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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
And here are the results:
Levitate Metagross: 12
Psychic / Fairy Uxie: 5
Harvest Florges: 11
Roost Empoleon: 16
So, our new theorymon is:
+ Roost
The OP will be updated with Roost Empoleon and the new guiding questions in a while, in the meanwhile you can start discussing about it!
Levitate Metagross: 12
Psychic / Fairy Uxie: 5
Harvest Florges: 11
Roost Empoleon: 16
So, our new theorymon is:
The OP will be updated with Roost Empoleon and the new guiding questions in a while, in the meanwhile you can start discussing about it!
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def /252 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Roost
-Scald
-Defog/Stealth Rock/Roar/Knock Off/Ice Beam
-Defog/Stealth Rock/Roar/Knock Off/Ice Beam
This is probably Empoleon's best set, though this really is a bunch of sets compiled into one. It just has so much it wants to do. Roost is mandatory because it's the point of discussing this, and Scald is mandatory because it needs a STAB move, and Scald offers the most utility. The last two slots, however, can be edited to whatever you need Empoleon to do. Empoleon is one of the few Defoggers that resists Stealth Rock. This coupled with reliable recovery makes it one of the most reliable Defoggers available. Empoleon also has the Defog + Stealth Rock combo, meaning Empoleon can lay its own Stealth Rock after Defogging away the opponent's. Empoleon also has access to Knock Off, which offers immense utility by removing the opponent's item. Roar can be used if you want to check set up sweepers, particularly special attackers. It can Roost off any damage it has taken after phazing the sweeper out. Ice Beam can be used as a secondary attacking move to hit Dragons. I don't think Empoleon actually is afflicted too severely by its 4MSS, as its teammates can do whatever it doesn't. There are plenty of other Defoggers, hazard setters, or phazers, and Empoleon really loves the recovery. It looks like a prime example of a Pokemon that can be changed to suit a team's needs.
If the addition of Roost is compatible with Defog and Stealth Rock, it could serve some use as a decent utility. Unfortunately I just feel like Roost isn't going to save Empoleon from obscurity, especially with all of the Lucario, Venusaur, and Earthquake users saturating the XY metagame. Its stats and typing just aren't what they used to be. I'd rather just run Excadrill for hazards, as its offensive pressure is a lot more relevant, and its pretty reliable at getting a Rapid Spin off.
With the addition of Roost, Empoleon is crippled by its 4MSS even more so. It just can't do all it wants to do. It would probably take on a role of repeatedly clearing hazards, setting up its own, trying to get a burn with scald and just roosting to carry on the process, so it would love Roar aswell
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Do you even know what 4MSS is?
Empoleon can do just fine doing a role that its OTHER TEAMMATES cannot. Here is the thing 4 move slot syndrome is NOT a bad thing.
Empoleon can set hazards AND remove them, that is something impressive on its own.
Scald is fantastic for it's chance to cause burns and amp up his survivability even more (Considering Empoleon is quite bulky as a special defensive wall.) Why Gamefreak have not granted the Penguin Roost is beyond me considering SCIZOR gets it.
Empoleon doesn't have to do everything, here is my own individual set:
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def /252 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Roost
-Scald
-Icy Wind
-Yawn/Stealth Rock
And so now here I am with possibilities. Icy Wind isn't great power-wise but being able to slow the opponent (Possibly switching in) is really nice.
Yawn can cause sleep and phase attackers who are not willing to take it. Even though Stealth Rock can be laid out.
I have my own choice there, he doesn't have to do everything, think of him less as Sylveon and more as Blissey.
Considering that everything that gets Roost can either fly or is a Flying-Type (in Scizor's case, Scyther can fly and use Roost, while in the anime Scizor could in fact fly), they probably didn't give Empoleon Roost since penguins can't fly (the description of Roost says that the user "lands", so it would have to be able to fly prior to roosting, right?)
Looks like with a lack of boosting moves (Iron Defense and Swords Dance lol) Utility is going to be its best option. Empoleon's got that good nice of Stealth Rock and Defog. I think Scald is the best option for the fourth slot just for the sake of spreading more status without getting completely shut down by Taunt. Otherwise Roar would be the best option in most cases.
For the lols:
Empoleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Adamant Nature
252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Def
-Swords Dance
-Roost
-Waterfall / Aqua Jet
-Earthquake / Shadow Claw
What could go wrong?
For the lols:
Empoleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Adamant Nature
252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Def
-Swords Dance
-Roost
-Waterfall / Aqua Jet
-Earthquake / Shadow Claw
What could go wrong?
I have one answer to that response:
Dodrio
Dodrio gets roost.
Penguins do in fact have feathers (I believe Roost's japanese name is Feather Rest).
I'm really interested to see what others think of this theorymon, ie. how it would affect the metagame and such. To me, it seems like a small change that offers a host of new opportunities for what is currently a solid C-Rank Pokemon (in terms of viability,) and while it wouldn't necessarily shake the metagame up and it has counters, it would really pull its weight on a team.
While I'm thinking about it...
Edit:
The immediate thing I think in terms of Empoleon's role is a Defog/hazard support role, very similarly to Skarmory. In fact, the set that Salt the Flesh posted is very, very similar to what many Skarmory run. The main differences are in typing, bulk (Skarmory's physical bulk is better than Empoleon's special bulk, but Skarmory's weakness to special moves is more prominent than Empoleon's weakness to physical moves,) and the single attacking move (Scald has a clear advantage in being able to spread burns.) However...
While I think it would excel as a bulky hazard maintenance mon with special bulk and unique typing, it could easily run a bunch of other sets. I see a bunch of people claiming that 4MSS hurts Empoleon too much to be a threat, but I really don't understand how you could look at a bulky mon getting instant recovery and think that isn't helpful. Like Salt the Flesh said, you can really play around with Empoleon's last two moves a lot and get a viable threat no matter what. It can phaze, hit fairly hard with a tank set or even stall with Toxic (while being immune to the status.) It could still go an offensive route as well, as the SubPetaya set from Gen 4 would likely do much better with less predictability and fewer Scarfers (it helps that while Empoleon is weak to Fighting-type priority, it resists Steel, Normal, Water, Ice and Flying-type priority, letting it get the leg up on some prominent priority users with an Agility in tow.)
While I'm thinking about it...
Yeah, Empoleon has weaknesses. Like pretty much every other Pokemon. Fortunately, Empoleon doesn't need to take every attack on its own. A wonderful defensive partner for Empoleon is Gliscor, who is immune to two of Empoleon's weaknesses while resisting the third. Meanwhile, Empoleon resists both of Gliscor's weaknesses (4x resisting his 4x weakness,) and has the special bulk to take hits aimed at him (and vice versa.) The synergy there seems pretty fantastic, though I'm sure there are plenty of other mons that can cover Empoleon's weaknesses.
Empoleon likely has the best chances on Bulky Offense and Semi-Stall teams, though really it can benefit any team in need of hazard removal so long as the defensive synergy is there. I don't think that Empoleon would really hurt a playstyle too much; as said earlier, there are definitely answers to him. Stall may have a rough time being able to outdamage his Roosts or Toxic him, though. Despite sharing some type similarities with Politoed, Empoleon may also see more use as a hazard maintenance mon on rain teams, as it makes those Scalds hurt a bit more.
As I mentioned earlier, Gliscor makes a wonderful defensive partner to Empoleon. He also threatens to do major damage with Earthquake (though if Empoleon isn't weakened it will likely survive and OHKO back with Scald,) so it also stands out as a solid answer for slightly weakened Empoleon. As such, Gliscor would likely see more usage. Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn, both lacking an Ice weakness, also stand as decent answers to hazard-setting Empoleon. A lot of the Pokemon that would rise and fall in usage depend on what sets become most prominent, but I think there exist enough high-ranking Pokemon that answer Empoleon where it would certainly be viable and useful, but not game-shifting.
Edit:
It gets Agility too. Seriously, the SubPetaya Agility set was Empoleon's signature back in its Gen 4 OU days.
Tbh if it had this last gen it might have been great. But with excadrill back, and the rise of physical attackers (most who run earthquake) empoleon finds it harder to survive.
Even as a special wall, its kind of... Lackluster.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 244-289 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sure, roost would mitigate that, but till when? It missed? Then what? Scald? That's not good enough.
I don't feel like posting a calc for every possible special threat, but that opens the door for discussion. What Pokemon does empoleon wall and neuter with roost that's relevant?
Even as a special wall, its kind of... Lackluster.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 244-289 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sure, roost would mitigate that, but till when? It missed? Then what? Scald? That's not good enough.
I don't feel like posting a calc for every possible special threat, but that opens the door for discussion. What Pokemon does empoleon wall and neuter with roost that's relevant?
what about a set like Terminate421's but with Knock off instead? Scald's burns patchs up your defense, Icy wind to catch a switch in, same principle with knock off because losing an item is quite detrimental in most circumstances as might allow it to get past things with leftovers(other item) gone and a possible burn.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def /252 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Roost
-Scald
-Icy Wind
-Yawn/Stealth Rock/Knock off
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def /252 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Roost
-Scald
-Icy Wind
-Yawn/Stealth Rock/Knock off
I don't think giving Empoleon roost is really meant to make it a new counter to a whole bunch of Pokemon. It's just that Empoleon's longevity increases by a longshot. It can switch into Rotom's Volt-Switches which do ~30% to it uninvested and roost off the damage (put simply of course). It doesn't worry as much about residual damage like burns and leech seed. Sure it still has a major ground weakness, but now it serves as a very viable utility mon. It can switch into SR multiple times and defog throughout the game, instead of having to be preserved to get that perfect switch in. It's the same deal with spikes. It has a lot more freedom. Giving it roost is nothing ground breaking. It still walls what it walls before and not much has been added to it's repertoire of pokemon it can counter. It still would face fierce competition against Mandibuzz and Mega-Scizor as a reliable defogger, but by giving it Roost it carves a bigger and better niche as a defogger. Following that, I really think Roost is the most meaningful on a defogging set. Of course Roost helps with all its sets, but Roost+Defog arguably has the best impact on OU, out of all its other sets.
Empoleon could pull off an offensive defog+roost+2 attacks set similar to the latis but with a different typing. Notably it doesnt care about tyranitar and scizor at all and can switch into the omnipresent dragon moves (and wall the latis themselves). Another notable advantage is hydro pump which is almost as powerful as draco meteor but doesnt reduce sp attack. Support sets are also much better now but i feel an offensive set would be more useful.
I'm wondering if a Physicall defensive set is viable (or not) as it could check azumarill mawile and talonflamme :
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog
- icy wind / stealth rock / knock off / yawn
That should be work pretty well
Edit : this is some damage calc
So it can easly take their stab moves and threaten back with the 30% burn, in the case of talonflame it is not far from the OHKO with scald.
But it still need a partner(gliscor/Landorus T) in case where they get a fighting move.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog
- icy wind / stealth rock / knock off / yawn
That should be work pretty well
Edit : this is some damage calc
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 108-128 (29.1 - 34.5%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 242-286 (65.2 - 77%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 105-123 (28.3 - 33.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 374-440 (100.8 - 118.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 184-217 (49.5 - 58.4%)
+2 252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 223-264 (60.1 - 71.1%)
in answer of what
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%)
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 258-306 (86.5 - 102.6%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 242-286 (65.2 - 77%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 105-123 (28.3 - 33.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 374-440 (100.8 - 118.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 184-217 (49.5 - 58.4%)
+2 252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 223-264 (60.1 - 71.1%)
in answer of what
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%)
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 258-306 (86.5 - 102.6%)
So it can easly take their stab moves and threaten back with the 30% burn, in the case of talonflame it is not far from the OHKO with scald.
But it still need a partner(gliscor/Landorus T) in case where they get a fighting move.
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Yeah, I'm not feeling great about those calcs. I don't know how Roost makes any difference here either, sure you can Roost off a resisted hit but you risk getting hit with a super effective hit if you stay in to do that. I'm not clear how Roost distinguishes this set from non-Roost Emp or makes it more viable.
In Japanese, the name of the attack is "Hane Yasume" Where Yasume means rest, but Hane means "feather" OR "wing". Based on Crobat, Scizor, Butterfree, Flygon, etc. etc. etc. getting it, I think it's better translated as "Wing Rest". Anything that gets wings is fair game (and all birds have wings... even Dodrio... somewhere in there...).
Anyway, point is Empoleon has wings too, so I don't think there's any problem here flavor-wise.
The bigger issue for Empoleon is that it's far from the only Water-type to get reliable recovery. Slowbro/Slowking/Milotic/Gastrodon/Vaporon/etc. can all boast the same. What it comes down to is what type of support Empoleon offers versus the others, and the value Steel brings.
SR / Defog are pretty good support options, and Scald is decent at keeping up its threat level but...
To be perfectly honest though, I see Steel as a weakness, rather than a strength. The weaknesses it brings to Ground- and Fighting- are a major issue, especially when Empoleon is not the bulkiest on the physical side. Meanwhile, those weaknesses to Electric- and Grass- are what have always prevented most Water-types from being used as Specially Defensive walls in the past (in general, Water-type is better for physically defensive walls). To be fair, Empoleon does not carry this Grass-weakness but it's of little consolation considering...
Talonflame, Greninja, and Latios/Latias are the only major offensive threats in the meta (physical OR special) I can think of that DON'T carry super effective moves against Empoleon. The penguin has a lot of resistances and few weaknesses, but those weaknesses are carried by almost every competent attacker in the game. Without resistances to Dark or Ghost, it's even more pressed to find enemies it can actually check-- especially when its raw defensive stats are actually below-average in today's OU.
I don't know... I just don't see Roost Empoleon as being a big contributor to OU.
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Agreed with all of this. Lack of recovery has never really been his issue because stuff just kills him too fast for it to even matter. He's rarely going to stall out an opponent by repeatedly Roost off its damage, and if it's getting a free turn by forcing a switch it would much rather be using that turn to Defog or put up SR. When does it have time to Roost before one of the bajillion attackers out there that can hit it SE kills it?
Bolded are those Pokemon who don't frequently carry super effective coverage against Empoleon. Of these though, Heatran and Volcarona's Fire Blasts are not to be underestimated, and Heatran can carry Earth Power. Furthermore, Latios carries Thunderbolt and Earthquake at greater frequency than in BW (though EQ will be laughable to Empoleon without DD).
Bolded and Italicized are those Pokemon that Empoleon can "beat" with relative reliability. Many of the Pokemon bolded are support/defensive Pokemon (which is why they carry fewer attacks), and many of them (those not blue and italicized) are going to go about their business whether they can break Empoleon or not-- generally, Empoleon can't do a whole lot to them either. Empoleon's not going to be a great check to a Volcarona sweep, nor can it stop Espeon from calm minding or stop Sylveon from doing its cleric work. While "Roar" can expand this list a bit, it's not a permanent solution, and it's still not a good fix to many of these defensive threats.
Based on the above (and the fact that many OU relevant Pokemon NOT on this list also have their way with Empoleon), Roost or no, Empoleon's just not a very good fit for the OU metagame, and likely won't be contributing much.
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I entirely agree with Chou. I just don't feel like Roost will do anything for Empoleon when it's walled or taken advantage of by half (if not over half) of most teams in the OU metagame.
I'd never use this over Latias or Mandibuzz who offer a lot more utility as a Defog user.
As Seiterman mentioned, one of the partners with which it has great synergy is Gliscor, who really doesn't utilize any of the support that Empoleon offers, as it doesn't require Defog support nor burns from Scald. (Obviously, the rest of the team might, but as I said, I feel that there are better options who are more relevant both offensively and defensively.)
This is why I voted for Harvest Florges, honestly.
I'd never use this over Latias or Mandibuzz who offer a lot more utility as a Defog user.
As Seiterman mentioned, one of the partners with which it has great synergy is Gliscor, who really doesn't utilize any of the support that Empoleon offers, as it doesn't require Defog support nor burns from Scald. (Obviously, the rest of the team might, but as I said, I feel that there are better options who are more relevant both offensively and defensively.)
This is why I voted for Harvest Florges, honestly.
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What you're looking at is what he cannot do that the other bulky waters can. The steel typing is what gives him the edge in defenses. Surprisingly, Empoleon can hold his own against Mega-Mawile (So long as that burn proc happens)
Empoleon is one of those pokemon that are not pivots but are meant to sap the opponent in some way upon the opponent switching in a counter and (most likely) get the hell out ASAP.
Also, bar Rotom-W and Tentacruel, most bulky water available in the meta tends to bring little utility to the team outside scald, defog, knock off, and SR are all very abusable moves, which should give it an edge over other bulky water, one should use Empoleon as a support over a wall I think.
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