermore, Cloyster usually runs Jolly and not Adamant. And if Cloyster switches in on Donphan, the Donphan is winning.

Also:

Terrakion:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 224-264 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Aegislash:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 136-162 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 273-322 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 588-692 (181.4 - 213.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Donphan is slower than Aegislash lol)

Talonflame:
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 183-216 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Donphan Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 600-708 (201.3 - 237.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah. There's a reason Donphan has more usage than Keldeo & Terrakion.
 
I guess it comes down to team composition, so Gastrodon is better in B rank. I was hoping to see the first A- pokemon added, Gastrodon is probably better at flat B though. Only specific teams can protect him from his enemies in the metagame. If a better ground/water-type wall exists I'd like to see it placed about him, for now he resists a great combination of types and is buddies with Ttar.

It's good against other low end OU pokemon
I pointed out what it's good against, it can check or counter many S and A rank pokemon sets and can use Toxic on an enemy Rotom-W or earth power poison and steel types that try to absorb it. He isn't just a rain team counter, he has a clear niche in the current ou metagame. I was mistaken to believe he belongs in A, but he's a solid B.
 
Donphan is a good user of knock off because it fucks all spinblockers. It is also extremely spamable early game, and always gets rotom-W. I have used it extensively and it is definitely good, worthy of B- or B. The main problem is that ice shard is too weak against bulk pokemon, doing like 30% to gliscor or landorus. And not doing enough to defensive garchomp/mega garchomp, which are popular. It is great though to have just cause priority is really good in this meta.

Oh and the bigger problem is that aegislash outspeeds. If its LO shadow ball.... gg. That's a huge downer lol

I'm not convinced you should use play rough though. I think that's just fairy jerk.
 
I'm not saying the usage is the reason it's good, I'm just pointing that out to support my argument.
and 6feetunder : I was pointing at the last month's usage, so Donphan would still be more.

And while the ladder is full of bad players, there's also a good amount of good players.
 
I nominate Skarmory for A rank, access to defog gives it a completely new niche that its main rival, ferrothorn, is unable to do and also ensures that theres literally no reason to use forretress ever. Solid physical bulk and typing makes it a great switch in for threats like fire punch-less dragonite, fire blast-less garchomp, landorus-t, focus blast-less landorus-i, heat wave-less tornadus-t, breloom, scolipede, scizor, mamoswine, excadrill, hell its typing is just really that good. Acess to roost sets it apart from every other steel type except mega scizor, however it still has hazards to give it a separate niche from scizor. Skarmory is just really easy to fit into most teams and the fact that it can provide two different (but still crucial for most teams, and even at the same time) kinds of support means its one of those pokemon that will always have a very useful thing to do everytime it comes in.
I completely agree. Skarmory is one of the few defoggers that can come into and wall almost every hazard setter and clear them immediately with defog (exception being deoxys). Additionally, he can whirlwind anything that tries to set up on him which allows it to be put on offensive and stall teams alike. Unlike mega scizor, it has access to lefties, doesn't take up your mega spot and can phaze. As already mentioned, its bulk and typing are amazing and it can wall nearly every physical attacker (can't wall mega lucario, but then again what can) It can also set up stealth rock on the defog set if you want complete hazard control.

It can do its job (clearing hazards, acting as a defensive pivot and phazer) extremely easily and sticks around throughout the match. As such I think that it is worthy of A rank.
 

Colonel M

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I'm not saying the usage is the reason it's good, I'm just pointing that out to support my argument.
and 6feetunder : I was pointing at the last month's usage, so Donphan would still be more.

And while the ladder is full of bad players, there's also a good amount of good players.
And no good players use Donphan aside from jokes or stupidly niche reasons. Come on. Donphan blows - your calcs even proved it.

I need max Atk to 2HKO Garchomp and that alone is stupid.

Seriously why ever bother with Donphan when Excadrill exists? Knock Off and Ice Shard are really shallow reasons to justify it.
 
And no good players use Donphan aside from jokes or stupidly niche reasons. Come on. Donphan blows - your calcs even proved it.

I need max Atk to 2HKO Garchomp and that alone is stupid.

Seriously why ever bother with Donphan when Excadrill exists? Knock Off and Ice Shard are really shallow reasons to justify it.
Bcuz its a wall with a) good defenses and hp, similar to hippo b) has teh rapid sp!n, 3) haz knock off for teh spin blockers and is a rlly good move for walls, d) has priority ice shard which is mad useful, and e) has 120 base atk to use 3 and d.

Excadrill has a hard time switching into f) everything and requires g) an air bubble to be good

oh and it has sturdy.

don't disregard donphan its actually decent this gen.
 
Bcuz its a wall with a) good defenses and hp, similar to hippo b) has teh rapid sp!n, 3) haz knock off for teh spin blockers and is a rlly good move for walls, d) has priority ice shard which is mad useful, and e) has 120 base atk to use 3 and d.

Excadrill has a hard time switching into f) everything and requires g) an air bubble to be good

oh and it has sturdy.

don't disregard donphan its actually decent this gen.
Based on those horrid spelling errors and what not, all I'm gonna say is this:

Go home 114, you're drunk.

Seriously, why use Donphan when there's Excadrill and Defoggers out there.
 
But on the other hand CB Garchomp isn't OHKO-ing, and if you invest in Defense rather than Attack, you are 3HKO-ing, but on the other hand, CB Garchomp has ~50% chance of 2HKO-ing.

And besides, if Jolly 252 Mamoswine 2HKOs Garchomp with Ice Shard, then Adamant 252 Donphan is a good deal, which is a much better tank.

Obviously Excadrill is a better rapid spinner, but Donphan has nice priority which gets really good amount of pokemons. Furthermore it has Knock Off, which is always nice, for utility or for damage, Play rough gets a decent amount of pokemons, and finally it is a much better tank than Excadrill, and is not weak to the common EQ. Excadrill still outclasses it as it has good speed and Mold Breaker. But at least donphan has Sturdy, and at worst cases, it's pulling Rapid spin.

Donphan is outclassed by Exadrill, not completely though, and that's why I see it being B/B-
 
Bcuz its a wall with a) good defenses and hp, similar to hippo b) has teh rapid sp!n, 3) haz knock off for teh spin blockers and is a rlly good move for walls, d) has priority ice shard which is mad useful, and e) has 120 base atk to use 3 and d.

Excadrill has a hard time switching into f) everything and requires g) an air bubble to be good

oh and it has sturdy.

don't disregard donphan its actually decent this gen.
I'll go through Donophan's problems one by one. Donophan is spinblocked by literally every ghost other than aegislash. Its special bulk sucks, so it will die to gengar before it can do anything remarkable with knock off. Ice shard is pathetic and only marginally useful for two pokemon (dragonite and garchomp). The 120 base attack is lower than excadrill's and won't be that huge if you don't invest. Donophan is strictly not a good pokemon; it had a niche on sun teams last gen that it no longer has. I can't see it being anything higher than C.

Even though Donphan has a few useful traits, it is by no means a good Pokemon. It is widely outclassed by other spinners and finds it difficult to stay alive. Overall, Donphan is a very niche Pokemon, and should always be considered as a last resort if none of the other spinners seem to work on a team.
Quote from last generations OU analysis.
 
sturdy is definitely not useless, it resists rocks, so after 1 turn it has full life

since when is being guaranteed not to die next turn a bad thing?
 
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