Pokémon Charizard

[Jin White]

Please, dear friends, tell me what you do when there's a Charizard Y in front of you. Who in this metagame gets a safe switch-in? Let's say it's running Fire Blast / Solar Beam / Focus Blast / Dragon Pulse for that perfect coverage, and that you're playing a competent trainer who's not going to Solarbeam your incoming Tyranitar. Here's the best safe switches I can come up with:

- Chansey/Blissey (you survive good job)
- AV/Lefties Goodra (you survive good job - Dragon Pulse is only a 4HKO/3HKO respectively)
- AV TTar (nope, 2HKOd by Focus Blast in sand wtf)
- Heatran (nope, 2HKOd by Focus Blast)
- Multiscale Dragonite (nope, 2HKOd by Dragon Pulse)
- Latias (nope, 2HKOd by Dragon Pulse)

Prediction games aside, the only reliable switch-ins under any circumstance I've got are Chansey/Blissey and Goodra. That can't be right. Who do you go to when there's this most beautiful and terrifying nuke standing in front of you? Do you have to opt to sac a mon and revenge, with Rocks pressure? Sure, something like Latios can come in and threaten it out, but it takes over 50% and does just that: lets Charizard Y switch out. I'm wondering what can actually switch in safely to Zard Y, all things considered.

EDIT: we must dig deeper

- Politoed (you survive good job! 3HKOd at best, and wrecks two of Zard Y's most potent moves)
- Specially Defensive Rotom-H (3HKOd at best; cripples with T-wave, 2HKOs with Volt Switch/T-Bolt)

 

[Vengeance417]

Please, dear friends, tell me what you do when there's a Charizard Y in front of you. Who in this metagame gets a safe switch-in? Let's say it's running Fire Blast / Solar Beam / Focus Blast / Dragon Pulse for that perfect coverage, and that you're playing a competent trainer who's not going to Solarbeam your incoming Tyranitar. Here's the best safe switches I can come up with:

- Chansey/Blissey (you survive good job)
- AV/Lefties Goodra (you survive good job - Dragon Pulse is only a 4HKO/3HKO respectively)
- AV TTar (nope, 2HKOd by Focus Blast in sand wtf)
- Heatran (nope, 2HKOd by Focus Blast)
- Multiscale Dragonite (nope, 2HKOd by Dragon Pulse)
- Latias (nope, 2HKOd by Dragon Pulse)

Prediction games aside, the only reliable switch-ins under any circumstance I've got are Chansey/Blissey and Goodra. That can't be right. Who do you go to do when there's this most beautiful and terrifying nuke standing in front of you? Do you have to opt to sac a mon and revenge, with Rocks pressure? Sure, something like Latios can come in and threaten it out, but it takes over 50% and does just that: lets Charizard Y switch out. I'm wondering what can actually switch in safely to Zard Y, all things considered.

You did say predictions aside, but I don't see Mega Y ever using Dragon Pulse for neutral damage over a sun-boosted Fire Blast, unless it's predicting a switch into a Dragon type. This makes faster mons like Scarfchomp or specially bulky Pokemon like AV T-Tar able to come in on a Fire Blast (hoping it doesn't burn them, of course) and force it out with threats of Stone Edge.

It's unorthodox, but Goodra has a pretty wide physical movepool to exploit Mega Y's weak Defense. It has Outrage, for example, if you're bold enough to use it.

 

[alexwolf]

AV Slowking (252 HP / 252 SpD+) is a good check, taking only ~20% from Timid Fire Blast in sun, and 35 - 41.6% from SolarBeam. While it can't do much back other than phaze it with Dragon Tail, it can act as a great pivot for it, luring SolarBeam so that your fast checks can come in, and stalling for a few sun turns.

SpD Moltres is a perfect counter to it, taking only 33.6 - 39.9% from Timid Fire Blast in sun with 248 HP / 216 SpD+, and Toxic stalling it, though you need SR off the field.

SpD Tentacruel is a perfect counter to Focus Blast Mega Char Y, taking only 27.1 - 32.1% from Timid Fire Blast in sun, and if you use it on a rain team, it never dies (Rain Dish), while also acting as a pivot to bring Politoed in safely. It is easily 2HKOed by EQ variants though (EQ > Focus Blast if you go with 4 attacks).

Finally, bulky Mega Charizard X (max HP, rest is up preference) avoids the 2HKO from any of Dragon Pulse-less Mega Char Y's moves as long as SR is off the field, and easily 2HKOes back with Dragon Claw, or does 72% minimum with uninvested ThunderPunch.

 

[Vengeance417]

I had a game yesterday that perfectly demonstrates the awesomeness that is Bulky Will-o-Wisp Mega X:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-81030994

His EVs and moveset are posted in this thread already, but I'll post them here again for convenience:

136 HP/ 120 Atk / 252 Spe, Jolly Nature

Will-o-Wisp
Roost
Flare Blitz
Dragon Claw

In this battle, after burning an Excadrill, he only took 21% damage from Rock Slide, something that would have OHKO'd Mega Y or normal Zard. That's incredible, if you ask me.

Again, he can't do jack to Heatran, so I have a Jolly Mamoswine on my team for that situation.

 

[Fresher Than You]

I've been trying out the MixedX set, and it kicks ass. Although the 4MSS holds i back a bit, it's more of a case of what would you prefer to be walled by? Togekiss or Heatran? I'd advise EQ > Thunder Punch in general, since Char can now blast through CeleTran cores with it. Technically, forgoing Dragon Claw may be an option, so now both of them and other similar checks, but c'mon, who wants to pass out on such a powerful STAB? I also prefer overheat over Fire Blast, mainly because I like screwing over defensive fairies a little more. I guess the extra power isn't all that important, and i do like consistency, so I'd suggest Fire Blast > Overheat, despite my own preferences. Overall, I highly recommend giving the two fingers up to physical walls with this one, and urge you a try.

Defog or spinning is essential for long lastivity and more chances to rip things apart. Pokemon like Exca, Celebi, Skarmory or Jellicent / Rotom-W are all great partners (hence why I use multiple off them). Jellicent and Rotom make Heatran less usable, as well has giving other Ground types like Lando (which love coming in and lowering CharX's attack back down again) a much harder time doing any real damage. Exca, if you can take an extra Ground Weakness, is a great partner, spitting on Fairies with Iron Head and spinning away those Rocks. It also works wonders on Defensive heatran, something that CharX lacking EQ will Struggle to 3HKO after one boost. Although, neither Exca or CharX can take on Specs or Scarf variants without considerable risk. Mega Luke, while struggilign against CharX itself, can wreak absolute havoc with it's partners. With the steel nerf, Skarm is 2HKo'd by Dark Pulse, Celebi can survive a few unboosted Flash Cannons but can't really do much back on defensive sets. CharX can however scare it out 80% of the time, and if you manage to get a few boosts in, will guarantee a OHKO with almost any of it's moves. Gliscor can wall CharX to an extent, but normally fails to outspeed with the taunt and allows it a few boost, after which Gliscor can be 2HKO'd with no effort, OHKO if under 75% health.

Now, please go wreck everything you see on my behalf? TBM wills it :P.

 

[DarkPhoton]

For competitive use it's completely irrelevant of course but I would just like to post a couple findings that I've been utilizing to "surprise" some opponents with Charizard Y. Remember this is just me sharing something that I tested on ladder and with the damage calc after that is interesting and a surprise tactic against certain opponents! It's not for competitive purposes.

With Blast Burn! It's basically the fire type Hyper Beam, but in the sun it absolutely destroys with the STAB+Sun boost factor. I was able to OHKO quite a few pokemon that I otherwise wouldn't be able to, obviously only used at the end of Charizard Y's usage (when there's nothing else I can switch into and he's fainting next turn or soon). It's almost like a final Fire Explosion before I go down.

Some surprising scenarios when I was battling on ladder and after confirmed with the damage calc:
When I had Charizard Y left against Infernape, Thunder Punch fails to OHKO and Blast Burn in sun actually OHKOes infernape and does so 75% of the time.
It has 20% chance to OHKO gyrados after stealth rocks if he happened to switch into a predicted fire blast to threaten me with stone edge.
It OHKOes Greninja without needing to resort to Solar Beam incase he goes for Dark Pulse instead of Hydro Pump (if Greninja goes for Dark Pulse solar beam fails to OHKO and Greninja preceeds to KO after, I see many opponents doing this to prevent getting killed by Solar Beam, so usualy you need to predict if he will hydro pump or dark pulse).
Finally either against switch ins of Talonflame or if Talonflame comes in after Charizard Y faints another pokemon, Blast Burn OHKOes Talonflame 87.5% of the time.

There are other instances where my charizard was going down so I unleashed Blast Burn to hit so hard that my follow up pokemon had much easier times thereafter.

In the end I retained Focus Blast and sometimes Earthquake as that is the most competitive move but I just wanted to share this slightly hilarious but surprising power with this new move. I guess we got to take full advantage of that Drought and fire stab don't we?

 

[DaiGuren]

Has anybody here tried doing a double-fire attacking core consisting of ZardY and Entei? Kind of like a double dragon/bird core. Imo ZardY and Entei are some of the more potent wallbreakers this gen, with CB Entei's Sacred Fire 2HKOing physically defensive Rotom-W in the sun, just to showcase a bit of its power.

Just an idea.

Or maybe pair Entei with ZardX, get Entei to weaken opp's team, Dugtrio to trap Flash Fire users, and then ready the stage for ZardX to sweep.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

- Multiscale Dragonite (nope, 2HKOd by Dragon Pulse)

What spread? I wonder if WP and Extreme speed would be a good check? I don't really encounter any YZard's with Dragon Pulse though.

- Heatran (nope, 2HKOd by Focus Blast)

I really don't understand why people would try to switch in Heatran anyway. Even when Heatran gets in for free he can't really do anything and has to tremble in fear of FB and EQ.

 

[DarkPhoton]

Has anybody here tried doing a double-fire attacking core consisting of ZardY and Entei? Kind of like a double dragon/bird core. Imo ZardY and Entei are some of the more potent wallbreakers this gen, with CB Entei's Sacred Fire 2HKOing physically defensive Rotom-W in the sun, just to showcase a bit of its power.

Just an idea.

Or maybe pair Entei with ZardX, get Entei to weaken opp's team, Dugtrio to trap Flash Fire users, and then ready the stage for ZardX to sweep.

Yes in my long testing of Entei's new prowess in OU I was using him half the time in my dual Fire Core of Charizard Y and Entei. I had mandibuzz as a defogger and physical wall / support. It worked extremely well, but you do have to becareful about those hazards and make sure you get them off because they are both weak to stealth rock. Charizard Y and Entei cover both special and physical sides of wall breaking so its a good pair to have.

 

[Karxrida]

For competitive use it's completely irrelevant of course but I would just like to post a couple findings that I've been utilizing to "surprise" some opponents with Charizard Y. Remember this is just me sharing something that I tested on ladder and with the damage calc after that is interesting and a surprise tactic against certain opponents! It's not for competitive purposes.

With Blast Burn! It's basically the fire type Hyper Beam, but in the sun it absolutely destroys with the STAB+Sun boost factor. I was able to OHKO quite a few pokemon that I otherwise wouldn't be able to, obviously only used at the end of Charizard Y's usage (when there's nothing else I can switch into and he's fainting next turn or soon). It's almost like a final Fire Explosion before I go down.

Some surprising scenarios when I was battling on ladder and after confirmed with the damage calc:
When I had Charizard Y left against Infernape, Thunder Punch fails to OHKO and Blast Burn in sun actually OHKOes infernape and does so 75% of the time.
It has 20% chance to OHKO gyrados after stealth rocks if he happened to switch into a predicted fire blast to threaten me with stone edge.
It OHKOes Greninja without needing to resort to Solar Beam incase he goes for Dark Pulse instead of Hydro Pump (if Greninja goes for Dark Pulse solar beam fails to OHKO and Greninja preceeds to KO after, I see many opponents doing this to prevent getting killed by Solar Beam, so usualy you need to predict if he will hydro pump or dark pulse).
Finally either against switch ins of Talonflame or if Talonflame comes in after Charizard Y faints another pokemon, Blast Burn OHKOes Talonflame 87.5% of the time.

There are other instances where my charizard was going down so I unleashed Blast Burn to hit so hard that my follow up pokemon had much easier times thereafter.

In the end I retained Focus Blast and sometimes Earthquake as that is the most competitive move but I just wanted to share this slightly hilarious but surprising power with this new move. I guess we got to take full advantage of that Drought and fire stab don't we?

I stopped taking you seriously as soon as saw "Blast Burn". You get nothing out of it other than free turns for your opponent, who proceeds to bring in that Mega Luke and counter-sweep your entire team.

 

[DarkPhoton]

I stopped taking you seriously as soon as saw "Blast Burn". You get nothing out of it other than free turns for your opponent, who proceeds to bring in that Mega Luke and counter-sweep your entire team.

Did you read what I wrote in bold xD Haha its not for serious or competitive battling like I said, and used as a last resort explosion before charizard faints mitigates the "recharge turn" when you know he's going down next turn and you have no good switches. Anyway it wasn't for serious purposes just showing some calcs on how powerful and surprising a stab sun boosted Burn Blast is with Charizard Y

 

[Count Serperior]

The only time Blast Burn (and recharge moves in general, looking at you Hyper Beam Mega Gardevoir) is when the opponent is down to his last pokemon and you wanna 1 hit guarantee kill him. It's especially helpful if the opponent's last pokemon has recovery and all your other moves 2 hit KO.
Sounds bad I know, but it's not THAT bad in 3 vs 3

 

[Fresher Than You]

I can only ever see moves like that work in 1v1 situations, such as IN 1v1, or you NEED to take out a pokemon that would ruin your whole team otherwise. Sorry, I know you weren't being serious, but this is kinda a serious thread xD

 

[DaiGuren]

Well dont be too hard on him just because he mentioned Blast Burn. There are moments w/ ZardY where you know it's going to die that turn anyway, so just go out with a bang or something like that.

Imo that main reason why ZardY shouldnt be using Blast Burn is because of 4MSS. ZardY wants as much coverage as possible, and Blast Burn is taking that away from it.

 

[Fresher Than You]

erm not if you replace the fire move it was gonna use anyway. but who wants to do that? another reason not to use it

 

[DarkPhoton]

Putting that Blast Burn info aside.. I guess it's time for some more serious but interesting analysis that I found.

Charizard Y is known for a wall-breaker that hits extremely hard right off the bat - something that many pokemon (especially certain set-up sweepers) don't have. He sets up his own drought which gives hiim a whopping 50% boost to his high BP STAB coming off of 159 Sp Atk. It doesn't end here though - this also gives him access to Solar Beam which is a bigger deal than "a good grass coverage move". It works well with Fire Blast, but whats more important is the 120 base power makes it a better "coverage move without STAB" then you'd think. Some people think 159 sp atk is extremely high but "meh, he can't boost or hold life orb". Well, here's some calcs & analysis:

Fire Blast: Want to know how hard Charizard Y hits with Fire Blast right from the get-go? If Charizard Y were a pokemon without drought but was able to hold a Life Orb with his monsterous base 159 Sp Atk, he would still do less damage than a non-Life Orb Fire Blast in sun. So his ability is essentially worth the item slot being taken up by the mega stone even when we talk pure damage (without speaking of the other uses of drought). But how much more damage does it allow Charizard to do? Well with my calculations Charizard would have to have a base 191 Sp Atk along with holding a life orb to hit as hard as he does with fire blast once he mega evolves! Base 191 with a life orb is incredible even without boosting.
As a side note, since people like to compare it to Megazard X who has a boosting move, for those that didn't know Drought is a +1 to Sp Atk for his fire stab basically. You lose out on boosting other moves and speed, but when you can get a +1 on your main attack right from the get go its awesome.

Solar Beam: Some pokemon get Energy Ball as coverage, some grass pokemon get it too and get STAB, and most often than not they use giga drain with STAB in its place. But without STAB, Charizard Y gets solar beam. You can't hold a life orb with the mega stone yes, and 159 Sp Atk is not as high as you think if factor in not holding a damage item, but the fact that solar beam has 120 base power is where the magic comes in! With my calculations Solar Beam from a mega charizard Y is equivalent to: A grass type using its standard Giga Drain with base 125 Sp Atk with STAB with a life orb. Also, if another grass type had the same 159 Sp Atk and used giga drain with STAB, it still does less damage than solar beam without stab from Megazard Y.

Finally, although it's usually going to miss (sigh), charizard y also gets Focus Blast which is also base 120 fighting move.

It's not the fact that he has high Sp Atk that makes him hit hard, which is why some people counter that he can't hold a damage item, but it's the incredibly high BP of most its moves combined with a STAB and sun-boosted Fire Blast that makes him break down walls and eat them for breakfast. Hope you guys found some of this slightly interesting, especially those of you that pondered about his power.

 

[TheGreatBulbasaurus]

Hi guys, so, after facing Charizard Y about 4 different times head-on at the start of the battle, and OHKOing every time with a Compound Eyes Galvantula Thunder (sashed, so no additional spatk boost other than max evs). I'd like to express that a sashed galvantula has been the perfect counter to a lead-in Charizard Y. Its faster and has OHKOd every time. Even if Thunder misses, the sash will let you give it another shot.

 

[Salemance]

Hi guys, so, after facing Charizard Y about 4 different times head-on at the start of the battle, and OHKOing every time with a Compound Eyes Galvantula Thunder (sashed, so no additional spatk boost other than max evs). I'd like to express that a sashed galvantula has been the perfect counter to a lead-in Charizard Y. Its faster and has OHKOd every time. Even if Thunder misses, the sash will let you give it another shot.

252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 260-308 (87.2 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

You must be lucky for four times in a row to kill that thing with it being bout a 1/5 chance. Does force him to switch though.

 

[fightnugget]

if i saw a galvantula on the other team i'd assume it was a lead and wouldn't lead with charizard y but thunder won't always ohko and charizard y can fry galvantula, plus thunder's accuracy drops because of sun.

 

[TheGreatBulbasaurus]

I guess I have been lucky then! :) but charizard y can't beat galvantula for the simple fact that if its sashed, it will get two shots (AT LEAST) in no matter what, unless thunder misses which I haven't had too much of a problem with, even when it does miss i find they see galvantula as a good thing to setup on for the reasons you stated (lowered thunder accuracy, bug) so they go for dragon dance instead of taking it out ASAP. I'll let you know when a charizard y beats my galvantula, though.

 

[fightnugget]

Charizard y uses dragon dance? Galvantula does threaten y zard but sash galvantula is such an obvious lead that I'll usually send in something else. Also for sash galvantula idk how much better your odds are to score a ohko with a 65% accuracy move than a charizards are to burn with fb or flamethrower.

 

[DaiGuren]

Eh. I've never found leading with ZardY a good idea. For one it gives away what Charizard you're using. Second, ZardY is crapped on by lead sash users in general. Third, your team might have some serious issues if you have no better lead than ZardY.

Imo the only time that ZardY can be brought out as a lead is if you're confident that the other team is not equipped to handle ZardY adequately, and though that was mostly the case when megas first came out, with MegaGar, MegaKhan and (hopefully)MegaLuke being banned, people will start preparing for the next batch of strong mega threats which includes MegaZardY(as it is ranked an S-class threat in the OU Viability thread).

 

[LuvdiscSushi]

Well, it does take a bit of prediction and luck for your opponent to not use a status move. I fear that it's speed and lack of priority would mean when he does switch in something else, it will be usually a counter who outspeeds. Also, for self preservation purposes you would be running something like Flame Charge to avoid kill yourself after recoil.

It's also worth noting that Outrage Belly drum would run serious risks vs fairies. It could have some merit vs extremely stally teams but dragon dance is overall the safer choice. Bear in mind as well that Charizard is 4x weak to stealth rocks before mega evolving, so can't Belly drum without spin support.

 

[Talpr0ne]

What if Swords Dance Charizard X?

 

[LuvdiscSushi]

What if Swords Dance Charizard X?

+2 jolly Charizard OHKOs Dragonite through multiscale with outrage, not sure if +1 does that? You'd be more vulnerable to something like Garchomp but I suppose flame charge could help. An SD set's viability would be based on damage calculations vs stuff that Charizard out-speeds, maybe it could grab some KOs the dd set can't.