Your Teambuilding Philosophy

[effyouzion]

I do it like this:

1) Pick Ho-oh
2) Pick Palkia (for Kyogre)
3) Pick something for Arceus normal (physically defensive Groudon usually)
4) Pick some form of priority (Kangaskhan or Arceus normal usually, Yveltal is too unreliable altho he makes a good secondary priority user)
5) Make sure I can handle other Ho-ohs (Arceus rock if not using Arceus normal)

Rest doesn't matter much. No need for a Xerneas check if you have priority + Ho-oh, altho you can get into trouble if you let the other guy get up rocks while he sacs a poke, then sends Xerneas in to set up while your Ho-oh is going to be sitting at 50% on the switch (which is well within range of being killed by a +2 Tbolt).

 

[Mr.378]

When I build a team I usually find a starting concept I want to build around and add members that fulfill that concept. Then I add support to either help fulfill the concept or help cover it's weaknesses. For example if I want to build an offensive team I would find some good premier sweepers and other offensive pokemon and add checks/counters to their checks/counters and any support I feel is necessary like any weather or hazards, usually rocks. I also tend to add any hard counters to things that kind of need a hard counter to keep it in check.For example I like to pack something like Aegis for Xerneas and so on.

 

[Disaster Area]

It depends for me how stally/offensive I'm building it, but I can relate a bit to orch's process.

I think for me I want to be able to check if possible all, but usually most at least, of what was on orch's list, plus some stuff he missed like Ygod and Mewtwo..

I'm usually happy if I have to each one either a hard coutner of a couple of checks, and that they rely as little as possible on inaccurate moves (I hate WoW in that respect, but that's about all I can deal with. Hydro pump? Focus Miss? No thank you)

If I'm building offensively then you want something to set up hazards and possibly screens (probably deo-S tbh), and then 5 sweepers that can pick up where the others have left off, and can come in when certain deadlier sweepers are set up, particularly Xgod and M-blaze.. So stuff like scarfogre, scarfzek, geoxern, mblaze, mgar, all fit this sort of team..

Then usually I chat with people in the ubers room for advice, finding out what wrecks me, what my team could do with in terms of extra supprt, and the more I do this the better I can become at seeing it for myself and forming better teams.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Haruno, you commented on my team build earlier, and yes, it is weak to a few mons but most teams are weak to something. Anyway gira-o can deal eith a boosted mmx

 

[Disaster Area]

Obviously the fewer and rarer mons you're weak to the better..

 

[Ascension]

1) Find a couple pokemon you like 2) Find out what consistently beats the pokemon you like 3) Continue "tweaking" your team until you cover as many variables as possible. The law of diminishing returns kicks in fairly quickly when you try to be creative, and everytime you make even a minor change, you take a huge risk. But to me a win is more valuable when you use pokemon you like. Of course there are general guidelines I follow with all teams I make: 1) Always have a choice scarfer 2) Try to have at least 1 resistance to all types 3) If playing ubers have a solid counter or a couple checks to major threats like Kyogre, Xerneas, and Arceus.

 

[Hrothgar]

1) pick mewtwo
2) build around it

Well, that's what it always turns into anyway. I guess it's a bit more complicated than that but it's still pretty simple.

1) pick a pokemon (usually mewtwo)
2) add two members that cover its weaknesses if youre balanced or kill its counters if youre offense
3) add 3 counters to remaining threats
4) make sure mewtwo is on your team
5) make sweet love to mewtwo plushie
6) playtest and make adjustments

#5 is interchangeable with any other step

 

[Not a missingno]

Early in the ladder,like 1300-1500~,pack a phazer/xerneas check.They are EVERYWHERE,on every team in that phase.A phazer I normally use is something that is setup bait,and isn't normally carrying a phazing move,like Giratina-altered.A check would be something like scizor/aegislash,though AV metagross works wonders.When you're up there,like 1600-1800~,prepare for sets other than power herb geomancy,like scarf.I suppose this is getting into Xerneas too much,but this is like 44~ percent of the metagame.It's important.After Xerneas I'd prepare for Kyogre,Palkia,Ho-Oh,Mewtwo,and Blaziken,maybe Kanga-M.After you have those covered,feel free to build afterwards.Seriously,just follow this advice and you'll get really far.

 

[Hack]

No you won't

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Teams full of counters to specific pokemon generally get fucked by prediction. However, my team is essentially 4 counters, a scarf, and a ho-oh, and that got me pretty far.

 

[Draco Meteora]

I´m new here :)

Xerneas - The god, no direct counters, ability who boosts the STAB, signature move Geomancy etc.
Steath Rock - Lugia and Ho-Oh are common checks and both dislike this stones In their asses.
Xerneas Check - Usually a Sp.Def Lugia, it can take +2 Moonblast without Multiscale effect and phaze with Whirlwind.
Physical Sweeper - Usually Scarf Zekrom or ExtremeKiller Arceus, both are annoying threats.
Defog Giratina - I really like this wall and It can use Defog easily If needed.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

There are counters to xerneas lol. Chansey, aegislash, arceus poison.

The occasional close combat xerneas does quite a lot of damage chansey but they aren't very hard to beat.

 

[orch]

There are counters to xerneas lol. Chansey, aegislash, arceus poison.

The occasional close combat xerneas does quite a lot of damage chansey but they aren't very hard to beat.

There's no counters for xerneas.

Sub geo xern kicks chansey ass easily. Arceus poison is ohkod by psyshock. Aegislash has ~10% chance of 2hko'd by hp fire.

 

[rileydelete]

Generally, before I build a team I think of something fun that I've never tried before. It can be a Pokemon, a set, a new core, or even a particular move. In the past I've tried things like Tailwind Ho-Oh, Hex Giratina with Toxic Spikes support, and Magic Coat Latias. This "try something new" attitude lead to me creating my own personal Ubers experiment of the week last gen. The point of this experimentation really isn't to peak the ladder or break a mold, but to have some fun trying different things and new possibilities.

From there after the first few ladder matches, it becomes clear that tweaks need to be made. Weaknesses become evident, and I need to start thinking about if certain Pokemon would work better with my experiment, or if minor changes are all that are needed. For example, I recently observed that as good as a Wallceus Ghost set with Recover, Judgement, Will-o-Wisp, and Roar could be, my team would actually benefit more if I simply changed it's typing to Fairy. Now I'm not only checking threats that gave me trouble (Yveltal comes to mind), but I can continue supporting my team and keep wearing down my opponents Pokemon.

Now, there's always an idea that the ladder has certain threats that every team needs to prepare for; Extremekiller Arceus and Power Herb Xerneas come to mind. However, it doesn't take too long on the ladder to realize the extent to which your team is weak to them. As said above, after playtesting a team, my teams always need to adapt and be tweaked. You'll never be able to prepare for every danger out there, but by making changes and adjustments, your team can survive the metagame while trying something new. In fact, creativity can often work wonderfully for laddering, because you'll be using things people don't expect.

Teambuilding doesn't have to be a chore, or a case of "make sure I check A, B, and C". If you can treat it as an opportunity to innovate, crafting teams can be something that can keep you engaged, and you'll hopefully come to what I find is the the most important part of battling: fun :)

 

[Disaster Area]

Well riley that kind of teambuilding suits me and you can always discuss ideas and playtest with me ;) I'm always trying out new stuff, including mawile (still), sub seed skymin, phys def trick room support groundceus (lol mouthful), sticky web w/ smeargle.. some of it turning out pleasently well it has to be said.

 

[Krauersaut]

This is my team building process... it may be unorthodox or it might not even work, but it is what it is :)

First of all, I have a copy/paste of Orch's threat list out and ready to use... it's extremely important to have said Mons checked, or it's very potential to have immense problems with them <cb ho-oh with no rocks up>. That being said, it remains important to still have some form of SR. In my opinion, the best stealth rock setters remain Deoxys D/S, Dialga, Groudon, Ferrothorn and (possibly) blobs. Out of those options, I'd typically go with Groudon, but choose whatever fits your team right. A stealth rock setter is one of the last things I'd add to my team.

One of the most important things about team building (imho) is that you absolutely require a core. (If you don't know, a core is 2-3 Pokèmon that synergize extremely well together.) Typically, I go with either powerhouses in Ubers, or start off with one Mon that I really like, and build the rest of the core around it. Just for example here, let's say we took CB Ho-Oh. CB Ho-Oh is weak mainly to 3 things; Stealth Rocks, Groudon and Rockceus. Whilst there may be more and arguably better counters, those are without a doubt the most prominent ones. Since Ho-Oh is undeniably weak to all 3 of the aforementioned things, this will be a 3-teammate-core. First of all, we need a defogger; Ho-Oh absolutely requires Defog support. Typically, people will go with an Arceus-forme this gen, and it's a tried and true method. I like to run an Arceus form specially defensive with 248 in HP, 252 in SDef and 8 in SpA, with a Calm nature, but it's personal preference as to whether you want it physically tanky or specially tanky.

So, now, we have Ho-Oh and an Arceus form (let's go with Grass, shall we?). Arceus-Grass is an extremely reliable check to all of the three main Ho-Oh checks. So now; what is Arceus-Grass weak to? Fire, flying.... does that sound familiar? Even though you have a defogger, it's still almost mandatory to have a check to Ho-Oh in the form of Stealth Rocks, thereby requiring an SR user. Since I'm running specially defensive Arceus, I'd like a physically tanky SR setter... sound familiar? In adding Groudon to the team, I now have a reliable E-Killer check, and I have Stealth Rocks AND a check to Ho-Oh formes.

Ho-Oh, Grassceus and Groudon; 2/3 of them are extremely weak to a certain water behemoth... Kyogre has been the champion of Ubers ever since its fateful release in Gen 3, and it is absolutely mandatory to have a check to it. What's the best check to Kyogre, you ask?

And I quote Donkey; "fucking palkia weak"

Since my team thus far would appreciate special damage, and a check to Kyogre, SpecsKia seems like a good addition to this team, does it not? SpecsKia is a set not many people expect, and it is capable of both taming the ogre and dishing out some huge damage.

Ho-Oh, Grassceus, Groudon, Palkia... What's that weak to? Or, better yet; what's something that it DOESN'T check? O deer god.... (ba dum tsp)

Xerneas is a MONSTER. With absolutely no support required from its team, it's an extremely versatile, unpredictable Mon that can absolutely rip teams apart. The best counter to Xerneas, in my opinion, is Aegislash.... however, Aegislash doesn't do much effectively outside of being a Xerneas counter. So, I decided to add Jirachi to my team. Apart from the extremely rare HP Fire, Xerneas can't do !@#% to Jirachi. I'd run TWave and Iron Head to maximize Xerneas-shut-down-ness. ;)

Ho-Oh, Grassceus, Groudon, Palkia, Jirachi... I'd argue that this team is fairly even right now. That being said, it needs one more addition. Whenever I'm in a situation like this, I break it down to typings.

Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Water, Dragon, Steel, Psychic. Those typings are rather prone to Scarfkrom, Darkrai and Mega-Gengar... what beats all three? Priority. And while the last slot is PURELY personal preference on what you think you need checks on, I decided to add Mega-Kangaskhan to this team. Fake Out and Sucker Punch give it the ability to save your team from so many threats, and with an incredible ability before and after mega-evolution to boot. If you don't mega evolve it, you can use Scrappy to it's full most potential by faking out the Mega-Gengar, and proceeding to mega evolve and use Sucker Punch. This beats pure speed sweepers, breaks focus sashes and rounds out the team nicely.

So, in that, my example team is:

Ho-Oh, Arceus-Grass, Groudon, Jirachi, Palkia and Kangaskhan.

While your team may end up looking like something not even close to that, I truly believe the process to getting that team works quite well.

Please let me know how this works, and your opinions on it; all feedback is appreciated. ;] oh my god I almost used edgrr's smiley face

 

[EmblemLord]

What is the best Arceus form for a team that consists of a core of Groudon (+Def) + Ho-Oh (CB) + Palkia (AV). I'm currently using Rockceus to check opposing Ho-Oh, but I'm wondering if another form might be superior for this team. The Groudon set I'm using is running Thunder Wave over Roar, so it can't really check E-killer. I've had decent success using Rockceus as an E-killer check as well, as not many I've encountered were running Lum. What other options would you suggest to patch up the core? I currently have Yveltal (Life Orb) and Xerneas (Geomancy), and the team has been performing okay. Thinking of an additional Kyogre check, as AV Palkia is still worn down by Specs-Ogre quite fast.

 

[Krauersaut]

What is the best Arceus form for a team that consists of a core of Groudon (+Def) + Ho-Oh (CB) + Palkia (AV). I'm currently using Rockceus to check opposing Ho-Oh, but I'm wondering if another form might be superior for this team. The Groudon set I'm using is running Thunder Wave over Roar, so it can't really check E-killer. I've had decent success using Rockceus as an E-killer check as well, as not many I've encountered were running Lum. What other options would you suggest to patch up the core? I currently have Yveltal (Life Orb) and Xerneas (Geomancy), and the team has been performing okay. Thinking of an additional Kyogre check, as AV Palkia is still worn down by Specs-Ogre quite fast.

I'm not entirely sure how Rockceus has been checking EKiller, because EKiller would most likely outspeed, and I believe Earthquake is a OHKO... Rockceus is a tried and try method, but at the end of the day, Stealth Rocks are what beat Ho-Oh, not Rockceus. If any decent player has a Ho-Oh on their team, they'll have a Rockceus check. Also... Life Orb Yveltal? In my honest opinion, Life Orb is its worst set. I'd either go physically bulky Yveltal, or Choice Band. (if you want background on how CB Yveltal works, pm me, huehuehue) If you're looking at specifically an Arceus form that best supports your team, I'd have to say Grassceus, and maybe alter Palkia's set a bit... Grassceus is a great way to defeat Kyogre and take hits Palkia can't, and pack Rock Slide on Xerneas to beat those poor Ho-Oh's who think they can tank your Moonblast.

 

[rileydelete]

What is the best Arceus form for a team that consists of a core of Groudon (+Def) + Ho-Oh (CB) + Palkia (AV). I'm currently using Rockceus to check opposing Ho-Oh, but I'm wondering if another form might be superior for this team. The Groudon set I'm using is running Thunder Wave over Roar, so it can't really check E-killer. I've had decent success using Rockceus as an E-killer check as well, as not many I've encountered were running Lum. What other options would you suggest to patch up the core? I currently have Yveltal (Life Orb) and Xerneas (Geomancy), and the team has been performing okay. Thinking of an additional Kyogre check, as AV Palkia is still worn down by Specs-Ogre quite fast.

To be honest, EmblemLord, this question would be better directed at the Ubers "simple questions, simple answers thread" (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...edition-read-before-posting-a-thread.3490353/) Still, I'll try to answer your question the best way I can. :)

So, you have a Bulky Groudon with Thunder Wave, a Banded Ho-Oh, and Assault Vest Palkia. In and of itself, you've got a strong core that allows you to deal with Kyogre and hit hard specially (Go to Palkia), rip holes through teams (Banded Ho-Oh + Sun), and support the team with Paralysis spreading. Now it's time to think about your Arceus. You're using Rockceus to deal with Ho-Oh, but you can actually make some minor tweaks to some of your other 5 Pokemon to deal with Ho-Oh without even worrying about your Arceus form.

• Your Groudon can run some speed EVs, or a speedy nature (I always tend to speed creep my Groudon with a Jolly Nature). Give it either Rock Slide or Stone Edge, and more often than not, your behemoth will KO Ho-Oh before it has a chance to move. Your Groudon can also utilize Stealth Rock early-game if you fear dealing with Ho-Oh later.
• Even with an Assault Vest, Palkia will always get a clean 2HKO with Hydro Pump on Ho-Oh with no weather (sun may make it a 3HKO on bulky variants, Rain will normally make it a 1HKO). Nearly all Palkia users universally run max Speed and will outspeed non-scarf Ho-Oh. If Stealth Rock has been set up, or Ho-Oh comes in on Palkia with a good deal of damage, the master of space will rip Ho-Oh apart. Note however that Palkia loathes taking Brave Birds.
• Your Ho-Oh will do a great deal of damage to opposing Ho-Ohs if not outright KOing them. The trick here is to make sure you outspeed it. Assuming you run max speed and/or a Jolly nature, you'll probably kill it before it kills you. Again, Stealth Rock is your friend. I've never seen a Ho-Oh survive a banded Ho-Oh's Brave Bird at 50% health.
• Yveltal is interesting. Ho-Oh's special bulk is phenomenal, but Yveltal has a mighty strong physical movepool as well. The two, physical options that I think of using on Yveltal are Foul Play (which always will do 40%+ to a Ho-Oh), and Sucker Punch (which will vary, but typically does 30%+). When backed by STAB + Dark Aura + some physical EVs, Yveltal will more often then not take away half of Ho-Ohs health. I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but Stealth Rock will make your job killing the firebird easy, OR make it so that Ho-oh will probably not switch back in without dying. I'm not sure what your Yveltal's moveset is, but don't neglect it's physical side. Priority through sucker punch is particularly nice.
• Xerneas can, more often than not, get a 2HKO on Ho-Oh after a Geomancy by using Thunderbolt. Ho-Oh's bulk is just that good. You could theoretically run Hidden Power Rock, but you'll only be using it to kill the Phoenix. HOWEVER, much like Yveltal, Xerneas has a nice physical movepool. When dealing with Ho-Oh, you can actually run Rock Slide to deal damage, or outright kill the bird. Rock Slide may seem crazy, but Physical and/or mixed Xerneas is a force to be reckoned with. If you want some shock value, and feel like changing your Xerneas a bit, Rock Slide will be extremely fun.

and now we come to your main question: which Arceus form should I use? If you make any or some of the above tweaks, you'll have quite a bit of freedom when picking your form. I'd say change Xerneas to a physical or mixed set, then add an Ekiller. Geomancy + Powerherb Xerneas is a phenomenal late-game cleaner, but it can only set up once. Lum Ekiller can tank a Sacred Fire, cure the Burn if it happens, and do intense damage to Ho-Oh, often killing it if it's taken some prior damage, then rampage through the rest of your opponent's team. The way I see it, this way you keep a powerful late game cleaner, and add some versatility to your team. I'd also say that if you really dread Ho-Oh that much, set up stealth rock when you can. As great as the firebird is, nothing likes losing half of its health on a switch in. When Ho-Oh is at 50% health, most, if not all of your Pokemon can bring it down. If you like Rockceus, keep him, but you can see some potential alternatives to deal with Ho-Oh above.

Again, please use the simple questions thread in the future, but if you have any further questions, feel free to shoot me a PM :)

 

[EmblemLord]

Thank you both for the very helpful information! Much appreciated, and I will be keeping any other questions I have for that thread linked above.

 

[Hack]

What is the best Arceus form for a team that consists of a core of Groudon (+Def) + Ho-Oh (CB) + Palkia (AV). I'm currently using Rockceus to check opposing Ho-Oh, but I'm wondering if another form might be superior for this team. The Groudon set I'm using is running Thunder Wave over Roar, so it can't really check E-killer. I've had decent success using Rockceus as an E-killer check as well, as not many I've encountered were running Lum. What other options would you suggest to patch up the core? I currently have Yveltal (Life Orb) and Xerneas (Geomancy), and the team has been performing okay. Thinking of an additional Kyogre check, as AV Palkia is still worn down by Specs-Ogre quite fast.

Fairy in most cases, you need defog support, get a physical Dragon/rain Kia check, Yveltal check and so on. Your core isn't particularly vulnerable to Scizor or Aegislash so you can run Toxic on it to alleviate the Ho-oh issue.

 

[Blue Jay]

What is the best Arceus form for a team that consists of a core of Groudon (+Def) + Ho-Oh (CB) + Palkia (AV). I'm currently using Rockceus to check opposing Ho-Oh, but I'm wondering if another form might be superior for this team. The Groudon set I'm using is running Thunder Wave over Roar, so it can't really check E-killer. I've had decent success using Rockceus as an E-killer check as well, as not many I've encountered were running Lum. What other options would you suggest to patch up the core? I currently have Yveltal (Life Orb) and Xerneas (Geomancy), and the team has been performing okay. Thinking of an additional Kyogre check, as AV Palkia is still worn down by Specs-Ogre quite fast.

Please ignore silly suggestions of Choice Band Yveltal.

Rock Arceus is really only necessary if your team is quite weak to Ho-Oh, or if you end up with needing a single Pokemon to handle both Ho-Oh and Yveltal.

Water Arceus can check Ho-Oh and Blaziken, generally has good typing and gives you extra security against Kyogre (whatever it locks itself into will be resisted by your Arceus or Groudon, so you can force it out a lot).

Fairy Arceus is another great option in general, since it's a good check to most Dragon-, Dark- and Fighting-types, but as you already have Xerneas they overlap somewhat unless you decide to replace it.

Whatever Arceus forme you choose in the end, you'll want a solid check to Geomancy Xerneas somewhere in your team. If your opponent can prevent a Defog (which is not unreasonable), you have no way of stopping Geomancy Xerneas sweeping your entire team.

 

[Krauersaut]

Please ignore silly suggestions of Choice Band Yveltal.

Rock Arceus is really only necessary if your team is quite weak to Ho-Oh, or if you end up with needing a single Pokemon to handle both Ho-Oh and Yveltal.

Water Arceus can check Ho-Oh and Blaziken, generally has good typing and gives you extra security against Kyogre (whatever it locks itself into will be resisted by your Arceus or Groudon, so you can force it out a lot).

Fairy Arceus is another great option in general, since it's a good check to most Dragon-, Dark- and Fighting-types, but as you already have Xerneas they overlap somewhat unless you decide to replace it.

Whatever Arceus forme you choose in the end, you'll want a solid check to Geomancy Xerneas somewhere in your team. If your opponent can prevent a Defog (which is not unreasonable), you have no way of stopping Geomancy Xerneas sweeping your entire team.

I was just putting it out there ;-;

:P Take Blue J's advice the majority of the time, he's a very experienced player. (just adding that so it doesn't seem like I just posted to stroke my hurt ego ;-;)

 

[Blue Jay]

I was just putting it out there ;-;

:P Take Blue J's advice the majority of the time, he's a very experienced player. (just adding that so it doesn't seem like I just posted to stroke my hurt ego ;-;)

It does have some nice physical options, but no Dark STAB beyond Sucker Punch (which is horribly risky to lock yourself into, and most moves should reveal the Yveltal set), no strong Flying STAB and no health recovery + SR weakness are some major letdowns. The Life Orb set (if you hate the recoil you can use Dread Plate) can still be quite devastating, especially since Mega-Gengar can quite reliably remove all its best checks (Fairies and Arceus-Rock).

 

[Edgar]

I agree with almost everything you said, the only thing I don't agree with is removing the Pokemon you wanted to base the team around, i.e: you put Landorus-T > Gliscor when Landorus-T and Gliscor work differently as partner for Jirachi.