XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[WebBowser]

WebBowser , keep in mind that "suspects will be reintroduced into the tier from least-likely-to-be-broken to most likely". Stuff like Weavile and Diggersby will probably be among the first to be suspect tested so I don't think you should worry about the meta adapting too much without them. Tbh I think these bans are justified given that as far as I understand the new tiering system this is the only way to have a Pokemon suspected, at least for a while. Weavile and Diggersby are definitely problematic Pokemons that threaten entire playstyles; while they don't appear outright broken they are suspect-worthy and banning them for a couple of weeks seems a reasonable decision when the alternative is that we can't do anything about them at all for the months it takes to suspect all the other obviously broken stuff.

Note that I never argued that "quickbans" as a whole are bad. Kyub, Lando-I, and Manaphy were obviously broken and made walling darn near impossible, much more so then Weavile, Diggersby, Scolopede, or anyone else in BL could possibly claim. I am not against the council banning things which are obviously broken without a suspect test, hence why I was among the many who rejoiced at the megakanga ban in OU. However, many of the folks in BL, especially the more recent bans, are far from "obviously broken" and almost certainly, given the arguments that I have seen so far, what I would call "arguably broken", as in these guys are powerful enough to be suspected, but not so overwhelmingly powerful to be permanently* banned from UU without a suspect test. Nobody disagrees with the above, not myself, and not the UU council if I am interpreting their decisions correctly.

*permanently here meaning "Until a significant shift in the metagame occurs", usually caused by a new generation.

The point of contention is this (correct me if I'm wrong): Should we, or should we not during this beta phase, temporarily remove things that are "arguably broken" with the intent of suspecting them later? My argument for "no" is that I am afraid that the premature removal of "arguably broken" pokemon will influence the metagame in such a way that if they were reintroduced at a later date, the metagame will be inadequately prepared to deal with them during the suspect test and that will cause the votes to be unfairly biased towards keeping them banned.

So far, this is the only argument I have heard on this question, and therefore I am biased towards "no". Therefore, I would like to hear other arguments about this.

Also, I lack a twitter/mabit/whatever-the-heck-that-hashtag-is-for account, so sadly I cannot follow them on that hashtag or link you all provided me with.

*edit*

or maybe I can, lol. Ty for the correction Kava. :)

 

[NWL]

It is for irc, and I do not think you need an account. On another note, why is weavile banned? Like other users have said, he seems nicely balanced.

 

[chriso0100]

I swear, kokoloko is going ban crazy. Been playing UU beta since the start, and most of the bans i agree with. Im probably the reason gothitelle got suspected lol. Showdown username-datbigragequitta. But really, weavile going but chansey not? Really? And to even suspect entry hazards at all. Calling it now, Every uu team on the winning side: Chansey, florges, mega aggron, zapdos, celebi, slowbro. Done.

 

[Kavatika]

WebBowser all you have to do is follow the link, pick a name, and you can chat with other people in the channel, all of them who play XY UU or are interested in it. It doesn't require an account for anything, and it's pretty simple to use. If you need help with it, you can just ask some of the people there, or you can refer to smogon's irc subforum (I'm p sure they have a guide to irc).

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

On the plus side though I think wallbreakers that were hype last gen like SubSplit Chandelure (Actually a huge threat, maybe even moreso than last gen now that barely anybody uses Snorlax these days) and such might see a bit more usage now. I wouldn't say stall entirely runs the tier just because the premier wallbreakers on the forefront of the new gen were removed for the time being. I will say it makes the tier a bit more defensive now than it was before, but I think we just gotta adapt to it a bit more creatively...This at least gives Pokemon who were good last gen and hardly seen this gen a chance to come back and maybe see the spotlight? You might find something good in it, too. I'll toss some stuff up for you guys to try out: SubSplit/Specs Chandelure, Band Heracross, Raikou, LO/CB Darmanitan, Krookodile, CB Crobat, DD Kingdra, SubSeed Shaymin, SubSD Cobalion, Band Medicham, SD/CM Virizion, Porygon-Z. Just a few. Not saying all of these mons are suddenly super good now (Some might suck for all I know) but I think with the absence of some other Pokemon, they're at least worth getting a solid opinion on before moving on at least. :]

 

[Kadabrium]

Trick+Venomoth+Nidoking is hilarious right now in this meta.
Earth power+Sludge wave+boltbeam lols at anything not named chansey(easily tricked on a predicted switch in) or umbreon(set up fodder)


Just use slowbro or sth else to deal with darmanitan and youre done

 

[effyouzion]

I swear, kokoloko is going ban crazy. Been playing UU beta since the start, and most of the bans i agree with. Im probably the reason gothitelle got suspected lol. Showdown username-datbigragequitta. But really, weavile going but chansey not? Really? And to even suspect entry hazards at all. Calling it now, Every uu team on the winning side: Chansey, florges, mega aggron, zapdos, celebi, slowbro. Done.

Offensive Krookodile destroys that team, and Suicune too if you can kill Celebi (hint: pursuit trap him).

That said, I wouldn't mind Chansey heading to BL. Chansey's so fucking bulky she can wall a lot of physical sweepers unless you get a knock off in.

 

[666lumberjack]

Alright so I posted this a few pages back but since people want to whine about stall I guess I'll post it again.
Heracross (M) @ Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 Spd / 120 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Facade

Bluff a Scarf set or bring it in on something like Chansey that will definitely Protect or Switch, Swords Dance, and OHKO literally every Pokemon in the tier besides Quagsire. Paralyze the one Pokemon stall runs that is faster than it (a base 100 with more than 12 speed, Tonadus-T or whatever) and find the setup opportunity (usually easy, but you may have to be ballsy) and it will decimate any defensive team you care to mention. It used to be that bulky ghosts were the bane of SD Heracross but since the Knock Off buff, it easily OHKOes all of them - and the best part is, you don't lose anything, since Knock Off still kills everything you would want to use Megahorn on. Quagsire is annoying but takes up to 75% from Clobe Combat - it will die eventually but try to have a couple of layers of Spikes up so you have to hit it twice. The burn usually kills you before you 6-0 a team but versus stall, if you can kill 3-4 members, which this thing will do consistently, a competent team should clean up no problem. It's not deadweight against offense as well, basically every team has something slower or that get locked into a move that doesn't hit it very hard, and Guts Close Combat annihilates offensive Pokemon pretty easily. It doesn't even have a move that can miss, so you know every time you click an attack you're about to decimate something.

 

[Sartory]

I feel like mons are getting banned because of their ability to abuse the power of Knock Off, but with more and more of the big threats that can use it getting banned, Knock Off is getting saved from the chopping block, when some of these mons(Weavile etc.) could healthily exist in a uu without Knock Off at their disposal.

 

[mertyville]

I am supprised that Hydreigon didn't get banned to BL. There still is no counter to it and it can gain momentum thanks to u-turn. It is kinda like Thundurus-T, just not as fast and strong statwise but it hits from both attacking stats almost anything for massive damage.

After thinking a bit more, I can see Weavile being not only dangerous because of Knock off but for Icycle Crash as well. Just going for that flinch because why not. They might not be in the same set but still from base 120 Atk and 125 spe...thats nothing to laugh at. Killing of like half of your opponents team thanks to flinch hax and your sash is still not activated (ok, that was an extreme example but you get the point).

I wonder if chansey will we suited to BL. It is still a great wall but you know...knock off everywhere. I heard often the argument, that anything that has knock off, Chansey wouldn't want to stay in anyways, but if almost any pokemon can use that move, what is the point of a wall if you can't stay in on something you might have to wall?

On Kyurem...I am really hyped to test out a hail team with Kyurem's Blizzard spamming...I just can't decide what else I should use before I can tell how successful it is this meta. As far as I have read and heard, it is rather underwhelming.

 

[Albacore]

roflmaoo people grouping together to ban the stuff that kills stall and now even charizard is out of UU, I guess zard is a bigger threat to UU than regular gengar is to OU lmfao this is amazing the tiers have gone to complete shit and all these stall goofs are running rampant smh r.i.p FUN metagames hopefully gen 6 RU and NU will save us.

lol

UU is probably the most offensive tier ATM. A tier which has Darmanitan, Victini, Chandelure, Hercross, Mega-Houndoom, Haxorus, Kedleo (this thing's still here?), Latias, Hydreigon and more great sweepers and wallbreakers I couldn't think of isn't turning into a stall tier any time soon.

I don't think you realize just how stupidly brutal UU was before these bans took place. I mean, we used to have Kyu-B and Terrakion!

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Alright so I posted this a few pages back but since people want to whine about stall I guess I'll post it again.
Heracross (M) @ Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 Spd / 120 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Facade

Bluff a Scarf set or bring it in on something like Chansey that will definitely Protect or Switch, Swords Dance, and OHKO literally every Pokemon in the tier besides Quagsire. Paralyze the one Pokemon stall runs that is faster than it (a base 100 with more than 12 speed, Tonadus-T or whatever) and find the setup opportunity (usually easy, but you may have to be ballsy) and it will decimate any defensive team you care to mention. It used to be that bulky ghosts were the bane of SD Heracross but since the Knock Off buff, it easily OHKOes all of them - and the best part is, you don't lose anything, since Knock Off still kills everything you would want to use Megahorn on. Quagsire is annoying but takes up to 75% from Clobe Combat - it will die eventually but try to have a couple of layers of Spikes up so you have to hit it twice. The burn usually kills you before you 6-0 a team but versus stall, if you can kill 3-4 members, which this thing will do consistently, a competent team should clean up no problem. It's not deadweight against offense as well, basically every team has something slower or that get locked into a move that doesn't hit it very hard, and Guts Close Combat annihilates offensive Pokemon pretty easily. It doesn't even have a move that can miss, so you know every time you click an attack you're about to decimate something.

Definitely gonna take this set for a spin, but just a quick question, what does the 136 Speed help you outrun? Or is it just specifically for paralyzed Tornadus-T?

 

[Patrick1088]

mertyville unfortunately, weavile has to choose between icicile crash and knock off. Knock off is a gen v tutor while icicle crash is a gen 6 egg move. So untik we get move tutors again , youre out of luck...

Anyhoo! CB hera with sleep talk is a great poke right now. Its probably one of the few things to reliably handle that cm reuniclus set. You coukd actually run both with mega houndoom and you have a good, balanced wall breaking team!

 

[Mazz]

I swear, kokoloko is going ban crazy. Been playing UU beta since the start, and most of the bans i agree with. Im probably the reason gothitelle got suspected lol. Showdown username-datbigragequitta. But really, weavile going but chansey not? Really? And to even suspect entry hazards at all. Calling it now, Every uu team on the winning side: Chansey, florges, mega aggron, zapdos, celebi, slowbro. Done.

You seem to fail to realize the greater scheme of things, which kokoloko made apparent to us when XYUU Beta became a thing - there's going to be a significant number of bans in the preliminary metagame, and once it's settled down, things will be retested and reintegrated back into the tier. At this stage, we're currently taking out the better of the suspects to see how things adapt and thrive in the metagame. Just to reiterate, that once XYUU Beta settles down (whether or not it becomes XYUU at that stage in time), suspects like Weavile will get their opportunity at a retest and may find themselves back in the UU metagame.

It's not like kokoloko's trying to track down anything worth using in the tier and simply curbstomping it because he doesn't like how that Pokemon functions in the game. He is working in our best interests and does have a plan to try to limit the damage done by the preliminary bans. Be happy that this specific leader and his council are actively trying to make this game better with every suspect that gets a "temporary" boot.

 

[mertyville]

mertyville unfortunately, weavile has to choose between icicile crash and knock off. Knock off is a gen v tutor while icicle crash is a gen 6 egg move. So untik we get move tutors again , youre out of luck...

I already mentioned that...guess I wasn't clear enough

 

[kokoloko]

I swear, kokoloko is going ban crazy. Been playing UU beta since the start, and most of the bans i agree with. Im probably the reason gothitelle got suspected lol. Showdown username-datbigragequitta. But really, weavile going but chansey not? Really? And to even suspect entry hazards at all. Calling it now, Every uu team on the winning side: Chansey, florges, mega aggron, zapdos, celebi, slowbro. Done.

no it wasn't you. and no stall isn't the end-all-be-all of teams by a long shot. that team gets fucking rolled by houndoom, mew, and reuniclus... and pretty much every other stallbreaker. lol

 

[666lumberjack]

Definitely gonna take this set for a spin, but just a quick question, what does the 136 Speed help you outrun? Or is it just specifically for paralyzed Tornadus-T?

It's for 12 Spe base 100s like Defensive Mew, Jirachi, Celebi, Zapdos etc. You can creep more since it's possible that a few of those will run more speed but I prefer the extra bulk, usually you still outrun any of them if they are on a stall team but versus balance it's a little bit more of a gamble. I have considered going up to enough for 36 speed base 100s since that's the default spread for Celebi in the teambuilder (a holdover from when outrunning Tyranitar was actually relevant) but most people seem to be running slower spreads and Celebi doesn't like switching into Heracross in general since most carry Megahorn so I decided to go with the bulk instead.

 

[Jbob777]

Tspikes + fast kings rock pokemon is the future.

you mean skill link Cinccino :/ already happened :(

 

[Royalty]

you mean skill link Cinccino :/ already happened :(

That was the point.

 

[kokoloko]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/underused.288/

this thread is now dead.

sorry OM you are once again irrelevant :(

 

[Arcticblast]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/underused.288/

this thread is now dead.

sorry OM you are once again irrelevant :(

WRONG, Molk'S TIME IS SOON

if he does it through OM at least :x