Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[SJCrew]

Colonial, I'm going to save Chou a bit of trouble in responding to you and point out some of the many major errors that deconstruct your entire post.

The first of them is Stealth Rock being absent in some of your calculations. Even in a metagame with Excadrill and Defog present, no one cites 2HKOs without Stealth Rock.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 146-173 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With regards to Tyranitar, you neglected to mention Sandstorm. Mega Venusaur's function is limited in Sandstorm because with Crunch, Sandstorm, and Stealth Rock damage in conjunction, nevermind Stone Edge, Tyranitar can outdamage Venusaur's measily 25% healing. CB Tyranitar is very good and should never be discounted in a debate. Because of these factors, Venusaur has trouble switching into all but the most defensive of Tyranitar.

Finally, Manaphy defeats Mega Venusaur with +3 Psychic. Thundurus-I can use Nasty Plot and Psychic as well, giving it the option to defeat Mega Saur without giving up coverage against most Dragons and Ground types, but I've never used it. I can personally attest to the effectiveness of Manaphy as a Mega Venusaur lure, however.

 

[Chev]

This argument has been said over...and over...and OVER (particularly with Mega Lucario)...and it's not that good of one. A Pokemon can't have more than four moves--that's a given--but this merely shows the possibilities that a Pokemon can have. Oh, so you thought Mega Venusaur doesn't have Sludge Bomb? Too bad--it does. HP Fire? Yeah...tough luck. Roar? Bye-bye set-up. What's that hidden fourth move? You don't know. What if it's Block? You won't know. Unpredictibility, a weapon mastered by very few, is Mega Venusaur's underhanded trick against many Pokemon.

Just saying, if someone runs mega venusaur without sludge bomb or some poison STAB, they're a fucking twat and should rethink how they expect to ever win. So we can figure he has that move in there or something similar.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Just saying, if someone runs mega venusaur without sludge bomb or some poison STAB, they're a fucking twat and should rethink how they expect to ever win. So we can figure he has that move in there or something similar.

Why? To me, hidden power rock has been much more useful. You don't need Sludge Bomb if your team doesn't have trouble with Fairies or Grass Types.

 

[Subject 18]

Manaphy, Rotom-W, and Thundurus-I: I brought these up together because all three of these are stunningly inaccurate. LO Thundurus has a 4% chance to 4HKO. It can Taunt, but that doesn't matter when Venu has a 62.3% chance to 2HKO back with Sludge Bomb. Specially Defensive Assault Vest Rotom-W is potentially 3HKOd with Giga drain, has a chance to 6HKO in return with Hydro. Physically defensive is 2HKOd with 70% damage done each Giga Drain. +3 Manaphy can 2HKO Mega venusaur, but gets 2HKOd back with Giga Drain, with the health from the attack bringing Venu back out of 2HKO range. Venu wins all three of these fights so easily that I am baffled as to how you thought they would be X. Remember, all of these are special attackers against a M-Venu with no Special Defense or Special Attack EVs. Ox3.

What you said about Rotom-W is entirely true so I won't address that. However, Manaphy and Thundurus don't fall into "O" at all. You completely discounted Psychic Manaphy and HP Flying/Psychic Thundurus-I. I'm going to chalk this up to not having seen these sets but they are very viable and increasingly common in higher levels of play (SPL and OST). Both of which 2HKO Specially Defensive Mega Venusaur after their respective boost. I would say both of these are "X" and becoming more of "XX" scenarios.

If we're suddenly giving Scizor speed for some reason (it very rarely runs speed),

Swords Dance Scizor set should be running speed, there is no reason it should be slower then Rotom-W or even 0 speed Heatran when its trying to setup and sweep. Considering how common both are you should be running speed to beat the ones that run the minimum to beat Heatran with Superpower and Rotom-W with Bug Bite.


SJCrew said similar things.

 

[TrippingRocks]

M-Venusaur is still a powerful threat in the metagame. While he may not be able to wall every pokemon in the metagame, he has the tools to dismantle a good number of his would-be counters. M-Venusaur is undoubtedly a great mixed wall, perhaps even the best in OU, but what makes him truly shine is his offensive stats combined with his bulk. I've personally never used a defensive set for him, I've always used him as a tank, and he makes for a fine one. Very few pokemon can claim to OHKO M-Venusaur unless they've already set up a swords dance or something. Heck, even Talonflame fails to OHKO without a Choice band.
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 264-312 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, M-Venusaur don't have enough power to OHKO Talonflame unless rocks are up...

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 210-247 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...but keep in mind you'd probably wouldn't want M-Venusaur (offensive or defensive variant) to stay in on Talonflame anyway. The point with this calculation is to show that even an offensive M-Venusaur (252 HP and 252 Sp.Atk) can survive most SE hits as long as it's not boosted by anything.

252 SpA Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, if Thundurus-I is at +2 or Manaphy is at +3, then it should be obvious that even a specially defensive M-Venusaur can't wall them if they carry SE moves. Then again... what pokemon exactly CAN switch in on a +3/+2 Manaphy/Thundurus-I? Heck, M-Venusaur IS one of the few that can switch in on them as long as they don't have Psychic.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 90-107 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (resisted STAB Thunderbolt does more damage than Neutral HP ice).

Why would they even run Psychic? I can only think of one good reason why; because it's one of the two weaknesses that M-Venusaur has. Soo.. yeah, a wall can't exactly "wall" something if they're at +2/+3 and they just so happen to carry a SE move specifically for that wall.

Again though, what makes M-Venusaur really stand out isn't just his defensive stats. Granted, they're fantastic and all, but just being a good wall (arguably the best mixed wall) isn't what pushed him to S-rank imo. It's his offensive stats. 100 Atk and 123 Sp.Atk. On top of a base 80 speed. 80 might not seem so great, but when you remember that he's supposed to be a wall/tank, that's fast as heck. 100 atk is pretty respectable and 123 sp.atk is a good base power to have in OU. Slap that together with his excellent bulk, excellent typing (thanks to thick fat) and a good movepool and M-Venusaur is deceptively versatile. Think he can only act as a wall? Think again! He can also be an offensive tank. Is he going to put something to sleep or leech seed? Or is he just going to smack your grass-type with a fully invested sludge bomb? Think your steel types are safe from him? He might just carry HP fire (I usually kill Scizors and Skarmorys off this way). Is Heatran safe from him? Nope, EQ is a solid 2HKO even with 0 atk investments and a negative attack nature.

While his status as the best mixed wall is arguable (Chansey can give him a run for his money), M-Venusaur is also arguably the best specially-offensive tank (rivaled by fellow S-rank Aegislash, who can play mind-games with King's Sheild and hit equally hard from both sides of the spectrum).

 

[Red Cat]

Wow, the quality of posts on this thread has really gone down the toilet. I think people are trying to complicate Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W way too much with all of the calculations and scenarios. I use Mega Venusaur on every one of my stall teams, but it is definitely not S rank material. It does its role (stopping Azumarill, Conkeldurr, and numerous other threats) better than anything else, but it is far from a magic bullet in this metagame. The same goes for Rotom-W and its role. Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W fit very well on teams in this metagame, but they do not define OU; they are just responses to the sheer number and power of offensive threats in OU. No defensive or supportive threats deserve a S rank right now because they cannot keep up with all of the Mega Pinsirs, Mega Charizards, Aegislashs, Talonflames, Manaphys, Kyurem-Bs, and all of the other offensive threats around waiting to rip them apart. So while I love playing stall, I am aware that building a defensive team means that it takes a village in order to even try to stop everything. There are no MVPs on defense in OU, and there won't be unless Lugia or Giratina are brought down which isn't happening. So let's stop beating the crap out of these two and move on.

 

[Punchshroom]

Having seen the arguments made here, Mega Venusaur's flaws are becoming more apparent to me. Sure it could wall like 60-70% of the meta at first glance, but when it comes to moveslots it can only respond adequately to ~40-50%. You have to keep in mind that Venusaur only has 3 moves to retaliate with, and the numerous threats Venusaur would otherwise miss out on without the right attack have to be covered by teammates.

Synthesis - Why won't you be carrying this move on Venusaur? It's what makes it good in the first place.

Sludge Bomb - Venusaur's best neutral attack, which is its strongest move with the additional chance to poison. Deters would-be switch-ins such as Kyurem-B, Pinsir, Volcarona, etc... as well as hitting Thundurus.

Giga Drain - Deals good damage while giving Venusaur slight healing. Unfortunately, it is resisted by a shitton of threats that do like to switch in on Venusaur. Still important for threats such as Tyranitar, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Manaphy, and takes down Rotom-W and Gyarados effectively.

Leech Seed - A mini-version of Giga Drain, but fares better against Grass resists and could potentially deter setup. It isn't too fantastic against offensive teams than against bulky teams though.

Sleep Powder - Immobilizes a potential obstacle. However, this means Venusaur would only have 2 attacks, so more often than not, the opponent would still have stuff that can give Venusaur problems.

Hidden Power Fire - A good response against Steels, though it rarely OHKOes any and would preferably want some offensive investment to truly make it worthwhile. Redundant coverage with Giga Drain due to the threat of Fire-types and Dragon-types.

Earthquake - Also used for Steels, more specifically for Heatran. This does mean Venusaur cannot use a -Atk nature and be forced to use a -Spe nature, leaving it slower than Heatran, which would in turn make it vulnerable to burns. Oh yeah, would also be rendered useless if Rotom-W catches you with Will-O-Wisp on the switch.

Knock Off - A decent crippling move, but doesn't really add to coverage, and it just so happens that the 2 biggest meta threats are Megas that can switch in on Venusaur. It does keep Gengar at bay though.

Roar - Stops threats from setting up on you, and can phaze for hazard damage. However, a mispredict would give the opponent a free hit on Venusaur which the latter cannot really afford, and it cannot stop threats that have boosted on the switch-in, like Garchomp, Scizor, and Tyranitar, without taking some major damage first.

That's a lot of options for Venusaur eh (I my even have missed out on some)? Wouldn't that be a factor for its Rank, you say? Well, I respond with this: "Pick 4, and now have Venusaur's teammates deal with everything it fails to hit." That list is still fairly large, and disproves the notion that Venusaur is as low-maintenance as it lets on. Mega Venusaur is still a solid "glue" Pokemon, but its support can only extend so far, so Venusaur is often used to tie up some loose ends rather than be a full-time 'meta check', partly because it can't really do that anymore what with the new dominant Megas.

 

[TrippingRocks]

Wow, the quality of posts on this thread has really gone down the toilet.

Subjective.

I think people are trying to complicate Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W way too much with all of the calculations and scenarios. I use Mega Venusaur on every one of my stall teams, but it is definitely not S rank material. It does its role (stopping Azumarill, Conkeldurr, and numerous other threats) better than anything else, but it is far from a magic bullet in this metagame. The same goes for Rotom-W and its role. Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W fit very well on teams in this metagame, but they do not define OU; they are just responses to the sheer number and power of offensive threats in OU. No defensive or supportive threats deserve a S rank right now because they cannot keep up with all of the Mega Pinsirs, Mega Charizards, Aegislashs, Talonflames, Manaphys, Kyurem-Bs, and all of the other offensive threats around waiting to rip them apart. So while I love playing stall, I am aware that building a defensive team means that it takes a village in order to even try to stop everything. There are no MVPs on defense in OU, and there won't be unless Lugia or Giratina are brought down which isn't happening. So let's stop beating the crap out of these two and move on.

What exactly makes a pokemon "define" OU? Is being a great offensive threat the only way to define OU? I'd say Rotom-W defines OU pretty well seeing as he's on like... a lot of OU teams. Isn't he THE most common OU pokemon right now in this generation? Usage doesn't exactly prove anything, but it still is an indicator to something. Rotom-W isn't so prolific for nothing. Great typing paired with a great ability. A nice and compact movepool that gives him a ton of utility. Speed isn't the greatest, but as a pivot, a slow volt switch can actually be beneficial. Really, the only "cons" I can think of for Rotom-W is that his HP stat is kinda low and hydro pump is unreliable. He won't be sweeping teams nor will he be walling an entire team, but he grants a ton of utility and momentum along with little opportunity risk. I'm torn between S and A+ rank for Rotom-W, but I wouldn't really mind seeing him in either rank.

Mega-Venusaur on the other hand, simply has no glaring weakness. He's fast for a wall/tank. He hits fairly hard with a base 123 Sp.Atk and can even hit on the physical side thanks to his respectable 100 Atk. His typing paired with his ability leaves him with only two weaknesses, weaknesses that aren't that common. Outside of STAB, only a handful of pokemon carry Psychic/Flying for coverage like Manaphy, Greninja, Thundurus-I, Landorus-I, and Scizor. M-Venusaur might not have leftovers, but he has three other ways of recovery; leech seed, synthesis, and Giga Drain. He has great bulk, a good movepool for offensive or defensive purposes. When it comes to raw offensive power, he obviously doesn't have as much as oh say M-Pinsir, but he comes with a ton more bulk and doesn't really need much support (M-Pinsir would love rapid spin/defog support). M-Venusaur's would-be counters (Heatran and other steel types) need to practice some caution against M-Venusaur as he's more than capable of packing EQ and or HP fire.

Having seen the arguments made here, Mega Venusaur's flaws are becoming more apparent to me. Sure it could wall like 60-70% of the meta at first glance, but when it comes to moveslots it can only respond adequately to ~40-50%. You have to keep in mind that Venusaur only has 3 moves to retaliate with, and the numerous threats Venusaur would otherwise miss out on without the right attack have to be covered by teammates.

Synthesis - Why won't you be carrying this move on Venusaur? It's what makes it good in the first place.

Sludge Bomb - Venusaur's best neutral attack, which is its strongest move with the additional chance to poison. Deters would-be switch-ins such as Kyurem-B, Pinsir, Volcarona, etc... as well as hitting Thundurus.

Giga Drain - Deals good damage while giving Venusaur slight healing. Unfortunately, it is resisted by a shitton of threats that do like to switch in on Venusaur. Still important for threats such as Tyranitar, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Manaphy, and takes down Rotom-W and Gyarados effectively.

Leech Seed - A mini-version of Giga Drain, but fares better against Grass resists and could potentially deter setup. It isn't too fantastic against offensive teams than against bulky teams though.

Sleep Powder - Immobilizes a potential obstacle. However, this means Venusaur would only have 2 attacks, so more often than not, the opponent would still have stuff that can give Venusaur problems.

Hidden Power Fire - A good response against Steels, though it rarely OHKOes any and would preferably want some offensive investment to truly make it worthwhile. Redundant coverage with Giga Drain due to the threat of Fire-types and Dragon-types.

Earthquake - Also used for Steels, more specifically for Heatran. This does mean Venusaur cannot use a -Atk nature and be forced to use a -Spe nature, leaving it slower than Heatran, which would in turn make it vulnerable to burns. Oh yeah, would also be rendered useless if Rotom-W catches you with Will-O-Wisp on the switch.

Knock Off - A decent crippling move, but doesn't really add to coverage, and it just so happens that the 2 biggest meta threats are Megas that can switch in on Venusaur. It does keep Gengar at bay though.

Roar - Stops threats from setting up on you, and can phaze for hazard damage. However, a mispredict would give the opponent a free hit on Venusaur which the latter cannot really afford, and it cannot stop threats that have boosted on the switch-in, like Garchomp, Scizor, and Tyranitar, without taking some major damage first.

That's a lot of options for Venusaur eh (I my even have missed out on some)? Wouldn't that be a factor for its Rank, you say? Well, I respond with this: "Pick 4, and now have Venusaur's teammates deal with everything it fails to hit." That list is still fairly large, and disproves the notion that Venusaur is as low-maintenance as it lets on.

Uh... when you can find a pokemon that can take on an entire team by itself, let me know. Of course M-Venusaur can't hit everything! No pokemon can do that, not even Aegislash or M-Pinsir. Also, with Synthesis, HP fire, Giga Drain, and Sludge Bomb, what pokemon can M-Venusaur not hit for okay-ish damage? The only pokemon I can think of is Heatran and specially defensive behemoths like Chansey.

 

[rachet67]

Having seen the arguments made here, Mega Venusaur's flaws are becoming more apparent to me. Sure it could wall like 60-70% of the meta at first glance, but when it comes to moveslots it can only respond adequately to ~40-50%. You have to keep in mind that Venusaur only has 3 moves to retaliate with, and the numerous threats Venusaur would otherwise miss out on without the right attack have to be covered by teammates.

Synthesis - Why won't you be carrying this move on Venusaur? It's what makes it good in the first place.

Sludge Bomb - Venusaur's best neutral attack, which is its strongest move with the additional chance to poison. Deters would-be switch-ins such as Kyurem-B, Pinsir, Volcarona, etc... as well as hitting Thundurus.

Giga Drain - Deals good damage while giving Venusaur slight healing. Unfortunately, it is resisted by a shitton of threats that do like to switch in on Venusaur. Still important for threats such as Tyranitar, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Manaphy, and takes down Rotom-W and Gyarados effectively.

Leech Seed - A mini-version of Giga Drain, but fares better against Grass resists and could potentially deter setup. It isn't too fantastic against offensive teams than against bulky teams though.

Sleep Powder - Immobilizes a potential obstacle. However, this means Venusaur would only have 2 attacks, so more often than not, the opponent would still have stuff that can give Venusaur problems.

Hidden Power Fire - A good response against Steels, though it rarely OHKOes any and would preferably want some offensive investment to truly make it worthwhile. Redundant coverage with Giga Drain due to the threat of Fire-types and Dragon-types.

Earthquake - Also used for Steels, more specifically for Heatran. This does mean Venusaur cannot use a -Atk nature and be forced to use a -Spe nature, leaving it slower than Heatran, which would in turn make it vulnerable to burns. Oh yeah, would also be rendered useless if Rotom-W catches you with Will-O-Wisp on the switch.

Knock Off - A decent crippling move, but doesn't really add to coverage, and it just so happens that the 2 biggest meta threats are Megas that can switch in on Venusaur. It does keep Gengar at bay though.

Roar - Stops threats from setting up on you, and can phaze for hazard damage. However, a mispredict would give the opponent a free hit on Venusaur which the latter cannot really afford, and it cannot stop threats that have boosted on the switch-in, like Garchomp, Scizor, and Tyranitar, without taking some major damage first.

That's a lot of options for Venusaur eh (I my even have missed out on some)? Wouldn't that be a factor for its Rank, you say? Well, I respond with this: "Pick 4, and now have Venusaur's teammates deal with everything it fails to hit." That list is still fairly large, and disproves the notion that Venusaur is as low-maintenance as it lets on. Mega Venusaur is still a solid "glue" Pokemon, but its support can only extend so far, so Venusaur is often used to tie up some loose ends rather than be a full-time 'meta check', partly because it can't really do that anymore what with the new dominant Megas.

No other pokemon besides Venusaur can wall the range of OU mons that it does, some of these mons being the most threatening in the tier. Because it can wall a significant (like half the tier) portion of OU with ease, similar to how an offensive S rank can sweep a significant portion, I think it should remain S. Not to mention that it literally defines stall this generation, and is one of the few reasons stall can still exist in this meta.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I've read the last five pages of this thread and it's become the same M-Venusaur argument over and over again. I'm just going to throw something out there to steer this thread in a new direction.

Heatran for S-Rank?

From what I've been reading in the past few pages, Psychic and Flying moves are on the rise and M-Pinsir and Charizards are bitchslapping everyone in the tier. With one of Heatran's biggests threats banned and current trend movements, Heatran's becoming more anti-meta than before, specifically the Air Balloon set. With Air Balloon, he checks the big three (Pinsir and both Charizards) and has enough offensive power to force them out.

Furthermore, Heatran carries coverage moves to significantly hurt a good portion of the S and A+ lists.

Aegislash: 12.5% chance OHKO by Fire Blast
Charizard-Y: 12.5% chance OHKO by Ancientpower
Charizard-X: Hurt pretty badly by Earth Power (2HKO)
Mega-Pinsir: KO'ed by Fire Blast
Venusaur: 3HKO'ed by Fire Blast (Venu can't really do much to Air Balloon Tran unless it breaks Balloon and EQs)
Deoxys-S: 31.3% chance OHKO by Fire Blast
Garchomp: 56.3% chance OHKO by Hidden Power Ice
Mega-Garchomp: 2HKO by Hidden Power Ice
Heatran: Air Balloon mirror matchups are gonna be weird, but 2HKOs 252 HP/252 SpDef + Nature Heatran
Kyurem-B: 2HKO by Fire Blast
Landorus-I: Not a good match-up because of Focus Blast, but Hidden Power Ice OHKOs
Landorus-T: OHKO'ed by Hidden Power Ice
Manaphy: Not much tbh
Rotom-W: Same as Manaphy
Talonflame: OHKO'ed by Ancient Power
Thundurus-I: Also not a good match-up becahse of Focus Blast, but Fire Blast 2HKOs

It looks good on paper, but situationally it may be not the same. Regardless, its versatility as both a defensive threat and offensive threat that can check top threats in the metagame provide some evidence for justification as an S-tier threat. This isn't really a positional post, but something that's for ruffling feathers.

 

[rachet67]

I've read the last five pages of this thread and it's become the same M-Venusaur argument over and over again. I'm just going to throw something out there to steer this thread in a new direction.

Heatran for S-Rank?

From what I've been reading in the past few pages, Psychic and Flying moves are on the rise and M-Pinsir and Charizards are bitchslapping everyone in the tier. With one of Heatran's biggests threats banned and current trend movements, Heatran's becoming more anti-meta than before, specifically the Air Balloon set. With Air Balloon, he checks the big three (Pinsir and both Charizards) and has enough offensive power to force them out.

Furthermore, Heatran carries coverage moves to significantly hurt a good portion of the S and A+ lists.

Aegislash: 12.5% chance OHKO by Fire Blast
Charizard-Y: 12.5% chance OHKO by Ancientpower
Charizard-X: Hurt pretty badly by Earth Power (2HKO)
Mega-Pinsir: KO'ed by Fire Blast
Venusaur: 3HKO'ed by Fire Blast (Venu can't really do much to Air Balloon Tran unless it breaks Balloon and EQs)
Deoxys-S: 31.3% chance OHKO by Fire Blast
Garchomp: 56.3% chance OHKO by Hidden Power Ice
Mega-Garchomp: 2HKO by Hidden Power Ice
Heatran: Air Balloon mirror matchups are gonna be weird, but 2HKOs 252 HP/252 SpDef + Nature Heatran
Kyurem-B: 2HKO by Fire Blast
Landorus-I: Not a good match-up because of Focus Blast, but Hidden Power Ice OHKOs
Landorus-T: OHKO'ed by Hidden Power Ice
Manaphy: Not much tbh
Rotom-W: Same as Manaphy
Talonflame: OHKO'ed by Ancient Power
Thundurus-I: Also not a good match-up becahse of Focus Blast, but Fire Blast 2HKOs

It looks good on paper, but situationally it may be not the same. Regardless, its versatility as both a defensive threat and offensive threat that can check top threats in the metagame provide some evidence for justification as an S-tier threat. This isn't really a positional post, but something that's for ruffling feathers.

While Heatran is a fantastic pokemon that walls a ton of top threats and has a great support move pool, the one thing holding it back from being S rank is the lack of recovery period. This limits how many times it can switch in and its is worn down throughout the match. If it is to last the entire match it needs wish support, which is easier said than done considering blissey and chansey, the best wishers, share common type weakness to heatran (fighting). For these reasons, I think Heatran is quite comfortable in A+.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I've read the last five pages of this thread and it's become the same M-Venusaur argument over and over again. I'm just going to throw something out there to steer this thread in a new direction.

Heatran for S-Rank?

From what I've been reading in the past few pages, Psychic and Flying moves are on the rise and M-Pinsir and Charizards are bitchslapping everyone in the tier. With one of Heatran's biggests threats banned and current trend movements, Heatran's becoming more anti-meta than before, specifically the Air Balloon set. With Air Balloon, he checks the big three (Pinsir and both Charizards) and has enough offensive power to force them out.

Furthermore, Heatran carries coverage moves to significantly hurt a good portion of the S and A+ lists.

Aegislash: 12.5% chance OHKO by Fire Blast
Charizard-Y: 12.5% chance OHKO by Ancientpower
Charizard-X: Hurt pretty badly by Earth Power (2HKO)
Mega-Pinsir: KO'ed by Fire Blast
Venusaur: 3HKO'ed by Fire Blast (Venu can't really do much to Air Balloon Tran unless it breaks Balloon and EQs)
Deoxys-S: 31.3% chance OHKO by Fire Blast
Garchomp: 56.3% chance OHKO by Hidden Power Ice
Mega-Garchomp: 2HKO by Hidden Power Ice
Heatran: Air Balloon mirror matchups are gonna be weird, but 2HKOs 252 HP/252 SpDef + Nature Heatran
Kyurem-B: 2HKO by Fire Blast
Landorus-I: Not a good match-up because of Focus Blast, but Hidden Power Ice OHKOs
Landorus-T: OHKO'ed by Hidden Power Ice
Manaphy: Not much tbh
Rotom-W: Same as Manaphy
Talonflame: OHKO'ed by Ancient Power
Thundurus-I: Also not a good match-up becahse of Focus Blast, but Fire Blast 2HKOs

It looks good on paper, but situationally it may be not the same. Regardless, its versatility as both a defensive threat and offensive threat that can check top threats in the metagame provide some evidence for justification as an S-tier threat. This isn't really a positional post, but something that's for ruffling feathers.

Unless you're scarfed, how are you hitting Mega Pinsir, Garchomp, and Charizard X before they OHKO you with EQ? Or are these just with Air Balloon intact? Anyway I agree with Ratchet67, Heatran is great but not great enough for S-rank because it's even more vulnerable to being worn down than Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur and has way more exploitable weaknesses.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

What exactly makes a pokemon "define" OU? Is being a great offensive threat the only way to define OU? I'd say Rotom-W defines OU pretty well seeing as he's on like... a lot of OU teams. Isn't he THE most common OU pokemon right now in this generation? Usage doesn't exactly prove anything, but it still is an indicator to something. Rotom-W isn't so prolific for nothing. Great typing paired with a great ability. A nice and compact movepool that gives him a ton of utility. Speed isn't the greatest, but as a pivot, a slow volt switch can actually be beneficial. Really, the only "cons" I can think of for Rotom-W is that his HP stat is kinda low and hydro pump is unreliable. He won't be sweeping teams nor will he be walling an entire team, but he grants a ton of utility and momentum along with little opportunity risk. I'm torn between S and A+ rank for Rotom-W, but I wouldn't really mind seeing him in either rank.

Well, yeah, I mean... Defensive pokemon comes on rise depending on what big offensive pokemon are used a lot. Mandibuzz can testify that, being all Aegislash wally, and Rotom-W has that utility that it stops several big threats. This means the threat from these mons define the usage of the pokemon, all the while remaining fairly effective otherwise (not like Golurk vs Terrakion in other words). Defensive threats rarely stand out on their own. MVenusaur did that, but I don't think it does anymore. I also find it silly to completely disregard usage in a viability ranking, because the use of mons also has a factor on others... Especially in regard with defensively oriented pokemon.

Mega-Venusaur on the other hand, simply has no glaring weakness. He's fast for a wall/tank. He hits fairly hard with a base 123 Sp.Atk and can even hit on the physical side thanks to his respectable 100 Atk. His typing paired with his ability leaves him with only two weaknesses, weaknesses that aren't that common. Outside of STAB, only a handful of pokemon carry Psychic/Flying for coverage like Manaphy, Greninja, Thundurus-I, Landorus-I, and Scizor. M-Venusaur might not have leftovers, but he has three other ways of recovery; leech seed, synthesis, and Giga Drain. He has great bulk, a good movepool for offensive or defensive purposes. When it comes to raw offensive power, he obviously doesn't have as much as oh say M-Pinsir, but he comes with a ton more bulk and doesn't really need much support (M-Pinsir would love rapid spin/defog support). M-Venusaur's would-be counters (Heatran and other steel types) need to practice some caution against M-Venusaur as he's more than capable of packing EQ and or HP fire.

See, these are things that looks very good on paper, not gonna lie. But, this is a matter of personal experience, I always struggle finding room to use synthesis and recover him up due to having issues with the offensive pressure placed upon me. You don't need SE moves to break him either as gradually wearing him down is much easier than that of other defensive mons like Skarm due to his lack of lefties. Yes, it's quite the important factor to him. This is due to him usually being one of your pivots, and much like Rotom-W, he takes a lot of damage alone from rocks+burn+whatever move the opponent goes for (which isn't a hard assumption due to how he's usually a prime switch to rotom-W). In other words, it's not hard to disregard the possibility of him losing around 30-35% every turn he switches in... meaning he gives free turns a bit too often as he's forced to recover up if he doesn't want to die next time he switches in.

 

[Wobbyble]

Heatran for S-Rank?

Yeahhh, no.

Mega-Venusaur on the other hand, simply has no glaring weakness.

No leftovers on a wall, 4MSS, loses to many top tier threats, and 512 EV syndrome. Partially kidding about the EVs. The only thing it can reliably switch in on from S-A+ tier is Landorus-T and maaaybe like Aegislash. It counters and shits on Conkeldurr, Azumarill, and Keldeo, but is a situational check to everything else depending on the opponent's move set and Venusaur's spread/moves.
Mega Venusaur has incredible base stats, a great ability, decent coverage, decent recovery, impressive walling and stalling capabilities, and good typing for the most part. However, Mega Venusaur is predictable, easily gimped by Psychic coverage, can be inconsistent with what it actually checks, is crippled stupidly hard by burns, and has weak statusing capabilities. Not S rank imo.

Thundurus suffers extremely hard from 4MSS, Taunt and Thunderwave being needed for utility but creates a lack of offensive power. A Nasty Plot set lacks team utility, is vulnerable to priority, dies very quickly with Life Orb, lacks S tier hitting power without Life Orb. A Leftovers utility oriented set has very little offensive power and has very little wall-breaking power. It's a very strong pick overall, but each of its individual sets lack in strength in a particular important aspect, so Thundurus I should not be S rank.

 

[114]

Wow, the quality of posts on this thread has really gone down the toilet. I think people are trying to complicate Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W way too much with all of the calculations and scenarios. I use Mega Venusaur on every one of my stall teams, but it is definitely not S rank material. It does its role (stopping Azumarill, Conkeldurr, and numerous other threats) better than anything else, but it is far from a magic bullet in this metagame. The same goes for Rotom-W and its role. Mega Venusaur and Rotom-W fit very well on teams in this metagame, but they do not define OU; they are just responses to the sheer number and power of offensive threats in OU. No defensive or supportive threats deserve a S rank right now because they cannot keep up with all of the Mega Pinsirs, Mega Charizards, Aegislashs, Talonflames, Manaphys, Kyurem-Bs, and all of the other offensive threats around waiting to rip them apart. So while I love playing stall, I am aware that building a defensive team means that it takes a village in order to even try to stop everything. There are no MVPs on defense in OU, and there won't be unless Lugia or Giratina are brought down which isn't happening. So let's stop beating the crap out of these two and move on.

Agree 100%, put it perfectly. Mega venusaur can stop a lot, but in the end it folds under pressure like any other wall in the meta. It's got great utility, but not S ranked.

 

[Chou Toshio]

If we change the definition of "O" from "Is a good switch in and can reliably win"
to
"Is a good switch in and can reliably win several times throughout the match."

How does this change?

The ability to win several times is worth considering, and it's true that Rotom-W can't do it as often as Mega Venusaur. That said, the high paced and offensive nature of the metagame makes this less useful. While Stall v. Stall (or even stally bulky offense) does result in longer battles, these match-ups are a minority of matches in XY. When weighing a Pokemon's defensive ability in regards to this list, I think the ability to handle tough situations from the offensive behemoths that set the overall tone of the metagame is a more important trait than continuous victory.

This is especially true since Venusaur is far from the only defensive Pokemon able to capably switch into other Defensive threats. Switching into defensive Pokemon isn't even Venusaur's forte, and outside its ability to take Knock Off, Venusaur isn't (from my experience) the most useful Pokemon when fighting Stall v. Stall (you'll likely need a different member to crack the enemy's defensive core).


I agree with the point you made about Scizor, and Freeze Dry Mamoswine is noteworthy (as Mamo only really needs 2 slots for good coverage), though Talonflame is kind of pushing it (since getting up SD is not easy for Talonflame, and Talon is piss-poor weak usually without its item). I'd still say Rotom-W is closer to O against Talon, and maybe closer to an X against Mamo.

@ Chou Toshio Sry but your list is just as wrong as Grey Knights was.

Charizard X and Aegisslash are X easily, Landorus-T, Rotom, Thundourus are an clear O since they cant harm venu in the least. Dragonite, Gyarados, Gengar, Mandibuzz, Scizor and Tyranitar are wrong as well. I am not sure about Garchomp but i am pretty sure that venu beats him as well. Honestly Colonial showed most of that several times already i recommend reading his posts.

Your response is wrong in relationship to my definitions.
XX - is NOT a good switch-in and loses OR cannot gain an advantageous position easily

Charizard X and Aegislash are not X, and fit my definition of XX-- Venusaur has no way of easily gaining advantage against them. Venusaur cannot switch into them and hope to check without immediately being forced to Synthesis-- giving the opponent a chance to switch into their Venusaur check and putting you in the worse position. Clearly, this matches my XX Definition.


X - Is a good switch in but has a good chance of losing or ending up in the worse position

Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Thundurus are not clear O, but fit the above description of X.
Take Rotom-W-- Venusaur IS a good switch in to Rotom-W (since it can take anything Rotom-W uses), BUT it will end up in the worse position against Rotom-W the majority of the time. The typical Rotom-W carries WoW, Volt Switch, Hydro Pump, and Rest or Pain Split-- but Venusaur ends up in the worse position against ALL of these attacks except Hydro Pump. Venusaur can't shake a burn or prevent Rotom-W from healing and switching out, while if it comes on Volt Switch it will immediately be in a worse position. Seeing as Hydro Pump is Rotom-W's least spammable attack, Venusaur ends up in a worse position the majority of the times it switches into Rotom-W. If you don't know this, you clearly haven't used Venusaur before.
Meanwhile Psychic Thundurus (and HP Flying Thundurus) always beats a Venusaur switch-in, and Landorus-T can beat it as well with SD or Fly sets (both of which are viable). Clearly, they are X.

Since you haven't given any other arguments worth noting-- I'll just say that in regards to the other Pokemon you mentioned-- you're also wrong.

Chou Toshio a lot of the threats that you considered as X seem to be boosting sweepers. Isn't Roar a completely viable option on Mega-Saur to beat those pokes (ex. SD mawile / DD Gyarados with Ice Fang)

It's true that Roar can be an asset (though Venu's got so much 4MSS as it is...), but if you look at the definitions-- Roar does not change those X to O, so the list would be the same.


Colonial-- too long, not going to take the time to discount all of your points, but the long and short of it is that your post clearly shows you did not read my definitions carefully and think about how they apply to the threats (that you're wrong about). If you had read the previous posts in this thread regarding them, you would have understood why you're wrong.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hi folks. Thanks for your contributions to this thread.

Since the posts are starting to repeat themselves, and it's clear discussion isn't moving forward-- we want to re-shift the line of discussion.

We've heard enough about Pinsir, Charizard, Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Aegislash, and the group of OU battlers and mods who vote on this list are currently making decisions on that in our own circle.

At this time we would like to divert discussion to just the S nominations for Thundurus and Heatran.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'll start off by stating the obvious: Heatran is good and all but its lack of reliable recovery makes it prone to being worn down easily. A+ is fine for it.

I'm interested to hear about Thundurus though, but I can't really see it at S

 

[trc]

Honestly, Thundurus is so versatile that I can easily see it in S Rank. It is most commonly seen running Thunder Wave + 3 Attacks, which is a great set that is both powerful and has great coverage, while also being able to cripple fast sweepers. Anyway, the reasons it is so good from an offensive standpoint are primarily due to its great attacking stats, which at 115 / 125 allow it to easily run either a special set, a physical set, or a mixed set. Its Speed sets a great benchmark for being fast; it allows Thundurus to outspeed other common "fast" threats such as Latios and Gengar. In terms of offensive prowess from a special point of view, aside from the standard STAB move in Thunderbolt, it also has Focus Blast for Excadrill and Ferrothorn, Hidden Power Ice to form "BoltBeam" coverage, and even Grass Knot, which while not as relevant as it was in BW and has somewhat redundant coverage, Thundurus can still use it occasionally if necessary. So yeah, the 3 Attacks + Thunder Wave set works greatly in terms of specially attacking sets, but try not to forget its other special option, Nasty Plot. Priority Nasty Plot is just great because it allows Thundurus to set up before it could get Taunted, and it becomes able to start smashing through things, hard. This in combination with its great Speed and perfect coverage make it a fearsome sweeper. Both Choice Specs and Choice Scarf sets are also viable, with different inherent advantages and disadvantages.

On the mixed side, Thundurus has access to Superpower which allows Thundurus to break through Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar easily. It also has U-turn, which aside from generating momentum, also allows Thundurus to get past trapping mons, which while rare, are still relevant enough for U-turn to be helpful. Volt Switch works in a similar vein. It also hits Pokemon that are weak to it fairly hard if running some Attack investment. A nice idea for mixed sets that I have been running recently to great success, is the ability Defiant when used on a Hyper Offense team. This allows Thundurus to be used as Defog bait to the hazards that Deoxys-S / Deoxys-D / Froslass / Smeargle set up and immediately gives at a +2. With Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Ice, U-turn, and Knock Off, Thundurus can obtain momentum not only with U-turn, but also with Knock Off, which hits really hard at +2 to things like Aegislash, and Kings Shield won't have any negative effects, similar to Bisharp. Bulk Up is also a viable option to boost both Thundurus's Attack and Defense.

From a supportive point of view, an excellent option on Thundurus is Taunt, which not only allows it to, you know, Taunt setup sweepers before they can set up, but also completely shut down Baton Pass teams, as they have an inability to Baton Pass to Espeon before they get Taunted. While weather is not as relevant as it was in BW, Prankster Rain Dance allows Thundurus to set up rain quickly for the whole team, which also gives it the option to use Thunder on any of its sets.

It also has a limited amount of checks and counters. Anything faster that can revenge kill it (aside from a few Electric- or Ground-type exceptions) can all be crippled by Thunder Wave, so they are effectively trading their revenge killer's ability to function for the rest of the game just for Thundurus's life). Celebi, Gourgiest-XL, and Trevenant are the best checks to it, and they are hardly common or relevant in OU at the moment. Other special walls such as Blissey and Goodra can wall special sets, but Superpower or Knock Off on mixed sets are crippling, especially on ones that get to +1 or +2. Chansey hates Knock Off as well. With Expert Belt, it can bluff the set it is running to enable it to eliminate something that can supposedly take care of it.

Essentially, my point is that the sheer versatility that Thundurus poses, the fact that it can hit off of both sides of the spectrum, its immense supportive abilities, its specialized movepool, its excellent Speed stat, its great stats, and the difficulty it takes to counter it makes it definitely worth of S Rank.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Regarding Heatran:

Hide

Aegislash XX

Charizard (Mega-Y) - XX

Charizard (Mega-X) - X - usually a safe switch in but loses to ones with earthquake

Pinsir (Mega) - XX

Venusaur (Mega) - X - usually walls but loses to ones with earthquake

A+ Rank

Deoxys-S - XX - superpower

Garchomp / Garchomp (Mega) - XX

Heatran - XX

Kyurem-B - XX - earth power

Landorus-I - XX

Landorus-T - XX

Manaphy - XX

Rotom-W - XX

Talonflame - O

Thundurus-I - XX - loses to focus blast

A Rank

Azumarill - XX

Bisharp - XX

Conkeldurr - XX

Deoxys-D - X - can't really stop it from laying hazards, and you can end up taunted anyway

Dragonite - XX

Excadrill - XX

Gengar - XX - Focus Blast 2HKOs

Greninja - XX

Gyarados / Gyarados (Mega) - XX

Keldeo - XX

Latias - X - walls but can't do anything back

Latios - XX - 2HKOed by specs surf, can't do anything back

Mamoswine - XX

Mandibuzz - X - Stalemate

Mawile (Mega) - X - Usually walls but loses badly to sub-punch sets

Scizor / Scizor (Mega) - X - usually walls but loses to speed-invested super power sets

Terrakion - XX

Tyranitar / Tyranitar (Mega) - XX

A- Rank

Clefable - O

Skarmory - O

If Mega Venusaur is being heavily considered by many to be put into A+ because it can't counter top threats, then something that can counter even less top threats and with no form of recovery should not be S.

 

[indian]

although heatran is a very good pokemon and checks some of the very prominent metagame threats its lack of recovery and weaknesses to vey common earthquake and fighting and water type attacks really hurt its walling capabilities. the post made by sergent snooky is a very good proof of this. A+ is fine for heatran.
Thundurus is interesting as it has some very obvious flaws like not very good coverage and stealth rocks weakness.

 

[Timpsu]

Just before we move in to other ranks, I would also like to see some discussion on Heatran's other sets. Right now, we've been mostly discussing Heatran's Sp. def. set (which arguably is the most common one), but even it's OU analysis is getting Scarf and Specs sets, among others. If offensive sets are indeed viable, I wouldn't necessarily count Heatran out of the S-rank discussion, because of the unpredictability. This is, ofc, if offensive sets are deemed good in this metagame.

 

[Punchshroom]

Already talked about Thundy-I.

Thundurus-I practically fits the definition of S Rank already: the only real flaws I see it having is its SR weakness and lack of bulk. Thundurus-I isn't seen Volt Switching very often as it isn't designed as a bulky pivot like Rotom-W or Landorus-T, so Stealth Rock doesn't seem like too huge an issue (still a thorn in its side though). The lack of bulk is unfortunate, but it still has great resists like Flying, Bug, Steel, Ground, and Fighting, so it can still take a hit if need be, and said bulk is sufficient enough for Thundy to take the neutral attacks of most defensive Pokemon. Easily Thundurus-I's biggest selling point is its versatility, and unlike Rotom-W it hardly has to sacrifice much, if any, of its offensive potential. Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot, and Taunt already give Thundurus-I some excellent utility, and its offensive movepool plus stats lets it strike damn near everything enough to deter most switch-ins: Superpower nails pink blobs and Assault Vest Tyranitar, while Psychic / HP Flying can make Venusaur pause, and of course Nasty Plot helps boost its attacks even more. There are even physical Defiant Thundurus to serve as anti-Defoggers, and its physical movepool, with coverage moves including the aforementioned Superpower plus Knock Off and U-turn, isn't even shabby at that. You can't even revenge kill this thing easily due to its great speed plus Prankster Thunder Wave just to drive that point home. Thundy-I should be given another shot for S Rank.

Great power and utility at the same time, with a wide enough movepool to do anything you want it to do (except wall, which I'll bet it can if it has Prankster Roost :/ ). Essentially what Jukain said, really. Only a handful of Pokemon in the whole S and A Ranks can afford to switch into Thundurus without hesitation.

Heatran is an interesting case. Its ability to spread burns (or status in general) can allow it to outlast most Heatran responses despite its lack of reliable recovery, and it has great defensive typing, a decent support movepool, and some degree of offensive presence (mainly Lava Plume burns). However, Heatran is still switch-bait for Pokemon who can't / do not mind getting burned while not being weak to Ground, such as Conkeldurr, poisoned Gliscor, Lati@s, Manaphy, Keldeo, and even stuff like Greninja and Landorus-I. I've seen offensive Heatran sets, but I don't think that being able to run competent offensive sets or defensive sets would give Heatran the bump. Offensive Heatrans now cannot threaten its switch-ins with frequent burns (plus the Steel coverage doesn't really help much), so now Heatran would instead have to look out for Fire-resistant Pokemon such as Garchomp, Tyranitar and Azumarill which it cannot do much about. Still a solid A+, but I don't think it would go higher.

Hide

For the record, I don't really mind Mega Venusaur staying in S.

 

[Colonial]

Hmph. Try to shoot down my points and then I'm prevented from making a counter-argument by a change in discussion. "X if there is any chance Venu will come out of the battle in any way worse off", by that logic nothing will ever be O against anything with U-Turn, and almost nothing will ever be O for anything with a status move (Aegislash can Toxic Mandibuzz! Mandi isn't a safe switch in!)

But whatever. I was just repeating myself over and over again anyway and nobody (Including myself) read anyone else's arguments all the way through, so fresh discussion is welcomed.



I agree with Sergeant Spooky: Heatran is in a worse position then Megasaur, all those 4x resistances are compromised by being weak to the 3 most common attacking types in OU. It has no chance of beating so much of the metagame, and lack of recovery is bad too. Not S Rank. I'll expand in this in a moment.

Not much to say on Thundurus. I've used it but not enough to really know it's ins and outs.

 

[Pipotchi]

Thundurus seems good for S rank tbh. He's one of the pokemon who can be brought out at any point in the match and make a difference, whether he leads with taunt, cleans up with np, shuts down a sweeper with thunder wave, or acts as a midgame scout with volt switch. what makes thundurus so volatile I guess is that he can fit several of those roles in the same set, while retaining good coverage with his pseudo boltbeam- and he has the option of running physical attacks to act as a lure seeings as he has a great base attack too. He is also a sweeper who cannot be safely revenged with priority, as outside of talonflame everyone else will get paralyzed with thunder wave for their troubles. When played correctly he will always make a good impact on the enemy team, considering the only typing that he cant status or hit for much damage is electric, and the only 2 electric pokemon usually seen both have secondary typings which make them neutral to electric.
On the other side, he is very prone to being worn down especially when using life orb. This is a big deal but considering the S rank is currently team 50% hp, I doubt it will hinder the decision too much. His potential is still there, and stealth rock is not overly difficult to remove