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Suspect Nomination Stage
- Thread starter blarajan
- Start date
- Status
1. Gligar
2. Knock Off
3. Swirlix
2. Knock Off
3. Swirlix
1) swirlix
2) gligar
3) prankster + confusion(swagger/confuse ray)
2) gligar
3) prankster + confusion(swagger/confuse ray)
1) Gligar
2) Swirlix
3) Sturdy+Berry Juice
2) Swirlix
3) Sturdy+Berry Juice
1. Swirlix
2. Knock Off
Swirlix is just crazy good with no strings attached. Sure it is checkable and not that super hard to deal with if you guessed the right set and have the right team lol, but its still OP and ridiculously overwhelming within just 1 turn of super easy setup.
Gligar is just reeeeally good. It isn't broken or overwhelming if you build properly imo and I feel it is healthy for the meta to have Gligar because nothing else does what Gligar does.
Knock Off is just something I want to see tested. I don't think it is terribly overbearing, but it could be and it is hard to say without seeing a meta without it.
2. Knock Off
Swirlix is just crazy good with no strings attached. Sure it is checkable and not that super hard to deal with if you guessed the right set and have the right team lol, but its still OP and ridiculously overwhelming within just 1 turn of super easy setup.
Gligar is just reeeeally good. It isn't broken or overwhelming if you build properly imo and I feel it is healthy for the meta to have Gligar because nothing else does what Gligar does.
Knock Off is just something I want to see tested. I don't think it is terribly overbearing, but it could be and it is hard to say without seeing a meta without it.
1. Gligar
Gligar just does too many things. It can sweep with Swords Dance or even without it, play mind games with Substitute, set up Stealth Rock, keep hazards off with Defog, wall things with its great defenses and Roost... the list just goes on. There aren't a lot of good Gligar counters, and most teams with Gligar can eliminate those counters to give Gligar room to wreak havoc. Gligar's gotta go.
2. Swirlix
3. Prankster + Confusion
Gligar just does too many things. It can sweep with Swords Dance or even without it, play mind games with Substitute, set up Stealth Rock, keep hazards off with Defog, wall things with its great defenses and Roost... the list just goes on. There aren't a lot of good Gligar counters, and most teams with Gligar can eliminate those counters to give Gligar room to wreak havoc. Gligar's gotta go.
2. Swirlix
3. Prankster + Confusion
1. Gligar
I've had no trouble to Gligar myself, but I used it on my team and can profess to the capability to a simple Swords Dance / Aqua Tail / Earthquake / Knock Off moveset. Gligar has amazing speed (19) which outspeeds the entire unscarfed metagame (almost) and can unleash great amounts of damage.
+2 236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Judging based off of this we can assume that nothing counters Gligar since Lileep is one of the greatest, if not greatest wall in LC. From my knowledge, Gligar's greatest checks are Scarfers and Defensive Porygon w/ Ice Beam.
Gligar with Eviolite is also I great defensive pokemon with no investment
36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sure Gligar should never set up on Slowpoke but this is a demonstration of it's sheer defensive capabiliy. This is a Super-Effective STAB hitting Gligar from it's weaker defense.
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
Before you mention Ice Punch, not all Meditite use the standard Eviolite set (Scarfed Meditite is rather good) and it has to pick between the punches for coverage. Fire- Grass / Steels Ice- Gligar and other flyings Electric- Some flying and bulky waters.
Even then Gligar can have a chance to survive an Ice Punch if it's set is bulky enough
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Ice Punch vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 20-28 (76.9 - 107.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Not ALL Gligar run SD, there are support Gligars and I saw one on every other serious team.
2. Berry Juice
Not much to say here, I'd rather get rid of Berry Juice than Swirlix because PO has Berry Juice banned and Swirlix is just fine with just Oran Berry. Berry Juice on Dwebble allows for a layer of spikes and stealth rock, or if you are faster than the opponents lead then SR and 2 Spikes. This is a rather big problem as even though defog is common, this makes the problem of Gligar and Swirlix even worse without Fast spiking Swirlix loses out on alot of KO's and it is hurt badly by having to use Oran instead of Berry Juice. Gligar loses out on having Acrobatics as a viable move and loses out on KO's (even though it still would warrant a ban).
3. Drought + Chlorophyll
Not too sure of this one but I think it deserves a mention. I encountered a Sun team with Bulbasaur and it is very threatening to say the least. If the Vulpix has Heat Rock thats Ten turns for Bulbasaur to set up and sweep. Sleep Powder / Growth / Solar Beam / HP Fire allows for a hard to stop sweep. Not much to say really so I'll post some calcs
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Dry Skin Croagunk in Sun: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Larvesta is the best check if I haven't missed anything
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Larvesta in Sun: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lives if SR is not down.
I've had no trouble to Gligar myself, but I used it on my team and can profess to the capability to a simple Swords Dance / Aqua Tail / Earthquake / Knock Off moveset. Gligar has amazing speed (19) which outspeeds the entire unscarfed metagame (almost) and can unleash great amounts of damage.
+2 236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Judging based off of this we can assume that nothing counters Gligar since Lileep is one of the greatest, if not greatest wall in LC. From my knowledge, Gligar's greatest checks are Scarfers and Defensive Porygon w/ Ice Beam.
Gligar with Eviolite is also I great defensive pokemon with no investment
36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sure Gligar should never set up on Slowpoke but this is a demonstration of it's sheer defensive capabiliy. This is a Super-Effective STAB hitting Gligar from it's weaker defense.
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
Before you mention Ice Punch, not all Meditite use the standard Eviolite set (Scarfed Meditite is rather good) and it has to pick between the punches for coverage. Fire- Grass / Steels Ice- Gligar and other flyings Electric- Some flying and bulky waters.
Even then Gligar can have a chance to survive an Ice Punch if it's set is bulky enough
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Ice Punch vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 20-28 (76.9 - 107.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Not ALL Gligar run SD, there are support Gligars and I saw one on every other serious team.
2. Berry Juice
Not much to say here, I'd rather get rid of Berry Juice than Swirlix because PO has Berry Juice banned and Swirlix is just fine with just Oran Berry. Berry Juice on Dwebble allows for a layer of spikes and stealth rock, or if you are faster than the opponents lead then SR and 2 Spikes. This is a rather big problem as even though defog is common, this makes the problem of Gligar and Swirlix even worse without Fast spiking Swirlix loses out on alot of KO's and it is hurt badly by having to use Oran instead of Berry Juice. Gligar loses out on having Acrobatics as a viable move and loses out on KO's (even though it still would warrant a ban).
3. Drought + Chlorophyll
Not too sure of this one but I think it deserves a mention. I encountered a Sun team with Bulbasaur and it is very threatening to say the least. If the Vulpix has Heat Rock thats Ten turns for Bulbasaur to set up and sweep. Sleep Powder / Growth / Solar Beam / HP Fire allows for a hard to stop sweep. Not much to say really so I'll post some calcs
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Dry Skin Croagunk in Sun: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Larvesta is the best check if I haven't missed anything
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Larvesta in Sun: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lives if SR is not down.
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1) Strudy + Berry Juice
1) Berry Juice
2) Swirlix
3) Caterpie
Berry juice is just downright absurd. It not only gives Swirlix a second chance, but it gives it a speed boost and makes Sturdy pokes absurdly broken, requiring 3 hits to KO.
I might argue that Swirlix is only as broken as it it because of Berry Juice. If it didn't get a full recovery after a Belly Drum or a strong attack, who knows whether it could truly put that Speed to good use? On the other hand, every team has to have a counter (not a check--a solid counter) to Swirlix, and that's a sure sign of broken-ness.
I did not say Gligar, however. Gligar is not nearly as difficult to counter as it has been made out to be. If you have trouble with Glig, slap HP ice on any wall or fast poke, like a Scarfer. I run it on my defensive Gligar for just that purpose. Sash Abra and Sturdy pokes (like Tirtouga) can beat it. It's not broken IMO. Not yet.
2) Swirlix
3) Caterpie
Berry juice is just downright absurd. It not only gives Swirlix a second chance, but it gives it a speed boost and makes Sturdy pokes absurdly broken, requiring 3 hits to KO.
I might argue that Swirlix is only as broken as it it because of Berry Juice. If it didn't get a full recovery after a Belly Drum or a strong attack, who knows whether it could truly put that Speed to good use? On the other hand, every team has to have a counter (not a check--a solid counter) to Swirlix, and that's a sure sign of broken-ness.
I did not say Gligar, however. Gligar is not nearly as difficult to counter as it has been made out to be. If you have trouble with Glig, slap HP ice on any wall or fast poke, like a Scarfer. I run it on my defensive Gligar for just that purpose. Sash Abra and Sturdy pokes (like Tirtouga) can beat it. It's not broken IMO. Not yet.
1) Swirlix
No real need to say anything here. If you're not packing priority (such as meditite bullet punch), prankster status such as paralysis, or sturdy if hazards are down, it's going to sweep you really easily.
2) Sturdy+Berry Juice
Similar to above, this is just absurd. Tirtouga, especially, as it's able to set up an almost guaranteed shell smash and sweep unprepared teams. It's also incredibly centralizing, as sturdy+juice magnemite and tirtouga run rampant.
3) Prankster+Confusion
You know who you are if you use this. You're a terrible person. The ability to do something like this in this tier makes it unappealing to new players. As such, I feel that it will prevent the meta from growing.
No real need to say anything here. If you're not packing priority (such as meditite bullet punch), prankster status such as paralysis, or sturdy if hazards are down, it's going to sweep you really easily.
2) Sturdy+Berry Juice
Similar to above, this is just absurd. Tirtouga, especially, as it's able to set up an almost guaranteed shell smash and sweep unprepared teams. It's also incredibly centralizing, as sturdy+juice magnemite and tirtouga run rampant.
3) Prankster+Confusion
1) Berry Juice
2) Swirlix
3) Gligar
2) Swirlix
3) Gligar
1. Berry Juice
2. Swirlix
3. Gligar
2. Swirlix
3. Gligar
1) Berry Juice
Some people argue that the juice is not as broken if you just take away the combo with Sturdy, but Pokemon with Unburden and Acrobatics (aka the biggest offenders, generally, of gligar and swirlix) can still take advantage of this item. It basically gives a huge boost to sub and setup sets and gives already super-powered Pokémon amazing recovery. I have the same reasons as most other people to ban the heck out of this fermented stuff. Pokemon that run bj and already have great bulk are just a nightmare to take out in general, although fake out and knock off help mitigate things. Those moves can still be fairly easily predicted.
2) Swirlix
I love this Pokémon, but it's just really hard to take down and its versatility and speed make it a sweeping demon. People are usually required to run a steel or poison move just to reasonably handle this beast, along with maybe a fire type or another swirlix. Unburden is great in a meta game full of knock off and consumable items, and Swirlix is awesome even without berry juice recovery. Swirlix does, in most cases, stand a fair head and shoulders above most other LC mons. Get it out of here.
3) prankster+confusion
Prankster itself isn't that broken, but monsters like murkrow can easily use Para-fusion to wreck momentum. This wouldn't be so bad on its own, but if swirlix and gligar are banned (and it looks to be heading in that direction for nominations at least) then other mons just won't be able to dispatch the worst offenders as easily. The main thin this combination has going for it is the healthy presence of Chinchou and to a lesser extent Magnemite and things that use Wild Charge (maybe I run calcs later)
Gligar is really versatile (setup SR, aqua tail, etc) and fast and has increased the amount of ice moves being played on its own, mostly, but there are some hard counters like Chinchou, Porygon, and Meditite.
So I have nothing super new to say but... I like to justify my answers :/
Some people argue that the juice is not as broken if you just take away the combo with Sturdy, but Pokemon with Unburden and Acrobatics (aka the biggest offenders, generally, of gligar and swirlix) can still take advantage of this item. It basically gives a huge boost to sub and setup sets and gives already super-powered Pokémon amazing recovery. I have the same reasons as most other people to ban the heck out of this fermented stuff. Pokemon that run bj and already have great bulk are just a nightmare to take out in general, although fake out and knock off help mitigate things. Those moves can still be fairly easily predicted.
2) Swirlix
I love this Pokémon, but it's just really hard to take down and its versatility and speed make it a sweeping demon. People are usually required to run a steel or poison move just to reasonably handle this beast, along with maybe a fire type or another swirlix. Unburden is great in a meta game full of knock off and consumable items, and Swirlix is awesome even without berry juice recovery. Swirlix does, in most cases, stand a fair head and shoulders above most other LC mons. Get it out of here.
3) prankster+confusion
Prankster itself isn't that broken, but monsters like murkrow can easily use Para-fusion to wreck momentum. This wouldn't be so bad on its own, but if swirlix and gligar are banned (and it looks to be heading in that direction for nominations at least) then other mons just won't be able to dispatch the worst offenders as easily. The main thin this combination has going for it is the healthy presence of Chinchou and to a lesser extent Magnemite and things that use Wild Charge (maybe I run calcs later)
Gligar is really versatile (setup SR, aqua tail, etc) and fast and has increased the amount of ice moves being played on its own, mostly, but there are some hard counters like Chinchou, Porygon, and Meditite.
So I have nothing super new to say but... I like to justify my answers :/
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