Garchomp [QC: 0/3]

[Exclaimer]

Well, it's still a guaranteed outspeed on base 100's, which are extremely common regardless. Plus, nothing much likes to switch on Garchomp's STAB's, with the obvious exceptions including Skarmory and Togekiss.

 

[Olijolly]

I understand garchomp's 102 is great to run over the base-speed-100 pokemons.
I am simply saying it's not a "ridiculous trollish speed tier(102)" as lordkira said.
It's close to what it was back in gen 5 or worse IMHO, in terms of speed tier.
It's nowhere near as trollishly fast as it was back in gen 4.

 

[Exclaimer]

I understand garchomp's 102 is great to run over the base-speed-100 pokemons.
I am simply saying it's not a "ridiculous trollish speed tier(102)" as lordkira said.
It's close to what it was back in gen 5 or worse IMHO, in terms of speed tier.
It's nowhere near as trollishly fast as it was back in gen 4.

It's still "trollishly fast" because it just surpasses a great speed tier without compromising its other stats. It's still a base 600 stat Pokemon, but without a huge speed stat as it just barely surpasses the 100 stat.

 

[Jukain]

i have brought up rocky helmet multiple times on irc, and literally everyone says it is the best item for chomp. rough skin + rocky helmet is just soooo good. sash kinda blows, you never really want to sack chomp and besides, most non-se (ice, dragon, fairy) attacks don't ohko. drop sash and slash rocky helmet first.

 

[indian]

why is there no scarf set? It is one of the best scarfers currently and kills many dangerous threats like +1 charizard-x, charizard-y and can also check aegislash with some prediction...
Something like this :

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
dragon claw or fire blast can be used in place of fire fang as it was mainly used for genesect.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Alright, we came to an agreement on #xyqc that the set order should be Swords Dance, Offensive Stealth Rock, Choice Scarf, Mega, and Tank. Additionally, the Mega EV spread should be changed to 176 Atk / 252 SAtk / 80 Spe Naughty, which allows him to outpace Adamant Bisharp.

Scarf and Tank Chomp should look like this:

SET NAME
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge / Aqua Tail / Fire Blast
move 4: Dual Chop / Dragon Claw
ability: Rough Skin
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly / Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

SET NAME
########
name: Tank
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Dragon Tail
move 3: Stealth Rock
move 4: Fire Blast / Toxic
ability: Rough Skin
item: Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Set Details: RestTalk in slots 3 and 4 to increase his longevity and give him a way of absorbing status.

 

[Unowninator]

•Outrage is the secondary STAB attack, allows it to hit many Pokemon that are immune to Earthquake such as Rotom-W, Aegislash, Landorus, Thundurus, and Gyarados.

Aegislash isn't immune to Earthquake, and even if it has an Air Balloon, do you really want to lock yourself into Outrage against this thing?

 

[Subject 18]

Time out. Why only run 80 Speed EVs for Bisharp? There is no reason why you should be slower than Adamant Excadrill, standard Gliscor, Jolly Tyranitar, Dragonite, 88 Spd Lando-T, Lucario and Gyarados. Sure you get more EVs to use in Atk, but at the cost of being outpaced by all these Pokemon isn't worth it or good for that matter. Unless there is a good reason to be slower then all these Pokemon, I'm going to say that running max speed investment with a neutral nature is the better option.

 

[BurningMan]

Time out. Why only run 80 Speed EVs for Bisharp? There is no reason why you should be slower than Excadrill, 16 Spd Gliscor, Jolly Tyranitar, Dragonite, Max speed Lando-T, Lucario and Gyarados. Sure you get more EVs to use in Atk, but at the cost of being outpaced by all these Pokemon isn't worth it or good for that matter. Unless there is a good reason to be slower then all these Pokemon, I'm going to say that running max speed investment with a neutral nature is the better option.

I agree that it is important to outspeed these Pokemon, but imo the current EV spread sucks DMeteor is piss weak you do like 70% against 252/0 Gliscor max and even worse against Lando-T and Rotom-W and these are actually your primary targets for DM. Honestly i recently tried mixed Mega-Chomp and it was horrible, thanks to Sand Support EQ and Stone Edge hit really hard and having a stronger Fire Blast is cool, but it rarely actually matters and i don't feel that you get many notable 2HKOs that you wouldn't get if you just used normal Chomp with LO. Sure the recoil sucks especially because it sacrifices Garchomps great bulk, but those 10 speed Points make a big difference since it allows you to threaten so much more Pokemon making it a lot easier to effectively wall break.

Maybe i have been using the set all wrong but imo the current moveset+ EVs just don't work i honestly think that it needs a lot more SpA EVs, given its massive base attack i think that you don't really need to invest that much especially if you would use a boosting nature to be effective and that LO should be a slash on the mixed set.

 

[Srn]

When you mention what yache saves SD chomp from, you should really mention that it helps lure in Thundurus.
With yache, you only take about 50%~ from Hp ice and you usually kill with stone edge in return.
Thundurus just needs a mention because it's a big threat that you lure in and KO with yache.

On the topic of mega chomp, the mixed variants were honestly disappointing. Perhaps I ran a weaker ev spread, but its Draco's just weren't powerful enough to dent the threats I wanted gone. Most of the time, SD in the sand served me better.

 

[Subject 18]

Maybe i have been using the set all wrong but imo the current moveset+ EVs just don't work i honestly think that it needs a lot more SpA EVs, given its massive base attack i think that you don't really need to invest that much especially if you would use a boosting nature to be effective and that LO should be a slash on the mixed set.

This is what I was going for. 252 SpA / 252 Spe with a Mild or Rash Nature is much better.

 

[Yuri]

I'm late to the party but yes definitely put a Scarf set up. If I understand the writing standards correctly, it plays differently enough from the other sets (revenge killer/late-game cleaner as opposed to wallbreaker) that it deserves to be mentioned separately.

I agree that Rock Slide should at least get a mention as it is enough to OHKO what matters, that is, Zard-Y and Mega Pinsir, and if memory serves 2HKOs Togekiss (maybe) and Thundurus. Flamethrower can't OHKO Scizor and Ferrothorn but 0 Sdef variants are still hit upwards to 80%, which is often enough to be picked off later by Stealth Rock or whatever. You really miss that power against Skarmory though. It is a matter of preference but I REALLY hate having my would be devastating correct prediction negated by a miss.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Hey Plus. I would add that if you're using Garchompite on the Swords Dance set, it should be noted that Fire Blast is almost a better option than Fire Fang. Even at +2, Fire Fang doesn't come close enough to KOing physically defensive Skarmory, while with just a little SpA EVs, a Naive nature, and Stealth Rock, it OHKOes. Additionally, it also has more initial power against Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress, all of whom Fire Fang can't KO at +0 surprisingly enough while Fire Blast OHKOes most of the time with or without hazards. The only common instance I can see Fire Fang working over Fire Blast is against Sassy Ferrothorn, which +2 Earthquake already OHKOes anyway, and Fire Blast can also KO with a couple of hazards. It should also be noted that Life Orb Naive normal Garchomp can't hope to match this.

Also mention that with Garchompite, Garchomp isn't required to Mega evolve immediately; it can choose to sweep in its unevolved form, taking advantage of its higher Speed. If extra power is required against several defensive sets such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, physically defensive Gastrodon, and other friends, Mega Evolve to obtain more power and bulk (it takes some HP Ices surprisingly well too).

 

[alexwolf]

I agree that it is important to outspeed these Pokemon, but imo the current EV spread sucks DMeteor is piss weak you do like 70% against 252/0 Gliscor max and even worse against Lando-T and Rotom-W and these are actually your primary targets for DM. Honestly i recently tried mixed Mega-Chomp and it was horrible, thanks to Sand Support EQ and Stone Edge hit really hard and having a stronger Fire Blast is cool, but it rarely actually matters and i don't feel that you get many notable 2HKOs that you wouldn't get if you just used normal Chomp with LO. Sure the recoil sucks especially because it sacrifices Garchomps great bulk, but those 10 speed Points make a big difference since it allows you to threaten so much more Pokemon making it a lot easier to effectively wall break.

Maybe i have been using the set all wrong but imo the current moveset+ EVs just don't work i honestly think that it needs a lot more SpA EVs, given its massive base attack i think that you don't really need to invest that much especially if you would use a boosting nature to be effective and that LO should be a slash on the mixed set.

Yeah, you must have been using it wrong. Doing ~70% damage to Lando-T, Rotom-W, and Gliscor with DM is excellent, as you can then 2HKO them with Stone Edge. Or, you could just hit them on the switch with Fire Blast (aside from Rotom-W), which does around 40% to both, and then finish them off with Draco Meteor. And even if they force you out once, big deal, you stripped 2/3 of their physical wall's life and are ready to go to town next time Mega Chomp comes in, or another physical sweeper.

Also, not really sure about the Speed thing, but i always liked the extra power. Outspeeding max Speed Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados could work, outspeeding 88 Speed Lando-T is speed creep and won't happen, and to outspeed Lucario and Excadrill you sacrifice too much power imo. For example, with the 176 Atk / 252 Spe / 80 Spe EV spread, you do a minimum of 104.4% damage to physically defensive Hippowdon with DM + EQ, meaning you always 2HKO it. I feel that securing 2HKOes against very important walls is more important thatn outspeeding some offensive threats, most of which wouldn't stay in against Garchomp or can't OHKO even if they move first anyway.

 

[BurningMan]

Yeah, you must have been using it wrong. Doing ~70% damage to Lando-T, Rotom-W, and Gliscor with DM is excellent, as you can then 2HKO them with Stone Edge. Or, you could just hit them on the switch with Fire Blast (aside from Rotom-W), which does around 40% to both, and then finish them off with Draco Meteor. And even if they force you out once, big deal, you stripped 2/3 of their physical wall's life and are ready to go to town next time Mega Chomp comes in, or another physical sweeper.

Doing 70% and then switching out would be ok, except with the current EV spread you are doing 70% against Gliscor at max and around 50% against Rotom-W/Lando (you still get the 2HKO on Rotom-W with SE).
With Subject 18s proposed EV spread you just wall break so much better because Draco Meteor actually does what it should. Just some calcs:

252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 144-169 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- 38.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Its basically the same against SDef Hippo you do a lot less with DM but the 10%~ more with EQ are enough to 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 280-330 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor in Sand: 96-114 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal

252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 264-312 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T in Sand: 85-100 (22.2 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
You still need SR and a good damage roll but now at least you have a chance to get past.

252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers
0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rotom-W in Sand: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
You could also do this with the current spread but with SR you don't need to gamble with SE now (you just 2HKO with DM)

252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 334-394 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 354-418 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (fuck you Air Balloon)

0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 295-348 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

The few points you get by investing into attack rarely ever matter because 90% of the time they are overkill, you miss the 80% chance to 1HKO Azumarill with SR and Sand and the OHKO on Goodra with EQ.

 

[alexwolf]

Doing 70% and then switching out would be ok, except with the current EV spread you are doing 70% against Gliscor at max and around 50% against Rotom-W/Lando (you still get the 2HKO on Rotom-W with SE).

- 252 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 240-283 (62.8 - 74%)
- 252 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 190-225 (62.5 - 74%)

I don't know where you got the 50% damage against Lando-T and Rotom-W, but they are both 2HKOed with DM after SR, or with Fire Blast + DM and DM + Stone Edge respectively.

Also, vs Slowbro the extra damage from EQ is really helpfull, as otherwise it can sponge the DM and switch out thanks to Regenerator. I am not against using a +SpA nature, but it's not exactly a must so far, and pumping up your strongest and most reliable attack (EQ) seems as the most beneficial option. However, if relevant calcs in favor of using a positive nature in SpA are provided, i am ok with it. Also, it's great to have enough juice on EQ even when sand is not up.

 

[dadoux]

Is there a spread to check Aegislash better ? Like tanking 2 shadow balls and OHKOing back, it could be quite good on the SR support.

 

[Fuzznip]

This is being dropped.