Even so, an 80 BP Psychic-type move seems poor. After all, nothing uses Psychic for coverage, and that's arguably better.
T is nice but Thundurus kinda devalues the entire rest of the letter.
S seems to get more and more broken every passing day.
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Alphabet Cup
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T is nice but Thundurus kinda devalues the entire rest of the letter.
S seems to get more and more broken every passing day.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
*cough* Psyshock *cough*
Psyshock is great because it allows Special Offensive Pokémon to bypass Special Walls, not because of its power or type coverage.
Diamond Storm looks nifty for Darmanitan. Remember that the move gets dat Sheer Force Boost. Well, everything in D that use Rock coverage(Diggersby, Durant, Dragonite maybe) can make great use of a rock move that does not miss.
No Guard Horn Drill Honedge. If only OHKO clause was off.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Same, so that way I can mock someone for running Honedge.
Download boosted Gear Grind choiced Genesect? GG
canno
formerly The Reptile
I think you're thinking of Shift Gear - Choiced Gear Grind makes perfect sense.
Guillotine Golurk imo
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Genesect @ Power Herb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
IVs: 0 Atk
Modest | Timid Nature
- Geomancy
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz/ Flash Cannon / Ice Beam
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
why does this exist (4 def EVs is for minimal living of priority)
Staraptor @ Life Orb / White Herb / Lum Berry
Ability: Reckless | Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Adamant | Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash / Shift Gear
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Return
Deoxys-S @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 76 Spe / 184 Atk
Mild | Naughty Nature
- Defog
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off
- Superpower
and just theorymonning for an uber version here:
Blaziken @ Lum Berry / Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Adamant | Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Knock Off / Protect
- Fire Punch / Blaze Kick
- High Jump Kick
Deoxys-A @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 76 Atk / 184 Spe
Hadty | Naughty | Mild Nature
- Defog
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off
- Superpower
Gentlemen! With the addition of a ladder for Alphabet Cup, I will keep my word. We will begin talking about a certain letter. The letter I am referring to provided many Pokemon with great power, but maybe, too much power. Indeed, we will be taking a look at the letter after R and before T. With a ban on the aforementioned letter, any reply to the thread will have a horrible flow, like the reply I'm making right now.
We will look at the power the letter can provide, and how one can break the threatening Pokemon of the letter. Whether it be a hard counter, or a check, do let everyone know! Formulating a good argument may have a bearing on the ban vote. A few people believe the letter had been broken from the very beginning. However, I know there are a few of you with experience dealing with the threat. If you would like to prove that the letter may not be broken, do reply!
(Okay, so I didn't use the letter S yet... But I have to clarify.
So basically... What we're doing now is analysing the letter S. This is only a guided discussion-- if you want to discuss anything irrelevant to S you found, that's cool. I encourage you to post the most powerful S mons you can find, and all relevant checks and counters (like Topsy-Turvy Thundurus, but don't let every post be about this guy!) Once enough relevant information regarding the letter is gathered, I'll drop a date to start the voting on an S blanket ban.
In my honest opinion, S became more manageable over time, but maybe others don't feel this way. So I'd like to hear lots of opinions on this!)
We will look at the power the letter can provide, and how one can break the threatening Pokemon of the letter. Whether it be a hard counter, or a check, do let everyone know! Formulating a good argument may have a bearing on the ban vote. A few people believe the letter had been broken from the very beginning. However, I know there are a few of you with experience dealing with the threat. If you would like to prove that the letter may not be broken, do reply!
(Okay, so I didn't use the letter S yet... But I have to clarify.
So basically... What we're doing now is analysing the letter S. This is only a guided discussion-- if you want to discuss anything irrelevant to S you found, that's cool. I encourage you to post the most powerful S mons you can find, and all relevant checks and counters (like Topsy-Turvy Thundurus, but don't let every post be about this guy!) Once enough relevant information regarding the letter is gathered, I'll drop a date to start the voting on an S blanket ban.
In my honest opinion, S became more manageable over time, but maybe others don't feel this way. So I'd like to hear lots of opinions on this!)
I personally think it gets it's ups like Spore Sableye and access to Searing Shot, Sacred Fire, Scald and so on, but overall I find it like any other letter, I think there shouldn't be a ban on it. I can't fully explain why but I just don't.
It's not just one thing, but the combination of everything that makes the letter S so good. Spore is fine. Shell Smash is fine. Sacred Fire is fine. Spacial Rend is fine. But all four? On the same Pokemon?
It's not just sweepers who are terrifying, but also stallers. They have access to Slack Off, Scald, Spiky Shield, Seismic Toss... All entry hazards are available. Priority is available. The best special coverage in the game (Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword) is available. Some of the best physical coverage in the game (Stone Edge + Storm Throw) is available. You can do literally everything you want as long as your name starts with S.
And yet, after thinking about it, I don't think we should ban S-mons. Yes, having one on your team pretty much guarantees a win. But everybody will have one, and the fact that you're only allowed one forces you to choose carefully. In fact, the versatility of S actually seems like an argument for keeping it. If one Pokemon needs to be on every team to win, that's overcentralization. But when one of an entire family of Pokemon needs to to be present on the team, that's different, especially when you have such a wide variety to choose from. It makes your decision very important. Do you want a sweeper? Do you want a staller? Do you want a hazard setter? The choice is yours, and the fact that there is so much choice actually adds to the metagame, in my opinion. If the only good S-moves were sweeper moves, then it would be broken, since it would force the metagame into offense. But everything cancels out. For every great S-Sweeper, there is a great S-Staller. And there are so many S-mons (over 60 without counting NFEs) that the choice is pretty big. The only thing that doesn't really get cancelled out is hazard setting, since S-Mons don't get Rapid Spin, Taunt or Defog. I can see that aspect getting banned.
Another problem with something being broken, is that you're forced into using something you don't want to. Here, you have a LOT of choice. If a single thing turns out to be broken, like Slaking perhaps, we can just ban that.
Besides, I really want to try some of the available things. Shuckle looks pretty awesome.
It's not just sweepers who are terrifying, but also stallers. They have access to Slack Off, Scald, Spiky Shield, Seismic Toss... All entry hazards are available. Priority is available. The best special coverage in the game (Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword) is available. Some of the best physical coverage in the game (Stone Edge + Storm Throw) is available. You can do literally everything you want as long as your name starts with S.
And yet, after thinking about it, I don't think we should ban S-mons. Yes, having one on your team pretty much guarantees a win. But everybody will have one, and the fact that you're only allowed one forces you to choose carefully. In fact, the versatility of S actually seems like an argument for keeping it. If one Pokemon needs to be on every team to win, that's overcentralization. But when one of an entire family of Pokemon needs to to be present on the team, that's different, especially when you have such a wide variety to choose from. It makes your decision very important. Do you want a sweeper? Do you want a staller? Do you want a hazard setter? The choice is yours, and the fact that there is so much choice actually adds to the metagame, in my opinion. If the only good S-moves were sweeper moves, then it would be broken, since it would force the metagame into offense. But everything cancels out. For every great S-Sweeper, there is a great S-Staller. And there are so many S-mons (over 60 without counting NFEs) that the choice is pretty big. The only thing that doesn't really get cancelled out is hazard setting, since S-Mons don't get Rapid Spin, Taunt or Defog. I can see that aspect getting banned.
Another problem with something being broken, is that you're forced into using something you don't want to. Here, you have a LOT of choice. If a single thing turns out to be broken, like Slaking perhaps, we can just ban that.
Besides, I really want to try some of the available things. Shuckle looks pretty awesome.
Going the Brokemons route, I see. I'd be inclined to agree, but I just remembered that it would come down to whoever gets their S-mon out first to set up and destroy. Get a Simple Swoobat Shell Smash (for example) and proceed to destroy with Stored Power or whatever. Skill-Swap away Slaking's Truant and set up with your own Shell Smash and and do the same. I'm not entirely sure if S should be banned, because I can see arguments for and against.
Basically Shuckle with any recovery outside of rest is awesome.
The thing is, not all S-Mons will "set up and destroy". Some will try to stop said mons from sweeping. Sucker Punch pretty much destroys Swoobat for instance. But still, Shell Smash might be enough to make S-Mons lead more towards the offensive, which would make them pretty broken. Heck, even the non-boosting or attacking moves (such as hazards and Spore) seem to lead more towards helping hyper-offense.
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We could always do what STABmons did and limit 1 new S move to each S Pokemon. This way, you could have Shell Smash or Spore, but not both.
Speaking of Swoobat, just wanted to share you this :
+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 628-741 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 570-672 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Swoobat does more damage to Chansey with Stored Power than with Secret Sword. That is all.
I believe the standard set will be Shell Smash / Stored Power / Secret Sword /HP Fairy (to OHKO Sableye) doesn't exist because GF is stupid so Air Slash
By the way, the only other Pokemon which aren't 100% OHKO'd by this set after a Shell Smash, including Ubers are :
-Chansey
-Arceus-Steel
-Arceus-Psychic
-Arceus-Dark
-Spiritomb
-Sableye (who now has a reason to run Sucker Punch)
-Physically Defensive Umbreon
-Honchkrow
-Mandibuzz (best non-Uber Swoobat counter by far, still gets 2HKO'd by Air Slash)
-Malamar (gets wrecked by Signal Beam variants though)
-Yvetal (basically offensive Mandibuzz)
-Physically Defensive Mega-Gyarados (lol)
-Specially Defensive Skuntank (not sure why you would run him over other S-mons)
-Specially Defensive Drapion (better in this meta, but I'm still clutching at straws here)
-Registeel
-Metagross (4x psychic resist, and Stored Power still does more damage than all the other moves. Watch out for Heat Wave though)
-Jirachi (but Heat Wave destroys it)
-Bronzong (actually, Heat Wave might be viable)
-Specially Defensive Hypno (lol)
-Specially Defensive Mega-Mewtwo-Y (yup, that's possible)
-Mew
-Wobbuffet (You can Mirror Coat Revenge Kill, or, if you predict another Shell Smash, go for Wild Charge for a 93.8% chance to OHKO! Or Encore)
-Uxie
-Cresselia
-Specially Defensive Mega Gardevoir
-Lugia (best check! Unless SR are up)
-Assault Vest Victini (I'm honestly just making it up as I go along at this point)
-Slowking
-Claydol
-Soul Dew Latias (what do you mean it's illegal?)
-Aron
-Sash Skunkern
-Oh, and anything else with Sturdy or Focus Sash.
They all get 2HKO'd, though. And 90% of them get destroyed after SR.
+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 628-741 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252+ SpA Swoobat Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 570-672 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Swoobat does more damage to Chansey with Stored Power than with Secret Sword. That is all.
I believe the standard set will be Shell Smash / Stored Power / Secret Sword /
By the way, the only other Pokemon which aren't 100% OHKO'd by this set after a Shell Smash, including Ubers are :
-Chansey
-Arceus-Steel
-Arceus-Psychic
-Arceus-Dark
-Spiritomb
-Sableye (who now has a reason to run Sucker Punch)
-Physically Defensive Umbreon
-Honchkrow
-Mandibuzz (best non-Uber Swoobat counter by far, still gets 2HKO'd by Air Slash)
-Malamar (gets wrecked by Signal Beam variants though)
-Yvetal (basically offensive Mandibuzz)
-Physically Defensive Mega-Gyarados (lol)
-Specially Defensive Skuntank (not sure why you would run him over other S-mons)
-Specially Defensive Drapion (better in this meta, but I'm still clutching at straws here)
-Registeel
-Metagross (4x psychic resist, and Stored Power still does more damage than all the other moves. Watch out for Heat Wave though)
-Jirachi (but Heat Wave destroys it)
-Bronzong (actually, Heat Wave might be viable)
-Specially Defensive Hypno (lol)
-Specially Defensive Mega-Mewtwo-Y (yup, that's possible)
-Mew
-Wobbuffet (You can Mirror Coat Revenge Kill, or, if you predict another Shell Smash, go for Wild Charge for a 93.8% chance to OHKO! Or Encore)
-Uxie
-Cresselia
-Specially Defensive Mega Gardevoir
-Lugia (best check! Unless SR are up)
-Assault Vest Victini (I'm honestly just making it up as I go along at this point)
-Slowking
-Claydol
-Soul Dew Latias (what do you mean it's illegal?)
-Aron
-Sash Skunkern
-Oh, and anything else with Sturdy or Focus Sash.
They all get 2HKO'd, though. And 90% of them get destroyed after SR.
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Guys. Assault Vest Clefable.
with
Calm nature, Unaware ability
EVs: 252 HP, 4 SpA, 252 SpD
- Clear Smog/Circle Throw
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Fire Blast
Consider the following calc:
252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Clefable: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Not even a Really small chance to 2HKO. Now, here is what Clefable can do back:
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 200-236 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or, if you're okay with being risky:
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 244-288 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (else 31.3% chance)
Also:
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 56-66 (20.3 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
The choice between Clear Smog and Circle Throw is up for debate. I have calculated that the combination of Clear Smog and Thunderbolt has a 59.375% chance to KO barring crit chance, but Circle Throw is better for if your opponent decides to switch or if you have Stealth Rock up. Moonblast is STAB, Electric move is for Swoobat, and Fire Blast is for additional coverage.
About Quagsire...well, he isn't so fortunate.
252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
Here's the best he can hit back with:
4 Atk Unaware Quagsire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 154-182 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still, I agree with bobbyvaporeon in limiting S-moves to one per Pokémon. Even then, Swoobat only loses out on Secret Sword (which is quite a loss in terms of dealing with Dark-types), and even without it, it's still pretty threatening. Oh, well. That's just my two cents. The rest is up in the air.
EDIT: I also like Yayz's idea.
Calm nature, Unaware ability
EVs: 252 HP, 4 SpA, 252 SpD
- Clear Smog/Circle Throw
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Fire Blast
Consider the following calc:
252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 200-236 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or, if you're okay with being risky:
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 244-288 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (else 31.3% chance)
Also:
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 56-66 (20.3 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
The choice between Clear Smog and Circle Throw is up for debate. I have calculated that the combination of Clear Smog and Thunderbolt has a 59.375% chance to KO barring crit chance, but Circle Throw is better for if your opponent decides to switch or if you have Stealth Rock up. Moonblast is STAB, Electric move is for Swoobat, and Fire Blast is for additional coverage.
About Quagsire...well, he isn't so fortunate.
252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
Here's the best he can hit back with:
4 Atk Unaware Quagsire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 154-182 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still, I agree with bobbyvaporeon in limiting S-moves to one per Pokémon. Even then, Swoobat only loses out on Secret Sword (which is quite a loss in terms of dealing with Dark-types), and even without it, it's still pretty threatening. Oh, well. That's just my two cents. The rest is up in the air.
EDIT: I also like Yayz's idea.
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Yeah, pretty much. It's a challenge to see how this plays out.
Wait, I just had a brilliantly idiotic idea. What if 'mons whose name start with "s" only get moves that correspond to their first two letters? This way, only Spearow, Spheal, Spinarak, Spinda, Spritomb and Spoink get Spore, and Sharpedo, Shaymin, Shaymin-S, Shedinja, Shelgon, Shellder, Shellos, and Shelmet get Shell Smash. It's a little wonky, but it does solve the problem... it also makes every S- move go from broken to just kinda meh.
What a crazy, interesting idea. Still, Salamence and Sawsbuck still get Sacred Fire (lol that 100% burn chance on buck), one of the trinity of broken S moves. It may be something we have to consider, at least as a thought. Right now Swoobat seems hella broken (who would have guessed that THIS guy would be the problem?), as you legitimately need to pack Ice Shard from something tough, Sucker Punch, or Prankster fun like Haze, Topsy-Turvy, and Power Swap (lol using Purrloin). Personally I love Haze the most because Murkrow.
Going back to the earlier suggestion about move combos, the problem doesn't seem to arise from a combination of these moves. All you have is one S mon. Popping on Spore makes it more of a supporter. Shell Smash could be a setup sweeper or passer (personally I run BatonPass Scolipede as my S mon). Sacred Fire can just be stuck on a set as a mindless wallbreaker punisher for physically offensive defense-focused mons, as is Scald for special counterparts. My Scolipede only runs Shell Smash (although Spore would be a really good idea... Brb), and that fellow more than carries his weight. Again, like the above suggestion, it's something we'll have to consider theoretically at least unless a ban is overwhelmingly overturned.
There's this thing called Aegislash which does astonishingly well with these two moves. Besides, remember that all of the above have Shell Smash, which may put them a little bit ahead of the classic blade. Shedinja can Shell Smash to oblivion because he literally gives no damn about the defense drops. Then he can run Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, and Sacred Sword and all is good.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely no reason to run Timid over Modest. Unless you somehow find yourself facing a Salamence which used Shell Smash twice. Which should never happen.Guys. Assault Vest Clefable.
with
Calm nature, Unaware ability
EVs: 252 HP, 4 SpA, 252 SpD
- Clear Smog/Circle Throw
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Fire Blast
Consider the following calc:
252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Clefable: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not even a 2HKO. Now, here is what Clefable can do back:
4 SpA Unaware Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 200-236 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, not a counter.
That actually seems like a pretty good idea! After all, S has about 20 tiems as many good moves as all the other letters, so why not divide it into about 20?
We way even be able to unban Sketch, although that would make Skarmory pretty broken. Then again, GF has given Skarmory pretty much everything is wants already. Plus, it would make Skitty viable! Oh, and Skuntank too.
You just confirmed my post since Aegislash does have STAB on shadow ball (I nevwr said you needed STAB on both as that's imposible) also compare Aegislash with Shedinja, who has a lot lower Atk, dies to all residual damage and somehow has an even lower BP to work with (Shadow Claw vs Shadow Ball) unless you decide to use Shadow Force
True that I forgot to consider Modest nature, but you forgot about the Assault Vest. Here is the real calc:
252+ SpA Swoobat Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
3.9% is nothing to bank on at all. Therefore, my point still stands.
EDIT: Still, it has more problems with hazards this way. Maybe it isn't so much of a counter after all.
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So, it has one shaky and pretty unviable (I never heard of AV Clefable before, only Lefties and LO) counter that leaves the matchup with less than 80% of its HP.
That's quite broken. But we won't have to worry for if we implement Yayz's proposal, which is starting to look better and better.