XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[EonX]

Yeah, I haven't seen much need for Hydreigon to use Flash Cannon since Florges is the most common defensive Fairy-type and Gardevoir can be 2HKOed by Dark Pulse. I would honestly run Roost or Superpower in the last slot. Roost gives Hydreigon more longevity and 92 / 90 / 90 defenses isn't that bad for an offensive Pokemon. However, considering Nidoqueen is the other primary member of your offensive core Feast , Superpower can, you know, do relevant damage to the one thing that shits on Queen and Hydre otherwise; Chansey. Of course, this means that you kind of have to rely on Wish Support if you want to keep Hydreigon around, but using Superpower allows it to become a fantastic wallbreaker.

 

[DTC]

Why haven't people been using this beast more often?

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 Def / 184 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam / Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Crunch / Fire Punch / Selfdestruct (legal with Pursuit now)

Assault Vest is a great item for Snorlax as it already used a 4 attacks offensive tank set back in BW. It counters pretty much every special attacker you could imagine at least once aside from Keldeo. Kyurem, Zapdos, Mega Blastoise, Chandelure, Hydreigon, and many others can't hope to break Snorlax. It also counters common sun abusers well such as Victreebel, Mega Houndoom, and Chandelure. Its only problem is the lack of recovery, like any Assault Vest Pokemon, but it's worth losing for the insane Special Defense boost. Great Pokemon to use on any bulky offense team.

72 Def EV's allow Snorlax to live 2 Life Orb Psyshocks from Latias as long as SR isn't up, but you could run more/less depending on your team.

some calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 192-229 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 162-192 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 121-144 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 120-142 (26 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[EonX]

I'd be more worried about Psyshock from Gardeovoir, but even so, to only be 4HKOed by Pixilate Hyper Voice from Mega Gardevoir is pretty damn impressive. Mind you that's without a resistance... That's kinda ridiculous the more I think about it haha. Anyway, someone mentioned Machamp on the last page, but it's actually fairly intriguing. Knock Off is a huge buff for it and actually lets it beat down the Ghost-types that were previously full-on stops for it. Unlike the other premier Fighting-types, Medicham and Heracross, it doesn't use up your Mega slot. Anyways, here's a set I've been testing out. Haven't done a lot of battles with it yet, but it's seemed pretty decent:

Machamp (F) @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Substitute / Bullet Punch

So, yeah, this thing can tear holes into stuff. Well, that's nothing new. Machamp has always been pretty good with that. However, there are a couple of buffs that really help it. Knock Off is the main one. No longer can you just fling in a Ghost-type and be safe from any attack, most notably, STAB Dynamic Punch. Thanks to No Guard, Dynamic Punch will always hit and will cause the opponent to only have a 50/50 shot of actually being able to attempt an attack on Machamp. Knock Off deals with Ghost- and Psychic-types that may try to test their luck. Great since it can hit Jellicent, Latias, and Celebi really hard. Poison Jab seems odd, but it's pretty much necessary considering Fairy-types take jack shit from your other two moves. Substitute is a great last move since Machamp can cause many switches due to the fear of its powerful Dynamic Punch. Bullet Punch is another option to keep Machamp from taking unecessary hits and finishing off weakened Fairy-types that may otherwise outspeed and smack Machamp. Leftovers should be used with Substitute so your health doesn't just vanish. If you don't use Leftovers, you can opt for a Lum Berry. Since Lum Berry gives Machamp a free pass on status, there's less of a need for Substitute with it and Bullet Punch should be used. Machamp can be a great wallbreaker for most sweepers that struggle to handle Fairy- or Ghost-type Pokemon. Haxorus, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross are just a few examples of such Pokemon.

 

[kokoloko]

Okay, time for another round of bans.

Drought, Deoxys-S, Heracronite, and Thundurus-T are now BL until we get around to retesting them. These bans should be implemented as soon as Joim or Zarel get around to it.

That is all.

 

[Zarel]

fiiiiine.

I need to post a thread about banning pokemon vs stones/abilities though

 

[Ulttimaa]

It's cool and all but I feel the effect of UU beta is that the the
battler ends up kind of dead inside. Everything becomes so
clinical because of bisharp. You can tell from his own team that
the 'magic' of Pokemon is gone. He seems so disenchanted.:(

 

[Turtleye]

It's cool and all but I feel the effect of UU beta is that the the
battler ends up kind of dead inside. Everything becomes so
clinical because of bisharp. You can tell from his own team that
the 'magic' of Pokemon is gone. He seems so disenchanted.:(

While it is true that Bisharp is very good in the meta now, it's not like it runs rampant and is on every team. And besides, bisharp is not exceptionally hard to play around. It's sucker punches can get predictable and you can utilize that to put subs up or inflict it with burn. Dark resists are your biggest friend, as well as WoW and Mega's like Blastoise and Aggron who don't give much shits about Knock Off. Just be careful not to drop his stats so he gets the Defiant boost.

My opinion might be different than yours because I am not in the top tier of players, I'm like jumping between 1100 and 1300

 

[CQC]

Okay, time for another round of bans.

Drought, Deoxys-S, Heracronite, and Thundurus-T are now BL until we get around to retesting them. These bans should be implemented as soon as Joim or Zarel get around to it.

That is all.

Would someone care to elaborate? The first list of bans made perfect sense to me, I already tried Drizzle + Manaphy/Swift Swim in OU and it worked great, while Kyurem-B hit way to hard.

However, this time, none of the things banned are stuff that I perceived as too strong, with the exception of Thundurus-T; I have barely met Drought, Deoxys-S two niches are Suicide-Lead and Lategame-Sweeper, and the first one is a generally difficult niche to maintain right now, while in the latter, he struggles to be able to break through most walls due to his low offensive stats, and he has big problems with priority. Mega-Heracross is very strong, but also very easy to revenge-kill; And even with pure stall teams, I usually were able to deal with him, though he always gave me a headache.

Though I didn't use any of those anyway, so the ban mainly means for me that I have less things to need to be able to counter, which is kind of nice.

 

[Golemman]

I'd be more worried about Psyshock from Gardeovoir, but even so, to only be 4HKOed by Pixilate Hyper Voice from Mega Gardevoir is pretty damn impressive. Mind you that's without a resistance... That's kinda ridiculous the more I think about it haha. Anyway, someone mentioned Machamp on the last page, but it's actually fairly intriguing. Knock Off is a huge buff for it and actually lets it beat down the Ghost-types that were previously full-on stops for it. Unlike the other premier Fighting-types, Medicham and Heracross, it doesn't use up your Mega slot. Anyways, here's a set I've been testing out. Haven't done a lot of battles with it yet, but it's seemed pretty decent:

Machamp (F) @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Substitute / Bullet Punch

So, yeah, this thing can tear holes into stuff. Well, that's nothing new. Machamp has always been pretty good with that. However, there are a couple of buffs that really help it. Knock Off is the main one. No longer can you just fling in a Ghost-type and be safe from any attack, most notably, STAB Dynamic Punch. Thanks to No Guard, Dynamic Punch will always hit and will cause the opponent to only have a 50/50 shot of actually being able to attempt an attack on Machamp. Knock Off deals with Ghost- and Psychic-types that may try to test their luck. Great since it can hit Jellicent, Latias, and Celebi really hard. Poison Jab seems odd, but it's pretty much necessary considering Fairy-types take jack shit from your other two moves. Substitute is a great last move since Machamp can cause many switches due to the fear of its powerful Dynamic Punch. Bullet Punch is another option to keep Machamp from taking unecessary hits and finishing off weakened Fairy-types that may otherwise outspeed and smack Machamp. Leftovers should be used with Substitute so your health doesn't just vanish. If you don't use Leftovers, you can opt for a Lum Berry. Since Lum Berry gives Machamp a free pass on status, there's less of a need for Substitute with it and Bullet Punch should be used. Machamp can be a great wallbreaker for most sweepers that struggle to handle Fairy- or Ghost-type Pokemon. Haxorus, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross are just a few examples of such Pokemon.

I feel special :P
Anyway, I know how much it cuts into bulk but running 160 speed ev's allows you to outspeed florges, umbreon, min bisharp, Jellicent, and their slower friends. These are pretty important, as you can dodge moonblasts and iron heads, and set up subs on toxics and wows. You are left with a mere 100 ev's to put into hp which is very unfortunate, so you have to decide if it's worth it. Also consider stone edge for flyers like zapdos and crobat who can switch in

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Okay, time for another round of bans.

Drought, Deoxys-S, Heracronite, and Thundurus-T are now BL until we get around to retesting them. These bans should be implemented as soon as Joim or Zarel get around to it.

That is all.

fiiiiine.

I need to post a thread about banning pokemon vs stones/abilities though

Out of interest, why is Drought banned instead of Ninetales? I thought an ability would only be banned if it was broken on all Pokemon that could use it. Nobody has been using Vulpix, so we can't know. I would imagine the course of action would've been to ban Ninetales, then play a round with just Vulpix as the Drought user. Then if Vulpix is still suspect, ban Drought overall the following round.

I know it'll all be re-tested more thoroughly later anyway, so it's not the end of the world.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Out of interest, why is Drought banned instead of Ninetales? I thought an ability would only be banned if it was broken on all Pokemon that could use it. Nobody has been using Vulpix, so we can't know. I would imagine the course of action would've been to ban Ninetales, then play a round with just Vulpix as the Drought user. Then if Vulpix is still suspect, ban Drought overall the following round.

I know it'll all be re-tested more thoroughly later anyway, so it's not the end of the world.

Because Flash Fire Ninetales is not ban-worthy.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Because Flash Fire Ninetales is not ban-worthy.

Yes, but every Pokemon can have aspects of it stripped down until it's not ban-worthy. Blaze Blaziken probably isn't ban-worthy either, yet we didn't blanket ban Speed Boost just to keep it in OU. We were right in that situation to ban the Pokemon itself imo. The main issue I have is that it's inconsistent with past bans, and also it's a bit unfair to blanket ban an ability just because it's broken on one Pokemon (although in this case it might be broken with Vulpix too, but we should at least try it imo).

I really don't want to de-rail this thread with this discussion though, but we can discuss more in PM if you want.

 

[kokoloko]

Would someone care to elaborate? The first list of bans made perfect sense to me, I already tried Drizzle + Manaphy/Swift Swim in OU and it worked great, while Kyurem-B hit way to hard.

However, this time, none of the things banned are stuff that I perceived as too strong, with the exception of Thundurus-T; I have barely met Drought, Deoxys-S two niches are Suicide-Lead and Lategame-Sweeper, and the first one is a generally difficult niche to maintain right now, while in the latter, he struggles to be able to break through most walls due to his low offensive stats, and he has big problems with priority. Mega-Heracross is very strong, but also very easy to revenge-kill; And even with pure stall teams, I usually were able to deal with him, though he always gave me a headache.

Though I didn't use any of those anyway, so the ban mainly means for me that I have less things to need to be able to counter, which is kind of nice.

Read the very long post I made regarding how we're going to handle tiering in XY UU and then you'll understand why I'm being so liberal with bans.

Yes, but every Pokemon can have aspects of it stripped down until it's not ban-worthy. Blaze Blaziken probably isn't ban-worthy either, yet we didn't blanket ban Speed Boost just to keep it in OU. We were right in that situation to ban the Pokemon itself imo. The main issue I have is that it's inconsistent with past bans, and also it's a bit unfair to blanket ban an ability just because it's broken on one Pokemon (although in this case it might be broken with Vulpix too, but we should at least try it imo).

I really don't want to de-rail this thread with this discussion though, but we can discuss more in PM if you want.

... and we will, just not now.

Also it has nothing to do with the fact that Flash Fire Ninetales isn't banworthy.

 

[Ernesto]

Way to not wait for me to voice my opinions, koko.

For the record, I'm mostly fine with those bans but now I'm gonna have to rebuild all my Heracross teams :( Just when I thought I'd found the perfect spread for Mega CroCross...

 

[Patrick1088]

With sub mega hera no longer do people think that infiktrator is still the key ability on crobat? Im tempted to just switch back to inner focus at this point...

Also why was it just deoxys-s and not d that got the boot? Im just curious since both are similar in function. Eh maybe froslass will become the new fast spike stacker especially since rock bkast hera is gone...

 

[RotomPoison]

With sub mega hera no longer do people think that infiktrator is still the key ability on crobat? Im tempted to just switch back to inner focus at this point...

Also why was it just deoxys-s and not d that got the boot? Im just curious since both are similar in function. Eh maybe froslass will become the new fast spike stacker especially since rock bkast hera is gone...

Infiltrator is obviously better, a lot of other things can easily run Sub. Deoxys-S has workable offensive stats, as well as Speed to take advantage of it (along with Taunt) and the ability to set up an extra hazard before dying bar priority because it can simply outsoeed anything besides 108+ Scarfers.

 

[CQC]

Read the very long post I made regarding how we're going to handle tiering in XY UU and then you'll understand why I'm being so liberal with bans.
.

OK, I think I didn't explain my train of thought good enough: My question is less along the lines of "why so liberal?" and more "why these pokemon?". There are just other pokemon that stick out rather strongly, for example Latias and Bisharp, and while I personally don't see them banworthy(though I'm still not completely sure about Bisharp), I would have understood perfectly well if they were chosen. From the new list, however, it was Thundurus-T, maybe Heracross that stick out, but Ninetales and Deoxys-S seem decidedly mediocre to me. Though maybe I just didn't play high enough on the ladder, but it would just be nice if someone would - at least shortly - explain what lead to the conclusion that you chose exactly these four pokemon.

 

[Patrick1088]

Infiltrator is obviously better, a lot of other things can easily run Sub. Deoxys-S has workable offensive stats, as well as Speed to take advantage of it (along with Taunt) and the ability to set up an extra hazard before dying bar priority because it can simply outsoeed anything besides 108+ Scarfers.

I guess that is a good poin since sub is more common than flinch users that are locked away in ou (togekiss and jirachi)

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Considering how fast Crobat is, the only time he'd ever get flinched is from Fake Out and Ambipom is pretty much the only good user of it anywhere.

Infiltrator is just better.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I can't say I disagree with any of the most recent bans. Deoxys-S is an Uber worthy pokemon that's not only the best hazard setting lead in the game, but can also go offensive and be nearly impossible to stop. Mega-Heracross had almost no safe switches apart from shit like Eviolite Gligar. No comment on the other two as I didn't use Drought Ninetales/Thundurus-T, nor do I recall seeing many.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I didn't think Heracronite would be banned. I thought with Infiltrator Crobat, Staraptor, stuff like that would poo all over Hera. Can't complain tho, such an ugly ass Mega lol

 

[Caolan]

Not sure about the deoxys-S ban. I think it and defence are another case of pokemon that are a little too good for UU but have a hard time doing their job reliably in OU. Just like kyurem.

 

[666lumberjack]

Not sure about the deoxys-S ban. I think it and defence are another case of pokemon that are a little too good for UU but have a hard time doing their job reliably in OU. Just like kyurem.

That isn't remotely relevant to their UU tiering status.

 

[Caolan]

That isn't remotely relevant to their UU tiering status.

How is it not? Do OU pokemon not get demoted to UU when they're barely being used in OU?

 

[Ununhexium]

How is it not? Do OU pokemon not get demoted to UU when they're barely being used in OU?

what he is trying to say is we have BL. that is the middle land for pokemon that are rarely used in OU but too powerful in UU. Like Kyurem-B rarely sees use in OU but it was too powerful to use in UU