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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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It's been mentioned before but Lati@s do not deserve to be in A+ anymore. A, maybe, but definitely not A+. This new generation has not been kind to them at all. Thanks to the buff in Knock Off and dark moves in general, all sort of nasty dark moves lay waste to Lati@s. In addition to dark moves being buffed, they suffer from the newly introduced fairy pokemon. Sure, there may only be a few fairy pokemon in OU, but their arrival into the meta-game has done Lati@s no favors. More so, the nerf to Hidden Power also hit them bad, Lati@s really does like that additional coverage granted from Hidden power. What did they gain in this generation? For me, their biggest gain would be their niche as an offensive defogger, which admittedly is a solid niche, but not enough to keep them in A+. I nominate Lati@s for A rank. They still have a great speed and Sp.Atk stat, along with some interesting support moves like Trick, Defog, and Recover. However, their typing was a bit of a liability last generation and their typing only became a bigger liability, being weak to the ever common U-turn and knock off.
Charizard-Y should be in A+, with it's fellow mega-evolution Charizard-X. Charizard-X may be the best dragon dancer in OU, but then Charizard-Y may be the best fire nuke in OU. With a base Sp.atk of 159 and a drought boost, I cannot think of ANY OU pokemon that isn't 2HKO by Charizard-Y's Fire Blast unless they resist it or are flat out immune to fire. For those pesky water types, Charizard-Y has access to solarbeam, which works perfectly with drought. And while he has a massive 159 sp.atk stat, his atk stat of 104 is definitely passable, allowing him to even run a mixed set. Pesky Heatran ruining your day? Hit it with an Earthquake.
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 256-304 (66.3 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even with no atk investments and a negative nature, Charizard-Y still 2HKO specially defensive Heatran.
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Physically defensive Heatran doesn't do much better. As long as Charizard-Y has a neutral attack nature, he's almost guaranteed a 2HKO. And this is all assuming rocks or spikes aren't up. If they are, it'll be an easy 2HKO all the time.
I don't get exactly what makes Charizard-X better than Charizard-Y. Granted, they do different things, but they're both one of the best at what they do. For Charizard-X, that would be dragon dance sweeping. For Charizard-Y, that would be wallbreaking.
Chansey is many things, but A rank isn't one of them. Easily THE best special wall in the game, Chansey could also make for a mean mixed wall. He's really good at soaking up attacks... and that's it. Chansey is set-up fodder. Yeah, he can try hitting something with Seismic Toss, but that's pretty much his only form of offense. Ghost pokemon would have a field day with Chansey. Maybe Chansey can also paralyze them? Not like Aegislash would really care. And something like Gengar would just set-up a sub right up in its face. The support that Chansey grants to her team is undoubtedly great, passing massive wishes or being the team cleric with heal bell. Heck, Chansey can even be the SR setter. However, it's extremely clear that if Chansey packs an attack, the only attack it would have is Seismic Toss, which would deal a flat amount of damage. Chansey's offensive stats are absolutely abysmal with a low speed, making it unlikely to outspeed anything. Taunt makes Chansey almost all, but completely helpless. It actually somewhat baffles me that something like Skarmory (probably the best physically defensive wall in the game) is ranked lower than Chansey. Skarmory may not be particularly strong, but at least it's not as much of a set-up fodder as Chansey. Also, if Skarmory loses his item, he's not hurt as bad as Chansey. If poor Chansey loses his evolite, he becomes inferior to Blissey in every matter. I nominate Chansey for B+ rank.
Charizard-Y should be in A+, with it's fellow mega-evolution Charizard-X. Charizard-X may be the best dragon dancer in OU, but then Charizard-Y may be the best fire nuke in OU. With a base Sp.atk of 159 and a drought boost, I cannot think of ANY OU pokemon that isn't 2HKO by Charizard-Y's Fire Blast unless they resist it or are flat out immune to fire. For those pesky water types, Charizard-Y has access to solarbeam, which works perfectly with drought. And while he has a massive 159 sp.atk stat, his atk stat of 104 is definitely passable, allowing him to even run a mixed set. Pesky Heatran ruining your day? Hit it with an Earthquake.
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 256-304 (66.3 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even with no atk investments and a negative nature, Charizard-Y still 2HKO specially defensive Heatran.
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Physically defensive Heatran doesn't do much better. As long as Charizard-Y has a neutral attack nature, he's almost guaranteed a 2HKO. And this is all assuming rocks or spikes aren't up. If they are, it'll be an easy 2HKO all the time.
I don't get exactly what makes Charizard-X better than Charizard-Y. Granted, they do different things, but they're both one of the best at what they do. For Charizard-X, that would be dragon dance sweeping. For Charizard-Y, that would be wallbreaking.
Chansey is many things, but A rank isn't one of them. Easily THE best special wall in the game, Chansey could also make for a mean mixed wall. He's really good at soaking up attacks... and that's it. Chansey is set-up fodder. Yeah, he can try hitting something with Seismic Toss, but that's pretty much his only form of offense. Ghost pokemon would have a field day with Chansey. Maybe Chansey can also paralyze them? Not like Aegislash would really care. And something like Gengar would just set-up a sub right up in its face. The support that Chansey grants to her team is undoubtedly great, passing massive wishes or being the team cleric with heal bell. Heck, Chansey can even be the SR setter. However, it's extremely clear that if Chansey packs an attack, the only attack it would have is Seismic Toss, which would deal a flat amount of damage. Chansey's offensive stats are absolutely abysmal with a low speed, making it unlikely to outspeed anything. Taunt makes Chansey almost all, but completely helpless. It actually somewhat baffles me that something like Skarmory (probably the best physically defensive wall in the game) is ranked lower than Chansey. Skarmory may not be particularly strong, but at least it's not as much of a set-up fodder as Chansey. Also, if Skarmory loses his item, he's not hurt as bad as Chansey. If poor Chansey loses his evolite, he becomes inferior to Blissey in every matter. I nominate Chansey for B+ rank.
Deoxys IS rivalled by other hazard setters, because with priority everywhere it's previously flawless speed is now compromised. Your opponent leads with Mamoswine, now what? Set up SR and die to EQ+Ice shard? Switch out and potentially have SR set up on YOU, and lose momentum right away? Taunt and do absolutely nothing if Mamo EQs? Even worse, what about Thundurus and Sableye and their priority Taunts? Those are niche examples, but you get my point- Deoxys being far and away the best suicide lead is tied to being a suicide lead in a meta where such a role has lost much of it's effectiveness. I think ferrothorn can boast the ability to set up SR and multiple hazards just like deoxys- but it can set up multiple times in a match, provided you don't play stupid, and Ferro even has some offensive presence. And since when did Genesect and Lucario become part of this discussion? We're talking about Rotom's ability to create free turns and support it's team with deoxys as a comparison, not who has the greater damage potential. Venusaur can't hit as hard as Luke either. Venusaur is S because it's the best at what it does, we should be talking about Rotom with what IT does best in mind, which is act as a bulky support pivot and general check/counter to many threats.
But now we're getting off the point: Rotom-W, S-Rank or not. Comparing Rotom-W to other S-Ranks is a dubious idea at best, because it doesn't rival any of them. It can't be compared to Megaluke because it isn't a sweeper. It can't be compared to Aegislash because it isn't a wallbreaker/nuke. It can't be compared to Venusaur because it isn't a pure wall. It can't be compared to Deoxys (in most cases...) because it doesn't set up hazards. It's best comparison is Genesect, which is a pivot, but even then the relation is shaky. Genesect is an offensive pivot with little bulk. Rotom is a bulky support pivot- the absolute best pokemon for this job, bar none. Rotom can come in and do it's job with little opportunity cost, is far from setup bait, provides team support with WoW+Volt Switch+It's typing, requires very little support for itself, has no rivals, it manages to check/counter half the metagame. It's the omnitool of OU, Gen 6's Jirachi. Venusaur is a better wall, genesect does more damage. Can either of those S-ranks provide the amount of team support Rotom can? No. Venu has 2 support options at best and severe 4MSS, so is unlikely to be running Sleep Powder+Leech Seed, and neither of those has the longevity of Burn. Genesect has one, U-Turn.
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Little opportunity cost? Check. Can perform multiple roles? The support set, offensive sets, and choice sets are all viable and all seen. Flaws outweighed by strengths? What flaws? It can't 6-0 a team by itself? It has one type weakness, one that you will probably have multiple resists for on your team without even trying. It's very difficult to set up on due to Volt Switch and WoW (or Thunder Wave, that's seen too). It has no recovery. That's it's only weakness, one partially mitigated by ChestoResto or Pain Split off of base 50 HP. That one flaw, it might die during the match, in return for status, decent damage output, ability to net you numerous free turns and lots of momentum with Volt Switch, and the ability to threaten just about every physically based pokemon in the metagame just like in Gen V. It may not wall half the metagame, but it checks more than that. I confess, I wasn't sure about Rotom being S-Rank not too long ago with it's silly design and average stats and lack of any game-changing qualities. But it's usability, versatility, and Smashbros' drawing me into an argument on Rotom's side when all I said was that Rotom DID create setup opportunities has won me over. Very quickly.
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I'd actually go far as to say Lati@s is B+/B material. I'd never consider either for a team. Both are trapped so easily by TTar (now with Assault Vest or Mega Evo to ensure they can't do ANYTHING to it) and hate the rain of Genesect / Scizor / Talonflame / Greninja / etc. U-turns. The fact that Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and Shadow Sneak are everywhere are just the nail in the coffin. Oh and if all of that wasn't enough... Fairies...
Hell, they even LOSE one-on-one against the best Fighting types in the meta (Luke and Conk).
Of course they're not totally useless but... I'm just saying I'd never bother considering either for one of my teams. :/
Hell, they even LOSE one-on-one against the best Fighting types in the meta (Luke and Conk).
Of course they're not totally useless but... I'm just saying I'd never bother considering either for one of my teams. :/
I find Rotom-W to have a similiar issue with Talonflame: if you don't have appropriate checks for it, it can really harass / do a number to your team, but if you have one solid check / counter to it, suddenly the amount of damage it can do to you is significantly lessened.
I'ma just name some good Rotom-W switch-ins off the top of my head: Venusaur, Goodra, LumHarvest Trevenant, Lati@s, Roost Hydreigon, Chansey, Sylveon, Clefable, Mega Ampharos, AV Conkeldurr, Roserade, and Shaymin (gonna steer clear from stuff like Gastro and Lanturn). There are also Pokemon that can take advantage of Rotom-W, like Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn (they dislike being burned) and the aforementioned Grass-types and clerics.
Now here we can see there are things that can clearly check Rotom-W if they wanted to, but Rotom-W can havea Trick up its sleeve, which would screw up a good majority of these responses. Trick Rotom-W, however, would need timing if it wants to maintain its usefulness and survivability, as Ground-types, especially Excadrill, do tend to switch in if it wants to scout for Volt Switch and / or Chesto Berry / Choice Scarf, not to mention it sacrifices a bit of its defensive potential which is what allows it to check threats in the first place, which is probably why you don't often see Trick in the equation too often.
That said, as Chou Toshio has said, Volt Switch for Rotom-W is not just for prediction: it is a very risk-free move since the only common opponents that can prevent Rotom-W from escaping will be beaten by Hydro Pump / Will-O-Wisp one-on-one, and it nets solid damage too. This, combined with its good hazard resistance, makes it the best Volt Switch user in OU, like how Genesect is the best U-turner we have (trades hazard resistance for offensive potential). The main problem(s) I find with Rotom-W is: either Rotom-W doesn't outlast the Volt Switch sponge the opponent has (often since they have reliable recovery and Rotom-W doesn't), or it doesn't manage to stop more than one of the opponent's threats at a time (since going kamikaze to weaken / cripple Rotom-W is a thing people do). Both of these instances point toward Rotom-W's lack of reliable recovery, which would greatly alleviate these problems. But if Rotom-W currently self-sufficent enough to make it into S?
I still see it as A+ material (not at best, mind you), but if the meta finally manages to settle down and split S into High-, Mid-, and Low- (like in NU and RU), I'd put Rotom-W in Low-S and be done with it. Granted, that'll take a while, but if this keeps up it'll be like the Jirachi debate of B2W2 OU all over again.
I'ma just name some good Rotom-W switch-ins off the top of my head: Venusaur, Goodra, LumHarvest Trevenant, Lati@s, Roost Hydreigon, Chansey, Sylveon, Clefable, Mega Ampharos, AV Conkeldurr, Roserade, and Shaymin (gonna steer clear from stuff like Gastro and Lanturn). There are also Pokemon that can take advantage of Rotom-W, like Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn (they dislike being burned) and the aforementioned Grass-types and clerics.
Now here we can see there are things that can clearly check Rotom-W if they wanted to, but Rotom-W can have
That said, as Chou Toshio has said, Volt Switch for Rotom-W is not just for prediction: it is a very risk-free move since the only common opponents that can prevent Rotom-W from escaping will be beaten by Hydro Pump / Will-O-Wisp one-on-one, and it nets solid damage too. This, combined with its good hazard resistance, makes it the best Volt Switch user in OU, like how Genesect is the best U-turner we have (trades hazard resistance for offensive potential). The main problem(s) I find with Rotom-W is: either Rotom-W doesn't outlast the Volt Switch sponge the opponent has (often since they have reliable recovery and Rotom-W doesn't), or it doesn't manage to stop more than one of the opponent's threats at a time (since going kamikaze to weaken / cripple Rotom-W is a thing people do). Both of these instances point toward Rotom-W's lack of reliable recovery, which would greatly alleviate these problems. But if Rotom-W currently self-sufficent enough to make it into S?
I still see it as A+ material (not at best, mind you), but if the meta finally manages to settle down and split S into High-, Mid-, and Low- (like in NU and RU), I'd put Rotom-W in Low-S and be done with it. Granted, that'll take a while, but if this keeps up it'll be like the Jirachi debate of B2W2 OU all over again.
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The problem with these "checks/counters" is that Rotom-W would typically just Volt Switch on their faces. When I use Rotom-W, I almost always go for Volt Switch, making the prospect of my enemy switching into Rotom-W's counter a non-issue for me.
why are we still arguing over rotom w?
for the most part everything i want to say about rotom w has already been said by Chou Toshio. I completely agree with him in his/her rotom w arguments. (But i think B for the Lati twins is a stupid idea) Rotom W is so great, and its no suprize its used alot. Unlike most pokemon, Rotom W different sets can actully shut down its previos cheaks. EXAMP: As said above, Rotom W hates dealing with like sylveon and normally has to VS but can deal with it with a trick set. The only other pokemon i know do this are Charizard megas and Lucario Mega.
Rotom W alsois very versitile, it can wall/shut down a fairly decent amount of the meta, it can pretty much be slapped on any team with litte to no support and creates alot of free turns for its team via volt switch while also minimising the amount of free turns the opposing team gets. I do think Rotom W should indeed be S ranked (But not suspected, that was 1 thing i disagreed with Chou Tioshio on.)
for the most part everything i want to say about rotom w has already been said by Chou Toshio. I completely agree with him in his/her rotom w arguments. (But i think B for the Lati twins is a stupid idea) Rotom W is so great, and its no suprize its used alot. Unlike most pokemon, Rotom W different sets can actully shut down its previos cheaks. EXAMP: As said above, Rotom W hates dealing with like sylveon and normally has to VS but can deal with it with a trick set. The only other pokemon i know do this are Charizard megas and Lucario Mega.
Rotom W alsois very versitile, it can wall/shut down a fairly decent amount of the meta, it can pretty much be slapped on any team with litte to no support and creates alot of free turns for its team via volt switch while also minimising the amount of free turns the opposing team gets. I do think Rotom W should indeed be S ranked (But not suspected, that was 1 thing i disagreed with Chou Tioshio on.)
I said that I wouldn't mind seeing it tested, not that I wanted to see it tested.
Oh ok, i misread that. I really would get annoyed if it got tested...
Still cant think of any more pokemon to nominate. Atm im happy to continue to support Rotom W for S rank, but i wouldnt mind a diferent disscusion as well.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
?
Life orb Latios psyshock will always ohko 4/0 conkeldurr (which is becoming pretty common now that people are starting to realize that 252 Atk / 252 sp. Atk is a much more efficient spread) and has a good chance to ohko 252/0 conkeldurr anyway after hazards. They may have taken some hits but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Latios, at least, shouldn't be losing to conkeldurr.
I think you mean 252 Atk/252SpDef. I have no idea why Conk would run 252 SpAtk, lol.
Late to this party but I generally support Lati@s' lowering to A. They're some of the best defoggers in the metagame and still hit hard. However, they're forced out, walled, or threatened by too much right now to be the threats they were in Gen V. Gen VI brought almost nothing but nerfs to the jet planes, what with Knock Off, Mold Breaker Excadrill, Aegislash, and the fact many pokemon are running Dark and Ghost moves with which to hit Aegislash. Tyranitar has also been nerfed but the metagame shift has favored him, so he's just as prevalent as before.
Don't you mean Sp.Def?
Having tried lanturn in a joke team with a specs set, I personally think he does the job as a rotom-w switch-in and works acceptably as a slow volt-switcher. Does more things than gastro can anyhow.
Why are people being so stingy with S rank?
Where in the OP does it say that everyone in the thread must agree that any S-ranked mon has to be flawless/perfect, and a horrifically powerful attacker? The MegaSaur furore was ridiculous. It was as though people were getting offended by Venusaur being in S rank. It's okay to be a little lenient people, jeez.
Where in the OP does it say that everyone in the thread must agree that any S-ranked mon has to be flawless/perfect, and a horrifically powerful attacker? The MegaSaur furore was ridiculous. It was as though people were getting offended by Venusaur being in S rank. It's okay to be a little lenient people, jeez.
I'd guess it's the line suggesting that S-ranks are the pokes that would likely be suspect tested, giving people the mentality that something has to be potentially ban-worthy to be S rank. I can't see Rotom-W ever being banned from OU or even suspect tested, but it's a clear candidate for S rank for reasons that have been covered plenty over the last couple pages. Hell I automatically assumed it was in S until this discussion started up.
I don't think "reliable" recovery would make Rotom-W any better. Just look at Poison Heal Gliscor. People were hyped on using it with roost before it was legal, however, SubProtect proved to be more reliable after all. I am not trying to say Rotom is similar in terms of recovery to Rotom-W but rather that reliable recovery would just limit the sets people want to use, hiding the true potential of Rotom-W.
In a metagame full of powerful physical attackers, Rotom can tank hits, thanks to WoW, well enough or gain momentum thanks to Volt Switch. With the special move nerf, there is barely any pokemon that could one shot Rotom-W that easiely, unless it is super effective.
In a metagame full of powerful physical attackers, Rotom can tank hits, thanks to WoW, well enough or gain momentum thanks to Volt Switch. With the special move nerf, there is barely any pokemon that could one shot Rotom-W that easiely, unless it is super effective.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
A reliable recovery move would make Rotom-W much better than it is now. Pain Split and Chesto Rest aren't exactly the best forms of recovery yet they are staple moves on Rotom-Ws defensive sets simply because being able to get back Health is incredibly valuable for a defensive Pokemon. Nobody used Roost on Gliscor in Gen5 because Sub/Protect worked much better to Toxic Stall opponents and having double lefties recovery was usually enough healing for Gliscor.
I wouldn't understand if it get suspect tested. It's a great mon that's on damn near every other team and it's really irritating (I just can't stand its fucking vibrating sprite,) but it has about no capacity to sweeps teams by itself. It has a ton of counters, as in pretty much any offensive grass type, especially those that don't mind/can heal burns [e.g. special attacker, natural cure, heal bell, Toxic Orb Breloom] and don't really care about getting scarfed/have their own choice item or even Black Sludge.
And even if you don't have anything that can specifically counter Rotom-W, you're still not likely to lose just because of it. Really, of any S or A rank Lucarionite should get suspect tested.
Reliable recovery would absolutely make Rotom better. Poison heal puts gliscor's recovery in à different league.
I still don't agree with Rotom being S.
It won't make it for walling ability, because as great as its typing is, lack of good recovery is a deal breaker there. this isn't stingy, it's the difference between being 3hko'd and never being ko'd against many Pokemon.
Support, maybe. I agree that the wow and volt switch combo is scary, and as such creates free turns relatively easily, but I'm not sure if this ability is strong enough to mitigate its predictability, because that combo is always the core of Rotom, plus hydro pump, seriously limiting the number of sets it can run.
I still don't agree with Rotom being S.
It won't make it for walling ability, because as great as its typing is, lack of good recovery is a deal breaker there. this isn't stingy, it's the difference between being 3hko'd and never being ko'd against many Pokemon.
Support, maybe. I agree that the wow and volt switch combo is scary, and as such creates free turns relatively easily, but I'm not sure if this ability is strong enough to mitigate its predictability, because that combo is always the core of Rotom, plus hydro pump, seriously limiting the number of sets it can run.
Rotom-W isn't a wall, it's a pivot. It doesn't wall opponents, it checks them, and does so effectively because it has the bulk to do so. Your mon might be able to 3HKO Rotom-W, but in return is OHKOed by Hydro Pump, or burnt and rendered useless for the rest of the match.
Rotom-W's three move trifecta in Hydro Pump, WoW, and Volt Switch threatens a lot of mons. This causes switches, which allow Rotom-W to abuse Volt Switch. This is part of what makes Rotom-W so effective, and so annoying to deal with - it turns certain mons into liabilities. You switch your mon in, and BOOM! In comes Rotom-W to force you out or KO, then grab momentum with Volt Switch. This allows it to avoid taking hits, and preserves its bulk. Rotom-W can basically turn a bad switchin into free momentum.
Another notable thing about Rotom-W is Volt Switch. The fact that this is Rotom-W's main STAB move is immensely good. For most mons, your line of thought is "Hmm, do I use a powerful STAB move to hit the opponent hard / hit something hard with neutral coverage, or predict a switch and use U-turn?" Rotom-W doesn't have to do this because its main STAB move IS U-turn/Volt Switch. Electric STAB is great, and being able to spam it as a powerful STAB move without the risk of giving your opponent free turns (Ground-types natch) is an incredible advantage.
These qualities definitely make it S rank, IMO. It's different to all of the other current S rank mons, but that's the point; we shouldn't be comparing them to each other. The only other S ranker that could be considered a bulky pivot is Aegislash, whose role is completely different to that of Rotom-W. The washing machine should be S rank because it's the best bulky pivot in OU.
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Can somebody tell me what Chansey is doing in A Rank? While it has insane special bulk, the Knock Off buff was a real bummer for it, along with Trick to some extent, so it's pretty easy to remove its precious Eviolite, hence strapping off some of its valuable bulk. Not to mention, it doesn't even do that well against most special attackers; Genesect and Greninja carry U-turn a lot so they can just nab some momentum off of Chansey, Keldeo has Secret Sword, Goodra has Dragon Tail to force Chansey out, Rotom-W can use Volt Switch, Lucario can hit it hard with FIghting STAB, etc. I think you should get it by now. It doesn't even do that well because most strong special attackers have some way around Chansey. It also still lacks offensive presence so it can be large setup fodder for many Pokemon, and doesn't handle many of the top threats. There's also all the B Rank stuff like Scolipede, Infernape, and mega Heracross down there that can still do well against it. I know this has been brought up before, but I for one question what Chansey is doing so high in A Rank. In my opinion, it's very hard for Chansey to do well in OU so it should not be anywhere near A Rank. B Rank maybe, if not worse.
I strongly disagree about Chansey. You're not switching Chansey in on Knock Off or Trick, to get that out of the way. Genesect never beats Chansey 1 vs 1, it can predict it with U-turn but that applies to every special wall. I would even say Chansey does better than other special walls out there in such a scenario:
+1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 214-253 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO
That's the best thing non-banded physically based Genesect can do, with an Atk boost. You're not staying in against Keldeo either, it's a wallbreaker for a reason. Goodra don't run Dragon Tail often, even then it does pitiful damage. Lucario? Seriously?
Questionable arguments here and there. I've used Chansey extensively in BW and XY OU and it performs great all the time, not only as a special wall, but as a pivot, Cleric, status absorber and Wish supporter. It's definitely worthy of at least A rank, if not higher.
+1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 214-253 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO
That's the best thing non-banded physically based Genesect can do, with an Atk boost. You're not staying in against Keldeo either, it's a wallbreaker for a reason. Goodra don't run Dragon Tail often, even then it does pitiful damage. Lucario? Seriously?
Questionable arguments here and there. I've used Chansey extensively in BW and XY OU and it performs great all the time, not only as a special wall, but as a pivot, Cleric, status absorber and Wish supporter. It's definitely worthy of at least A rank, if not higher.
I agree. Chansey should be D rank, if anything. Knock Off has made Blissey the superior choice this gen. The ability to use damaging moves and Leftovers has always made Blissey better, IMO.
Chansey has no offensive presence, does nothing but provide cleric support, and is setup fodder for an inexcusable number of OU mons. I've never understood the Chansey hype. It's just a big dead weight most of the time, and has no place outside stall teams.
Chansey is completely overshadowed by Blissey and Sylveon IMO. Shouldn't be in OU, shouldn't get an analysis, and shouldn't be ranked at all, TBH. With Knock Off everywhere, the risk is just too high, and can actually prevent Chansey from walling some mons safely.
Chansey has no offensive presence, does nothing but provide cleric support, and is setup fodder for an inexcusable number of OU mons. I've never understood the Chansey hype. It's just a big dead weight most of the time, and has no place outside stall teams.
Chansey is completely overshadowed by Blissey and Sylveon IMO. Shouldn't be in OU, shouldn't get an analysis, and shouldn't be ranked at all, TBH. With Knock Off everywhere, the risk is just too high, and can actually prevent Chansey from walling some mons safely.
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My days are over
I going to be really blunt.
Chansey is no where near A-Rank proficiency. Just no.
The prominence of Ghost Types (Aegislash, Gengar, Trevenant), the buff and popularity of Knock Off, and the fact that Chansey literally screams "set-up on me please" are factors that are serious detriments to Chansey as a Pokemon. No way is this thing staying in A-Rank, let alone OU for long (in my opinion).
TBH, Blissey does everything Chansey does and more without being complete set-up fodder thanks to the fact that she can run some attacking moves (Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower).
Chansey tanks physical moves better but then again, you shouldn't be having a showdown with Conkeldurr using your Chansey in the first place.
How is Chansey a great pivot? Sylveon is probably the better pivot as it can do cleric, wish support and status absorbing to the same extent. And it's mono-fairy type with Pixelate.
The extent of Chansey I've seen is one and I've never used it. In the one battle I did see it, I hit it with a Knock Off and that pretty much ended it. Knock Off is too prevalent for Chansey to ever do its job. Ever. I'd take Blissey over it any day if I wanted a normal type wall.
Edit: There's no Noivern yet so
Nominating Noivern for C+ rank
Anyone arguing this thing is an attacker has no idea.
He's the definition of a scout. He's significantly faster than almost all the metagame, but his attacking stats leave a lot to be desired. He's only got decent natural bulk (85/80/80) so he isn't get OHKO'd by everything at full health but he's getting 2HKO'd by most. He's weak to Stealth Rock, but realistically that's way too easy to keep off the field, and he only has decent attacking stats that force him to rely on inaccurate moves such as Draco Meteor, Hurricane, and Focus Blast. He's by no means anything higher than C+, but he's easily got a niche in being the fastest Dragon type in the game and has the ability Frisk. Frisk consistently keeps you one step ahead of the opponent, giving you information on the opponent's item you previously didn't know. For Pokemon that are extremely versatile or if there are more than one Pokemon that can mega evolve on the other team, it's almost invaluable. He's no where near an extreme threat, but what little he brings to the table can help immensely.
Edit: There's no Noivern yet so
Nominating Noivern for C+ rank
Anyone arguing this thing is an attacker has no idea.
He's the definition of a scout. He's significantly faster than almost all the metagame, but his attacking stats leave a lot to be desired. He's only got decent natural bulk (85/80/80) so he isn't get OHKO'd by everything at full health but he's getting 2HKO'd by most. He's weak to Stealth Rock, but realistically that's way too easy to keep off the field, and he only has decent attacking stats that force him to rely on inaccurate moves such as Draco Meteor, Hurricane, and Focus Blast. He's by no means anything higher than C+, but he's easily got a niche in being the fastest Dragon type in the game and has the ability Frisk. Frisk consistently keeps you one step ahead of the opponent, giving you information on the opponent's item you previously didn't know. For Pokemon that are extremely versatile or if there are more than one Pokemon that can mega evolve on the other team, it's almost invaluable. He's no where near an extreme threat, but what little he brings to the table can help immensely.
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