XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Jps101]

I find it funny all those complaining that Mega Lucario should be banned and Genesect shouldn't. Mega Lucario is far easier to deal with than Gensect.

Personal opinion is that Mega Lucario should remain OU, Genesect goes Uber, Deoxys-S goes OU.

 

[Ajwf]

Oh right, I love the 'learn how to predict' comment. Please, tell me why I need to predict when lucario can just spam whatever the hell it wants at me and cause me great pains. Even when I do predict right (and I almost always do vs Lucario, as I've seen it 100s of times by now), I still am very close to losing just by playing it. I think it's fair to say my team has two checks (Venu can take most hits, just not twice. TornT outspeeds) and a counter to him (Slowbro), and I'm still worried to death whenever I play it. I'm not getting outplayed, I'm just getting overwhelmed. This thing is arguably just as bad as Khan because I can't prepare for both sides without devoting whole teams. And there isn't even OBSCURE counters. There simply is nothing in this meta game that can take the ridiculous punishment Special/Physical side, making team building nigh impossible for Luc-m.

Occasionally, scarf threats work because the team supporting lucario has nothing to take it. This is rare, and realistically only lower ladder/late game. Lucario is just going to go out to a ground immune/fight immune (Hell, does fire even count?) or fire immune/resist and be perfectly fine.

And all those Mach punch users?

Breloom, Infernape, Conkeldurr. Out of them, I'm sure Loom dies when Luc is +2, and fairly certain that Infernape faces the same fate from anything not named Bullet punch.

surely revenge killing is something to take into account when deciding a pokemon's rightful tier?

Yes. Which is why Darkrai is OU, I can revenge kill him with Breloom's Mach punch, hence he isn't over powered. Hell, I could even use scarf to outspeed him!

orrrr have something bulky? i think someone on here's already said that a bulky conkeldurr can easily take an extremespeed and KO back with mach punch. and what about landorus T, gliscor etc? they can live its STAB hits and KO back with earthquake. Landorus especially, as it gets intimidate on any physical set

Oh, so now we all need to run Conkeldurr, as Lando/Glisc don't work (ever hear of flash cannon?). \

People keep bringing up stats and stuff as to why things should be kept around, or banned, but I think that these pokemon are unfit fo rthe tier because they take away from the integrity of the game of pokemon. Power is valued over creativity, and I think the moral aspect is something that should be looked into

I mean, it's pretty damn obvious that these things have power, but really the only blindingly obvious one stealing creativity is Lucario-m, who has such a limited pool of what can stop him, it's barely anything. Sure, creativity is definitely an issue with him, but it's his raw power that causes it. Steel/Fight isn't inherently a fantastic stab combo (though this generation, it did prevent fairies from being an option vs him). There is very rarely anything to be done SHORT of scarfing a pokemon vs him. I had once considered breloom to take him w/mach punch, but every priority luc had at +2 would KO after rocks.

 

[danilo]

So what if you can't defog to stop deo-s turn 1? Just do it later. All of the Defogs mons should be able to get into at least one mon on an offensive team. I think the real question is whether or not Deo-s puts offense over the edge, especially since they can go to a defiant mon to take advantage of the defog turn.

 

[KztxL7]

Is the point of a Mega Evolution not to fuck up some mons? If Revenge Killing's how you take care of this thing, it makes damn good sense. And as I mentioned in my last post, the scarf users and bulky mons have no trouble with this guy.

How many Bulky Pokemon do you know of that can reliably switch in on all of Mega Lucario's sets (Special, Physical and Mixed) and then reply with a OHKO without getting 2HKO'd back? I'll wait.

Revenge Killing is NOT a reasonable argument because almost anything can be revenged killed and things that can't are most likely already in Ubers (Mega-Khan).

I find it funny all those complaining that Mega Lucario should be banned and Genesect shouldn't. Mega Lucario is far easier to deal with than Gensect.

Personal opinion is that Mega Lucario should remain OU, Genesect goes Uber, Deoxys-S goes OU.

Most of the people here would like to see both banned. Have you even read this thread. Its a suspect test for 3 pokemon and can you at least try and back up your reasoning?

On-topic still think Deoxys-S is the first to be banned. Genesect and Mega-Lucario are also still possible but not to the extent of non-tank Deoxys formes.

Explain. Your. Reasoning.

 

[Frankg26]

I do not see any reason in banning Mega Lucario... He is to frail to even take a hit. All you got to do is not to let him set up, and most of its checks can take an un-boosted Close Combat o Aura Sphere.

 

[Colonial]

Is the point of a Mega Evolution not to fuck up some mons? If Revenge Killing's how you take care of this thing, it makes damn good sense. And as I mentioned in my last post, the scarf users and bulky mons have no trouble with this guy.

The point of the Metagame is to have a competitive environment that allows variety in usage- that's why we ban things, believe it or not, because otherwise stuff like Xerneas would be all you would see. Mega Evolutions do not get an exception from that just because they're "supposed to be overpowered"- so are cover legendaries, we don't want them in our OU Metagame either, Ubers is fine for them. In the eyes of the community, Mega Evolutions are just pokemon- no special treatment allowed.
Bulky mons do not have "no trouble with this guy", after a boost (which is very easy to get on Luke) it can OHKO most defensive pokemon, and if not it will definitely 2HKO. That means that if a bulky mon switches in, it's done for as it won't outspeed Luke and will be hit twice. The scarfer argument has been beaten to death just like it has on literally every suspect test for years, IT APPLIES TO EVERY POKEMON!

 

[Ajwf]

Is DeoSharp overpowered, though? I tend to find it an incredibly successful style, one that gives me a ton of issues. But, it should easily be stopped by rapid spin, am I right? The times I lose to these styles, Lucario-m is generally also present (bisharp/luc-m dual sweeping cores just are terribad to deal with). In my mind, it is the combination of pokemon (Bisharp/Deo-S) that makes Deo-s really, really good. By itself, it might not even be S rank, but with that combination in DeoSharp and in the versatility of the revenge killing set (mainly cleaning after a sweep), it becomes a very potent pokemon.

I'm fairly certain that I'll be voting to keep Deo-S OU. In my mind, it adds creativity to the tier, does not rob the tier of it, and is not over powered in and of itself.

 

[Colonial]

Is DeoSharp overpowered, though? I tend to find it an incredibly successful style, one that gives me a ton of issues. But, it should easily be stopped by rapid spin, am I right? The times I lose to these styles, Lucario-m is generally also present (bisharp/luc-m dual sweeping cores just are terribad to deal with). In my mind, it is the combination of pokemon (Bisharp/Deo-S) that makes Deo-s really, really good. By itself, it might not even be S rank, but with that combination in DeoSharp and in the versatility of the revenge killing set (mainly cleaning after a sweep), it becomes a very potent pokemon.

I'm fairly certain that I'll be voting to keep Deo-S OU. In my mind, it adds creativity to the tier, does not rob the tier of it, and is not over powered in and of itself.

I'm pretty sure deosharp would seem overpowered to a stall player, lol. Unstoppable hazard layer, Defog blocker that with one mess up could sweep you, and other sweepers waiting in back that most certainly would sweep if Bisharp falls.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

@ revenge killing is not to be taken into account

Realy?...v.v

Yeah, even shit like Kyogre and Arceus can be revenge killed but Kangaskhan couldn't. So it was broken as fuck.


This doesn't change anything about MegaLucario's brokeness. Unless you want to unban Kyogre.

 

[Morningstar]

Explain. Your. Reasoning.

Its a sweeper that is faster than Attack forme but slight weaker. By contrast the stronger and slower Attack forme is banned.

And its bad stats are "bad" compared to other legendaries. Its stars are still on par with other OU mons

Fine Then This will be the last time I post on thsi thread. Its clear that I would have to dig deeper than i can in the metagame to even understand how broken any of the three are.

 

[Hibiki]

Just so you guys harping about M-Luke's fragility know: it lives uninvested STAB EQs and even invested STAB Mach Punches without defense drops.

Edit:

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

edit: add rocks for a further 3.13% damage and it dont change shit lol

 

[TheMohZone]

I do not see any reason in banning Mega Lucario... He is to frail to even take a hit. All you got to do is not to let him set up, and most of its checks can take an un-boosted Close Combat o Aura Sphere.

that there is the problem. he sets up (on either Spectrum you just don't know) as he just forced your switch and will them KO your "Check" with whatever it has too. Unless your faster and Can take an Espeed AND A bullet punch (You never know) AND a Vacuum wave (The list is like 2 or 3 really bad mons. i mean EXCEPTIONALLY bad. Assault Vest Azu? SERIOUSLY?) or slower and can take a CC/Aura Sphere/Flash Cannon (lol nothing can bar aforementioned bad mons.) your going to lose mons, its quite possible that it will sweep your team. the best option is to pack a check to each set and a revenge killer....which is half a team.



anyway my opinions

Lucarionite UBER. Nothing really should need to be said here if you have touched the game in a competitive aspect or even ingame (They give you one of these things, 90% of players have used it). its just too strong, on both sides of the spectrum with a great speed tier and priority out the ass.

Genesect UNDECIDED the scarf set alone is OU, but it has like 9001 sets and i'm not experienced with them.

Deoxys-S OU its good as a support mon and its goods as an offensive mon but its not broken good. its a top tier threat but its like Aegislash or Venusaur. S rank without being busted.

 

[TaBuu]

I want this thing to stay, but it's too strong :[

Once Special Mega Lucario has set-up, it's coverage of Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon and Dark Pulse can easily break dedicated walls into pieces.
Yes, people argue that Mega Lucario can be scared out through faster Pokemon but that's not the point. The point is that if Mega Lucario can keep coming in like that and taking chunks out of the opposing team those are signs of a broken Pokemon.

A truly non-broken Pokemon should have several counters that can repeatedly come in to take a hit and threaten the Pokemon out. If the suspect lacks a solid group of Pokemon that can consistently take it on, then it is too powerful and unhealthy for the metagame. Keeping them inside the tier would lead to overcentralization and limited creativity which would make Pokemon suck.

For example, take Keldeo's suspect from the BW era.
Keldeo was ridiculously strong, especially under the influence of Drizzle. At that point in time of the metagame, base 108 speed was amazing, especially if equipped with Scarf. Despite all of these ridiculous attributes, Keldeo had several solid answers that could repeatedly come in and deal with Keldeo with reasonable effectiveness. Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Venusaur and Latias could all switch in comfortably and either heal it off the damage or scare Keldeo out.
Sure Keldeo could run HP Bug for Celebi and HP Flying for Toxicroak but doing so would limit Keldeo's efficiency to handle the other counters.
And keep in mind, the aforementioned Pokemon were all OU viable ; they weren't some niche, non-OU viable Pokemon.

Now apply the same logic to Mega Lucario's suspect test.
Mega Lucario is Uber-strong with 140/145/112 offensive stats, combined with Adaptability. His power and strength is simply unrivaled in the OU metagame. Mega Lucario's most popular and most effective set would have to be his Nasty Plot variant (Aura Sphere | Flash Cannon | Dark Pulse).
Let's see if the defensive Pokemon of OU can handle Mega Lucario.
Here are the calcs:

• +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 260-306 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Mega Venusaur crumbles to Flash Cannon and only musters 60%~ max to Lucario using Earthquake.
Aegislash can take a boosted Dark Pulse in shield form and then retaliate with Sacred Sword (72%-86%) and finish the weakened Mega Lucario off with Shadow Sneak (24%-29%).
However, one should keep in mind that Aegislash is crippled severely and probably won't be taking Mega Lucario again 1v1, which makes him a very shaky and unreliable Mega Lucario counter.
Zapdos is actually one of the best answers to Mega Lucario. It takes pitiful damage from a boosted Mega Lucario and can easily 2HKO with Heat Wave. Zapdos stands as one of Nasty Plot Mega Lucario's best counters.
Gyarados is pretty shaky as well. The RestTalk variant might actually be a runner-up behind Specially Defensive Zapdos.

So here's the verdict on Mega Lucario (Nasty Plot)
It has only two counters. Specially Defensive Zapdos and RestTalk Gyarados. Looking at the number of counters Mega Lucario has, one can see that Mega Lucario is forcing a small over-centralization on the metagame. If teams must run one of these two Pokemon in order to prevent any Mega Lucario rape, then that is an issue. Even Keldeo had a healthy number of counters that could take it on.

The reason why I'm not talking about Swords Dance variant
In my eyes, it's somewhat underwhelming. We have things like Aegislash, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Slowbro, Gyarados, Rotom-Wash and Sableye to take on the physical variant. Usually Mega Swords Dance Lucario run Close Combat, Bullet Punch and Crunch to cover as many threats as it can. If Physical Mega Lucario runs Flash Cannon to 2HKO Landorus-T and Gliscor on the switch then
a.) you're losing either coverage or priority
b.) the fact that you have to predict the switch in in order to come out on top, makes Physical Flash Cannon Lucario a shaky answer to Landorus-T and Gliscor.

In my eyes, Nasty Plot Mega Lucario is what's broken and is what needs to go. A lack of solid counters (having 2 isn't enough) makes Mega Lucario very challenging to take on and forces overcentralization on players.

oh yeah. one more thing.
EVERY SINGLE UBERS POKEMON OUT THERE, CAN EASILY GET REVENGE-KILLED. THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM NON-UBER'S VIABLE.
SO PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT HOW MEGA LUCARIO IS FRAIL AND CAN GET REVENGE-KILLED. JUST STOP.

 

[114]

Lucario is broken, no questions asked. It's an insane sweeper, mixed wall breaker, and has priority to stop other sweepers. It's a nightmare for offensive and defensive teams. And balanced.

Genesect is really good.... if not this round, next round. Sad face cause I'm using him.

Deo-S has unrealized potential... not banworthy yet.

 

[RandysRage]

I do not see any reason in banning Mega Lucario... He is to frail to even take a hit. All you got to do is not to let him set up, and most of its checks can take an un-boosted Close Combat or Aura Sphere.

Much easier said than done, pal. MegaLuke can run Physical, Special, or Mixed sets with great ease thanks to its enormous movepool, each of which requires its own specific checks. If you call it wrong, kiss half of your team goodbye.

Lucarionite should be banished to Uber. As much fun as I've had using it, I kinda feel like a giant d0uchebag in doing so due to it being easily capable of slaughtering most of OU. At least its base form is still usable. Kinda.

Genesect should also be kicked out of OU. I've faced dozens of these obnoxious roaches and, just like the real thing, are RAGE-INDUCINGLY difficult to get rid of. When facing any possible check to it (such as Heatran) Genesect can just use its eject button (U-Turn) to escape any harm while doing considerable damage to anything that doesn't resist Bug. And its Download ability turns it into a (pocket) monster capable of single-handedly ripping teams to shreds. Why this was ever allowed out of Ubers in the first place is beyond me.

 

[SergantGold]

I find it funny all those complaining that Mega Lucario should be banned and Genesect shouldn't. Mega Lucario is far easier to deal with than Gensect.

Personal opinion is that Mega Lucario should remain OU, Genesect goes Uber, Deoxys-S goes OU.

YOUR personal experience =/= everyone's experience

YOUR team =/= everyone's team

Gene's attacks are also far weaker than Luke Skywalker's. It is also far easier to check. For example, Mega Charizard Y and Scarf Terrakion both check it extremely well, and both are very, very good in the current meta.

 

[Masttershake]

Yeah, and being forced to run shit like that is why it should be banned.

 

[Jukain]

I'm pretty sure deosharp would seem overpowered to a stall player, lol. Unstoppable hazard layer, Defog blocker that with one mess up could sweep you, and other sweepers waiting in back that most certainly would sweep if Bisharp falls.

I've played a good amount of stall (some versions a little more semi-stall than others, but w/e), and hyper offense honestly isn't the most difficult playstyle to handle for it. HO tends to involve a lot of hugely offensive things that often sac themselves to get off damage, that as long as you're prepared for and are using proper defensive Pokemon with recovery, aren't really that impossible. And if you use Zapdos (NP Mega Lucario counter #1), it wrecks Bisharp with Heat Wave, so it can't switch in safely at all.

I think the advantage of Deoxys-S becomes more clear as you utilize teams more toward the offensive end of the spectrum, when it just becomes insane to deal with.

So what if you can't defog to stop deo-s turn 1? Just do it later. All of the Defogs mons should be able to get into at least one mon on an offensive team. I think the real question is whether or not Deo-s puts offense over the edge, especially since they can go to a defiant mon to take advantage of the defog turn.

I feel like it does, and that's the biggest issue. Defiant user = instant +2 = murder stuff, which is a big deal.

 

[imaloony80]

Well, I can't talk about Mega Lucario after that monstrous post by Tabuu, so I'm just going to talk about Genesect, mk?

I'd love to see this thing go to ubers. The tl;dr version is that I see it on every other team and I'm sick of it being a staple. Staples being something that shouldn't exist in the pokemon metagame, something that should thrive on variety.

The legit reason is that Genesect has everything going for it. Let's go down the list, k?

Typing: As Forretress demontrated before, Steel/Bug is simply amazing defensively. It has a nasty x4 weakness to fire, and that's' it. On top of that, there isn't a single priority fire-type move in the game, so Genesect has no trouble just U-Turning in many fire-user's face with his Choice Scarf, or switching out because why not? Sure, Bug/Steel leaves a bit to be desired offensively (Though hitting 6 types super effectively from your STABS is nothing to scoff at), you realize it doesn't matter because of Genesect's...

Movepool: Dear lord this thing's movepool is dangerous. A physical movepool containing Blaze Kick, Extreme Speed, Iron Head, U-Turn, and Gunk Shot just to name a few, and on the special side having even more (Including Captain BoltBeam). Hell, you could probably run a bulky support set on him too if you wanted. He's got Magic Coat, Light Screen, and Reflect. Boosting moves? How does Shift Gear strike you? Speaking of boosting,

Download: Probably in the top 20 abilities in the game, Download not only gives a free boost that Genesect can absolutely always use (Being an excellent mixed attacker) but also gives you critical information about the other person's pokemon. Not sure if they're running a Physical of Specially Defensive Rotom-W? No problem, Genesect can check and then U-Turn in his face.

I'll be brief about his stats: Only HP is lower than 95. Fantastic offensive stats, useable defensive stats.

This guy has one weakness, and it's mind-numbingly simple to build your team with it in mind (He makes an incredible Volt-Turning core with Rotom-W). You pretty much HAVE to have something on your team to deal with Genesect or he'll just clean up late game once all of your 'mons have taken a bit of a beating. Even not counting his Scarf set, the Expert Belt and Shift Gear sets are incredibly dangerous, and that's just scratching the surface of what Genesect do in OU. He belongs in Ubers like in Gen 5. Despite the steel nerf Genesect continued to ruin days.

 

[Jack Meister]

I might be the only one here that doesn't think Mega Lucario should be banned. Or at least we shouldn't talk in absolute about his status as Uber. While he does have extreme versatility, Lucario has far more opportunity cost in using than something like M-Kangaskhan or a non-Mega. Lucario is also far frailer with common weaknesses (including one to Mach Punch) and needs more support to set up, it rarely carries the team on its back like Kangaskhan often did. Yes Lucario is impossible to counter, but by definition so was Hydreigon in Gen. 5 (Azumarril is the only true counter now and can also switch into Lucario).
With the bulky offensive nature the meta has taken, I think it's fairly easy to check Lucario and even when set up, the prevalence of Defog often strip him of some important One and Two HKOs on potential checks, interrupting a sweep.
Another point is that while Lucario has power that may very well be broken, and assuming that he cannot be countered, checking him does not centralize the metagame because his various checks are not obscure and dont become irrelevant to the Standard metagame otherwise.

Genesect on the other hand I'm more leaning towards a ban. Similar to why Tornadus-T got banned last gen. It simply provides too much momentum without any disadvantages and does not require any skill or prediction to use to great effect, hurting the competitiveness of the game, not to mention physically inclined sets can rip teams apart late game without needing a set up turn (something Lucario can rarely boast). We're now altering EVs spreads on several Pokemon specifically to spite Genesect. I think that's a sign.

Deoxys-S is fine lol

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly how I feel regarding the matter. I apologize for quoting the entire post, but I think that this argument needs to be given more attention. It's the single anti-ban post regarding Lucario that actually makes a fair point.

 

[dialganet]

My two cents on this:

a)Ok, I'm not sure on this... MegaLuke ain't broken. It's extremely powerful, but not broken. Honestly, I find him as threatening as ZardX. They are insanely powerful sweepers that can tear you apart if given the occasion, but I think this is how the metagame has shapen. Only invested tanks can sponge hits from top-tier threats and hit back, as the aforementioned are insanely powerful. You can argue that ZardX, like megaPinsir, needs more support that MegaLuke against stealth rock. In particular, ZardX hasn't even got priority, but is a double threat like Luke (Y is lurking with Sun boosted Fire Blast and a subsequent Solarbeam, Azumarrill, as Flash Cannon does), has an insane bulk for a sweeper (unlike Luke) and the least it can hit you with is a 100BP EQ with perfect accuracy unless you're running Air Baloon Tran. Yes, Luke moves have no drawbacks unlike Outrage and Flare Blitz, so maybe Luke is better... I'm not really sure, tbh, maybe with more experience and your solid argumentations I could even change my mind lol. As of now, I'll linger in the no ban side.


b) c) unfortunately, I only play on wi-fi (sorry, but I'm an aestethic lover), so I'm not that experienced with DeoS and Genesect, which are unavailable outside of Japan. I've never faced DeoS, so I won't tell a thing about him until I've faced few of them. Genesect is not ban-worthy imo. The fact is, he's a top tier threat, but the special moves nerf hurts him, as does Aegislash on the Physical sets, as does Rotom... in my experience, against Gene, it often comes down to who wears down who first. I find extremely interesting fighting him, to guess which set is using and I don't think is broken, so Genesect should stay in ou.

 

[G-Von]

I was honestly going to post a Spiderman Cancer meme about all these newcomers saying Mega-Luke shouldn't be banned because it can be revenged killed and has counters that should never be used otherwise, but decided against it because my post would jet get deleted. But seriously, its nerve racking to see such ignorant posts being made.

Hell, Mega Lucario is broken and it doesn't even use its most powerful move on the special side, Focus Blast. Everyone sides with Aura Sphere because its perfect accuracy, but it got nerfed this gen.

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 356-420 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Like, what the hell? That's straight up stupid how powerful Special M-Luke is.

 

[EpixAura]

The Mega Lucario aspect of this has already run its course, it seems. While I do feel that his vulnerability to revenge killing should be considered as more of a factor by the pro-ban side (this is being treated like a complete non-factor), it still wouldn't be reason enough to justify him staying in OU. No counters means no counters, and the few things that come close to counters are either fairly obscure, weak to Stealth Rocks, or both. This thing is as good as gone.

Genesect is a lot trickier to debate. He has even more sets this generation than he did when he was banned last gen. On the other hand, a good number of new counters/checks have shown up. Overall, though, these checks are devalued somewhat because there's no true counter to simply U-turning out, except also U-turning out with a slower Pokemon. As such, checks/counters should be considered as slightly less of a factor in Genesect's case. Instead, we should consider how much he can do when checks/counters are removed from the opposing team. In this case, he can be a late game cleaner, revenge killer, and momentum-keeper all at once. While it is easier to check/counter than things that have banned in past generations, so are most things this generation, even Mega Gengar and Mega Lucario. With more Pokemon available/viable, it's only natural, especially given how many of them are capable of revenge killing. Personally, I think Genesect will be banned by a very slight margin, and I hope this is the case.

Deoxys-S is another iffy subject. Defog is a very common argument from the anti-ban side, but Defog is vastly overrated this generation. Generally speaking, Rapid Spin is still the superior option. Running him alongside a spinblocker and Bisharp help to accentuate how much of a threat he still is. The odds of him getting banned are fairly low, but once the Defog trend dies down (as I strongly believe it will), Deoxys-S will probably see a rise in usage and will end up suspect again. Either Defog will then pick back up, or he will be banned. Whether or not he actually needs to be banned is way too close to call, but I'll trust that whatever decision is made is the right one.

 

[TheMohZone]

I was honestly going to post a Spiderman Cancer meme about all these newcomers saying Mega-Luke shouldn't be banned because it can be revenged killed and has counters that should never be used otherwise, but decided against it because my post would jet get deleted. But seriously, its nerve racking to see such ignorant posts being made.

Hell, Mega Lucario is broken and it doesn't even use its most powerful move on the special side, Focus Blast. Everyone sides with Aura Sphere because its perfect accuracy, but it got nerfed this gen.

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 356-420 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Like, what the hell? That's straight up stupid how powerful Special M-Luke is.

look on the bright side. Scrubs ain't getting those reqs, their input is pretty meaningless. but the debate is fun(ny)

but jeez, 2hko on the highest Special Defense in the game WITHOUT boosts? SE or No thats scary. if you ever wanted to run Mega Luke as a wallbreaker (Why you would idk, he breaks walls with a sweepers set.) this is an option.

 

[Colonial]

My two cents on this:

a)Ok, I'm not sure on this... MegaLuke ain't broken. It's extremely powerful, but not broken. Honestly, I find him as threatening as ZardX. They are insanely powerful sweepers that can tear you apart if given the occasion, but I think this is how the metagame has shapen. Only invested tanks can sponge hits from top-tier threats and hit back, as the aforementioned are insanely powerful. You can argue that ZardX, like megaPinsir, needs more support that MegaLuke against stealth rock. In particular, ZardX hasn't even got priority, but is a double threat like Luke (Y is lurking with Sun boosted Fire Blast and a subsequent Solarbeam, Azumarrill, as Flash Cannon does), has an insane bulk for a sweeper (unlike Luke) and the least it can hit you with is a 100BP EQ with perfect accuracy unless you're running Air Baloon Tran. Yes, Luke moves have no drawbacks unlike Outrage and Flare Blitz, so maybe Luke is better... I'm not really sure, tbh, maybe with more experience and your solid argumentations I could even change my mind lol. As of now, I'll linger in the no ban side.


b) c) unfortunately, I only play on wi-fi (sorry, but I'm an aestethic lover), so I'm not that experienced with DeoS and Genesect, which are unavailable outside of Japan. I've never faced DeoS, so I won't tell a thing about him until I've faced few of them. Genesect is not ban-worthy imo. The fact is, he's a top tier threat, but the special moves nerf hurts him, as does Aegislash on the Physical sets, as does Rotom... in my experience, against Gene, it often comes down to who wears down who first. I find extremely interesting fighting him, to guess which set is using and I don't think is broken, so Genesect should stay in ou.

All those reasons you stated in your first point indicate banworthiness. MegaZardX is already extremely strong, easily one of the best sweepers in the tier. However, Lucario hits harder, has a better movepool, it's main attacks have no significant drawbacks (lol def drop), Luke is faster, has access to +2 boosting moves which outclass DDance in luke's case because it's already really fast, it has priority, and it resists Stealth Rock and so needs considerably less support than Zard. Zard has a better STAB combo and is much bulkier, but offensively it's almost eclipsed by MegaLuke... just like most offensive megas.

I agree about Genesect though, it's versatile, strong, and almost borderline OP but I can't say it's banworthy. I think I'll wait and see the suspect test ladder and how it's different without Genesect before making my conclusion about that.