Espeon [QC 2/3] [ON HOLD]

[Jukain]

jc104's set is easily the best thing, except dazzling gleam

you need hp fighting to ko av tyranitar, even at +6. you nail every other dark-type in the game with hp fighting, too, but hitting av tyranitar is especially important out of the dark-types. for this reason i don't think hp fighting should be optional, and dazzling gleam isn't even worth mentioning.

 

[jc104]

I don't think AV tyranitar is necessarily that much of a problem if you've stacked enough defense. Mostly I was thinking dazzling gleam might be good for hitting mandibuzz for at least something earlier in the game, because it basically just beats espeon and has access to Whirlwind and Taunt.

On second thought, though, you're probably right. OHKOing Bisharp is quite important too.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Hi

Did you know that HP Fire on the Dual Screens set does not OHKO Scizor and isn't even close to guaranteed with Stealth Rock?

4 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 260-308 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Espeon's match-up is worse if Scizor invests in Special Defense.

For this reason I'm having a hard time justifying having HP Fire slashed first. It helps you against just one Pursuit user and does a shitty job of that at best. The only real saving grace to HP Fire is beating Forretress and Ferrothorn, the former of which is decidedly uncommon in this metagame (though beating Ferrothorn can be a big deal for some teams.) Baton Pass, on the other hand, helps you against all Pursuit users that are slower than Espeon, and if you have Reflect up, can even help you against Pursuit users that are faster than you. Having just one attacking move doesn't hurt DS Espeon's goal since its goal isn't to do lots of damage to opposing Pokemon, but rather to create a damage cushion for Pokemon who can sweep. Now, I'm not QC, but for the very reasons I've outlined I really think Baton Pass should be slashed before HP Fire on the Dual Screens set; from my experience HP Fire just wasn't that useful and I always wished I had Baton Pass instead.

 

[CyclicCompound]

I haven't played too much baton pass this gen, but I'm quite sure that the baton pass set is not right. The main use is on dedicated baton pass teams. As far as "suicide lead" baton passers go, there are much stronger options - you could be passing Shell Smash instead of a measly Calm Mind. You might have some success using Espeon as a baton passing pivot, but frankly I would consider this another option on the offensive set rather than a dedicated baton passer.

As Jukain said, Espeon's job is to reflect dangerous moves, and to sweep right at the end with a LOT of boosts (mostly in defenses, but also in Speed and special attack from calm minds). With this many boosts, resistance to stored power is more or less irrelevant - the only problem is dark types. Up until that point, Espeon is extremely valuable and should not be risked for anything. The opponent might try to wear espeon down, for instance by attacking with potential phazers and taunters, and you need to be as ready for this as you can be. Trying to set up boosts is just giving up precious health on your espeon and risking a crit.

The moveset should probably be:

-Baton Pass
-Stored Power
-Hidden Power Fighting / Dazzling Gleam (you need one of these at least in order to actually hit dark types)
-Morning Sun / Substitute

Keeping a sub up is really important for a baton pass team, as you need to block crits. Calm Mind is best left to something else.

edit: also, some recommended partners would be: Scolipede, Vaporeon, Scizor/Mawile, Mr Mime. You don't need a recipient. Espeon IS the recipient.

jc104's set is easily the best thing, except dazzling gleam

you need hp fighting to ko av tyranitar, even at +6. you nail every other dark-type in the game with hp fighting, too, but hitting av tyranitar is especially important out of the dark-types. for this reason i don't think hp fighting should be optional, and dazzling gleam isn't even worth mentioning.

My only problem with Espeon without Calm Mind is that it's pretty vulnerable around stuff like specially defensive Heatran early game before Espeon has acquired very many boosts. After a few Calm Minds it's not a problem anymore, and other phazers like Skarm or Hippowdon can usually be KOd after a few CM boosts with Stored Power, but a smart player won't usually let the BP team get to that point without attempting to phaze them (if they can). Basically, CM gives you much more of a guarantee that you won't be harassed by one of the common phazers, and it works for quite a few of the common Taunters as well.

It should be noted, though, I don't always use Espeon as my finisher, forsaking HP Fighting for CM and always going with Sub over Morning Sun. There are many cases when I can still sweep with Stored Power, but my current team uses Mega Mawile with Play Rough and Crunch as a "supplementary" attacker, as well as a Gliscor with EQ. I've found it's a lot easier to run a BP team when instead of focusing on one finisher, each member can boost, pass, and more than one can attack. This is especially true on a Pokemon as important to the team as Espeon, as it takes a lot of pressure off of it.

So I'm not saying that using Espeon as a finisher is bad; in fact, it's one of the best options to choose from. However, Espeon is also completely viable in more of a supporting role that only sweeps when it can, otherwise boosting and passing like the rest of the members. I've found that to be more useful on some of my teams than a finishing set.

 

[shadowyoshi64]

I haven't played too much baton pass this gen, but I'm quite sure that the baton pass set is not right. The main use is on dedicated baton pass teams. As far as "suicide lead" baton passers go, there are much stronger options - you could be passing Shell Smash instead of a measly Calm Mind. You might have some success using Espeon as a baton passing pivot, but frankly I would consider this another option on the offensive set rather than a dedicated baton passer.

As Jukain said, Espeon's job is to reflect dangerous moves, and to sweep right at the end with a LOT of boosts (mostly in defenses, but also in Speed and special attack from calm minds). With this many boosts, resistance to stored power is more or less irrelevant - the only problem is dark types. Up until that point, Espeon is extremely valuable and should not be risked for anything. The opponent might try to wear espeon down, for instance by attacking with potential phazers and taunters, and you need to be as ready for this as you can be. Trying to set up boosts is just giving up precious health on your espeon and risking a crit.

The moveset should probably be:

-Baton Pass
-Stored Power
-Hidden Power Fighting / Dazzling Gleam (you need one of these at least in order to actually hit dark types)
-Morning Sun / Substitute

Keeping a sub up is really important for a baton pass team, as you need to block crits. Calm Mind is best left to something else.

edit: also, some recommended partners would be: Scolipede, Vaporeon, Scizor/Mawile, Mr Mime. You don't need a recipient. Espeon IS the recipient.

I guess you can run a set like that, but you'll be forced to run Psychic, as you don't have a boosting move of your own, or else you may be forced to have a 20 bp move when you can no longer receive boosts. Actually if you have Espeon receive boosts, you can basically have Stored Power on every set (despite what I said). Also run Dazzling Gleam to hit Dark Types, unless you really want to hit Bisharp hard, which OHKOs you with Sucker Punch, and Hidden Power isn't a 100% OHKO, Tyranitar has a chance to OHKO you with Crunch, while you only have a chance to 3HKO it univested in Special Defense, also you get stopped by Sableye completely, who will break your sub with Foul Play no matter how you invest Espeon. Also with subs without recovery, you'll be wearing yourself down.

I'd run maybe

-Baton Pass
-Substitute
-Psychic
-Morning Sun / Dazzling Gleam / Wish

You can also run Hidden Power Fire to hit certain Steel types, or Fighting if you really want.

I run Espeon all the time, so I know how to use it. (actually if Espeon wasn't taken, I would've taken it strait off the bat)

Also, on the offensive set, you have 248 unused EVs, so you might want to put there somewhere, like Speed.

 

[jc104]

Espeon is not the first pokemon you send in - you are pretty much always going to be passing boosts to espeon. If you have no boosts to protect, then you shouldn't be bringing espeon in in the first place. Besides, a good portion of pokemon on full bp teams don't have an attacking move at all!

Usually you will be passing enough defense boosts such that tyranitar can't OHKO you with crunch. Hell, sometimes I'll boost up to +6 def and intimidate the tyranitar so it can't even break espeon's substitutes. But assault vest tyranitar in particular is so bulky that the power of HP Fighting is extremely welcome in taking it out. Just think, if you are at +6 defense, you can still lose to tyranitar when running dazzling gleam.

Sableye is a straight up auto-loss for baton pass. There is so little that you can do about it, it's not even worth thinking about.

 

[CyclicCompound]

I'm not QC, but here's some thoughts on the offensive set.

I seriously question the use of Choice Specs on offensive Espeon. Psychic STAB is awful to be locked into, and most of Espeon's other options are rather weak and/or wall-able without a STAB boost. I'd definitely say Life Orb (or even Expert Belt, for that matter) is the better choice, since Espeon gets pretty great coverage. Offensive Espeon is seriously a pain in the ass for stall teams to deal with, but locking Espeon into a single move really diminishes that potential.

Next, I would definitely give it a Timid nature and not even think about slashing Modest. Espeon sits at a really valuable base 110 Speed Tier, and using a Modest nature prevents it from checking important things like non-scarf Terrakion, Keldeo, and Infernape, as well as speed-tying Gengar and Lati@s.

And finally (this kind of ties back into the second point), I would also remove mention of moving EVs into HP. Espeon is already frail as it is; and considering it's using Life Orb, there's no sense in taking extremely precious Speed EVs to buff an HP stat that's expected to be low anyway.

 

[dice]

remove offensive

sub > morning sun on bp; protecting from crits is crucial

add 32 spe ev's on bp to outspeed scarf lati@s at +2 and random jolt/aero at +1

qc 1/3

 

[Jukain]

fix the team options on bp; you should be mentioning mr. mime, iron defense (mega) scizor, acid armor + wish vaporeon, iron defense mawile, amnesia mew, charge zapdos, scolipede, gliscor, and sylveon

qc 2/3

 

[alexwolf]

Btw, i have had a lot of success with Yawn + Baton Pass on dual screens Espeon. Makes sure you are not set up bait + guaranteed momentum is great, especially against Defog users, so you can force them out and get a screen, and then Baton Pass to the appropriate sweeper if they come in again. I would like to see it somewhere on the main set.

 

[alexwolf]

Make sure to mention that unlike most dual screens users, Espeon doesn't care at all about Defog, as Magic Bounce bounces back the screen removal effect so you get to keep your screens intact. Also, choose one of Psyshock and Psychic to put in the dual screens set, not both. Psyshock is doing shit to special walls without any investment, so Psyshock cause Blissey is not a valid reasoning for including it in the set. Also, make Baton Pass + Yawn the first options on the first two slots, as it's the best combo for Espeon, as i already said.

 

[steviestar]

Defog completely resets the battlefield to neutral no matter who it hits. Even if Espeon bounces back the Defog, the screens will still be removed, but the opponent will receive the evasion decrease instead.

 

[alexwolf]

Defog completely resets the battlefield to neutral no matter who it hits. Even if Espeon bounces back the Defog, the screens will still be removed, but the opponent will receive the evasion decrease instead.

That's not what happens in PS. Also, it has recently been confirmed that Defog only clear screens from the opponent's side of the field, which means that Defog's screen removing effect is most probably single target, making it affected by Magic Bounce. Stil needs to be confirmed in-game though.

 

[anttyaalt]

remove offensive

sub > morning sun on bp; protecting from crits is crucial

add 32 spe ev's on bp to outspeed scarf lati@s at +2 and random jolt/aero at +1

qc 1/3

I'll remove the offensive and put it on other options, and I added the sub + Evs. Thanks for the help ^^

 

[anttyaalt]

That's not what happens in PS. Also, it has recently been confirmed that Defog only clear screens from the opponent's side of the field, which means that Defog's screen removing effect is most probably single target, making it affected by Magic Bounce. Stil needs to be confirmed in-game though.

I tested it, it only removes it on your opponent's side like you said.

 

[alexwolf]

Also, make Baton Pass + Yawn the first options on the first two slots, as it's the best combo for Espeon, as i already said.

Still waiting...

 

[anttyaalt]

Still waiting...

Sorry for the late response ^^' but I was thinking about what I would take out

name: Baton Pass
move 1: Stored Power / Psychic
move 2: Baton Pass
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Morning Sun / Dazzling Gleam
ability: Magic Bounce

Espeon needs pretty much all of the moves above, and in this set Espeon is the receiver. I think it would be better on the Calm Mind + Baton Pass set. (I'm putting it in under set details & other options since I think Vaporeon a better Yawn user with its bulk.)

name: CM + Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Morning Sun
move 4: Yawn / Stored Power
ability: Magic Bounce

 

[anttyaalt]

I haven't played too much baton pass this gen, but I'm quite sure that the baton pass set is not right. The main use is on dedicated baton pass teams. As far as "suicide lead" baton passers go, there are much stronger options - you could be passing Shell Smash instead of a measly Calm Mind. You might have some success using Espeon as a baton passing pivot, but frankly I would consider this another option on the offensive set rather than a dedicated baton passer.

As Jukain said, Espeon's job is to reflect dangerous moves, and to sweep right at the end with a LOT of boosts (mostly in defenses, but also in Speed and special attack from calm minds). With this many boosts, resistance to stored power is more or less irrelevant - the only problem is dark types. Up until that point, Espeon is extremely valuable and should not be risked for anything. The opponent might try to wear espeon down, for instance by attacking with potential phazers and taunters, and you need to be as ready for this as you can be. Trying to set up boosts is just giving up precious health on your espeon and risking a crit.

The moveset should probably be:

-Baton Pass
-Stored Power
-Hidden Power Fighting / Dazzling Gleam (you need one of these at least in order to actually hit dark types)
-Morning Sun / Substitute

Keeping a sub up is really important for a baton pass team, as you need to block crits. Calm Mind is best left to something else.

edit: also, some recommended partners would be: Scolipede, Vaporeon, Scizor/Mawile, Mr Mime. You don't need a recipient. Espeon IS the recipient.

I agree with you but I made Sub a definite choice as Dice said that preventing crits is pretty important. I put Dazzling Gleam with Morning Sun because they aren't necessary but it would be nice to have.

name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Stored Power
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Dazzling Gleam / Morning Sun
ability: Magic Bounce
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 SpD

+2 0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 292-344 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even at +2 Espeon can get a 2HKO most times with Dazzling Gleam, but it also hits pretty much every other Dark type harder than Hidden Power Fighting. (Either way it's still a 2HKO, but then again, nobody's going to stay in against a Tyranitar.)

Ps. I also noticed that Heatran's going to wall sets w/o Hp Fighting, so I'll put Hp Fighting as an option.

 

[Magnemite]

I'm not QC, but here's my 2 cents:

• Mention competition from Dual Screens Deoxys-S in the overview, which is much faster and has access to Stealth Rock
• Remove mentions of Xatu from the overview, it doesn't even have an OU analysis
• Remove mentions of Ninjask from the Baton Pass set, there's no reason to ever use it over Scolipede
• Mention Chansey in the special walls section of Checks & Counters, as it's much, much better than Blissey
• Remove Scarf and especially Band from OO, offensive Espeon is bad enough as it is, also, mention that offensive Espeon is outclassed by offensive Deoxys-S
• In team options of the Baton Pass set, mention that Mr. Mime has Calm Mind, Scolipede has Iron Defense, remove Iron Defense from Vaporeon, remove Charge Beam from Zapdos, and change Mega Mawile to non-Mega Mawile

These are just a few things I noticed when looking through this, I may have missed a few things.

 

[anttyaalt]

I'm not QC, but here's my 2 cents:

• Mention competition from Dual Screens Deoxys-S in the overview, which is much faster and has access to Stealth Rock
• Remove mentions of Xatu from the overview, it doesn't even have an OU analysis
• Remove mentions of Ninjask from the Baton Pass set, there's no reason to ever use it over Scolipede
• Mention Chansey in the special walls section of Checks & Counters, as it's much, much better than Blissey
• Remove Scarf and especially Band from OO, offensive Espeon is bad enough as it is, also, mention that offensive Espeon is outclassed by offensive Deoxys-S
• In team options of the Baton Pass set, mention that Mr. Mime has Calm Mind, Scolipede has Iron Defense, remove Iron Defense from Vaporeon, remove Charge Beam from Zapdos, and change Mega Mawile to non-Mega Mawile

These are just a few things I noticed when looking through this, I may have missed a few things.

I added most of the things above, but after some thought I decided to keep the offensive sets since it does have its purpose, and I took away Mawile completely since it's outclassed by a lot of other Pokes. And a question, why should Iron Defense be removed from Vaporeon? It's just another option.

Thanks for the help ^^

 

[Magnemite]

Vaporeon doesn't learn Iron Defense. Scarf Espeon seems too bad even for OO imo, but Choice Band Espeon sounds like the worst thing I've ever heard of. I have no idea why you'd keep it. Also, Mawile is good enough to be mentioned since it has a great typing and Intimidate.

Also, 400th post!!!!

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

After some deliberation amongst QC leaders, this analysis has enough flaws that we're putting it on hold until a decision can be reached regarding how to handle it. This thread will be locked until a decision is made as to how to proceed (which should take maybe a couple of days tops). Just hold tight until then.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

After talking, this analysis will be reassigned. The glaring points to note:

• Set spacing: The extra spaces between lines will foul up the SCMS, so that's a big no-no. This should be obvious, since literally no other analysis does it this way, so red flag there.
• No content: Everything is so short that it's impossible for there to actually be enough substance there to matter.
• Grammar issues: They are flagrant, and they are everywhere. Improper use of its vs it's, run-on sentences, missing commas, etc.
• Spelling issues: Klefiki, Dual Sceens, Scrollipede, Softboil, Dragon Taill. The worst part here is that all the misspellings are in actual Pokemon names/terms, which is a serious problem on a Pokemon-centric site.
• Team Options for Baton Pass: Really, you just did a list of things that have boosting moves and Baton Pass and left it at that? How in the world does that actually suffice?
• Checks & Counters: Lots of abbreviations, which are unprofessional and out of place. Again, this should be obvious just by looking at other analyses.

Someone is already slated to take this over. I suggest that before you attempt another analysis, you familiarize yourself with the finer points of analysis writing by lurking in the forums and looking over some of the already finished analyses.