Forretress [QC 0/3]

[AOPSUser]

Beware, very hazardous

(Preview)

QC: 0/3 [][][]
GP: 0/2 [][]

Overview
########

• Forretress can set up all kinds of hazards.
• It can also use Rapid Spin.
• Great defensive typing in Bug/Steel, with only one weakness.
• Amazing Defense stat.
• Can use Volt Switch (YU NO GET U-TURN) to gain momentum in addition to Spinning.
• Lacks offensive presence.
• Low Special Defense and abysmal Speed.
• No reliable recovery.
• With the buff to Defog, many teams find themselves no longer needing a Rapid Spinner. Defog also gives more ways to remove Forretress's own hazards.

Support
########
name: Support
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Stealth Rock / Spikes
move 3: Gyro Ball
move 4: Volt Switch
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe
nature: Relaxed

Moves
========

• Rapid Spin is the main reason to use Forretress.
• Forretress can lay down Stealth Rock or Spikes very well.
• Volt Switch allows Forretress to act as a pivot as well as a Spinner, can be used to scout, and can be used to escape its counters.
• Gyro Ball is Forretress's main attack and allows Forretress to KO Pokemon such as Terrakion and Mamoswine easily.
• Earthquake is an option to lure in Magnezone, Aegislash, and Heatran, and hit them hard on the switchin. However, Forretress cannot actually OHKO those mons with Earthquake, and they will OHKO back.
• Protect is an option, especially for defensive teams who like to scout the moves of certain Pokemon, such as Banded Talonflame, Scarfed Genesect, Espeon, and Deoxys-S. It also stalls for Leftovers recovery, making Forretress slightly more durable.
• Toxic may be used to hit Jellicent and Gourgeist on the switch and cripple them, but most of Forretress's counters are either immune to Toxic (Aegislash, Gengar, Heatran, Magnezone, Ferrothorn), or don't care about it (LumHarvest Trevenant, Gliscor).
• Running both hazards at once is a viable option, but this requires removing either Gyro Ball or Volt Switch, removing a lot of Forretress's utility.

Set Details
========

• The EVs maximize physical bulk. The 0 Speed IV and Relaxed Nature allows Gyro Ball to hit as hard as possible.
• Toxic Spikes is an option if your team needs it, but it is mostly inferior because Steels are so popular, Excadrill and Defoggers can get rid of them for no cost, and Mega Venusaur can simply absorb them.
• It is possible to run both hazards along with Rapid Spin, but without Volt Switch it cannot pivot and without Gyro Ball it cannot threaten any opponents.
• Overcoat is generally very useful for Forretress because it allows it to absorb Spores and helps against Hail. Most notably, it completely crushes Smeargle.
• Sturdy is useful as well, in certain last-ditch situations, so that Forretress can get an emergency KO or one last Spin.

Usage Tips
========

• Forretress is a great defensive Rapid Spinner.
• It can switch in on many physical attackers, and can either set up hazards or Spin them away.
• Forretress can also act as a pivot with Volt Switch. It can switch in, and use a slow Volt Switch to bring in a teammate for free.
• Gyro Ball allows Forretress to get KOes, but only on fast frail Pokemon and fast Pokemon weak to it (ex. Mamoswine, Terrakion). Generally, Forretress should not be attacking.
• Although situational, Rapid Spin is a contact move, so Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet, and Rough Skin will hurt Forretress. Also, if Forretress faints to one of them while Spinning, the Spin does not work. If you really need to Spin in front of Ferrothorn, only do it once and get out.

Team Options
========

• Forretress's team support opens up many team options.
• Sweepers who appreciate hazards, such as Dragonite, Mega Lucario, and Mega Charizard X, benefit from Forretress.
• Pokemon weak to SR, such as Charizard, Talonflame, and Dragonite, appreciate Forretress's Rapid Spin.
• Pokemon that can defeat spinblockers are very helpful.
• As Forretress has no recovery of its own, a Wish passer would make a good teammate, so Forretress can come in over and over throughout the course of the match.

Other Options
########

• Hazard lead may be used, but Custap Berry is unreleased.
• Specially defensive set.
• Red Card, Shed Shell, Mental Herb
• Hidden Power Ice is an option, but it fails to 2HKO offensive Garchomp, Dragonite, and Salamence without Special Attack investment.

Checks & Counters
########

• Magnezone can get rid of it very easily.
• Taunt and Magic Bounce stop it from setting hazards.
• Bulky Ghost-types such as Aegislash, Trevenant, Gourgeist, and Jellicent block Rapid Spin and prevent Forretress from doing anything.
• Setup sweepers, for the most part, can set up on it. Just watch out for Gyro Ball.
• Fire-type moves will destroy Forretress.

 

[Colonel M]

For consistency's sake I would do it like so:

Support
########
name: Support
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Stealth Rock / Spikes
move 3: Gyro Ball
move 4: Volt Switch / Earthquake
ability: Sturdy
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe
nature: Relaxed

Seeing as Gyro Ball is part of the primary options and it is one of Forretress's main STABs it should get priority before Volt Switch and Earthquake.

Mention the reasons why Toxic Spikes is an iffy option. It is an option, but mostly an inferior option. For starters Defog / Rapid Spin users deny Forretress them. Excadrill is the #1 spinner in OU and it is immune to Toxic Spikes. Needless to say Defog users are also immune to Toxic Spikes (well most, aside from lolShiftry Arceus and Mew). Mega Venusaur, which is fairly popular, also absorbs Toxic Spikes.

Hidden Power Ice may be run to hit Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite. However, 164 Special Attack EVs are needed to 2HKO offensive Garchomp after Stealth Rock.

With this many... I would just slam it to OO. Gyro Ball will usually handle these guys decently.

 

[AOPSUser]

Okay, changes implemented. Although I was wondering, is Sturdy really the best option for Forretress? I have never had Sturdy actually help me yet on Forretress, and with Overcoat's buff, would it be better to run that instead?

 

[Colonel M]

Sturdy can help in really sketchy emergencies. You can 2HKO Mega Zard X with EQ for example. I think you can slash Overcoat in but dropping Sturdy is usually a bad idea.

 

[Fuzznip]

Sturdy was nice for Custap leads, but that no longer exists. I'd actually think Overcoat has more utility because, looking at the bigger picture, Forretress will more often than not be at less than full health over the course of a match. I mean, it's going to be switching into hazards to remove them. Overcoat at least wrecks Smeargle leads and stuff... I would slash it probably, maybe even the first slash.

 

[AOPSUser]

^Yeah, I was thinking that too. Overcoat is the primary slash now. also fuck smeargle

 

[CyclicCompound]

I'm not QC, but Forretress is one of my favorite competitive mons, so I feel obliged to bring this up.

I'm of the opinion that Protect should be slashed somewhere. When I use Forretress, I generally use Protect over Gyro Ball, but this is almost always with stall teams on which I don't want to carry an 8 PP move that's not exactly guaranteed to be strong (I'm not saying Gyro Ball is bad, but there are certain environments in which there are better options). The utility of Protect is tremendous. Against commonly choiced foes like Genesect, Talonflame, Rotom-W/H, and Latios, it's extremely beneficial to defensive teams if they can scout the opponent's next move and send in an appropriate counter. In addition, Pokemon such as Greninja, Deoxys-S, and Espeon often carry Fire-type coverage moves for the sake of threatening foes like Forretress. Protect lets you easily scout these moves and make the right decision. Finally, Forretress, like Heatran, is a Pokemon blessed with great defensive stats and typing while cursed with a pitiful lack of recovery options. Although Forretress is usually viewed as a utilitymon, adding Protect gives it some degree of walling capability against weaker foes, which buys a ton of time to set up or rapid spin or whatever else it is that Forretress is interested in doing. On a defensive team, there's a decent chance that whatever's switching in will also be afflicted by some sort of status condition, in which case Protect is fantastic to have on board as well.

Again, if you do mention Protect, make sure you're highlighting that it's mostly of use for defensive teams that want to keep Forretress healthy over the course of a match and want to make it ridiculously easy to scout and eventually wall many of the threats that love to switch into Forretress.

One last thing: I would say one of Forretress's main niches over other Rapid Spin users, and defensive Pokemon in general, is the fact that it gets access to Volt Switch. Very, very few Pokemon as defensive as Forretress have the capability to utilize such momentum-gaining moves, which defensive teams often tend to struggle to obtain. Forretress has been a solid mainstay of many of my defensive teams in the past largely for this reason (along with the fact that it learns Rapid Spin). I would highlight this niche in the overview, as it adds tremendously to Forretress's appeal.

 

[AOPSUser]

Protect. It sounds interesting. However, it really takes away from Forretress's utility, since using it over Volt Switch means you can't pivot, and using it over Gyro Ball means you can't do damage. In addition, after the first time, it really gets predictable, and is forced out over the course of the match by many mons regardless, such as Heatran, Aegislash, and Jellicent. I mentioned Protect in details for now, but if QC thinks it's worth a slash, I'll slash it in.

Also, I'm starting to think that Earthquake is really niche on Forretress. Sure it lures in Magnezone, Aegislash, and Heatran, but it doesn't actually OHKO any of them without Attack investment, and 5HKOes bulky Aegislash uninvested (lol). A lot of Aegislash users are using specially based variants now too, and Forretress cannot take any Shadow Balls. So I'm moving Earthquake into details as well, unless QC has any objections.

 

[GamingShawn]

I think that Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and Rocky Helmet should get a mention in either Checks and Counters or in Usage Tips. If Forretress is at a low enough amount of health where it will die to the damage inflicted from any of the aforementioned abilities/item, then the things that Rapid Spin spin away will remain.

 

[AOPSUser]

^ Yeah, that's really important to keep in mind. I remember back in BW2 when opposing Forretress tried to Spin multiple times on my Ferrothorn. It's situational but against Ferrothorn it's important. I put it in Usage Tips.

Anyways, awaiting QC.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I used this a lot that generation, and while there have been a lot of shifts, I see no reason as to why Pain Split shouldn't be an OO option, it allows Forretress to beat out opposing Ferrothorns and Skarmory, PP stalling them.

Also Toxic somewhere, Forretress can be an emergency stop and Toxic can cripple a lot of incoming Pokemon as well as ruining Mamoswine edit: Landorus-T.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Also Toxic somewhere, Forretress can be an emergency stop and Toxic can cripple a lot of incoming Pokemon as well as ruining Mamoswine.

While I won't dispute that Toxic is generally good for defensive Pokemon, do keep in mind that some of Forry's most common switch-ins, including but not limited to Heatran, Gengar, and Aegislash, are fully immune to Toxic's effects. While it IS the best way for Forretress to deal with Jellicent (arguably the best spinblocker vs. Forretress), Jellicent is uncommon enough that I think it warrants an OO mention at most.

Also, not really sure why you mentioned Mamoswine since it has a tough time getting through Forry's titanic defense stat, but Gyro Ball beats it far more reliably than Toxic:

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (85 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 204-240 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[liz7]

A Relaxed nature Forestress can actually deal a dent against the most common spinblockers with Payback so it actually worth a mention in your set.

4 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

A Relaxed nature Forestress can actually deal a dent against the most common spinblockers with Payback so it actually worth a mention in your set.

4 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Payback only does 50 damage if they are switching in (unless they changed this in XY, again), so chop all those damages literally in half as the next turn Jellicent and Trevenant burn you.

It could be a niche option against Aegislash, as it does 2HKO I guess, that's about it tough.

 

[icy780]

What about possible set ups that use Stealth Rock and Spikes? This is completely viable. If you can take a couple hits you can guarantee significant damage on any switch in with both hazards up.

 

[AOPSUser]

Alright...

Toxic: You use it for Jellicent, Gourgeist, and Trevenant. Trevenant has Lum+Harvest+Rest or Natural Cure, so it doesn't care about your Toxic more often than not. Jellicent still mauls you with Scald, and you can Volt Switch out if you predict it coming in, which is actually probably the better option. Gourgeist I'll concede, but it too has Fire Blast. It's not really enough to warrant a slash though, since Forretress needs its other moves so much. I'll put it in details for now.

Payback: Aegislash mauls you with either King's Shield or Shadow Ball. Gourgeist doesn't care about it. It hits nothing else. No.

Double hazards: Now this is actually interesting. I have run this in the past, a lot, with some success. However, in most of my games Forretress was a Spinning pivot, it would Spin, maybe set up one layer of hazards, and Volt Switch out. In particular, double hazards constricts your movepool, forcing you to ditch either Gyro Ball or Volt Switch. Without Volt Switch you cannot pivot or scout, and Volt Switch can provide a free switch to a teammate easily. Without Gyro Ball you are completely helpless in the face of opposing attackers, as you cannot damage them at all. They will eventually chip you to death unless you have Wish support. I'll put it into details or OO for now.

This is still awaiting QC checks.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I don't actually see reason to use Forretress just now. Its ridiculously easy to spinblock, has no offensive presence and is easy to wear down. No offensive team is going to use it when Excadrill exists and balanced or stall teams can control hazards much more effectively with Mandibuzz, Skarmory or Scizor who can heal themselves and arent complete set up fodder for lots of huge threats. Really it has been hurt too much by the new gen and your analysis as it stands doesn't give any strong reason for someone to want it on their team when it brings such huge drawbacks. The times that I've faced it, if they haven't clicked volt switch they've put themselves in a losing situation due to Aegislash, Mega Luke, Genesect or whatever forcing one of Forretress' team mates to take on a big hit/ boosted sweeper.

 

[Jukain]

ok since forry doesn't have any other abilities you don't need to list two. explain their uses briefly in set details. they're both good, so don't say any is necessarily superior. this is the compromise we came up with because there are people who really like overcoat (like fuzznip) and who really like sturdy (like smb).

 

[silfan]

I don't actually see reason to use Forretress just now. Its ridiculously easy to spinblock, has no offensive presence and is easy to wear down. No offensive team is going to use it when Excadrill exists and balanced or stall teams can control hazards much more effectively with Mandibuzz, Skarmory or Scizor who can heal themselves and arent complete set up fodder for lots of huge threats. Really it has been hurt too much by the new gen and your analysis as it stands doesn't give any strong reason for someone to want it on their team when it brings such huge drawbacks. The times that I've faced it, if they haven't clicked volt switch they've put themselves in a losing situation due to Aegislash, Mega Luke, Genesect or whatever forcing one of Forretress' team mates to take on a big hit/ boosted sweeper.

I disagree with this.
Forretress is used as a Rapid Spin, SR and defensive pivot all at the same time.
The meta as of now really favors momentum gaining with Volt Switch or U-turn.
Forretress is probably one of only few available slow defensive Volt-Switch user and can let your sweeper switch in to setup without taking prior damage.
Some hazard removers can also lay entry hazard, but none of them can fulfill Forretress niche as defensive pivot and thus, why IMO Forretress deserves an OU analysis.

Regarding what you said about Aegislash, Mlucario, Genesect or whatever, prediction is always required in pokemon. Saying making wrong prediction of not using a certain move can result in you taking big hit applies to many pokemon.

 

[AOPSUser]

I don't actually see reason to use Forretress just now. Its ridiculously easy to spinblock, has no offensive presence and is easy to wear down. No offensive team is going to use it when Excadrill exists and balanced or stall teams can control hazards much more effectively with Mandibuzz, Skarmory or Scizor who can heal themselves and arent complete set up fodder for lots of huge threats. Really it has been hurt too much by the new gen and your analysis as it stands doesn't give any strong reason for someone to want it on their team when it brings such huge drawbacks. The times that I've faced it, if they haven't clicked volt switch they've put themselves in a losing situation due to Aegislash, Mega Luke, Genesect or whatever forcing one of Forretress' team mates to take on a big hit/ boosted sweeper.

Yes, Forretress isn't the best Spinner. It's not the best hazard setter. It's not the best slow Volt Switch user. But it's the only Pokemon that can do all three, and that is reason enough for it to be used. That and the fact that Volt Switch lets it give dangerous sweepers like Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, Dragonite, and Genesect a free switchin (unless the opponent blocks it with a Ground-type), because it has the bulk to take a few hits.

ok since forry doesn't have any other abilities you don't need to list two. explain their uses briefly in set details. they're both good, so don't say any is necessarily superior. this is the compromise we came up with because there are people who really like overcoat (like fuzznip) and who really like sturdy (like smb).

Done.

 

[Enrique]

Why is a full investment in physical bulk prefered over a specially defensive set, even though forretress' base defense is already 140? I can only imagine this is because physical attackers are way more common after the special attacks nerfs, but can anyone elaborate please?

Not sure if this is the correct place to ask this, but then again having an explanation about why the full physical investment is on the main set could be worth adding for newer players like myself which might not find this stuff as obvious as the veterans do.

 

[Sturdynips]

Why is a full investment in physical bulk prefered over a specially defensive set, even though forretress' base defense is already 140? I can only imagine this is because physical attackers are way more common after the special attacks nerfs, but can anyone elaborate please?

Not sure if this is the correct place to ask this, but then again having an explanation about why the full physical investment is on the main set could be worth adding for newer players like myself which might not find this stuff as obvious as the veterans do.

Forretress's special bulk is pretty average, and even with full investment it often cannot reliably take special attacks. In turn, without full physical investment it struggles to stop many strong physical attackers. It is generally better to excel at one role than be mediocre at two, if that makes sense.

 

[Enrique]

Forretress's special bulk is pretty average, and even with full investment it often cannot reliably take special attacks. In turn, without full physical investment it struggles to stop many strong physical attackers. It is generally better to excel at one role than be mediocre at two, if that makes sense.

Yeah that does make a lot of sense, thank you for the response. I was just wondering why only forretress went for the full physical investement when other similar walls like ferrothorn went for a more specially denfensive set, then again ferrothorn has good base SpD of his own and could work as a mixed wall so your comment does look really valid :^)

 

[Super Mario Bro]

REJECTED 1/3

 

[Jukain]

the bug sux

QC REJECTED 2/3