I did say in the post the predicted SE. And if they predict the switch and use CC then you got predicted. Not a bad decision on you, but good for them. And Azumarill can even take a Banded SE. My intial calc was wrong Azumarill only OHKO's 6.3% after rocks, but guarnteed on what's looking like the "standard" LO set. And not everybody runs aegislash so what do you do if you don't have aegis? Switch to one of the multiple checks terrakion has.
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Pokémon Terrakion
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It being 4x weak to rocks hasn't stopped from being the most used mon has it? Plus with defog being what it is, and obviously rapid spin aswell, not that hard to get rocks out anyway. And it's not so much switching in tf into terrakion at full hp it's like you said revenge killing it. Assuming adamant max for atk/speed and jolly max speed for terrakion, here's a revenge kill situation just for lols. Pick any item you want on terrakion and in most cases, it will either switch or die, unless some ignorant kid thinks switching in to a choiced SE is a good idea. CC is a guarnteed 2HKO with a band, but only a 5.1% chance scarfed and that's on like I already said 0/0. Think of all the forced switches when your choiced. Or life orb recoil on other sets. It adds up quick if you're not careful. That damage is what turns the 2HKO into the OHKO. For example, one switch into SR and one turn of LO recoil, we'll say is talonflame switching into a cc turns it into a 68.75% chance to ko. Say your choiced and you switch in and out twice, that's still a 37.5% of you dying. Or you get scared out cause you don't feel like taking unneccassary damage. So if your terrakion is at full hp, then talonflame isn't as big a threat. But even then, you stay in and lose 78% minimum, and that's a wasted terrakion.
So morale of the story is unless you have no choice, or you've got a couple of boosts under your belt, staying in isn't recommended unless you want an almost(or totally) dead terrakion.
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It depends on the scenario. Sacking a revenge killer just so your other revenge killer can force Terrakion out isn't exactly a good scenario. And TalonFlame is switching into Terrakion? When one of Terrakion's STAB moves is guaranteed to OHKO it? And if rocks are up it's not coming in at all.
If you have any possible thoughts that it might SE, then you don't switch it in if you have any other option. While it's definitely not a counter, it's a good check. Because it can force it out on a locked CC or have a good chance of OHKOing after LO recoil, under a good number of scenarios gives it a switch or die ultimatum.
it can only beat terrakion if both talonflame and terrakion are banded, and terrakion is locked into CC/quake. it's going to lose in every other possible situation except lolhax. that's as flimsy a check as you can get. you might as well say terrakion is a talonflame check since it resists fire and can ohko it with a rock move. in fact it's a better check since terrakion will always ohko talonflame, while talonflame cannot ohko terrakion in most situations.
A couple points.
1. It's only switching into cc/eq anyway so that goes without saying. Switching it into a rock move with any other possible option literally deserves you getting cleaned up/swept by said terrakion.
2. It resisting FB and forcing TF out is basically the same scenario as Talon resisting CC and forcing it out, so that'a two-way street.
3. Ephinany just happened. I Since TF mainly switchs into CC, neither of us are calculating the terrakion at -1 defense. This changes everything with the calcs.
252+ LO Talonflame vs -1 0/0 Terrakion=103-121.9% Guarnteed OHKO
So TF is actually an almost perfect check because it can alaways eat a CC and force the switch or destroy terrakion. And LO FB + BB is a guarnteed 2HKO so the only time terra wins outside of prediction or hax is coming in on banded FB. So if anything, terrakion is a VERY flimsy tf check and the time it does it will never get the SE on talonflame.
if terrakion doesn't use CC, or isn't banded, or talonflame isn't banded(+0 brave bird does 48.2 - 56.9%) then it's going to lose. period. terrakion has several other sets and talonflame is simply not a good check to it, and neither is greninja. aegislash is the only kind of check that was introduced this gen and it still needs to watch out for sets with earthquake since shadow sneak is going to do dickall.
Where are you getting that calc from, Lefties TalonFlame or Jolly? I've never seen anyone run jolly And if talonflame doesn't FB the incoming terrakion it beats terra, period. And if talonflame is LO with SD on the switch terrakion loses too. And assuming both CC and SE are neutral(on the mon being switched out for TF), more often than not you CC. Unless terra predicts the switch and goes for SE, you lose 100% of the time. While neither of them are perfect checks to each other, TF checks Terrakion much more effectively then Terrakion checks it. And as for greninja, it just outspeeds and revenge kills. Aegis is a bit trickier because of all it's different sets. In a nutshell, unless it eqs on the switch terrakion is scared out or dies whether it's from Brave Sacred Sword, or Quiet Flash Cannon.
i wanna get a bit of discussion going about this thing because i think its really slept on in OU atm, and ive been experimenting with a couple of different sets.
1.) choice scarf. this thing is totally underrated atm, i think its one of the best scarfers in the tier. why? because its offensive typing is pretty much perfect for revenging the most prominent sweepers around atm: mega zard x, mega gyara, and mega ttar. all three are cleanly OHKOd by terrakions stabs, even at full hp. its also the only thing that can OHKO mega gyarados from full hp both before AND after it mevos if you predict right. on top of these, it outspeeds the most common scarfers in the tier, being garchomp, rotom, and excadrill, doing nice damage to all of them. if you can break the multiscale, you can revenge any dragonite also, because of the nice rock resist you can eat up extremespeed all day. it even outspeeds deoxys-s and has x-scissor for coverage, so if you can get deoxys to take some hazard and LO recoil damage, you can revenge it. if only this thing had u-turn > x-scissor it would be perfect :( scarf terrak fits very nicely onto HO teams as a get out of jail free card that means you dont have to sacrifice thundurus, and it also baits out and weakens stuff like skarmory and hippo, which is very useful if the team is built around a physical sweeper.
2.) choice band. on paper this set looks deadly, in practice it struggles to live up to expectations. banded CC has the raw power to OHKO alot of the metagame, even 2HKOing things on resisted hits, like zapdos and azumarill. the problem, however, is aegislash. this thing alone makes terraks stabs infinitely less spammable, and it makes using the set a precarious guessing game. will your opponent predict the CC and go into aegislash? or will they switch to their flying/levitating defogger, which 9/10 times resists CC? on top of this, will they protect to scout your move first, or switch directly? to use CB terrakion well in this meta you pretty much have to be a prediction god, and your opponent will always have something that can come in and force you out if youre locked into a ground move. specs keldeo pretty much does what CB terrakion does but better, because there are way less things that can switch into its stabs, and those that can have easily exploitable weaknesses (pursuit)
3.) swords dance life orb. i havent used this too much, but imo this is the way to go for using terrak on balance. no mindgames are needed, essentially. terrakion forces out alot of switches, and most peoples knee jerk reaction is to go out into aegislash. sucks for them, because +2 EQ is an OHKO and youre free to stone edge their flying/levitator after that too. like i say havent used this much yet but having used terrakion a bunch generally, i think its gonna be hot shit
so yea theres a few sets ive been using a bunch :)
1.) choice scarf. this thing is totally underrated atm, i think its one of the best scarfers in the tier. why? because its offensive typing is pretty much perfect for revenging the most prominent sweepers around atm: mega zard x, mega gyara, and mega ttar. all three are cleanly OHKOd by terrakions stabs, even at full hp. its also the only thing that can OHKO mega gyarados from full hp both before AND after it mevos if you predict right. on top of these, it outspeeds the most common scarfers in the tier, being garchomp, rotom, and excadrill, doing nice damage to all of them. if you can break the multiscale, you can revenge any dragonite also, because of the nice rock resist you can eat up extremespeed all day. it even outspeeds deoxys-s and has x-scissor for coverage, so if you can get deoxys to take some hazard and LO recoil damage, you can revenge it. if only this thing had u-turn > x-scissor it would be perfect :( scarf terrak fits very nicely onto HO teams as a get out of jail free card that means you dont have to sacrifice thundurus, and it also baits out and weakens stuff like skarmory and hippo, which is very useful if the team is built around a physical sweeper.
2.) choice band. on paper this set looks deadly, in practice it struggles to live up to expectations. banded CC has the raw power to OHKO alot of the metagame, even 2HKOing things on resisted hits, like zapdos and azumarill. the problem, however, is aegislash. this thing alone makes terraks stabs infinitely less spammable, and it makes using the set a precarious guessing game. will your opponent predict the CC and go into aegislash? or will they switch to their flying/levitating defogger, which 9/10 times resists CC? on top of this, will they protect to scout your move first, or switch directly? to use CB terrakion well in this meta you pretty much have to be a prediction god, and your opponent will always have something that can come in and force you out if youre locked into a ground move. specs keldeo pretty much does what CB terrakion does but better, because there are way less things that can switch into its stabs, and those that can have easily exploitable weaknesses (pursuit)
3.) swords dance life orb. i havent used this too much, but imo this is the way to go for using terrak on balance. no mindgames are needed, essentially. terrakion forces out alot of switches, and most peoples knee jerk reaction is to go out into aegislash. sucks for them, because +2 EQ is an OHKO and youre free to stone edge their flying/levitator after that too. like i say havent used this much yet but having used terrakion a bunch generally, i think its gonna be hot shit
so yea theres a few sets ive been using a bunch :)
Yeah without HP Ice Landorus-T and Gliscor wall you (SD can beat Gliscor but its tricky) its definitely worth a mention.
I feel like LO SD and LO HP Ice are the vest sets this gen with choice scarf being an option for pure revenge killing but Aegislash is a huge hurdle for choice sets as locking yourself into earthquake is easily abused and it cares very little about your stabs.
I feel like LO SD and LO HP Ice are the vest sets this gen with choice scarf being an option for pure revenge killing but Aegislash is a huge hurdle for choice sets as locking yourself into earthquake is easily abused and it cares very little about your stabs.
If it's a Swords Dance set, +1 Stone Edge and +2 Stone Edge deal more damage to Lando-T and Gliscor, respectively, than HP Ice coming from an uninvested Special Attack. Even invested, it will never OHKO a standard Lando-T or Gliscor.
252+ SpA Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 236-280 (61.7 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(236, 240, 240, 244, 248, 252, 252, 256, 260, 260, 264, 268, 268, 272, 276, 280)
252+ SpA Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 248-296 (70 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
(248, 252, 256, 260, 260, 264, 268, 272, 272, 276, 280, 284, 284, 288, 292, 296)
I think you're better off having teammates that can deal with those two.
Who DOES handle Gliscor? Icicle Spear Mamoswine? There has to be more than just the mammoth.
pretty much anything faster with a water or ice move, gliscor isnt that hard to deal with. alternatively, anything which cant be poisoed and doesnt care about EQ, like skarmory, balloon heatran, venusaur, gengar, ferrothorn, etc
just dont let it sub up in your face against something it outspeeds
although you do have to be careful if your water type is rotom-w (which makes a nice partner for terrak), because that can be stalled out of hydro pump all day
just dont let it sub up in your face against something it outspeeds
although you do have to be careful if your water type is rotom-w (which makes a nice partner for terrak), because that can be stalled out of hydro pump all day
I think now that Mega Lucario is gone and there really isn't a fast Fighting type anymore (Who uses Regular Lucario), Terrakion should be used more. A set that I've been looking into and using a lot was a Work Up mixed set. +1 Stone Edge OHKOs (or 2HKO) most the threats from the post above (Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, etc.). I don't think I really have to explain +1 Close Combat. I've used Work Up for the reason being Hidden Power Ice. +1 4 SAtk Life Orb has a possibility of OHKOing Landorus-T and Gliscor. Only main problems I have encountered was Aegislash but when backed up, I think this set can wreck havoc.
Some Calculations:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (62.5% to OHKO without SR)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Showing Stone Edge 2HKO and that Venusaur cannot switch in)
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 312-369 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Showing Terrakion has a chance against Landorus-T as usually it never did before)
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 328-390 (92.6 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Showing the OHKO-- 62.5% chance without SR)
Some Calculations:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (62.5% to OHKO without SR)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Showing Stone Edge 2HKO and that Venusaur cannot switch in)
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 312-369 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Showing Terrakion has a chance against Landorus-T as usually it never did before)
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 328-390 (92.6 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Showing the OHKO-- 62.5% chance without SR)
I was showing from the above posts that I have been reading saying Azumarill and Mega Venusaur are complete counters. I mean like, if that's all you have that can take on Azumarill, tbh I would go for it. Aqua Jet doesn't KO (80%-95%).
Work Up was rightfully dismissed in BW and I don't see why it should be different now. You use the move and they know you have HP Ice (which is weaker than last gen). Then you're left with weaker physical moves after using a turn to set up and die or get forced out.
He does plenty of damage to Gliscor and Landorus with +2 Stone Edge anyway (+1 in Land's case). Just use Swords Dance if you want to set up.
He does plenty of damage to Gliscor and Landorus with +2 Stone Edge anyway (+1 in Land's case). Just use Swords Dance if you want to set up.
if terrakion is the only thing you have to hit azumarill then you probably should build a better team because thats like one of the most common things to revenge terrak, having a good bulky grass like ferro or venu as a swich in is pretty important on balance
Bashing me much? I never said me specifically. And for the post above that, Gliscor can easily stall put Terrakion w. SubProtect and healing up from Stone Edge. On top of that, its shaky accuracy. HP Ice is guaranteed even after Gliscor tries to double Protect, on top of that you won't have to worry about Stone Edge missing. You pretty much covered what I would have to say for Landorus-T. It will tank anything Terrakion has (Intimidate as stated earlier) and can just OHKO with EQ. If they know you have HP Ice by then, you can force a switch and maybe you can predict something.
It's not bashing. It's called stating a fact. A fact that can't be so easily brushed off with theoretical perfect situations.
Realistically in typical competitive play, you're not setting up Swords Dance or Work Up with Life Orb at full heath. Azumarill, as well as almost any good revenge killer with good priority or faster attacks, therefore CAN finish Terrakion off, and the only way you're gonna save it is by pairing up Terrakion with a good Water, and maybe Fairy, resist, such as Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn. On a secondary note, Swords Dance achieves much more KOes than Work Up can on so many other defensive targets than Venusaur, which isn't even KO'd after +1.
"you probably should build a better team"
Was referring to this statement.
But onto what you said I understand what you are saying, I was trying to get my point across saying that the two are Checks. Neither one of Mega Saur or Azumarill can switch into Terrakion. Even if its not Work Up or if its Swords Dance, neither one of them can switch in thus making it a Check. I think I showed with the calculations I previously posted.
Was referring to this statement.
But onto what you said I understand what you are saying, I was trying to get my point across saying that the two are Checks. Neither one of Mega Saur or Azumarill can switch into Terrakion. Even if its not Work Up or if its Swords Dance, neither one of them can switch in thus making it a Check. I think I showed with the calculations I previously posted.
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