Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I don't really like the idea of blacklisting any pokemon we feel has been over discussed. The meta game still has room to morph, and if we get too comfortable with just blacklisting anything that we've come to a consensus on, we might not realize that their rank should be altered down the road. That said, I don't know what else to do if people who clearly haven't been part of the discussion come in and make the same invalid points brought up earlier keep on wasting space on this thread.

 

[alexwolf]

Stop suggesting to blacklist Pokemon. This is supposed to be an emergency measure in case even moderating the thread becomes hard, as the bad posts regarding a Pokemon are way too much. Regarding overdiscussed topics, such as Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W, me and the other mods can just warn the people to not talk about them, because a conclusion about them has already been reached, and if a warning is not enough, deletion of posts and infractions will follow.

Anyway, just to be clear, here goes a warning: Discussion about Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur is prohibited as long as there is no significant metagame change, unless someone wants to bring up something that hasn't already been mentioned in the thread. Ignoring this warning will lead to post deletion and maybe infractions.

 

[Photofluid]

While I am still a bit uneased about Msaur being S, I may just hold that one for a while

I would like to nominate Chesnaught for B/B+

The reason here is that Chesnaught has a strong physical defensive coverage, while at first glance it packs a total of 6 weaknesses, it is extremely manageable when you consider that fly-type, ice punch, and fire punch are all very predictable, while poison, psychic are very uncommon on the physical side, and play rough distribution is simply pathetic.

In exchange, it has a resistance to EdgeQuake and the powerful Dark type, combined with a reliable heal, it is literally an impassible wall for those pokemon that it manages to check. Another note is that with its signature move Spiky shield, it can at least do something even in the worst scenario, because most moves which checks him are contact moves and take damage from the shield.

However, the best niche of Ches in the current meta is probably its ability to counter ghost. While it does not really do much in return, immunity to the shadow ball/focus blast/aura sphere combo makes this thing the only thing in the meta that can counter the mighty ghost/fight combo. While it does not do much things in return either, walling most, if not all, of the Aegislash set is enough a reason to at least catch some attention. And if Gengar decides to not take sludge wave, we have another ghost to troll with.

Some major weakness is that it does not have significant offensive presence more than often do little things in return. It does have roar to phaze out the things though, so at least it is not a complete set up folder.

Also, with fly being very common this gen, its walling ability can be rather shaky in quite some scenario. However, when it works, it just works, and it often works.

I personally find Celebi a lot more effective than I thought it would be. It's a full stop to Rotom-W for one, and for two it absorbs Status really well. I prefer the offensive spread nowadays, as you really don't need any SpDef to come in on Rotom-W and the extra power and speed is huge. Celebi lures Heatran with Earth Power like no other, and Talonflame takes a lot from Psychic. I also like predicting Genesect and Aegislash with Earth Power, as it really weakens them quickly over time. Combine Celebi with Heatran and you have a great answer to Volt-Turn and a solid defensive core. Definitely B+.

Another thing about Celebii is that it is the very few grass type with usable special bulk besides Megasaur and Shaymin.

 

[Triskili]

Stop suggesting to blacklist Pokemon. This is supposed to be an emergency measure in case even moderating the thread becomes hard, as the bad posts regarding a Pokemon are way too much. Regarding overdiscussed topics, such as Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W, me and the other mods can just warn the people to not talk about them, because a conclusion about them has already been reached, and if a warning is not enough, deletion of posts and infractions will follow.

Understandable. It'll open to more discussion on pokemon that aren't talked about. Pokemon that were mentioned in previous posts but ignored because of heated debates on the pokemon that are recently blacklisted. Again, I could say the benefits and counters on the pokemon I've mentioned but it's just tedious to say the same thing all the time w/o having the proof of calcs. (I could provide calcs but doing that on the phone and being away from the comp....takes a bit of time) >.>

 

[Srn]

Are we going to establish an A- ranking. I think that Kyurem-B deserves this rank. While Kyurem-B has an overwhelming attack stat, and movepool, it is not A Rank easy to fit it into teams. It is weak to all forms of hazards and takes 25% from SR, so Defog is needed. In addition, it is weak to fighting, steel, fairy, rock, and dragon, four are more of the common attacking moves in the game.

It does destroy stall that is not a joke, but its speed stat is sort of underwhelming 95, which is slower than most common sweepers right now... Lucario, Terrakion, Keldeo, Genesect can all OHKO back with super effective moves.

I'll add more if there are people who agree with me, but I just don't think Kyurem-B is that easy to fit as other A rankers such as Deo-D, Scizor, and Conkeldurr.

Kyu-b is A rank despite the numerous flaws you have mentioned.
1) kyu-b outspeeds lucario before mega evolution, where it can just nail it with an earth power.
2) Kyu-b is super bulky and has handy resists in electric, grass, and water, allowing for a pretty safe switch in to rotom-w
3) Speaking of rotom-w, you completely destroy him. You can set up a sub in his face and he can do nothing back while you earth power him (teravolt ignores levitate). You also outspeed lando-t and can ice beam him in one go. The common core of rotom-w/lando-t is thus destroyed, which is always a plus, considering how obnoxious and common it is.
4) That's not the only core you break. You also break the hated venutran core. You can sub on heatran and threaten the earth power otherwise, and a ice beam from this guy from the standard sub set does a clean 60% to mega venusaur (teravolt ignore thick fat) Mega venusaur can only sludge bomb back to break his subs

Kyu-b is A because of his ability to break through common pokemon and cores like the ones listed above with little to no support. It's almost no exaggeration to say he pairs well with any sweeper who wants rotom-w or lando-t gone.

Woah woah youre missing the mark it looks like the only thing in my post you read was "SR weak" that is just one small knock. Talonflame, and Zard-X, and Y are not even on the same level. First of all Zard-X can sweep stall and offense by itself and nothing but Chansey with max health, Dragonite, and Latias can switch into Zard-Y. The only reason they are not S is because they cannot be slapped onto teams because of the SR weak.

"Nothing comes close" if you are going to argue that nothing comes close how is it better than Mega Lucario which hits 355 speed, and Zard-X, Zard-Y, and Mega Pinsir. Kyurem-B is a good stall breaker but it cant compete with Mega Heracross ever. (no idea why it is B rank)

Also please explain how Kyurem-B takes a vacuum wave from mega lucario. Also, youre saying nobody would switch Mega Lucario out on Aegislash... "Oh lets just sack my best sweeper" probably the worst argument I've heard since Sableye for B rank. Defog support is enough to drop Zard-X, Zard-Y, and Talonflame. Anyways, its not just defog support I said unlike those 3 it doesnt resist earthquake, and uturn, it has problems switching in on offense and is sometimes deadweight vs HO.

I can definitely explain how kyu-b can compete with mega heracross: IT BREAKS LANDO-T. Landorus-t is often the general answer to anything physical because people get lazy with teambuilding, and mega heracross can't really do too much to lando-t. Mega heracross hits an unattractive speed tier of 75 and if you want to invest in speed, you're pretty frail and still vulnerable to talonflame, if you want to invest in bulk rotom-w can just come in and WoW. Kyu-b can take a hit from talonflame and kill with fusion bolt, and handles rotom-w and lando-t exceptionally well. Kyu-b also does better against mandibuzz than mega heracross in my opinion. Not to mention kyu-b isn't taking up any precious mega slot.

Also, zard x can most certainly not sweep entire stall teams by itself. If you're the bulky set with roost/dd/flare blitz/dragon claw you're walled by heatran and if you opt for earthquake, you still can't touch quagsire. It's not THAT easy for char-x to just blow through stall you see.

Lastly, kyu-b is certainly NOT deadweight against HO. Unless your HO team is a suicide lead and 5 set up sweepers (really dumb idea), kyu-b can always take advantage of any utility or pivot inside and HO team, bar scizor. Rotom-w is often the most common one, and once kyu-b gets a sub on this guy (not hard at all) its the HO team which is gonna have problems.

To be honest, I've actually found Quagsire most of the time to be a worse Clefable. Quagsire is bulkier on the physical side, but only there, meaning that as an unaware user, its potential to full-stop set-up sweepers is less. It also has fewer useful resistances and a much shallower movepool.

Clefable doesn't appreciate char-x flare blitz's too much, and quaggy can wall char-x all day, not much can say that.

You are not answering my argument. I already cut that argument off at the head and agreed that Kyurem-B does murk stall. It was almost suspected at the end of Black/White 2 for a reason. It is a threat. However, I think these rankings should be based on the ability to be plugged into a team easily and work.

Okay Kyurem-B still murks stall, but doesn't Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Mega Heracross, etc, do it even better? That's debatable, but my point is it has competition. My argument for dropping Kyurem-B is not to say it is not effective at destroying stall because it is, but you cannot plug it into a team easily. I'm sorry. Lets look at what kyurem-b can switch into on the usage statistics...

#1 Rotom-W, volt switch or WoW, however, sub versions can switch into Hydro and sub. (Requires a lot of prediction which should not be factored into usage stats because these are supposed to be "easy" to use)
#2 Talonflame, with rocks BB 2hko's and it can u-turn
#3 Lucario lol not switching in on this
#4 Genesect UTurns or hits it with Iron Head...
#5 Aegislash Flash Cannon kills after rocks
#6 Heatran Its not switching in on a lava plume even if its got earthpower
#7 Garchomp, its slower otherwise it can switch in on an SD
#8 Greninja uturn
#9 Scizor not switching in
#10 Excadrill not switching in

Do you see my point? It can't safely switch into any of the top 10 pokemon without some serious prediction skill. How is that a pokemon that deserves A-rank. There are tons of good stall breakers. The difference is those other ones, in my opinion, are much easier to use.

Yes Kyurem-B is a powerhouse, and yes it recks stall, but its too slow to switch into most offensive pokemon, and its weak to rock, steel, fighting, fairy, and dragon. Please, don't say something like "well zard is weak to rock" Charizard is also immune to earthquake and easily switches in on heatran, genesect, scizor, Zard-X can come in on Rotom. My main point is that kyurem-b is outclassed by other stall breakers with ease of use such as charizard.

Char-y doesn't murk stall better than kyu-b, because you're still vulnerable to status without sub. Char-y can't even break through chansey unless it has flare blitz, and if it carries that, 1) much recoil 2)walled by heatran. Stall can survive against char-y as long as chansey is there, and chansey should be on every damn stall team no questions asked. Kyu-b can't do much back to chansey either, but atleast you can avoid toxic and hide behind a sub that can't be broken in one turn.

Comparing a single pokemon to the top #10 is so dumb lol. Lets take the current S ranking pokemon and see how they match up against top 10 used.

Lucario:
#1 Rotom-w you get burned if you're physical and it can take a hit and provide a safe switch-in w/ volt switch to a revenge killer if special. yay
#2 Talonflame can't switch in at all yay
#3 Lucario can't risk speed tie with opposing lucario yay
#4 Genesect just u-turns out or can flamethrower to revenge yay
#5 Aegislash shadow ball 2hko's and unboosted dark pulse doesn't yay
#6 Heatran Have to take a lava plume and risk the burn or risk just dying to offensive from fire blast yay
#7 Garchomp outspeeds before mega evo and could be scarfed or yache yay
#8 Greninja smacks me with LO hydro pump or just u-turns out yay
#9 Scizor oh finally something I can switch i-- oh u-turn/superpower yay
#10 Excadrill I die to eq yay

In spite of all this mega lucario is S rank for a reason. It's not all about how you just switch in to top 10, that's a very narrow and stupid way to judge a pokemon's viability. Do I need to elaborate on char-y or (lol) mega heracross?

Char-y isn't switching in on half the things you listed because 1) rocks and 2) most of the things it can switch in on are pivoting straight out, leaving you at less than 50%. Charizard isn't easier to use than kyu-b, kyu-b can switch in a lot more things and has much more useful resistances which you totally ignored, like resistances to electric, grass, and water, all extremely common special attacking moves (bar grass)

I'm gonna agree that Ky-B should be in A-... It is 2HKOed by mega-lucario vacuum wave? That makes it easy to revenge kill, if you somehow don't have any faster pokemon in this blazing fast metagame. Steel moves are more popular now, too, because of fairy type. If Ky-B is A, why isn't it popular? Personally, I haven't had much success throwing it on my team willy-nilly. The post about Aegislash vs Freeze Shock Ky-B made me laugh, I hope that was the point.

The metagame is not "blazing fast," if anything it has slowed down with the introduction to aegislash and fairy azumarill, along with the increasing popularity of rotom-w, lando-t, and mandibuzz.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to question why gyarados mega is in A. From the set I've used (taunt, dd, waterfall, eq, holding gyaradosite) it has produced quite underwhelming results. I rarely sweep with it, find water/ground coverage pretty bad, and notice that it is easy to revenge kill with common scarfers like genesect, terrakion, and even deo-s. I've never really swept with it and have never been swept by it. He has no recovery but decent defenses, further compounded by no recovery and a weakness to mach punch/vacuum wave. It can't even break conkeldurr at +1 without a lot of prior damage, and even without it its gonna eat a mach punch before proceeding.

If you're normal gyarados, well, you're totally cockblocked by the ever-so-common rotom-w. Being totally countered by the most used pokemon in the OU metagame is not worthy of A ranking. A bulky dd gyarados will probably not work for the same reasons, its just done better by a lot of other pokemon, like char-x or dnite.

If nobody can provide some decent reasoning as to why gyarados(-mega) is A, then I will gladly nominate gyarados (-mega) for B+

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Why are we talking about offensive pokemon switching into things? Lucario and Kyurem are dangerous because things can't switch into them, not that they can switch into things. As a wall breaker, Kyurem clearly deserves a high rank because of it sheer power, I don't see what all this other nonsense is about

 

[November Blue]

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to question why gyarados mega is in A. From the set I've used (taunt, dd, waterfall, eq, holding gyaradosite) it has produced quite underwhelming results. I rarely sweep with it, find water/ground coverage pretty bad, and notice that it is easy to revenge kill with common scarfers like genesect, terrakion, and even deo-s. I've never really swept with it and have never been swept by it. He has no recovery but decent defenses, further compounded by no recovery and a weakness to mach punch/vacuum wave. It can't even break conkeldurr at +1 without a lot of prior damage, and even without it its gonna eat a mach punch before proceeding.

If you're normal gyarados, well, you're totally cockblocked by the ever-so-common rotom-w. Being totally countered by the most used pokemon in the OU metagame is not worthy of A ranking. A bulky dd gyarados will probably not work for the same reasons, its just done better by a lot of other pokemon, like char-x or dnite.

If nobody can provide some decent reasoning as to why gyarados(-mega) is A, then I will gladly nominate gyarados (-mega) for B+

It sounds as though you're not using it correctly. I'm not an expert on Gyara, but I know that most sets run Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Earthquake / Ice Fang.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%)

The trick to using Mega Gyarados is to hold off on the Mega Evolution until the time is right. If your opponent has a Genesect ready to switch in, DD without Mega Evolving. U-turn will do nothing. Then, when your opponent is starting to believe that you might not be Mega and brings in Foul Play Mandibuzz, switch to Dark type and blast it.

Gyarados exemplifies the sort of Pokemon that shines in a high-prediction, variable environment. It's flexible, and can adapt to its situation. It's not Gyarados and better Gyarados, it's two formes.

 

[Rotosect]

If team preview didn't give it away, your opponent will instantly guess that you're running Mega Gyarados the second he notices the lack of Leftovers recovery. The only way you can bluff it is by avoiding taking any kind of damage before setting up, which is easier said than done.

 

[RufflesPro]

Since Chansey is B+ rank

Nominating Blissey to B rank

Blissey as always does the job of walling special sweepers greatly, and now that Fighting type is less common then last gen (Still common though) it does things better. With the introduction of new special attackers to wall and some new walls to wear down: Greninja, Mega Manectric, Special Mega Luc, Special Aegislash, Mega Char Y, Florges, Goodra, Mega Gardevior, Mega Blastiose, Sylveon, Mega Alakazam. with some Uber pokemon being in OU: Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Tornadus-T, Special Genesect, Manaphy, Deoxys-S. And finally with the previous special pokemons, Blissey has a lot more use.

It also has Leftovers unlike Chansey. It can be a cleric with Aromatherapy, it can wear down walls with Toxic + Wish + Protect, tank hits and retaliate with Seismic toss, cripple sweepers with Thunder Wave, lay down SR, pass HUGE Wishes to teammates, and finally can carry Fire Blast to wear down the likes of Ferrothorn and Foretress.

However, unlike Chansey, Blissey cannot take physical hits as easy, and will lose to the common pokes: Physical Mega Lucario, Mixed/Physical Aegislash, Talonflame, CharX, Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, Excadrill, Azumarill, Mega Mawile, etc. while Chansey can last more and Blissey's stuff more efficiently, it can also do stuff like Counter.

All in all, Chansey is only slightly better than Blissey, I think Blissey is good in B.

Also: Nominating Crawdaunt to B- rank

This thing can run everything, SD/DD LO, CB, And All-Out. It also appreciates rain support.


+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 255-302 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 343-406 (121.2 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 585-689 (83 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 567-671 (186.5 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Overkill)
And Aqua Jet is also extremely powerful.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 268-317 (102.2 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 268-317 (98.5 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-229 (63.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-229 (79.3 - 94.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even Mega Venosaur is not a safe switch in

After DD:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 242-286 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

After DD in Rain:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur in Rain: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

After SD:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 322-380 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm surprised this thing is not ranked yet.

 

[Mood4food77]

while crawdaunt is incredibly powerful, his role as a stupidly strong water type is eclipsed by azumarill

while different in power and typing, they do fill similar roles and with azumarill's bulk and excellent typing, he has a lot more switch-in opportunities than crawdaunt does (basically, he's not relegated to only coming in on a revenge kill basically)

 

[Always!]

while crawdaunt is incredibly powerful, his role as a stupidly strong water type is eclipsed by azumarill

while different in power and typing, they do fill similar roles and with azumarill's bulk and excellent typing, he has a lot more switch-in opportunities than crawdaunt does (basically, he's not relegated to only coming in on a revenge kill basically)

Azumarill has no 100% safe way to boost its attack and/or speed barring Choice, while Crawdaunt does.

Just some food for thought. Azumarill has better bulk however.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Since Chansey is B+ rank

Nominating Blissey to B rank

Blissey as always does the job of walling special sweepers greatly, and now that Fighting type is less common then last gen (Still common though) it does things better. With the introduction of new special attackers to wall and some new walls to wear down: Greninja, Mega Manectric, Special Mega Luc, Special Aegislash, Mega Char Y, Florges, Goodra, Mega Gardevior, Mega Blastiose, Sylveon, Mega Alakazam. with some Uber pokemon being in OU: Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Tornadus-T, Special Genesect, Manaphy, Deoxys-S. And finally with the previous special pokemons, Blissey has a lot more use.

It also has Leftovers unlike Chansey. It can be a cleric with Aromatherapy, it can wear down walls with Toxic + Wish + Protect, tank hits and retaliate with Seismic toss, cripple sweepers with Thunder Wave, lay down SR, pass HUGE Wishes to teammates, and finally can carry Fire Blast to wear down the likes of Ferrothorn and Foretress.

However, unlike Chansey, Blissey cannot take physical hits as easy, and will lose to the common pokes: Physical Mega Lucario, Mixed/Physical Aegislash, Talonflame, CharX, Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, Excadrill, Azumarill, Mega Mawile, etc. while Chansey can last more and Blissey's stuff more efficiently, it can also do stuff like Counter.

All in all, Chansey is only slightly better than Blissey, I think Blissey is good in B.

Also: Nominating Crawdaunt to B- rank

This thing can run everything, SD/DD LO, CB, And All-Out. It also appreciates rain support.


+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 255-302 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 343-406 (121.2 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 585-689 (83 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 567-671 (186.5 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Overkill)
And Aqua Jet is also extremely powerful.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 268-317 (102.2 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 268-317 (98.5 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-229 (63.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-229 (79.3 - 94.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even Mega Venosaur is not a safe switch in

After DD:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 242-286 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

After DD in Rain:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur in Rain: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

After SD:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 322-380 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm surprised this thing is not ranked yet.

A couple questions,

Where'd that +1 come from? Rain support I can understand, but something like Crawdaunt rarely gets a chance to boost, so it ever getting a DD off is impossible to assume.

Why are people still assuming SR support is a guarentee? So many teams have no problem getting rid of SR that I don't think you should EVER include it in a calc. A side note, "that's a OHKO if you have SR up!" is fine, but besides that, no.

And, why didn't you mention his competition who arguably outclass it?

Since a lot of those calcs rely on SR support AND rain support, I think asking B- from those examples is way too much. He has viability, but I was thinking in the C range

 

[RufflesPro]

A couple questions,

Where'd that +1 come from? Rain support I can understand, but something like Crawdaunt rarely gets a chance to boost, so it ever getting a DD off is impossible to assume.

Why are people still assuming SR support is a guarentee? So many teams have no problem getting rid of SR that I don't think you should EVER include it in a calc. A side note, "that's a OHKO if you have SR up!" is fine, but besides that, no.

And, why didn't you mention his competition who arguably outclass it?

Since a lot of those calcs rely on SR support AND rain support, I think asking B- from those examples is way too much. He has viability, but I was thinking in the C range

Crawdunt forces a lot of switches, for example: You are not keeping your Blissey on a Crawdunt, and if you are Chansey, you don't want your item to be Knocked off, I have forced many switches only for the fear of Knock Off. It needs heavy prediction, but that goes for every dancer.

It's hypothetical, I included them because there's a difference when you are doing 90% and 60%. SR Shows difference, there's a lot of the calcs that OHKO without SR anyways.

I'm sorry I didn't mention it, but the only reason I put him in B- is because he is outclassed by Azumarill.

ONLY 1 calc relied on Rain support, I mentioned the reason for SR support.

Also my calcs are against walls, other than Mega Venosaur, you are outspeeding them, assuming you're at +0 and they are switching, you hit they lost 80-90%, then next turn you outspeed and kill.

Assuming 1v1, you can either 2HKO, or DD + 1-2HKO, since they are walls, really they can do nothing aside from burn, recover, do something (Spikes, Toxic, Trick Room), or Seismic Toss/Night Shade/Foul Play. You win in the end, and if you play it right, you get +1 out of it.

And again since they are walls, Knock off cripples them, so even if they magically kill you, they are crippled and you can just throw in something that can set up.

Mega Venosaur wins in every case unless he is switching in and you have +1/Rain. So really I see only Mega Venosaur walling, this thing is a slow nuke, getting DD is mediocrely hard, but not extremely hard as you imply.

The reason IMO it's not C+ is because it is not heavily outclassed by Azumarill.

Also you can think of +1 the same cals as the CB set.

 

[Jin White]

I'd like to question why gyarados mega is in A. From the set I've used (taunt, dd, waterfall, eq, holding gyaradosite) it has produced quite underwhelming results. I rarely sweep with it, find water/ground coverage pretty bad, and notice that it is easy to revenge kill with common scarfers like genesect, terrakion, and even deo-s. I've never really swept with it and have never been swept by it. He has no recovery but decent defenses, further compounded by no recovery and a weakness to mach punch/vacuum wave. It can't even break conkeldurr at +1 without a lot of prior damage, and even without it its gonna eat a mach punch before proceeding.

If nobody can provide some decent reasoning as to why gyarados(-mega) is A, then I will gladly nominate gyarados (-mega) for B+

If team preview didn't give it away, your opponent will instantly guess that you're running Mega Gyarados the second he notices the lack of Leftovers recovery. The only way you can bluff it is by avoiding taking any kind of damage before setting up, which is easier said than done.

It's not about bluffing, it's about using Gyarados' variable typing to your own advantage. It makes setting up that much easier: switching in on a EQ, Mega Evolving and DDing on the incoming Stone Edge, as an example. With Intimidate in its base form, and superb 95/109/135 defenses as its Mega, you're doing something wrong if you can't find an opportunity to set up once or even twice.

Offensively, base 155 attack paired with Mold Breaker lets it sweep significant portions of the metagame as its A rank suggests. Notable Mold Breaker hits include Rotom-W with Earthquake, Multiscale Dragonite with Ice Fang, and Thick Fat Venusaur with Ice Fang. Obviously it has its checks and counters (Ferrothorn) and like nearly any sweeper it's susceptible to being revenged by a fast and powerful scarfer, which is why Mega Gyarados makes for a devastating late-game sweep and not for a blind button-mash on Turn 1.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Crawdunt forces a lot of switches, for example: You are not keeping your Blissey on a Crawdunt, and if you are Chansey, you don't want your item to be Knocked off, I have forced many switches only for the fear of Knock Off. It needs heavy prediction, but that goes for every dancer.

It's hypothetical, I included them because there's a difference when you are doing 90% and 60%. SR Shows difference, there's a lot of the calcs that OHKO without SR anyways.

I'm sorry I didn't mention it, but the only reason I put him in B- is because he is outclassed by Azumarill.

ONLY 1 calc relied on Rain support, I mentioned the reason for SR support.

Also my calcs are against walls, other than Mega Venosaur, you are outspeeding them, assuming you're at +0 and they are switching, you hit they lost 80-90%, then next turn you outspeed and kill.

Assuming 1v1, you can either 2HKO, or DD + 1-2HKO, since they are walls, really they can do nothing aside from burn, recover, do something (Spikes, Toxic, Trick Room), or Seismic Toss/Night Shade/Foul Play. You win in the end, and if you play it right, you get +1 out of it.

And again since they are walls, Knock off cripples them, so even if they magically kill you, they are crippled and you can just throw in something that can set up.

Mega Venosaur wins in every case unless he is switching in and you have +1/Rain. So really I see only Mega Venosaur walling, this thing is a slow nuke, getting DD is mediocrely hard, but not extremely hard as you imply.

The reason IMO it's not C+ is because it is not heavily outclassed by Azumarill.

Also you can think of +1 the same cals as the CB set.

I said needs rain support because of the +1, because I don't agree you can EVER assume the DD.

Anyway, most decent physical attackers force Blissey out, plus, Special Walls just aren't that common anymore, instead being used are specially defensive tanks like Tyranitar and Goodra, both of which are threats to Crawdaunt

252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 211-249 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 546-645 (135.1 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 310-366 (115.6 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 382-452 (99.4 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Can it KO either of them? Yes, but you can't assume the switch, so you can't reliably boost, so you can't assume you'll get a +1. Since there's so many better, more reliable set up sweepers, I don't know why you'd ever use Crawdaunt for that. I personally like his CB aqua jets, which can revenge kill and punch holes in teams, while CB knock offs and crab hammers wall break. That role is deserving of a C/C+ (still pretty much overshadowed by Azumarill)

 

[Antibiotic]

What's the justification for Krookodile being B tier?

 

[RufflesPro]

Crawdunt outspeeds both of them (with max speed) so it shouldn't get any previous damage. 55 Speed is actually better than you think, as with 252 Speed Adamant you are outspeeding neutral speed base 86. So you are outspeeding Bulky Rotom-W.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

And I did say in the post YOU JUST QUOTED, that even without assuming Rain, SR, or DD, you are winning against walls.

CB Set is probably more reliable thnx to powerful Aqua jet, but DD set is still very good.

Obviously there are more reliable set-up sweepers, am I saying Crawdaunt is best DDer and outclasses CharX in that category? No, but however Char X doesn't fulfill the same role.

The only pokemon that has a SIMILAR role to Crawdaunt is Azumarill, and he is not, as you imply, completely eclipsed by Azumarill, as STAB knock off is extremely handy, for utility or for damage.

I also want to know if you used Crawdaunt this gen before, did it really not do the job? For me it did, I run DD set.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

What's the justification for Krookodile being B tier?

buffed defense+intimidate+decent support movepool (stealth rock, knock off, taunt) means he is a pretty good support/physical tank poke
he can also do that earthquake spamming moxie set but other moxie users do that better imo.

 

[Mood4food77]

Crawdunt outspeeds both of them (with max speed) so it shouldn't get any previous damage. 55 Speed is actually better than you think, as with 252 Speed Adamant you are outspeeding neutral speed base 86. So you are outspeeding Bulky Rotom-W.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

And I did say in the post YOU JUST QUOTED, that even without assuming Rain, SR, or DD, you are winning against walls.

CB Set is probably more reliable thnx to powerful Aqua jet, but DD set is still very good.

Obviously there are more reliable set-up sweepers, am I saying Crawdaunt is best DDer and outclasses CharX in that category? No, but however Char X doesn't fulfill the same role.

The only pokemon that has a SIMILAR role to Crawdaunt is Azumarill, and he is not, as you imply, completely eclipsed by Azumarill, as STAB knock off is extremely handy, for utility or for damage.

I also want to know if you used Crawdaunt this gen before, did it really not do the job? For me it did, I run DD set.

it's not entirely outclassed by azumarill, but azu can fill the role of a high powered water type who can revenge kill on top of being a dragon killer, you can really put azumarill on any team in place of crawdaunt and have very similar results

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Crawdunt outspeeds both of them (with max speed) so it shouldn't get any previous damage. 55 Speed is actually better than you think, as with 252 Speed Adamant you are outspeeding neutral speed base 86. So you are outspeeding Bulky Rotom-W.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

And I did say in the post YOU JUST QUOTED, that even without assuming Rain, SR, or DD, you are winning against walls.

CB Set is probably more reliable thnx to powerful Aqua jet, but DD set is still very good.

Obviously there are more reliable set-up sweepers, am I saying Crawdaunt is best DDer and outclasses CharX in that category? No, but however Char X doesn't fulfill the same role.

The only pokemon that has a SIMILAR role to Crawdaunt is Azumarill, and he is not, as you imply, completely eclipsed by Azumarill, as STAB knock off is extremely handy, for utility or for damage.

I also want to know if you used Crawdaunt this gen before, did it really not do the job? For me it did, I run DD set.

I conceded its a decent wall breaker, when I tested it, it did well and was worth running some of the time over Azumarill (even if Azumarill has better utility overall). When I tested DD, I was constantly taking significant damage from pokemon that should be afraid of it, to be revenge killed by a scarfer, priority, or just a fast pokemon (after 1 DD, you're still outsped by full investment base 94 and up). I found it unreliable, and generally not useful. There's a reason DD didn't get an analysis in the OU analysis thread.

Like Mood4food77 said, there's very little incentive to use it over Azumarill (its a better wall breaker, but not enough that you can afford to ignore all the areas Azumarill outclasses it), so I'm sticking with C/C+ (I don't really care about specific ranks, as long as they accurately communicate its viability and don't have similarly viable pokemon in different ranks)

 

[Srn]

It sounds as though you're not using it correctly. I'm not an expert on Gyara, but I know that most sets run Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Earthquake / Ice Fang.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%)

The trick to using Mega Gyarados is to hold off on the Mega Evolution until the time is right. If your opponent has a Genesect ready to switch in, DD without Mega Evolving. U-turn will do nothing. Then, when your opponent is starting to believe that you might not be Mega and brings in Foul Play Mandibuzz, switch to Dark type and blast it.

Gyarados exemplifies the sort of Pokemon that shines in a high-prediction, variable environment. It's flexible, and can adapt to its situation. It's not Gyarados and better Gyarados, it's two formes.

Wouldn't a genesect just thunderbolt either way? I like taunt better as it grants more set up oppurtunities but ice fang is good coverage for dragons I suppose.
But either way, I don't think it was dragons stopping me from sweeping. He's just a tad too frail uninvested, still outsped by many scarfers even at +1, and not strong enough at +1. water/dark just doesn't have many resists to set up on, I just don't like him :(

It's not about bluffing, it's about using Gyarados' variable typing to your own advantage. It makes setting up that much easier: switching in on a EQ, Mega Evolving and DDing on the incoming Stone Edge, as an example. With Intimidate in its base form, and superb 95/109/135 defenses as its Mega, you're doing something wrong if you can't find an opportunity to set up once or even twice.

Offensively, base 155 attack paired with Mold Breaker lets it sweep significant portions of the metagame as its A rank suggests. Notable Mold Breaker hits include Rotom-W with Earthquake, Multiscale Dragonite with Ice Fang, and Thick Fat Venusaur with Ice Fang. Obviously it has its checks and counters (Ferrothorn) and like nearly any sweeper it's susceptible to being revenged by a fast and powerful scarfer, which is why Mega Gyarados makes for a devastating late-game sweep and not for a blind button-mash on Turn 1.

You say that he has superb defenses, but that requires that you invest significantly into that. Meanwhile, your speed stat is really the one suffering here, and I don't like it at all.I have indeed been attempting to set up late-game, and he just hasn't been working out for me.

However, the points that you brought up are quite valid, and gyarados DOES bust through rotom-w/lando-t cores, which is always nice. Regardless I still don't think that's enough to put you into A rank when you're hampered by your sub-par speed and the presence of conkeldurr. But I might try to give him another go :/

Crawdunt outspeeds both of them (with max speed) so it shouldn't get any previous damage. 55 Speed is actually better than you think, as with 252 Speed Adamant you are outspeeding neutral speed base 86. So you are outspeeding Bulky Rotom-W.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

And I did say in the post YOU JUST QUOTED, that even without assuming Rain, SR, or DD, you are winning against walls.

CB Set is probably more reliable thnx to powerful Aqua jet, but DD set is still very good.

Obviously there are more reliable set-up sweepers, am I saying Crawdaunt is best DDer and outclasses CharX in that category? No, but however Char X doesn't fulfill the same role.

The only pokemon that has a SIMILAR role to Crawdaunt is Azumarill, and he is not, as you imply, completely eclipsed by Azumarill, as STAB knock off is extremely handy, for utility or for damage.

I also want to know if you used Crawdaunt this gen before, did it really not do the job? For me it did, I run DD set.

I like the CB set, but I've used both (on a rain team), and I can say the LO set is better. It gets all the power you really need out of him and can function pretty well with crabhammer/knock off + aqua jet, which you couldn't do with the band. Even though the band set hits harder and has stronger priority, you have crappy defenses and put a lot of pressure on your pivot just cuz you couldn't finish off, say, that conk that barely lived crabhammer.

 

[RufflesPro]

The reason I like Crawdaunt is that, unlike Azumarill, it actually outspeeds stuff (252 Spe 55 base speed > 0 Spe 60 base speed), can outspeed a LOT after DD, Knock off is MUCH better than Play Rough IMO, you actually survived knock off? well your item is no longer available, which provides a lot of support to the team, I know Azumarill can learn Knock Off, but outside of AV set, it probably isn't worth it.

Azumarill is downright stopped by anything that is higher than base 60, can survive CB Aqua Jet, and can OHKO back (Unless he is 3HKO by Aqua Jet and he 2HKO Azumarill, it's the same thing), which is a lot common, Rotom-W, Roserade, Venosaur, Breloom, Char Y, Tentacruel (Yes a SPECIAL WALL), Celebi, etc.

Crawdaunt can do SOMETHING to them if they are on switch-in (And some even in 1v1 situation), and if you have DD beforehand, all would be dead, but Azumarill can only take care of Char Y after Belly Drum. Even if Knock off miraculously only did 5%, you knocked off the item.

You may be not bulky, and slow, but once you get DD, or you are flat out CB, you are doing a LOT.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is REALLY saying something. And btw you outspeed uninvested Mega Venosaur so yeah you also actually KILL mega venusaur. Something Azumarill can probably never dream of.

Azumarill usually doesn't carry Ice Punch but still:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now I'm not saying Crawdaunt > Azumarill, whoa there, but I'm saying that Crawdaunt is NOT completely eclipsed by Azumarill.

Mood4food77 said that it's not completely outclassed by Azu, and then you agree with him and put it at C, which is for pokemon who are completely eclipsed by an A pokemon.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I conceded its a decent wall breaker, when I tested it, it did well and was worth running some of the time over Azumarill (even if Azumarill has better utility overall). When I tested DD, I was constantly taking significant damage from pokemon that should be afraid of it, to be revenge killed by a scarfer, priority, or just a fast pokemon (after 1 DD, you're still outsped by full investment base 94 and up). I found it unreliable, and generally not useful. There's a reason DD didn't get an analysis in the OU analysis thread.

Like Mood4food77 said, there's very little incentive to use it over Azumarill (its a better wall breaker, but not enough that you can afford to ignore all the areas Azumarill outclasses it), so I'm sticking with C/C+ (I don't really care about specific ranks, as long as they accurately communicate its viability and don't have similarly viable pokemon in different ranks)

Its STAB moves hit harder than Azumarill, so that is something it's not totally eclipsed in.

 

[Salemance]

I myself use CB Crawdaunt, and while I sometimes wish for the ability to switch moves, the beauty of Crunch, Knock Off, Crabhammer, and Aqua Jet is always crazy between Knock Off hitting the Mega pokes hard to 2HKOing Physical walls with Crabhammer/Knock Off.

As I believe it was said on the Crawdaunt thread, overall he is outclassed as a dragon dancer by Gyarados in bulk and speed while Craw has the power on the serpent. Craw to Azumarill is mainly Azumarill has more opportunities to switch in due to having a better overall typing with better bulk. So while Craw is stronger due to his above average Attack stat and Adaptability, he would be one to find it harder to switch in then Azumarill thus making the blue rabbit a more likely choice.

That's where the discussion usually ends though. Craw's power is resisted by very few things, ironically Azumarill and Mega Dos, but often is able to hurt those that resist him for a terrifying amount. Observe:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Thus crippling that crazy thing while making it take a lot of damage just for coming in on a resisted hit. Course you would switch, but the damage is done.

Tbt, yes he hurts like a hammer coming down on an ant, but he doesn't get to be that high on the rankings I think mainly due to his speed. He can run max speed, but usually for a Choice Band set you would want max hp thus meaning a speed would be an even bigger problem. Then ya could just go Dragon Dance, but he then cant take a lot of hits well as he is almost assuredly OHKOed by all priority minus CB Bullet Punch which becomes a 3HKO (which is pretty damn good).

Over all he is a great Pokémon that is almost high risk high reward. His ranking seems difficult to judge though........ B- at best, C+ at worst I think just for the idea of power vs bulk/speed he has with the other two he is ultimately always compared too.

EDIT:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Actually, if you want to gawk at the Knock Off power, look at this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 226-268 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is generally what I thought his choiced sets ran (or mine does I guess, been awhile since I saw another banded Daunt), admittably not much more of an improvement (65 to 80 afterall), but every little bit helps.

Oh and one benefit of running Max HP is this funny enough if you go back a few pages:
24 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 252-299 (94 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

It now has a chance to live it (which mine did, causing the guy to post this for me XD)