Pokémon Suicune

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Wise Walrus

Wise Walrus


Pokemon: Suicune
Type: Water
Ability: Pressure / Water Absorb (Unreleased)
Base Stats: 100/75/115/90/115/85

Notable Moves:
Scald
Surf
Hydro Pump
Calm Mind
Ice Beam
Rest
Sleep Talk
Shadow Ball
Air Slash
Extrasensory
Rain Dance
Reflect
Mirror Coat
Extremespeed
Substitute
Tailwind
Toxic
Roar

General Analysis:​
Suicune dropped to UU last generation, in part due to a change in sleep mechanics which greatly​
reduced the effectiveness and viability of its flagship set. With a return to the old sleep mechanics this generation, RestTalk is dangerous once again. A good defensive typing in mono water and excellent natural bulk allows Suicune to fill the role of either a bulky pivot or set-up sweeper. It can also be a valuable asset to a defensive FWG core with access to good support moves in tailwind and roar. While X and Y have brought it no new moves, a general shift in the metagame to bulky offense could allow it to thrive in OU.

Perhaps the one weakness of Suicune is its predictability. A shallow movepool along with mediocre​
base 90 special attack and 85 speed prevent it from really thriving as anything other than the above roles, lacking power on Scarf sets and speed on Specs sets. This predictability allows your opponent easy switches into counters and also provides them with a general idea of what your team is trying to do.

Potential Sets:
​
CroCune
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

CroCune returns once more to OU with the buff to RestTalk and a great mono attacking move in​
Scald. Rest provides pseudo-immunity to status as well as reliable recovery in order to keep your sweep alive, and the burn chance of Scald increases Cune's already impressive physical defense. Minor investment in speed allows you to outpace defensive variants of Rotom-W and Calm Mind in their face before the Volt-Switch, taking only 18%-22% damage after leftovers recovery. This also means that Genesect will now receive an Attack boost from Download so you don't have to worry about boosted Thunderbolts. The rest of the EV's are dumped into physical bulk.

Something particularly noteworthy about this set is that it actually beats Mega-Venusaur one on one,​
barring a crit and as long as it does not carry Leech Seed. Most Venusaur will stay in allowing you to Calm Mind up and sweep as long as none of your opponents Pokemon have a water immunity. Pressure is an underrated ability which allows you to stall Venusaur and other pokemon out of their SE/Coverage moves, and Suicune has the bulk to use it effectively.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Suicune greatly appreciates Pursuit trappers as two of its strongest counters are Specially Defensive​
Celebi and Jellicent. Both stop CroCune cold and have ways to threaten switch-ins through status. This makes both Scizor and Tyranitar great teammates, although Suicune does not appreciate Sandstorm neutralizing its leftovers. Kyurem-B also makes an excellent teammate, resisting both of Suicune's weaknesses allowing it to safely get in and behind a sub.
​
 
Sirya

Sirya

Now CroCune has all the tools as dispose: IV Gen. Sleep Mechanics AND Scald, instead of Surf. I've been using a lot this 'mon back in DPPl meta and... well, everyone knows how bulky this thing is. It can absorb without problem hits like +2 Outrage from SDChomp. Its physical endure is more than incredible; is as monster. Suicune was one of the reasons why I include a Milotic with Haze/Trickrachi on any team i made.

In this generacion, Suicune simply has gained in every single way, and I'm pretty sure that we're gonna be this thing in action for a long time. The return of old sleep mechanics along with Scald and the potential burns, is all it needs for its purpose.
 
rachet67

rachet67

CroCune
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

This set is easily set up on, and more importantly, walled by a ton of pokemon (venesaur, celebi, keldeo, insert bulky water type with water absorb). Venesaur can leech seed the set, keldeo can use secret sword, celebi can set up. I understand its meant to PP stall, but it has a lot of offensive checks that can set up if you predict the rest (lucario mega for example). You don't want to have to rely on getting lucky with getting scald in the first place and then getting burn.

Final nail in the coffin for serious OU usage, is that manaphy, while more offensive and with a slightly different use, can act as a bulky set up pokemon, and wreck some shit immediately. It has nearly perfect coverage with surf, energy ball, ice beam too. Though if you really going for PP stall, then it differentiates itself enough to have a small niche in OU though.
 
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effyouzion

rachet67 said:
CroCune
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

This set is easily set up on, and more importantly, walled by a ton of pokemon (venesaur, celebi, keldeo, insert bulky water type with water absorb). Venesaur can leech seed the set, keldeo can use secret sword, celebi can set up. I understand its meant to PP stall, but it has a lot of offensive checks that can set up while sleeping (lucario mega for example). You don't want to have to rely on getting lucky with getting scald in the first place and then getting burn.

Final nail in the coffin is that manaphy, while more offensive and with a slightly different use, can act as a bulky set up pokemon, and wreck some shit immediately. It has nearly perfect coverage with surf, energy ball, ice beam too.
Click to expand...
Keldeo loses to Suicune (unless specs Keldeo or sub/CM Keldeo). Venusaur and Celebi lose too unless they run leech seed, and even then, you can still PP stall their attacks and switch out once that job is done. Water absorb pokes can be beat by using any of your other 5 team members to hit them with toxic at some point in the match, which turns them into setup bait for your Suicune.

As far as Suicune vs. Manaphy, Suicune is definitely better in this bulky meta. In hyper offense, neither perform particularly well (Suicune for obvious reasons and Manaphy because 100 speed is too slow to sweep).
 
rachet67

rachet67

Keldeo loses to Suicune (unless specs Keldeo or sub/CM Keldeo). Venusaur and Celebi lose too unless they run leech seed, and even then, you can still PP stall their attacks and switch out once that job is done.
Click to expand...
I'm aware that passive damage such as leech seed, toxic, and will-o-wisp can't beat suicune. What they can do is force it to rest, while you switch to a physical attacker, and possibly even set up. Most keldeos are specs so that does give suicune a problem.

As far as Suicune vs. Manaphy, Suicune is definitely better in this bulky meta. In hyper offense, neither perform particularly well (Suicune for obvious reasons and Manaphy because 100 speed is too slow to sweep).
Click to expand...
Manaphy does much better generally in this meta. Gen 5 PO clear skies was hyper offense and manaphy was pretty much what it is now. Even without rain Manaphy was still so good it was one of the first things banned. The bulky tail glow variant (252 HP/ 4 SpA/ 252 Spe, Timid) is still reasonably fast, can take a lot, and can destroy nearly anything not called chansey, blissey, or ferrothorn. Manaphy is definitely a better pokemon for most purposes, though it can't pp stall.
 
Wise Walrus

Wise Walrus

rachet67 said:
CroCune
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

This set is easily set up on, and more importantly, walled by a ton of pokemon (venesaur, celebi, keldeo, insert bulky water type with water absorb). Venesaur can leech seed the set, keldeo can use secret sword, celebi can set up. I understand its meant to PP stall, but it has a lot of offensive checks that can set up if you predict the rest (lucario mega for example). You don't want to have to rely on getting lucky with getting scald in the first place and then getting burn.

Final nail in the coffin for serious OU usage, is that manaphy, while more offensive and with a slightly different use, can act as a bulky set up pokemon, and wreck some shit immediately. It has nearly perfect coverage with surf, energy ball, ice beam too. Though if you really going for PP stall, then it differentiates itself enough to have a small niche in OU though.
Click to expand...
It's actually not meant to PP stall, it's just something that it can do against its counters. Without leech seed venusaur needs a crit in order to beat it, which to me means it is not a counter or a check. Essentially all venusaur does is allow Suicune to boost to +4/+5 and wreck the rest of a team after taking it out. As far as Mega-Lucario switching in, rest only lasts two turns, so if you switch after a rest Cune gets a free sleep talk on Luc before it can do anything. The turn you set up it gets a second, and then the turn you attack it wakes up and scalds. If either of those sleep talks lands a scald you lose, and even a +2 CC only has a 50% chance to OHKO (+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Suicune: 372-438 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). And that's only physical lucario. Special Lucario can't touch it.
 
Pipotchi

Pipotchi

is a Top Artistis a CAP Contributor
What's the bonus of Resttalk suicune over Resttalk milotic? I've always favoured Milotic due to her better stats while asleep, as well as slightly better special attack. She also has the hidden bonus of feigning a recover set and making people waste turns on her using status.
Also what does Suicune beat that Milotic doesnt? These are genuine questions btw, I've never really used suicune so Id like to know
 
Wise Walrus

Wise Walrus

Pipotchi said:
What's the bonus of Resttalk suicune over Resttalk milotic? I've always favoured Milotic due to her better stats while asleep, as well as slightly better special attack. She also has the hidden bonus of feigning a recover set and making people waste turns on her using status.
Also what does Suicune beat that Milotic doesnt? These are genuine questions btw, I've never really used suicune so Id like to know
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly Milotic does not get calm mind, without which it cant really do anything. Using calm mind lets Suicune invest fully in defense and Hp whereas Milotic would have to divy up the EVs four ways between hp def sp. atk and sp. def
 

effyouzion

rachet67 said:
I'm aware that passive damage such as leech seed, toxic, and will-o-wisp can't beat suicune. What they can do is force it to rest, while you switch to a physical attacker, and possibly even set up. Most keldeos are specs so that does give suicune a problem.
Click to expand...
Either way you're still PP stalling until you have to rest, and it's possible to predict that the other guy is gonna switch to a setup sweeper and switch yourself. You only give someone free turns if you let them. That said, leech seed is very annoying for Cune, however if you can burn mega Venusaur and force it to switch with less than 100% hp, you've gone a long way towards beating it with the other members of your team.

Also, specs Keldeo is easy to play around. You should obviously not leave your Suicune in to get 3HKO'd by a specs Keldeo. At that point, anyone with a brain would switch out to a ghost type or your fighting resist.



Manaphy does much better generally in this meta. Gen 5 PO clear skies was hyper offense and manaphy was pretty much what it is now. Even without rain Manaphy was still so good it was one of the first things banned. The bulky tail glow variant (252 HP/ 4 SpA/ 252 Spe, Timid) is still reasonably fast, can take a lot, and can destroy nearly anything not called chansey, blissey, or ferrothorn. Manaphy is definitely a better pokemon for most purposes, though it can't pp stall.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I've made teams with both and my stall team centered around Suicune was more successful than my offensive teams centered around Manaphy. I'm also skeptical about your 252 HP spread being better. Does that turn any important OHKOs into 2HKOs? Or 2HKOs into 3HKOs? Because a lot of Manaphy's KOs are just barely there after 1 boost even with max SpA.
 
Calm_Mind_Latias

Calm_Mind_Latias

Suicune for OU!!

Seriously.

This set is easily set up on, and more importantly, walled by a ton of pokemon (venesaur, celebi, keldeo, insert bulky water type with water absorb). Venesaur can leech seed the set, keldeo can use secret sword, celebi can set up. I understand its meant to PP stall, but it has a lot of offensive checks that can set up if you predict the rest (lucario mega for example). You don't want to have to rely on getting lucky with getting scald in the first place and then getting burn.
Click to expand...
Using CroCune, I find that through experience, Mega-Venusaur and Celebi would lose to it, even with Leech Seed, due to the defensive boosts by Calm Mind. With team support, you can Toxic Water Absorb or Unaware Pokemon.

Ferrothorn only does about ~40% to it with a STAB 120 BP move.

It is hard to take on once it is set-up.

---

I posted this before:

Since OU is defined by usage stats, Suicune may creep up to OU too, even though it would ironically do worse in UU as it can be effectively checked in an UU environment with more Grass types that would not make OU due to being a U-turn, Talonflame, or Heatran liability. Many Dragon players are reluctant to use Outrage due to the presence of Fairies and this means Crocune is less likely to be overpowered with a Calm Mind boost. Physical electric moves have a low distribution, and I can only recall Arcanine, Victini, and Kyurem-B possessing them (and obviously the Uber Zekrom) and they are not STAB. Lastly, without permanent rain, there are fewer Storm Drain or Water Absorb Pokemon running around to check rain-boosted Keldeo, Specs Politoed and Starmie.

Also, it no longer has to compete with Politoed, but has to compete with Rotom-W and Mega Blastoise.

Suicune also has a subtle benefit due to the change in crit mechanics.
 
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Skyderp

Skyderp

Could you use an Assault Vest set? Just wondering, since Suicune has good Special Defense, and enhancing it even more can wall dangerous mons like Latios and Special Mega Lucario(I think)
 
CrazyBacon

CrazyBacon

How effective would Suicune be as a shuffler, with roar? Like it did in Gen 4.
A few spikes, some stealth rocks here and there and start shuffling.

Suicune@Leftovers
Bold
248HP/248Def/12Spe (i dont know, a few gens ago it was max hp/def)
Pressure
-Roar
-Scald/Surf
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Goal is not to sweep, but to shuffle your opponents team to rack up hazard damage. Skarmory and a ghost type (trevanent springs to mind) as partners.
 
Calm_Mind_Latias

Calm_Mind_Latias

Skyderp said:
Could you use an Assault Vest set? Just wondering, since Suicune has good Special Defense.
Click to expand...
Well, it has a weak, unboosted special attack, and Assault Vest prevents it from using the classic CroCune set.


CrazyBacon said:
How effective would Suicune be as a shuffler, with roar? Like it did in Gen 4.
A few spikes, some stealth rocks here and there and start shuffling.

Suicune@Leftovers
Bold
248HP/248Def/12Spe (i dont know, a few gens ago it was max hp/def)
Pressure
-Roar
-Scald/Surf
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Goal is not to sweep, but to shuffle your opponents team to rack up hazard damage. Skarmory and a ghost type (trevanent springs to mind) as partners.
Click to expand...
I find this to be less useful due to the increased prevalence of Defog and spinners such as Excadril.
 
Prosecutor Godot

Prosecutor Godot

rachet67 said:
CroCune
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

This set is easily set up on, and more importantly, walled by a ton of pokemon (venesaur, celebi, keldeo, insert bulky water type with water absorb). Venesaur can leech seed the set, keldeo can use secret sword, celebi can set up. I understand its meant to PP stall, but it has a lot of offensive checks that can set up if you predict the rest (lucario mega for example). You don't want to have to rely on getting lucky with getting scald in the first place and then getting burn.

Final nail in the coffin for serious OU usage, is that manaphy, while more offensive and with a slightly different use, can act as a bulky set up pokemon, and wreck some shit immediately. It has nearly perfect coverage with surf, energy ball, ice beam too. Though if you really going for PP stall, then it differentiates itself enough to have a small niche in OU though.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. Keldeo isn't a threat to CroCune at all can't even touch it after a few CM boosts except for the rare CM set. That just leaves bulky grass types and water immunities to hard-wall CroCune, and they're both easily dispatched of with certain pokemon i.e a LO Latios with Roost, Thunderbolt, Surf and Draco Meteor. CroCune is very viable right now, you just have to construct a team around it instead of slapping it on. The only thing that I would say is a downside of running CroCune, has to do with Sleep Talk. It can become very luck based when CroCune's life depends on it landing Scald and it Rests both Sleep Talks. Mega-Lucario is a threat...? Yeah, ok it is. It's broken as hell, it threatens everything.
 

Quaily

suicune is hands down the best sacred fire entei counter for what that's worth. the big problem with suicune now is going scald+ice beam just doesn't get you the coverage it used to any more.
 
Wise Walrus

Wise Walrus

Quaily said:
suicune is hands down the best sacred fire entei counter for what that's worth. the big problem with suicune now is going scald+ice beam just doesn't get you the coverage it used to any more.
Click to expand...
To be honest I don't really see how that's relevant. CroCune has no problem getting through bulky waters and grass types with just scald so Ice Beam is just a waste of a moveslot. I've experimented with a Resto-Chesto Cune over lefties/Sleep talk, but basically you only get one chance to set up and you really miss the staying power of resting and lefties, plus status immunity. The only other viable set to use it on would be SubCM I guess, but again, no staying power. Basically what it comes down to is you have 5 other teammates to get rid of or soften up bulky waters/celebi, there aren't many pokemon (if any) that can take the entire metagame alone.
 

Quaily

ice beam is mostly for dragons. goodra and latias especially are annoying to crocune, both have huge spd and can set up/phaze it out. I went without sleep talk
 
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