Other OverUsed General Discussion

[effyouzion]

I am not ignoring anything. Volt Switch and Brave Bird wont ko (even after rocks theres only a pathetically small chance of it happening since pinsir starts 2x weak to it), while pinsir is faster and can 2hko before they can land a second hit. Pinsir is a late game cleaner, skarmory and rotom-w are walls, they are the ones that are going to be tanking a lot of hits through the match, its pretty easy to assume that the majority time pinsir will be much more healthy. The amount of pressure pinsir puts in the opponent is ridiculous because of the lack of more reliable answers for it and how it can actually get past the few ones that do exist. Skarmory and rotom are the one being pressured to death, not pinsir. If you choose to ignore this simple fact than youre the one being irrational here.

If you're going to assume Rotom and Skarm take damage throughout the match then it's only reasonable to assume that Pinsir takes damage while he sets up, putting him in KO range of brave bird and/or volt switch. But really, it's not hard for a well balanced team to play 5 on 5 until Pinsir comes out. Don't waste your Rotom if Pinsir isn't around.

And tbh you don't even need a counter to beat Pinsir. I have a team full of mons that Pinsir can OHKO at +2 (Aegislash, Bisharp, Landorus, Tyranitar, physical mLuc) yet I've never lost to a Pinsir or even really been threatened by one simply because all my mons threaten him back, preventing him from setting up, and I have plenty of priority to finish off a weakened Pinsir in the event that he does win a 1v1.

 

[alexwolf]

On another note, Taunt + WoW + SR Heatran is amazing. Not only it is a superb stall breaker (there are many stall teams that he single handedly beats), it is also an extremely effective SR setter, as it can deal with slower Defog users with Taunt (Mandibuzz) or Lava Plume (Scizor), and can even prevent the faster ones from getting rid of SR if it catches them with Taunt on the switch (Lati@s), or cripple them with WoW (Excadrill). And it's not like Lati@s can do a lot against it anyway, so you have all the time in the world to burn them first, and then spam SR. Also, WoW is great for bypassing certain moves, such as King's Shield on Aegislash, to burn it before it manages to hit you with a full powered Sacred Sword, Sucker Punch on Bisharp, and Sucker Punch on Mega Mawile, both of which can do serious damage at +2 but are completely neutered with WoW. If you are ok with no Fire STAB, you can even use Earth Power on the last slot, to deal with Roost Mega Char X and opposing Heatran, leaving only Mega Char Y, Poison Heal Gliscor, and Talonflame as safe switch-ins to this beast, and Talonflame can't do that much back anyway if it lacks boosting moves.

Using some Speed EVs is highly recommended, with the minimum being enough Speed to outrun and Taunt Defog Mandibuzz, but i like to use enough Speed to outrun defensive Rotom-W too, to Taunt it before it can use Rest / Pain Split when on low health, which can be very useful.

But really, after using this set, i could go as far as to say that Heatran deserves to be in S rank.

 

[Ninja-persian]

I have not played OU since the releasd of Pokebank, but from the comments it seems that a wide array of playstyles are viable right now: be it HO, bulky offense, stall (to a certain extent), balanced...

I believe that the greatest thing that could have happened to the metagame is the reduction of auto weather to only 5 turns (excluding heat and damp rock). In addition, this reduction was in the right measure as it still makes weather viable- not as a central component but as an auxiliary component of teams-. I am very eager to see what will unfold in the OU environment during the coming months!

 

[Photofluid]

I have not played OU since the releasd of Pokebank, but from the comments it seems that a wide array of playstyles are viable right now: be it HO, bulky offense, stall (to a certain extent), balanced...

I believe that the greatest thing that could have happened to the metagame is the reduction of auto weather to only 5 turns (excluding heat and damp rock). In addition, this reduction was in the right measure as it still makes weather viable- not as a central component but as an auxiliary component of teams-. I am very eager to see what will unfold in the OU environment during the coming months!

I don't think weather is in a good position at all this gen. Its much like the sun and rain teams before Gen V, workable, but sub par.

In an ideal status, I think weather teams should take over around 1/3 of the teams in the meta. Considering the varieties of strategy viable just within the 4 weathers itself.

Btw, I sort of think that fairies was something planned by GF right backward at the end of Gen IV, remember how everyone was surprised when Hydeigon don't have a 4* weakness? Because it will get one in the future.

Anyway, Gooey is arguably the worst non-legendary 600s by far, perhaps GF will give it something in the future, perhaps a mega in Z? Or perhaps GF has changed its internal policy about 600s. Well, I make such guessings based on the fact that Gooey is a mono-type.

 

[Ninja-persian]

I don't think weather is in a good position at all this gen. Its much like the sun and rain teams before Gen V, workable, but sub par.

In an ideal status, I think weather teams should take over around 1/3 of the teams in the meta. Considering the varieties of strategy viable just within the 4 weathers itself.

Btw, I sort of think that fairies was something planned by GF right backward at the end of Gen IV, remember how everyone was surprised when Hydeigon don't have a 4* weakness? Because it will get one in the future.

Anyway, Gooey is arguably the worst non-legendary 600s by far, perhaps GF will give it something in the future, perhaps a mega in Z? Or perhaps GF has changed its internal policy about 600s. Well, I make such guessings based on the fact that Gooey is a mono-type.

Weather is right where it should be: Not overpowered but not useless.

I actually feel that with X and Y GF is attempting to solve the screw ups it made with B/W, especially the insane power creep. Fairy type just happens to cut short the potential of the main threats introduce in Gen V: Terrakion, conkeldurr, Haxorus and hydreigon are just some of the threats whose wrecking prowess decreased this gen (they are STILL threats, but not as close as what they were last Gen). On the same note, weather was severely nerfed in order to halt the overpowered and overcentralised weather-based metagame.

 

[Photofluid]

Weather is right where it should be: Not overpowered but not useless.

I actually feel that with X and Y GF is attempting to solve the screw ups it made with B/W, especially the insane power creep. Fairy type just happens to cut short the potential of the main threats introduce in Gen V: Terrakion, conkeldurr, Haxorus and hydreigon are just some of the threats whose wrecking prowess decreased this gen (they are STILL threats, but not as close as what they were last Gen). On the same note, weather was severely nerfed in order to halt the overpowered and overcentralised weather-based metagame.

But weather teams are arguably sub par in this gen, or else politoad (nine tail for its competition with ZardY) should make OU. I actually think it is healthy to have weather being a major component of a meta, I have written somewhere else about possible changes on the weather mechanism but I am lazy to post it here. But of course, perma weather is indeed too much.

Anyway, considering the power creep, it is actually natural for a game like this to have continuous power creep through out generations. As new combinations of offensive options naturally benefits offensive teams. There is a reason why GF decides to focus on doubles in recent years.

Compare to fairies, what actually shut down HO is in fact the introduction a whole new speed tier in the form of both priority and super speedy pokemon, decrease in special move PP and the increase in WoW accuracy. Fairies only actually do its work against outrage spams, which is of a much smaller scale of effect.

 

[Pyritie]

There is a reason why GF decides to focus on doubles in recent years.

For all the doubles they love doing in VGC, the game itself does a pathetic job of getting the player comfortable with anything other than singles.

There were ZERO triple/rotation battles with random trainers in XY. And hardly any doubles -- and in half of them you only controlled one pokemon!

 

[Jaiho]

Weather is right where it should be: Not overpowered but not useless.

I actually feel that with X and Y GF is attempting to solve the screw ups it made with B/W, especially the insane power creep. Fairy type just happens to cut short the potential of the main threats introduce in Gen V: Terrakion, conkeldurr, Haxorus and hydreigon are just some of the threats whose wrecking prowess decreased this gen (they are STILL threats, but not as close as what they were last Gen). On the same note, weather was severely nerfed in order to halt the overpowered and overcentralised weather-based metagame.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Terrakion's downfall is less because of fairies, and more because of Aegislash, the ubiquity of burn, and increased use of priority, most of which (Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Vaccuum Wave) hit him Super Effectively. On the other hand, Conkeldurr has only gotten better this gen. He benefits greatly from, and is arguably the best user of, the new item Assault Vest, which allows him to patch up his mediocre Sp. Def. The Knock Off buff is really important too, letting hit a lot of its old counters extremely hard. He also has Guts to take all the burns that Rotom-W is throwing around. Haxorus and Hydreigon were basically gone by the end of BW2, because they are really outclassed.

 

[globit13]

If skarmory is a great counter to pinsir, you do what you do when any pokemon meets it's counter. Switch or play mind games. Even if you already have set up, just keep him alive.

 

[alexwolf]

But weather teams are arguably sub par in this gen, or else politoad (nine tail for its competition with ZardY) should make OU. I actually think it is healthy to have weather being a major component of a meta, I have written somewhere else about possible changes on the weather mechanism but I am lazy to post it here. But of course, perma weather is indeed too much.

Anyway, considering the power creep, it is actually natural for a game like this to have continuous power creep through out generations. As new combinations of offensive options naturally benefits offensive teams. There is a reason why GF decides to focus on doubles in recent years.

Compare to fairies, what actually shut down HO is in fact the introduction a whole new speed tier in the form of both priority and super speedy pokemon, decrease in special move PP and the increase in WoW accuracy. Fairies only actually do its work against outrage spams, which is of a much smaller scale of effect.

Never use usage as a measure of viability. The average ladder player is bad and we know it. Rain and sand abusing teams are not sub-par at all this gen, just less mindless than they were in 5th gen. Rain offense gets 7 turns of rain to take advantage of, which is not a small amount of turns at all. You think that Pokemon such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Kabutops, Starmie, Greninja, Crawdaunt, and Ferrothorn are easy to deal without your own weather inducer? Same goes for sand teams, which have Pokemon such as Mega Garchomp and Sand Rush Excadrill, all extremely difficult Pokemon to deal without changing the weather. People not using dedicated weather abusing teams actually makes them much more viable, as you get to take advantage of your own weather at its maximum potential in most games.

Sun offense is a less obvious case, but don't let the people saying that sun offense is dead give you a wrong impression. Against weatherlss teams, the only thing you have to do is bring Ninetales two, or at worst three times, as the game will more than likely have finished in 20-25 turns. No matter how shitty Tales is, it can still come in two-three times each game, especially considering that you can also lead with it. Then you still have enough turns to wreck shit with monsters such as Mega Char X, Chloro Venusaur, Victini, Chandelure, Heatran, etc. The most obvious problem of sun offense atm is when facing opposing weather teams, where keeping sun up is much more difficult, and you actually have to employ Dugtrio or other trapping mons to have a reliable chance at beating them. However, sun offense also received significant buffs in the form of Defog and Mega Char X, with Pokemon such as Defog Latias being one of the best support mons to use on sun offense.

tl;dr

Dedicated rain and sand teams are great playstyles atm, and not sub-par at all, while sun offense is just good, but still very match-up dependent. All in all, weather is still very potent and criminally underused.

 

[Ropeburn]

Would you guys say it's better to run a pokemon to set up the weather or to have the abusers themselves with their respective rocks?


Damn Politoed is devastating with a Choice Specs this gen.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Would you guys say it's better to run a pokemon to set up the weather or to have the abusers themselves with their respective rocks?

Is this even a question?

I would say yes, though Politoed is pretty much relegated to playing Utility roles rather than fun stuff like SpecsToed or ScarfToed.

 

[Photofluid]

Never use usage as a measure of viability. The average ladder player is bad and we know it. Rain and sand abusing teams are not sub-par at all this gen, just less mindless than they were in 5th gen. Rain offense gets 7 turns of rain to take advantage of, which is not a small amount of turns at all. You think that Pokemon such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Kabutops, Starmie, Greninja, Crawdaunt, and Ferrothorn are easy to deal without your own weather inducer? Same goes for sand teams, which have Pokemon such as Mega Garchomp and Sand Rush Excadrill, all extremely difficult Pokemon to deal without changing the weather. People not using dedicated weather abusing teams actually makes them much more viable, as you get to take advantage of your own weather at its maximum potential in most games.

Sun offense is a less obvious case, but don't let the people saying that sun offense is dead give you a wrong impression. Against weatherlss teams, the only thing you have to do is bring Ninetales two, or at worst three times, as the game will more than likely have finished in 20-25 turns. No matter how shitty Tales is, it can still come in two-three times each game, especially considering that you can also lead with it. Then you still have enough turns to wreck shit with monsters such as Mega Char X, Chloro Venusaur, Victini, Chandelure, Heatran, etc. The most obvious problem of sun offense atm is when facing opposing weather teams, where keeping sun up is much more difficult, and you actually have to employ Dugtrio or other trapping mons to have a reliable chance at beating them. However, sun offense also received significant buffs in the form of Defog and Mega Char X, with Pokemon such as Defog Latias being one of the best support mons to use on sun offense.

tl;dr

Dedicated rain and sand teams are great playstyles atm, and not sub-par at all, while sun offense is just good, but still very match-up dependent. All in all, weather is still very potent and criminally underused.

Probably true, but I am really uneasy about how you need to have a slot filled with a poke that is outright subpar to the meta and cannot carry items, and your switch in is just too predictable as you cannot extend the timer before the weather is gone, creating some serious time gap if you don't want to give away free turns.

Sand team has a much easier time though, as it does have phenomenal casters(Ttar and Hippowdon is that much better than the rest of all = =) and has two.

In the case of rain and sun, I actually think that they are better used as some sort of semi-weather team instead of actually building the entire team around it. Like Choice spec politoad and Zard Y(no nine tail please), which won't creates too much burden to the rest of the team but does leave some room for other teammates to take advantage of. SS users may better bring the weather themselves if they do want to abuse it. So yes, pretty much an improved version of the weather teams before Gen V.

 

[Ninja-persian]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Terrakion's downfall is less because of fairies, and more because of Aegislash, the ubiquity of burn, and increased use of priority, most of which (Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Vaccuum Wave) hit him Super Effectively. On the other hand, Conkeldurr has only gotten better this gen. He benefits greatly from, and is arguably the best user of, the new item Assault Vest, which allows him to patch up his mediocre Sp. Def. The Knock Off buff is really important too, letting hit a lot of its old counters extremely hard. He also has Guts to take all the burns that Rotom-W is throwing around. Haxorus and Hydreigon were basically gone by the end of BW2, because they are really outclassed.

Of course Fairies are not the only factor for the worstening of these pokemon. That is why I said gen VI as a whole is a correction tothe errors GF made in Gen V.

Regarding Conkeldurr, even though he received a few buffs this gen, I believe it has become easier to deal with it. Flying attacks have become much more prevalent in the metagame, which is a horrible thing for Conkeldurr. Revenge killing it with Talonflame or M-pinsir is something very easy to do. I am an user and fan of Conk, but he should never be put in battle if the opponent has a Flying STAB user such as the two mentioned above as you risk loosing valuable momentum. But yes, conkeldurr is still very usable in this gen, but not as easy as last gen, imo.

 

[Jaiho]

Of course Fairies are not the only factor for the worstening of these pokemon. That is why I said gen VI as a whole is a correction tothe errors GF made in Gen V.

Regarding Conkeldurr, even though he received a few buffs this gen, I believe it has become easier to deal with it. Flying attacks have become much more prevalent in the metagame, which is a horrible thing for Conkeldurr. Revenge killing it with Talonflame or M-pinsir is something very easy to do. I am an user and fan of Conk, but he should never be put in battle if the opponent has a Flying STAB user such as the two mentioned above as you risk loosing valuable momentum. But yes, conkeldurr is still very usable in this gen, but not as easy as last gen, imo.

According to the OU community, it has only gotten better. BW2 OU Conkeldurr was placed in the B- Tier on the Viability Thread, whereas XY OU Conkeldurr is a solid A. While most flying types can revenge kill it, pretty much none of them can switch in safely. Talonflame fears knock off, while M-Pinsir (and many others) are scared of Ice punch. The Assault Vest means that he is nigh impenetrable on the special side, handling threats like Genesect, Thundurus, Rotom-W, and Greninja much better than he could in the past. So while he is revenged by flying types, not many other pokemon can in general.

 

[Ninja-persian]

According to the OU community, it has only gotten better. BW2 OU Conkeldurr was placed in the B- Tier on the Viability Thread, whereas XY OU Conkeldurr is a solid A. While most flying types can revenge kill it, pretty much none of them can switch in safely. Talonflame fears knock off, while M-Pinsir (and many others) are scared of Ice punch. The Assault Vest means that he is nigh impenetrable on the special side, handling threats like Genesect, Thundurus, Rotom-W, and Greninja much better than he could in the past. So while he is revenged by flying types, not many other pokemon can in general.

I agres with you that caution is necessary when switching into Conk, but a reasonable ladder player will be aware of these factors. Avoiding a knock off and loss of item by Conk is almost impossible, which is the reason in my opinion for him to be so well regarded this gen. But there are pokemon who can switch into him
still and be able to set up: Gyarados with mega stone attached can easily switch in and intimidate, and proceed to DD to later transform to his mega forme and sweep. Conk has now arguably only one viable set on OU, which is assault vest. This makes him kind of an one-trick-pony, as you know he will be carrying knock off, drain punch, ice punch and probably mach punch, so it is easier to plan in advance, whilst last gen you saw bulk up and orher variants, which made it easier to plan what to do accordingly in battle.

 

[Photofluid]

I agres with you that caution is necessary when switching into Conk, but a reasonable ladder player will be aware of these factors. Avoiding a knock off and loss of item by Conk is almost impossible, which is the reason in my opinion for him to be so well regarded this gen. But there are pokemon who can switch into him
still and be able to set up: Gyarados with mega stone attached can easily switch in and intimidate, and proceed to DD to later transform to his mega forme and sweep. Conk has now arguably only one viable set on OU, which is assault vest. This makes him kind of an one-trick-pony, as you know he will be carrying knock off, drain punch, ice punch and probably mach punch, so it is easier to plan in advance, whilst last gen you saw bulk up and orher variants, which made it easier to plan what to do accordingly in battle.

It is not like the older sets are completely unviable, but that the new set completely outclasses the former, especially when guts is becoming a better ability over sheer force in a meta with so many status getting around.

Knock off is so immensely powerful to not use, ice punch is used on pretty much any sets for coverage anyway.... neither of them actually bears any negative effect to its performance IMO.

This thing is predictable, but it still punch holes on your team what so ever.

 

[Ninja-persian]

It is not like the older sets are completely unviable, but that the new set completely outclasses the former, especially when guts is becoming a better ability over sheer force in a meta with so many status getting around.

Knock off is so immensely powerful to not use, ice punch is used on pretty much any sets for coverage anyway.... neither of them actually bears any negative effect to its performance IMO.

This thing is predictable, but it still punch holes on your team what so ever.

If you are unprepared for it, yes it will blow holes in your team- just like mos pokemon a team may be unprepared for-. However, if covered properly, Conk should not give major problems to a team. However, as I have said before, he is a solid threat this gen.

 

[Groudon ex]

Dedicated rain and sand teams are great playstyles atm, and not sub-par at all, while sun offense is just good, but still very match-up dependent. All in all, weather is still very potent and criminally underused.

Glad you made this post - I'm having huge success on the ladder at the moment with an offensive rain team. Although it doesn't depend on rain quite as much as traditional, manual rain teams typical of the gen 4 metagame, it does feature the deadly combination of rain + Belly Drum Azumarril. Seriously, this thing just rips most teams to shreds if it gets the chance to set up (if you don't resist Water or have an obscene amount of physical bulk, you WILL be OHKOd by a +6 Aqua Jet in the rain - even some Water resists still take well over 50% from a boosted Aqua Jet). All you really need to is remove faster priority users (Talonflame) and weaken bulky Water/Fairy resists (Mega Venusaur/Ferrothorn) and you should have little problems getting an easy sweep. Even once the rain has stopped, Azumarril still packs a hell of a lot of power, so its sweep is much more difficult to halt than Swift Swim abusers.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/overused-general-discussion.3496581/page-10#post-5173617

I agree with it. Also, people in OU normally don't remember that the moves that set-up weather manually exist, and that are TM with very high availability with very good users, specially in the case of Rain and Sun. Three examples: Deoxys-S; Kingdra, Tornadus-T are good setters of Rain Dance that are excellent leads and/or an abuse the rain themselves.

If you really want to make a pure Sun/Rain team, you need at least 2-3 setters of the weather.

This is a pure sun team : Ninetales*/Venusaur**/Dragonite/Mandibuzz*/Aegislash/Mega Charizard Y
This is NOT a pure sun team***: Rotom-W/Garchomp/Gyarados/Aegislash/Scizor/Mega Charizard Y.

*Has Sunny Day/Drought and Heat Rock
** Has Chlorophyll.
***None of the pokemon in the second team has neither Sunny Day or have heavy benefited from sun partern of MCharizard Y.

 

[Photofluid]

The standard set up of full weather team in this generation should actually consist TWO weather setter. Mono setter, even with rocks, can be insufficient in many cases.

However, I don't really think one should acually consider Ninetales when building a sun team, it is just outright sub par in anyway one may think of.Having something with sun move, for instance, Venusaur, would be a better choice IMO, and ofc paired with ZardY.

Btw, I am in general very uneasy about picking up rocks as the item choice, it seems that every setter we have works better with some other items, and I hate the idea that a pokemon is outright useless except doing mono supportting job, except may be SR + 2 layer of spikes in the case of Deoxys-S/D.

 

[Hibiki]

to copy and paste from the thread I misposted in:

I hate how spammable knock off is. Makes conk and other users pretty unfun to play against. The only true counter to it is a dark resist mega/physically bulky mega and that itself is pretty predictable

 

[Colonial]

to copy and paste from the thread I misposted in:

I hate how spammable knock off is. Makes conk and other users pretty unfun to play against. The only true counter to it is a dark resist mega/physically bulky mega and that itself is pretty predictable

Terrakion and it's Justified ability would also work. Sure you'd lose your Band/LO/whatever, but you'd get +1 attack in return (and you would scare the opponent- decreasing their likelihood of using Knock Off in the future).

 

[Hibiki]

Terrakion and it's Justified ability would also work. Sure you'd lose your Band/LO/whatever, but you'd get +1 attack in return (and you would scare the opponent- decreasing their likelihood of using Knock Off in the future).

It would work for some weaker users but Conk and Bisharp come to mind as main users and they are really hard hitters so you still take about 40%. Bisharp can finish you off with sucker punch if you've taken prior damage or just predict the switch and Iron Head.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 121-142 (37.4 - 43.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%)

Assuming the only thing Terrakion comes in on is Knock off (and nothing else):

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 81-95 (25 - 29.4%)

Second switch in and you're risking Sucker Punch range, and guaranteed it with SR on your side.

Conk can take a CC then drain punch you for the OHKO, or mach punch with prior damage.
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 306-360 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Maybe a lot of this is obvious but yeah ~_~

My main gripe is that even when you expect knock off it's "If I'm right I lose my item and if I'm wrong I lose my pokemon"

 

[The TurtleLord]

how many of you think that mega pinsir is incredibly good? i mean he has a spammable 198 power return, powerful priority in quick attack (around 80 power i think). access to swords dance, 155 attack and almost nothing can reliably switch into him. even rotom fears him at plus 2, and with the new defog buff hazard control is even easier
list of counters;-
-Skarmory
-Rotom-w (risks mold breaker eq or +2 return)
-zapdos (risks +2 return 2hkoing after rocks)
-donphan (+2 return 2hkos)
thats literally all i know of that can switch into this beast

alexwolf EDIT: Removed any OP mentions, as you are not supposed to talk about this here.