Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

[Lucchini]

Eviolite Kadabra vs. Alakazam defence comparison vs. Rock Slide Machoke (Korrina's Machoke but Rock Tomb is not an option for some reason):

0+ Atk Machoke Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Kadabra: 32-38 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Machoke Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 36-43 (51.4 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(3 level gap, maximum IVs)

The point I was making is that Kadabra can compensate for its inferior defensive bases by holding the Eviolite. Now let's have a look at the special side of the bulk:

0 SpA Emolga Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 28-34 (34.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Emolga Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Kadabra: 25-30 (34.2 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(5 level gap, maximum IVs)

As you said, Kadabra will get more out of Eviolite by having better defensive IVs and racking up EVs in def / sp. def. So Kadabra can match Zam in offence while losing slightly in speed and not too significantly in special attack (as Zam can equip items boosting attack without losing to Eviolite Kadabra in defences).

With regards to learning Calm Mind naturally, this happens at L42 and Olympia's lowest-levelled Pokemon is at L44. Abra is in the Slow exp group, so it's very likely that L42 is not reached prior to this battle, and almost guaranteed for any team with more than 4 mons (and I suspect for some 4-mon teams as well). Even should you set up against Olympia (there's a slight chance this will take place), your coverage moves are Charge Beam and Grass Knot. Light Screen from Sigilyph, Air Slash crits while you set up and being Yawned by Slowking all seem like possible ways how to not win here. I think it could be best to just try to take down the first two with SE coverage moves and fight Meowstic and whoever Kadabra/Zam failed to KO with the rest of your team that's able to fight here - seems more efficient than a questionable setup that does require a high level to be possible.

Have a look at the current tier list - Machamp and Machoke are both in C even though their gap in attack is equal to 30. Kadabra doesn't lose to Zam in special attack nearly as much and you could always give it the same offensive boosters as Kazam if you just want a glass cannon. Sure enough, Zam should be just above Kadabra in whichever tier they turn out to be (C or B), but the difference just doesn't warrant a tier difference. You say the 15 base speed difference is so crucial for outspeeding, like, Hawlucha, but given certain levels/IVs/EVs, both will be outsped by Hawlucha anyway, and the insignificant differences in bases may or may not affect in how many hits you die and how many you need to KO back.

tl;dr this is not Steelix, Accelgor or Escavalier - not even GSC Gengar. Same tier (B / C, not sure), with Alakazam just above Kadabra.

Oh, and Scatterbug should be moved from A/B limbo to B/C limbo by now. The accolades it got was before we focused on playing at lower levels w/o Eviolite and since then the criticism of the mon has been pretty much the only kind of evaluation it got, with several nominations for C tier. I don't think it's C at all (though Scatterbug vs. Zangoose or Snorlax is a valid question worth arguing over), but it's not an A-mon even in one's best dreams.

 

[Raikaria]

Kadabra vs Alakazam is a massive difference; however.

Kadabra is 40HP; 35 Atk; 30 Def; 120 Sp.Atk; 70 Sp.Def and 105 Speed

Alakazam is 55 HP; 50 Atk; 45 Def; 135 Sp.Atk; 95 Sp.Def and 120 Speed.

40/30/70 defenses are a massive amount less than 55/45/95. And you are losing 15 BP in Sp.Atk and a boosting item if you run Evolite Kadabra; which is a LOT of power. Alakazam takes hits a lot better than Non-Evolite Kadabra; and hits a lot harder than any Kadabra. Mind Plate Alakazam is going to be getting a lot more OHKO's than Evolite Kadabra.

Not to mention you lose 15 base speed. Kadabra is at the mercy of EV's and levels against things such as Meowstic [Base 104 Speed]; while Alakazam is going to outspeed it. Other notable benchmarks are Delphox [104]; Hawlucha [118]; Starmie [115]; Floatzel [115]; Scolipede [112; but I forgot if anyone in-game uses this]; Gengar [110]; Jumpluff [110]; Espeon [110]; Heliolisk [109] and Pyroar [106]. Yes; you can be screwed by IV's or nature; but the chance is a lot greater that you will outspeed than if you were with Kadabra.

Bolded are pokemon that matter used in boss battles.

In addittion; it is a lot easier for Alakazam to be sure to outspeed Base 100's when underleveled than Kadabra. This includes things like Charizard; Mega Gardevoir; and the Legends.

And this is before you consider that you would have to overlevel/have less Speed EV's to outspeed things above Base 120; such as Talonflame; Noivern and Greninja; which Kadabra would need to be severely overleveled to outspeed ever.

Also Espeon is slightly weaker and slower than Alakazam. It *does* learn Psychic earlier; however; so I guess they would both be A.

As we brought up Espeon; I also feel like pointing out Gardevoir is B. Alakazam is MUCH better than Gardevoir; and is certainly not the same tier. If Alakazam ends up B then Gardevoir needs to go down to C because it is clearly much; much worse for in-game than Alakazam.

Suggesting Alakazam is potentially C is an outright joke when Gardevoir is B. Alakazam is much better in-game than things like Pamcham; Escaviler, Furfrou and Hairyama; and is clearly significantly better in-game than Gardevoir.


I really think Kadabra should be 1 tier below Alakazam. It is a lot worse; and Alakazam I am fairly sure is A material; since it outspeeds and OHKO's a lot of the game and comes absurdly early.

I think it's something like Alakazam/Espeon - A; Kadabra/Gardevoir - B.

Agreed on Scatterbug moving down however.

Also Swirlix w/o Trade and Spritzee w/o Trade should really be F. They are worse unevolved than Pumpkaboo and Phantump who can at least mess with types as a supporting job.

 

[Tomy]

Vileplume: C-tier

Availability: Route 6. The Leaf Stone is on route 8.

Available early: you can have Oddish right after the first gym, getting Gloom at level 21. It doesn't learn anything important by level-up until level 50, so you can use your Leaf Stone without problem.

Stats: 75 HP / 80 Atk / 85 Def / 110 SpA / 90 SpDef / 50 Spd

Vileplume has a good Sp.Atk, a surprisingly good mixed bulk and...pathetic Speed.

Typing: Plant/Poison, you know the deal. Poison had a major buff this gen, resisting Fairy and dealing SE to it.

Movepool: Venoshock is at the same route as Oddish, so having a STAB 65BP, with Oddish's pretty sweet Sp.Atk (75), is actually impressive. About the Plant STAB, Oddish starts with Absorb, and learns Mega Drain at level 21 (right before the evolution, so). Then, Vileplume will have Grass Knot after Ramos and Dazzling Gleam after Valerie. Her two strongest STAB, Sludge Bomb and Petal Dance, are available before Wulfric. Support-wise, Oddish learns the 3 powders by level-up.
Sunny Day is actually a good option to boost Speed as Vileplume has Chlorophyll.
Vileplume has actually a decent Attack and can learn Swords Dance, but her movepool is awful on the physical side.

Major Battles:
Grant: OK, but not awesome. Amaura's Body Slam wasn't that threatening, but don't expect Vileplume taking hits forever.
Korrina: Hawlucha 3HKO Vileplume with Flying Press (!!), while Venoshock 2HKO Hawlucha. Machoke hasn't any coverage moves vs Plant-types, and Mienfoo is frail. Overall, not that bad as it seemed to be, but don't expect a sweep.
Ramos: Excluding Jumpluff's Acrobatics, Vileplume is pretty good here.
Clemont: Emolga is frail but has Aerial Ace, and Magneton is a giant no-go. However, it can take Heliolisk.
Valerie: Mawile a Steel-type (so don't ev en think about sending Vileplume unless you expect beating Mawile with Grass Knot), and Mr.Mime has a SE STAB Psychic (However, Vileplume isn't 3HKO'd by it when Venoshock 2HKO back). Sylveon is a favorable match-up, though.
Olympia: outspeeeds and 2HKO Slowking with Grass Knot. The others are riskier.
Wulfric: You can try to take Abomasnow with Sludge Bomb, the others are a giant NO.

Team Flare: Good against Dark-Types not named Hondour/Houndoom (especially after Dazzling Gleam).

Elite 4: Vileplume is really good against Siebold: she can setup Sunny Day and sweep his entire team bar Gyarados. Against Drasna, Vileplume can handle Druddigon and Altaria with Dazzling Gleam, but Dragalge is quite bulky and Noivern slaughters her. Don't think about sending her vs Wikstrom. Vileplume actually outspeeds Torkoal and 2HKO it with Sludge Bomb while it can't OHKO back, but she's burned alive by Malva's team otherwise. Diantha isn't kind to her either.

Additional Comments: Vileplume was bittersweet. She is available pretty early and slaughters pretty everything with Venoshock. Then, her Speed and lack of powerful STAB start to annoy mid-game. End-game, she gets new tools like Petal Dance, Sludge Bomb and Dazzling Gleam, but her Speed becomes completely non-salvageable (Sunny Day is a noticeable help, though).

About Kadabra and Alakazam...Well, Alakazam at level 16 is impressive. I haven't used it but A-tier doesn't seem that unlikely.

 

[Lucchini]

The difference is 15 in each stat. Subtract the same number from, say, Lucario or Charizard, and then tell me if they would drop to A tier or below (I've heard the mention of whole two tiers worth of difference between Alakazam and Kadabra). They'd certainly get worse, but I'd say they'd remain in the same tier for the other handy qualities they possess.

Playing with a level disadvantage, I've had Mega Aerodactyl with very high speed IVs fail to outspeed some mons before. What should this say about Alakazam's 120 speed? Zam is more likely to be outsped by those Pokemon with slightly lower speed base that you cited (ones that matter) than you credit it for, and if it's outsped it's very likely to face the same dangers that Kadabra does (for example, being KO'd in a certain number of hits and taking the number of hits to KO in turn).

Some of the people arguing with me about this right now have previously made the (overused, often misused imho) argument that if something is worse than another Pokemon, then it doesn't mean they should be in a tier below. Really, this is precisely the one instance where such an argument makes sense because Kadabra and Alakazam are largely functionally interchangeable. Notice the 'largely' though - everything you say I can to some extent acknowledge, such as that higher attack will help Alakazam avoid some counters by 2HKOing when Kadabra 3HKOs, or by outspeeding when Kadabra fails to - but these occurrences are by no means regular as 105 base speed is still a very high speed base (people here argue how good 60ish-80ish speed is all the time) and 120 base special attack is really damn high.

Anyway, I'm interested in what tiering you would offer for Graveler/Golem and Machoke/Machamp. Machoke, in particular, misses a lot of KOs Machamp grabs with +30 base attack. Seems like a big deal when you go to such lengths to prove +15 sp. atk. is enough to warrant a two/(later) one tier gap, and both forms of Machop are in C tier at the moment.

Not mentioning Haunter because the lack of mega-evo really hurts there, and could indeed account for 2 tiers (A vs C?), because that's how big the difference becomes.

As we brought up Espeon; I also feel like pointing out Gardevoir is B. Alakazam is MUCH better than Gardevoir; and is certainly not the same tier. If Alakazam ends up B then Gardevoir needs to go down to C because it is clearly much; much worse for in-game than Alakazam.

Suggesting Alakazam is potentially C is an outright joke when Gardevoir is B. Alakazam is much better in-game than things like Pamcham; Escaviler, Furfrou and Hairyama; and is clearly significantly better in-game than Gardevoir.


I really think Kadabra should be 1 tier below Alakazam. It is a lot worse; and Alakazam I am fairly sure is A material; since it outspeeds and OHKO's a lot of the game and comes absurdly early.

I think it's something like Alakazam/Espeon - A; Kadabra/Gardevoir - B.

While Kadabra needs a few levels to evolve and learn its first offensive move, Espeon needs a lot more time to exist when you get it (otherwise, Eevee is kind of a burden if you opt not to force its evolution immediately). I'm not sure if Espeon is better than Kadabra, and I do think all three (Zam, Espeon, Kadabra) should be in the same tier (B probably) because the differences between them aren't as pronounced.

Alakazam is worse at taking hits than all of the Pokemon you mention. I do think Zam/Kadabra might want to reside in B however, as they're closer to Zangoose than they are to Furfrou.

About Abra vs. Ralts: I disagree here. Better bulk and better typing are Gardevoir's selling point, as are access to Thunderbolt, fairy STAB and better matchups as a result thereof. Ralts's biggest problem is being mediocre (at best) for too many levels and even when it's fully evolved have to rely on 50/60 BP moves until after the fairy gym.

I do think people underestimate Ralts's rut and overestimate Magikarp's (or at least did), since it's much better to not be able to fight for 5 levels than fight very poorly for 20. Still, Gardevoir is a lot more than just a worse Alakazam with things it can do that Kazam cannot. Being punished to slide down to C tier for that disastrous early-midgame seems like a possibility.

If you're comparing psychics, throw in Sigilyph and Mr. Mime into the mix while you're at it. Not any worse than Alakazam/Kadabra IMHO.

 

[Korlashh]

K well I'll leave myself out of the Kadabra/Alakazam subject now. I'm sorry I bothered talking to a wall.

 

[Lucchini]

K well I'll leave myself out of the Kadabra/Alakazam subject now. I'm sorry I bothered talking to a wall.

Sorry to hear that's your exit line when you run out of arguments and choose not respond to any of mine! As I previously said, I accept and acknowledge all arguments used to show Alakazam warranting a higher tier than Kadabra (which essentially boils down to having +15s everywhere), just not their ultimate implication, but provide additional variables. You might have noticed all those other things I've tried to express to back the conclusions that I have made.

 

[Korlashh]

And hey I'm back in

Sorry to hear that's your exit line when you run out of arguments and choose not respond to any of mine!

Just so disturbing to read that. I know I didn't respond to the latest two posts you've made, but I've responded before that. I'm just trying to refrain from gigantic walls of text for the sake of my post being more readable (I'm just talking about my presentation here). I've come up with responses piece by piece, but end up deleting them because I know it will fly over your head.

But anyways:

• If lucario and Charizard lost 15 in each stat, I do think they'd drop down to A, as they would not stomp the game as easily. It's not the easiest to assume though, because there can only be one MEGA-pokemon in each battle right? There could be cases where you're stuck with the regular form with a 75 speed lucario or 85 speed charizard (hypothetically speaking). It's obvious to me that you take that stat drop for granted.
  
• I didn't care to dispute what you said about lv 16 Zam being unimpressing. I still think that's BS, but I can see the difference between the two forms not being great early game.
• You make one decent point about Olympia, but I don't think Alakazam will have any trouble at all reaching 42, even with the slow rate (maybe I'm wrong). If you're one of those people who want to keep every teammate the same level (which I am sometimes too), then I can see it not always being possible. The only real obstacle I see for Alakazam is not having Psychic or shadow Ball. By the way, you are forgetting that Alakazam gets Dazzling Gleam prior to this gym, which is enough power when you have numerous calm minds under your belt. Slowking won't be able to yawn when it gets tripped by a boosted Grass Knot, and the other two can only beat you if they land that crit (which critical hits should not be factored in at all for tiering. It's just bad luck)
• The two calculations don't mean that much to me. I understand that Kadabra is slightly bulkier, but that doesn't change the fact that either will OHKO Machoke and only Alakazam will get the first hit on Emolga (Kadabra may, but it takes a good one). You are over-theorizing, like usual.
  
• I have no idea on tiering for Machoke/champ or Graveler/Golem. Graveler/Golem is honestly only good for setting up stealth rock for E4 battles (and beating Talonflame), and Machoke/Champ are both too slow to warrant a tier difference. Golem may be able to get OHKO's with QuakeEdge because Aggron came up just short on pokes like Pyroar and Noivern, but Golem has 120 base att now and can be found at like lv 57 or so. He may be worth a shot if rock polish can boost its poor raw speed. Graveler will still be deadweight though
  
• Mega-Gengar hasn't been used in a normal run, let's not conclude A tier. 170 spA and 130 spe sounds like overkill
  
• Regarding Espeon, I nominated B-tier because its availability is undesirable. But I am more than certain it fights like an A-tier mon, especially considering it begins at lv20 with Psybeam (aka no drag like other pokemon traditionally raised). IMO it deserves the same tiering as Alakazam and a tier or two above Kadabra.
• Espeon's speed is also what makes me advocate Alakazam's 120 speed. My Espeon got outsped by Pyroar, which meant I couldn't KO anything else in that entire battle. If Alakazam was in, it could have set up calm mind (with potions, however) and swept until Talonflame switched in. Alakazam can also potentially get the jump on the likes of Starmie (and set up to OHKO Gyarados as well) and Hawlucha as well. Kadabra will likely not be able to set up on anything except for maybe Dragalge. I'm also certain it'll KO less than Espeon as well.
• I'm not ready to fully compare Kadabra/Alakazam to others like Sigilyph, Mr. Mime, or Gardevoir, but all I can currently tell you is that they are all slower (Gardevoir especially), meaning they'll sometimes have to take a hit.

"but these occurrences are by no means regular as 105 base speed is still a very high speed base (people here argue how good 60ish-80ish speed is all the time) and 120 base special attack is really damn high."

Yeah, so you think those are great stats, which I think so too. Apparently so strong that it's proven faster and stronger than Delphox! I guess Kadabra's final evo is looking pretty good now huh?

 

[Raikaria]

The difference is with Alakazam and Gardevoir that:

Gardevoir is a lot slower so will be taking more hits; therefor must be healed more often
You only need to baby Abra to Lv 16. You must baby Ralts to Lv 30 before it becomes useful.
Gardevoir does not hit as hard. Taking hits is largely irrelevant when you are outspeeding and OHKO'ing the majority of the game
Gardevoir cannot make use of it's Fairy-type until after the 6th Gym anyway; at which point Alakazam also gets Dazzling Gleam. [Albeit slightly weaker due to a lack of STAB. Although Alakazam's slightly higher Sp.Atk makes up for it slightly Gardevoir is better at using Dazzling Gleam]

Gardevoir is bulkier but Alakazam shouldn't be getting hit. Alakazam has a stronger everything except Electric attack and Gleam [Lv 85 Moonblast is irrelevant]; and hits first against a lot more things that Gardevoir's Base 80 speed will be outspeeding.

And yes; Base 85 Speed Charizard would not be S rank. [In fact I think Charizard should not be S rank anyway; at least Charizard Y because of the Mega Evolution Animation; then the Drought Animation. Charizard itself is unimpressive and is certainly not S without Mega-Evolution; and Charmander/Charmeleon is outright bad except Dragon Rage. I can accept Charizard X as S now; however since you do not have to sit through 2 animations every time; just one.]

If you shaved 15 off every base stat of any pokemon it would be a massive difference. Hell; look at Phione v Manaphy. 20 less on every base stat for Phione. Phione doesn't even find a place in NU; while Manaphy was Uber. 15 off every base stat isn't far off 20 off every base stat that Manaphy/Phione has. Look at impact the stat drop has on Manaphy/Phione and then claim Kadabra/Alakazam is not a large difference.

As for the talk about 2 tiers separating them; I suggested if you thought Kadabra was C rank based on your useage of Kadabra; then I would be inclined to agree; because I had trade access so used Alakazam. However; I firmly am of the opinion that Alakazam is A-rank for in-game purposes [And better than Gardevoir]

 

[Korlashh]

The difference is with Alakazam and Gardevoir that:

Gardevoir is a lot slower so will be taking more hits; therefor must be healed more often
You only need to baby Abra to Lv 16. You must baby Ralts to Lv 30 before it becomes useful.
Gardevoir does not hit as hard. Taking hits is largely irrelevant when you are outspeeding and OHKO'ing the majority of the game
Gardevoir cannot make use of it's Fairy-type until after the 6th Gym anyway; at which point Alakazam also gets Dazzling Gleam. [Albeit slightly weaker due to a lack of STAB. Although Alakazam's slightly higher Sp.Atk makes up for it slightly Gardevoir is better at using Dazzling Gleam]

Gardevoir is bulkier but Alakazam shouldn't be getting hit. Alakazam has a stronger everything except Electric attack and Gleam [Lv 85 Moonblast is irrelevant]; and hits first against a lot more things that Gardevoir's Base 80 speed will be outspeeding.

I think it's way too hard to compare these two effectively as far as tiering. They both have their major ups and downs.

Gardevoir's Dazzling Gleam is much stronger than Alakazam's. While it doesn't matter against Scrafties or liepards, the secondary fairy typing is useful for matching up against houndoom and dragons (aside from dragalge).

Two other useful treats are Calm mind at 33 and Psychic at 40. Great for setting up at the electric gym and psychic gym (maybe fairy, idk). But yeah, 80 speed is far from ideal. Babying ralts and kirlia isn't great either.

 

[cinderkitteh]

Clauncher: - D Tier (X)
Availability: X Exclusive. Can be found by fishing with Good Rod in Ambrette Town, Route 8, and Cyllage City. Easily hooked by rod.
Stats: Clauncher has lackluster stats, but when it evolves it gets a fantastic base 120 Special Attack to use. Its evolution also has decent Defenses. Its speed, however, is slow at less than base 60.
Typing: Water typing is great for team Flare and it only has two weaknesses in Electric and Grass.
Movepool: Amazing movepool by level up. Clawitzer gets Water Pulse, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, and Dragon Pulse to use with its ability powering them up further. Also learns Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, and Flash Cannon by Tm. Great Special movepool with the SpA to use it.
Major Battles: Clauncher/Clawitzer's flaws are very apparent here. It comes after the 3rd gym, so the first two gyms it will be facing destroy it since they are Grass and Electric. It does okay with the last three gyms, especially after evolving. The rival battles are handled okay, as is Team Flare, but it is dead weight for a large portion of midgame because it is useless in the midgame's major battles. Elite Four, Champion, and AZ are manageable with Clawitzer's amazing coverage.
Additional Comments: LATE evolution at level 37 and it is in the slow experience group. Despite its amazing movepool and SpA, I found its performance to be pretty bad, so it should be a C or D tiered mon.

 

[Its_A_Random]

If you shaved 15 off every base stat of any pokemon it would be a massive difference. Hell; look at Phione v Manaphy. 20 less on every base stat for Phione. Phione doesn't even find a place in NU; while Manaphy was Uber. 15 off every base stat isn't far off 20 off every base stat that Manaphy/Phione has. Look at impact the stat drop has on Manaphy/Phione and then claim Kadabra/Alakazam is not a large difference.

What happens in competitive has zero effect on what happens in-game. In a competitive world, every base stat point, every EV, & every IV counts for a lot, & can make or break a Pokémon in the competitive world. When it comes to in-game, because of the whole random EV gaining, alongside inconsistent IV's & natures, base stats do not count for as much as they do in the competitive world. Even then, stats are not the only factor that makes or breaks a Pokémon in the competitive world, movepool, typing, & stats can have an impact as well. Even if Manaphy had Phione's stats, it could still have the potential to do something as a lower tier Tail Glow sweeper.

The point is that in-game & competitive are two different worlds, & to compare them in such a way as to say Alakazam should be tiered higher than Kadabra in-game because Manaphy is tiered higher than Phione in competitive is a terrible, irrelevant argument. If you tried to do multiple runs with the same Pokémon, you will often find that it will never usually perform the same way every single time, because the nature will usually be different, the EV's gained will usually be different, & the IV's will usually be different. One run with Charizard Y you could manage to outspeed & OHKO Clemont's Heliolisk, the next, you could either be outsped or OHKOed at the same level, or Heliolisk could survive & possibly OHKO. This inconsistency can mean a lot in an in-game run, & hence, the reason why most mons that have a no trade & a trade entry will usually be merged in the end.

Yes a higher Speed stat means you can outspeed more foes on average, yes, but while base stats are one of the contributing factors for a Pokémon's tiering, it is not the sole factor, nor does it mean that a Pokémon with higher base stats will be tiered higher than the other.

Also Swirlix & Spritzee are fine where they are. They are okay in the early game, & have some utility in the early gyms, but then drop off where you simply trade it out.

Anyhow, I suppose I have been slacking on this, so I guess I need to update the tiers!!!

Abra (w/ Trade): N/A -> B-Tier
Abra (w/o Trade): N/A -> B-Tier
Amaura: N/A -> D-Tier
Carbink: N/A -> Limbo (D/E-Tier)
Clamperl: N/A -> F-Tier
Corsola: N/A -> F-Tier
Cryogonal: N/A -> D-Tier
Emolga: N/A -> Limbo (C/D-Tier)
Hoppip: N/A -> E-Tier
Mime Jr.: N/A -> B-Tier
Scatterbug: Limbo (A/B-Tier) -> B-Tier
Shuckle: N/A -> F-Tier

Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.

The proposed tiering mons go into their proposed tiers bar Emolga who gets bumped up to Limbo between B & C. Amaura finally gets thrown into D-Tier as a near universal agreement, while it was agreed that Scatterbug move down, so into B it goes. Both Abra entries are going into B due to early availability, great special sweeping capabilities, but frailty & a bit of an early-game rut hurts it. Mime Jr. goes into B-Tier being of a similar build to Alakazam albeit specially bulky instead of specially offensive, a useful secondary typing, & generally good matchups. I can expand on my decisions if needed.

Not much else to say, carry on as normal. I want the limbo mons to be discussed as usual though. Other than that, keep up the good work folks.

Entries Tiered: 110

Also The Sweepz, I will respond to you later; I have not forgotten about you.

 

[Afti]

If you're tiering trade evolutions separately where relevant, wouldn't Clamperl's evolutions warrant different tiering?

I mean, Gorebyss and Huntail aren't good by any stretch of the imagination, but they're durable-ish and offer some offensive presence; not really F-tier material. Catching a Clamperl, going a bit north to get the evolution item, and trade-evolving it gets you a very different Pokémon. Still a pretty lousy one, but one that's capable of at least somewhat pulling its own weight in a way that the the other F-tier Pokémon can't. I'm not sure why you'd use Gorebyss over Azumarill or Greninja or Blastoise or Starmie or anything else on the long list of better Water-types, but 114 SpA Surf and the ability to tank physical hits decently put it a cut above the rest of F-tier; I could definitely see it in E, maybe D. Huntail is worse than its already-bad sibling, but it's still much more usable than the absolute jokes that inhabit F-tier.

If it was a longer detour, it'd be different - but as is, you catch Clamperl on the same route where you find the items in question, so it's not going to get any more behind than it already is.

 

[DHR-107]

If you're tiering trade evolutions separately where relevant, wouldn't Clamperl's evolutions warrant different tiering?

If it was a longer detour, it'd be different - but as is, you catch Clamperl on the same route where you find the items in question, so it's not going to get any more behind than it already is.

But the problem is Clamperl is likely better with the items attached, especially the deepseatooth. That *doubles* its Special Attack which means it significantly out damages either Gorebyss or Huntail. Albeit its a lot squishier. Neither are great for in game, and I was under the impresion you needed a Good Rod for Clamperl? That means you have to back track significantly to get it AND it's going to be way under the level of your team. Thats probably why IAR has lumped it down the bottom regardless of its actual usability.

 

[Afti]

Good Rod is in Coumarine. Not really that long a backtrack, and Clamperl comes at level 25, which isn't that underleveled for that point.

Deepseatooth Clamperl can't take a hit, and it won't outrun anything; Gorebyss can tank physical hits decently and might outrun something one day. Well, it might outrun a Rhydon or something, anyway.

I mean, it's pretty dire either way; I'm just not convinced that it's comparable to Luvdisc/Smeargle/Wobbuffet/etc., all of which are out and out unusable.

To be honest, I'm just arguing this out of pedantry; realistically, it doesn't matter whether Gorebyss/Huntail are F or E tier, nobody in their right mind would touch them either way. But they're bad in the same sense that something like Gligar is bad, as opposed to Shuckle. It's an incredibly suboptimal choice that requires way too much investment to pull its weight, but it's not out and out impossible to work with.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Huntail & Gorebyss are being tiered separately to Clamperl. Even with one of the Deep Sea items, Clamperl is going to be too slow & too fragile or weak to actually be of major use. I did consider the prospect of the Deep Sea items for Clamperl without evolution, but ultimately decided that it was not really going to help its cause at all.

 

[lucariomaster2]

Alright, I've never contributed to in-game tiering before, but I'll do my best.

Flabebe: B-tier
Availability: Is commonly found in the flowers on Route 4 (Directly before Lumiose City first visit) and Route 7 (Has the Day Care and Battle Chateau). Evolves into Floette at a reasonable level 19, but it will require some babying. The Shiny Stone to evolve it into Florges is on Route 12, between Shalour City and Coumarine City.
Stats: The Flabebe line has excellent Sp. Def, as well as workable Sp. Atk. The Eviolite is obtained in Shalour City, which will make Floette's defensive stats much better if you're holding off on evolution. However, its Speed is somewhat lackluster, sitting at 42 for Flabebe, 52 for Floette, and 75 for Florges. Furthermore, it will not take physical hits well, as Florges's Defense is only 68.
Typing: The pure Fairy typing is a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, it will do well against Team Flare's Fighting and Dark-types, but it won't do well against their Poison-types. Outside of Team Flare, though, Poison and Steel-types are rare. It also doesn't get STAB on the many, many Grass attacks that it learns, which is quite a letdown.
Movepool: Not terrible, but not great either. I'll cover offensive moves and support moves separately.
Attacking moves: The main downfall of using Flabebe/Floette/Florges is that your main attack will be Fairy Wind for a large portion of the game. At level 25, it gets Magical Leaf, which is the next Special attack it gets. Until then, you have Vine Whip and Razor Leaf, but they're physical, and Flabebe's SpA is roughly twice its Attack. You get Petal Blizzard at level 33, but it's Physical. The next attack of note is Moonblast, which is obtained at level 46 as a Floette, and by going to the move relearner as Florges. If you can't wait that long, Dazzling Gleam is obtained after beating the Fairy gym, which is twice as strong as Fairy Wind. Finally, Floette gets Petal Dance at level 51, which is excellent if you're using Shift mode, but not so great if you're using Set mode. In terms of TMs, the most notable one is Psychic, although it comes rather late at Pokemon Village.
Support moves: You have many, many supporting moves to chose from. Wish is obtained at level 20, which is excellent considering Florges's bulk. You get Grassy Terrain and Misty Terrain, but I personally wouldn't bother with them because you can just use healing items in-game. Same with Aromatherapy, although it's good if you're doing a no-item run. It gets Calm Mind by TM which is very nice (although you don't get it until Gym 7), as well as Substitute, Double Team, Nature Power, Attract, Safeguard, and Protect (which works well with Wish).
Major battles:
Viola: Not obtainable.
Grant: If you have Magical Leaf, it works well against Amaura. Fairy Wind deals SE damage against Tyrunt, but Floette doesn't enjoy Rock Tombs to the face.
Korrina (Gym Battle): Deals SE damage, though Fairy Wind isn't very strong, and they can hit back hard.
Ramos: Doesn't do especially well here. Keep away from Weepinbell.
Clemont: Does well against Emolga and Heliolisk, but keep away from Magneton.
Valerie: Can wall Mr. Mime and Sylveon. Mawile will present trouble.
Olympia: Walls. Can hit Slowking with SE Magical Leaf/Petal Dance, and does okay against the other two mons.
Wulfric: A bit of a mixed bag here. Cryogonal walls it, but can't do much back. Avalugg can hit it hard, but gets hit hard itself. Abomasnow is a pretty neutral matchup.
Florges is okay in the E4, but not amazing.
Malva: Eh... Resists Florges's STAB and Should-be-STAB.
Wikstrom: Keep away.
Drasna: Easily KOs Altaria, Druddigon, and Noivern; watch out for Dragalge though.
Siebold: Since Florges gets so many Grass attacks, it does well against Siebold. Watch out for Gyarados, though.
Diantha: Wins against Hawlucha, Goodra, and Tyrantrum. Can wall Aurorus and Gardevoir, but can't do much to either. Neutral matchup against Gourgeist.

Other comments: If you want to hold off on evolution to get better moves (or use the Shiny Stone on something else), the Eviolite is obtainable in Shalour City. Although Eviolite Floette is inferior to Florges, it still works pretty well.

 

[Merm]

Florges' movepool is waay too narrow to warrant anywhere near B, and Grass coverage is pretty meh ingame too. More fitted for D, IMO.

 

[Afti]

I used Florges on my first runthrough. It has difficulty pulling its weight with EXP. Share on full-time. Lame movepool, slow, kinda lacking in terms of power; D-tier is probably about right. Maybe C if you want to stretch, since it is early enough to get a decent head start.

Fairy Wind as your main STAB until Valerie is awful, and your physical defense is lacking. For what it's worth, my Floette did jack shit against Korrina in spite of the type advantage; it died to Pokemon with move, and Fairy Wind did approximately no damage.

Also, apparently Xerneas isn't tiered yet? Obvious shoo-in for S tier. You get it, you spam Moonblast, you sweep everything. Comes late, but there's no set-up; it's at a high level and has great stats. You trash everything but Pyroar on Lysandre's team, and then you can just throw Moonblast at, uh, most of the remaining game. You have to catch it to progress; there's no real reason not to use it for the home stretch.

Haven't actually used Yveltal ingame, but I imagine it'd work the same way. Spam Dark Pulse, win.

 

[TakatoGuil]

Florges' movepool is waay too narrow to warrant anywhere near B, and Grass STAB is pretty meh ingame too. More fitted for D, IMO.

Florges doesn't actually have Grass STAB; despite appearances it is actually is pure Fairy-type.

 

[Merm]

Whoops, slip of they keyboard. Meant Grass coverage hahaha
I think it was discussed that Xerneas comes in a bit late to be S-tier.

 

[Raikaria]

I'll put Beedrill forward for D Tier. I had things written out; but then my browser crashed and I don't feel like re-typing. The jist of it is:

Beedrill is D because it has good matchups in the first half of the game; and retains some use later [It only truely becomes useless at the E4; since it can actually beat 2/3 of Wulfric's team]


It beats Alexia with Fury Attack spamming
It can beat Grant's Amaura with Rock Smash; and if it is running Swords Dance and risked it on Amaura; beats Tyrunt too.
It can beat Korrina's Meinfoo with AA; and if running Swords Dance; then goes on to beat Machoke
It beats Ramos' Weepingbel and Gogoat
It beats Valerie's Sylveon
It beats Wulfric's Abomasnow and Cyrongal.
It beats the Rival's Absol and Greninja [Only as Greninja]

Basically; thanks to Swords Dance being early and good TM access when it needs those TM's; Beedrill remains relevant for quite a while.

Anyway; I'm going to take the plunge and try out some stuff I expect most won't want to try. Like Pansear. I'm also gonna try Manetric because I have Y and I am interested in how useful Manetric can be; seeing as you get the Flamethrower and Thunderbolt TM's during the main game. [And Electric Terrain Thunderbolt by Tutor seems interesting]

Also I'll say that Swablu should move down to E Tier. Swablu only comes in Swarms at the 8th Gym [Which is a horrible matchup] and is WOEFULLY underleveled. Altaria isn't exactly good either but at least isn't swarm-only and woefully underleveled.

Also Spearow isn't available in-game without breeding. It should be listed as Fearow; like Liepard and Mightyena are listed.

My two cents on Carbink is E Tier. It's basically a Shuckle that traded it's Bug-type for Fairy-type... and has lightly better offenses.

 

[DHR-107]

Uhhh... Beedrill does not beat Grant. You are utterly mad if you think this is the case. Rock Tomb and Take Down utterly ruin Beedrill of the same level. After reading your comment I was doing calcs and if Amuara uses Rock Tomb first, you lose. Badly. Like, it deals 60%+ to you. And thats if you are the same level as Grant is. I have no idea how you managed to beat Grant with Beedrill honestly unless the AI was doing something seriously derp. Not arguing with D placement, but I think he's lucky to be there.

Carbink is definitely D material. It has offences unlike Shuckle and it can actually hurt stuff with Ancient Power/Dazzling Gleam. It was my go to mon for me against Team Flare too, hitting pretty much everything they had decently. The only thing is its slow and takes forever to level up.

 

[Tomy]

I was thinking about Bellossom tiering. Dear boy, it's a downgraded version of Vileplume. No Poison Stab, no Petal Dance, inferior attacking stats... I think it should be D-tier, because well, 90 Sp.Atk isn't that bad...

 

[Korlashh]

Haven't actually used Yveltal ingame, but I imagine it'd work the same way. Spam Dark Pulse, win.

I used for the final Lysandre battle to say the least, which it didn't sweep him like Xerneas did.

It can beat Mienshao, and Honchcrow, but I recall being outpowered by [mega]Gyarados. I can't remember how it did against Pyroar, but I'm pretty certain it outspeed me and did a number with fire blast.

I'd say a tier lower than Xerneas because this is one of its only major battles for it to shine. It also can't even use a boosting move besides Hone Claws, while Xerneas can use Geomancy and go apeshit on anything.

 

[lucariomaster2]

I definitely agree with Xerneas being S-tier; Set up Geomancy once (Not hard), spam Moonblast, and boom. Instant win.