Move Knock Off

Status
Not open for further replies.

UnicornDemon

Banned deucer.
Is there any downside at all to spamming this move constantly in battle? Even if your opponent sends out a counter to whatever Pokemon you have spamming Knock Off, that counter is going to lose their held item and be crippled the rest of the match. The only way to counter Knock Off spam is too send out Terrakion, physical Lucario, or Cobalion, and even each of these will be hurt by item loss for the rest of the match despite a temporary boost in attack.
 
Is there any downside at all to spamming this move constantly in battle? Even if your opponent sends out a counter to whatever Pokemon you have spamming Knock Off, that counter is going to lose their held item and be crippled the rest of the match. The only way to counter Knock Off spam is too send out Terrakion, physical Lucario, or Cobalion, and even each of these will be hurt by item loss for the rest of the match despite a temporary boost in attack.
Physical Mega Luke might just be the only thing that won't mind switching into Knock Off.
 

Expulso

Morse code, if I'm talking I'm clicking
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Doesn't Hawlucha have that Power Herb Sky Attack + Acrobatics set? That could be a good switch-in to Knock Off, as it resists the move and can either spam Acros when it is Knocked Off, or have used it up already.
 

Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Is there any downside at all to spamming this move constantly in battle? Even if your opponent sends out a counter to whatever Pokemon you have spamming Knock Off, that counter is going to lose their held item and be crippled the rest of the match. The only way to counter Knock Off spam is too send out Terrakion, physical Lucario, or Cobalion, and even each of these will be hurt by item loss for the rest of the match despite a temporary boost in attack.
A novel way would be to use Trick/Switcheroo and bait the opponent into losing their own item. The amount of things that can tank a Knock Off and pull this off is unfortunately sparse though, Whimsicott is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. Things with Toxic/Flame Orb also do not mind losing their item after getting their respective status and generally take Knock Off well; for instance, Poison Heal Gliscor & Breloom or any of the myriad of Fighting types with Guts. It's a shame Sticky Hold has a sparse distribution, I mean Gastrodon gets it but no way is Knock Off bad enough to warrant giving up Storm Drain for it. But yeah there's also the already discussed Megas, Unburden, Acrobatics and Justified mons.
 
Might be a bit OTT but I really dislike knock off in the metagame. It seems to be used purely as a spam move in most cases with no need for any predictions. The BP increase is unreal. Boy did it supe up Conk though... No Aegislash you may not switch in.
 
Physical Mega Luke might just be the only thing that won't mind switching into Knock Off.
Mawile w/ Mawilite couldn't care about a knock off.

Before M-Evo:
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 31-37 (10.1 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO

After M-Evo:
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 34-40 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
 
Mawile w/ Mawilite couldn't care about a knock off.

Before M-Evo:
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 31-37 (10.1 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO

After M-Evo:
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 34-40 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
The same applies for loads of Megas, the problem is just how many Pokes gain access to Knock Off. Unless you have a mega that's able to deal with the Poke perfectly, you can't really switch anything in safely. Sure Mega Mawile can take it but I've seen people run Knock Off Venusaur, Krook, Landorus AND Mamoswine in OU. Wait for that EQ breh...
 
Might be a bit OTT but I really dislike knock off in the metagame. It seems to be used purely as a spam move in most cases with no need for any predictions. The BP increase is unreal. Boy did it supe up Conk though... No Aegislash you may not switch in.
I have to chime in Knock Off is probably the closest thing to a completely broken move this Gen between the buff to Dark offensively, it's power and how game breaking items are and the sheer bulkiness of some of the best abusers. It's like the Stealth Rock of Gen 4 where there is virtually no feasible way to deal with it besides a very exclusive select few Pokemon whilst the payoffs are completely tremendous or Scald in Gen 5.
 
Might be a bit OTT but I really dislike knock off in the metagame. It seems to be used purely as a spam move in most cases with no need for any predictions. The BP increase is unreal. Boy did it supe up Conk though... No Aegislash you may not switch in.
Knock Off is a move fighting types have been waiting for years to be able to his ghosts reliably. I think fighting types deserved this, especially with the introduction of fairies and Talonflame.
 
Knock Off is a move fighting types have been waiting for years to be able to his ghosts reliably. I think fighting types deserved this, especially with the introduction of fairies and Talonflame.
Imo the BP increase was too steep. It's close to a 100 BP move now with a held item on the opposing Poke. That's CRAZY. Especially as most fighting types boast high Attack stats and don't particularly need high BP coverage moves (take the punches and fangs for example). HJK and Dynamic Punch are exceptions but HJK comes with that miss risk and DP suffers from 50% accuracy which makes it far less viable on most Pokes. A 95+ BP coverage move on already very strong fighting types seems a little OP to me, ESPECIALLY when it can completely cripple a number of well-thought-out threats in one hit AND when it's available on a massive percentage of Pokemon. Personal opinions, but worth considering nonetheless.

EDIT: Plus, one of the Ghost-types most coveted traits was that it had double immunity and could cripple strong physical attackers who simply tried to spam STAB from a high Atk stat. Not only is this now compromised but Psychic types can also be maimed by fighting types. Seems to throw type balances out the window a little bit, especially when Psychic types often rely on their items fairly heavily.
 
If I had to say one thing though, Knock Off was the biggest "f*ck you" to eviolite-Pokemon. Take Chansey for example. Considering the popularity of Knock Off, Chansey might become pretty much obsolete once again.
But the problem here is you would have used Knock Off last gen even when it had utterly pathetic power simply because the utility of disarming your opponents item was so huge and now it retains that effect and has more power than the average high power coverage move. I sure as hell always had Knock Off in the wings just for the occasional Chansey but more so because it rendered all those Choice and Leftie users into liabilities.

Honestly I dread the moment more people start remembering things like Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Donphan also get Knock Off. With the way those things tend to be played and how long they last they could literally disarm two thirds of your team unless you keep making the same switch in over and over again which would get predictable.

Mandibuzz is already bad enough that it's pretty much near impossible to OHKO it and Gliscor is seeing somewhat of a comeback now that Rain teams were balanced and has the benefit of being one of those Knock Off counters.

I actually think that as Gen 6 goes on you are eventually going to see most of OU consisting of things that function without their item or actually aren't affected by Knock Off whilst being powerful in their own right. Much like how most of Gen 4/5's OU consisted of stuff which generally didn't mind Stealth Rock.

That or you're going to see a lot more Substitute in which case start breaking out the Crobat's and Chandelures.

Knock Off is a move fighting types have been waiting for years to be able to his ghosts reliably. I think fighting types deserved this, especially with the introduction of fairies and Talonflame.
They didn't deserve shit.

The point isn't about what type deserved it or not, it's that Knock Off is ridiculously strong, permanently cripples or kills an opponent and hits virtually everything in the game. Even if Knock Off didn't exist most good fighting types would find other ways round with their usually high coverage movepools.
 
Last edited:
But the problem here is you would have used Knock Off last gen even when it had utterly pathetic power simply because the utility of disarming your opponents item was so huge and now it retains that effect and has more power than the average high power coverage move. I sure as hell always had Knock Off in the wings just for the occasional Chansey but more so because it rendered all those Choice and Leftie users into liabilities.

Honestly I dread the moment more people start remembering things like Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Donphan also get Knock Off. With the way those things tend to be played and how long they last they could literally disarm two thirds of your team unless you keep making the same switch in over and over again which would get predictable.

Mandibuzz is already bad enough that it's pretty much near impossible to OHKO it and Gliscor is seeing somewhat of a comeback now that Rain teams were balanced and has the benefit of being one of those Knock Off counters.

I actually think that as Gen 6 goes on you are eventually going to see most of OU consisting of things that function without their item or actually aren't affected by Knock Off whilst being powerful in their own right. Much like how most of Gen 4/5's OU consisted of stuff which generally didn't mind Stealth Rock.

That or you're going to see a lot more Substitute in which case start breaking out the Crobat's and Chandelures.


They didn't deserve shit.

The point isn't about what type deserved it or not, it's that Knock Off is ridiculously strong, permanently cripples or kills an opponent and hits virtually everything in the game. Even if Knock Off didn't exist most good fighting types would find other ways round with their usually high coverage movepools.
I agree with most of the post , knock off is a great move but not that good to effect the metagame as much as stealth rock last gen, it has limited distribution and its easily resisted by common pokemon plus many teams pack mega pokemon that cant get their stones knocked and can stomach a knock off , megas like luk , defensive venau , mawile and others.
 
I actually think that as Gen 6 goes on you are eventually going to see most of OU consisting of things that function without their item or actually aren't affected by Knock Off whilst being powerful in their own right. Much like how most of Gen 4/5's OU consisted of stuff which generally didn't mind Stealth Rock.
This is something that really worries me. Remember back in Gen IV when stealth rock was just being discovered? There were huge complaints about how SR single-handedly wiped decent pokemon off the map (Yanmega, for one). People were pretty upset at how one move completely changed the metagame. Notice that if you read a lot of OU analyses for UU/RU pokemon, one of the biggest things that gets cited is a SR weakness. At one point, people seriously considered banning the move.

Was SR good? Was it bad? I really don't know. All I know is that is profoundly changed the way people played the game. It also was a huge factor in tiering. However, in the end, we decided that as radical as it was, it didn't actually make the game too over-centralized. We could still have a strategic and fun tier with Stealth Rock.

Given the increased usage of Knock Off, I think we've found the next Stealth Rock.
 
Knock Off was one of my favorite Utility moves in Gen V even though nearly no one used it. This buff... definitely has to be one of my favorite buffs in this generation by far. Also, to feel like I'm contributing something to this thread, has anyone noted the fact Sableye gets Knock Off yet? Granted it enjoys Foul Play's more immediate power but at the same time Foul Play is also reliant more on your opponent while Knock Off's going to have a good impact regardless since they no longer have an item. Thought that might be an interesting point of discussion. ...I still feel like a fish out of whatever right now.

Edit: So I did some Calcs against one of UU's most prominent Pokemon of last Gen, one of which would generally try to switch into Sableye and...

0- Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Sableye Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 110-132 (42.1 - 50.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(110, 110, 114, 114, 116, 116, 120, 120, 120, 122, 122, 126, 126, 128, 128, 132)

0- Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 126-150 (48.2 - 57.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO


I'm starting to consider Knock Off as a VERY viable attack on Sableye.
 
Last edited:
This is something that really worries me. Remember back in Gen IV when stealth rock was just being discovered? There were huge complaints about how SR single-handedly wiped decent pokemon off the map (Yanmega, for one). People were pretty upset at how one move completely changed the metagame. Notice that if you read a lot of OU analyses for UU/RU pokemon, one of the biggest things that gets cited is a SR weakness. At one point, people seriously considered banning the move.

Was SR good? Was it bad? I really don't know. All I know is that is profoundly changed the way people played the game. It also was a huge factor in tiering. However, in the end, we decided that as radical as it was, it didn't actually make the game too over-centralized. We could still have a strategic and fun tier with Stealth Rock.

Given the increased usage of Knock Off, I think we've found the next Stealth Rock.
There is no way Knock Off, or any move will ever impact the meta like SR did. Its not even a comparison

There arent pokemon dropping from OU to RU as a result of Knock Off. Team Building isnt being affected by Knock Off.

All these post comparing Knock Off to SR is over reaction
 
There arent pokemon dropping from OU to RU as a result of Knock Off. Team Building isnt being affected by Knock Off.

All these post comparing Knock Off to SR is over reaction
It's being affected, or at least mine is. Eviolite will be harder to fit in a team; so will items like the assault vest and lefties. Essentially, because it's so omnipresent I'm afraid of running pokemon who are crippled without their items.

It could be an over reaction, but it depends on how many pokemon there are that cannot really function without their items.
 

UnicornDemon

Banned deucer.
There is no way Knock Off, or any move will ever impact the meta like SR did. Its not even a comparison

There arent pokemon dropping from OU to RU as a result of Knock Off. Team Building isnt being affected by Knock Off.

All these post comparing Knock Off to SR is over reaction
Maybe not in OU but the move is extremely popular in UU where there are more strong, physical dark types. Every team needs a dark resist that can operate without it's item. Not stealth rock levels of influence, but it is just as annoying.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
Against pokemon holding an item other than a Mega stone Knock Off is for all intents and purposes a dark-type Earthquake with no immunities and an incredible, guaranteed, side effect.
It is also the most powerful physical (reliable) dark type move (outdamaging 2 Crunches in a row!) and it has excellent distribution.
In the current metagame where consumable items are nowhere near as common as permanent items, this makes Knock Off one of, if not the absolute best offensive move in the game.

Perhaps this is GF's way to say "stop using those overpowered Leftovers and Life Orbs and start using more down-to-earth berries and gems!".
The effects of this move on the metagame can already be felt, given the astonishingly high number of psychic and ghost types who dropped in UU, including but not limited to: Jellicent, Celebi, Metagross, Jirachi, Reuniclus and Starmie. All of them are pokemon weak to Knock Off who usually run a non-consumable item.

The problem with Knock Off is that you can't have a "designated Knock Off absorber" and call it a day. Many successful teams carry 3 or even 4 Knock Off users and it is virtually impossible for a "Knock Off absorber" to beat them all at the same time.
There is nothing that can reliably beat pokemon such as Bisharp, Azumarill, Landorus (both forms), Thundurus-I, Mega Venusaur, Deoxys (both forms), Scizor, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Mamoswine, Ferrothorn and Mawile at the same time. Oh and these are just the S- and A- rank mons that get Knock Off, the list of viable users in OU is much longer (Weavile, Crawdaunt and so on).

So we have two options:
-suck it up and slowly shift to a metagame with more consumable items (re: Focus Sash) and less Psychic and Ghost types,
-consider a ban.

I'm a bit on the fence on this one. I can see why GF wanted to indirectly nerf non-consumable items since they're the culprit for some really annoying strategies (SubProtect Gliscor comes to mind), but Knock Off ended up being a bit too good.
 
Last edited:
Against pokemon holding an item other than a Mega stone
The effects of this move on the metagame can already be felt, given the astanoshingly high number of psychic and ghost types who dropped in UU, including but not limited to: Jellicent, Celebi, Metagross, Jirachi, Reuniclus and Starmie. All of them are pokemon weak to Knock Off who usually run a non-consumable item.
I don't think Knock Off has had much of an impact on most of them. Jellicent was used almost primarily as an anti-rain pokemon, Metagross was already borderline UU as well, while Celebi's suffered the most from Talonflame, Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard exisiting. Jirachi doesn't like the new Knock Off certainly, but Aegislash is probably a bigger problem for its old specially defensive set.

The only pokemon that became a threat to these mentioned here are Conkeldurr. As others have pointed out, the Knock Off buff is a pretty direct Conkeldurr buff, who was already good.
 
Mega Houndoom wouldn't mind switching into Knock Off.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 81-95 (27.7 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Losing a third of your health and a weakness to sr isn't pretty, especially if you no form of recovery.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top