XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Plat]

Plat There are actually multiple pokemon who can effectively run an Assault Vest set. I am currently in love with using Entei, and I am also wanting to try out other users of it such as Slowbro, Metagross, maybe even AV Zapdos or Mienshao could be cool. When it comes to Assault Vest, your horizons are almost endless.

No I know there are other pokemon but a lot of people slap assault vests on rather mindlessly and ignore the rather large tradeoffs that come as a result. Meloetta is one of the best pokemon suited for it because it doesn't have any killer recovery moves that it will miss out on, it doesn't have nasty plot or swords dance so it rarely tries to set up, and it relies on serene grace to deal effects instead of status moves. Meloetta hates being choiced because a vast part of it's appeal is that it simultaneously can function in two ways that require different counters, and life orb reduces it's survivability. Sure missing out on leftovers is never fun, but it's a pretty good tradeoff for being a psychic type that can negate it's weakness to it's common weaknesses (ghost and dark) through typing and prediction.

Meloetta is also a pretty great counter to Mega Houndoom:

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Sun: 222-264 (54.9 - 65.3%)
252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Sun: 229-271 (56.6 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which means Meloetta is guaranteed to get the relic song off, outspeed the next turn and demolish with close combat.

0- Atk Meloetta-P Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 314-372 (107.5 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even if Mega houndoom carries sucker punch, it is only doing around 9-11% to a timid Meloetta-p.

 

[ryan]

Just a short thing, but I run Knock Off on literally every Mienshao set because it hits almost everything that standard Mienshao couldn't touch last gen. Even if I need Aerial Ace on Scarf Mienshao for a team that is relatively weak to opposing Heracross, I'd still run Knock Off and probably just cut Stone Edge because the only thing I ever ran that for last gen was Chandelure.

I'm chill with everything else that was written in response to my post though. I'll probably always dislike Doublade, but I can see it in B. If it ends up going way up in value in order to handle Hawlucha, I'll totally be down for moving it back up.

 

[NotBruceWayne]

S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

I think Slowbro should move down to A+ rank simply because of the fact it's 2x weak to the omnipresent VoltTurn combination. That buff to Knock Off also hurt it a bit as if it gets stripped of Assault Vest, then the purpose of AV Slowbro tanking hits from both sides of the spectrum is defeated. Though 80 SDef is still great, but probably not S rank.

I'm a little undecided about Hawlucha. It says in the OP that one can easily perform multiple roles effectively. Other than a late game sweeper, what else can this masked bird do? It is indeed pretty good. With that base 118 Speed, it outspeeds some fast Electric types. It misses out on Jolteon though, arguably one of the best Electric types on the tier, so for now, I nominate Hawlucha to A+.

A Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Nominating Entei to A rank. CB Stab Sacred Fire coming from a base 115 Atk will dent anything that doesn't resist it. The Defog buff probably helps Entei's case as Choiced mons usually switch in an out a lot so the Defog buff gets Entei more switch in opportunities. Having 50% chance to burn is always good too.

I don't understand what Raikou is doing in B+. Raikou is good enough to be A- imo. SubCM Raikou was the biggest threat to the UU scene last Gen and I believe it hasn't changed at all. Shaymin could also make a case because Seed Flare lol. Rotom-H can also create free turns easily with Volt Switching and Tricking shenanigans.

That's all for now lol

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Nominating Dusclops and Dusknoir to be removed from list. I'd like to know what these two do that Cofag or Doublade can't. They're extreme setup bait for anything with a Substitute. I don't really get what niche any of the current D-Rankers have that can't be performed better by something else, honestly..apart from Shedinja which is also extremely flawed

 

[TM13IceBeam]

does chesnaught really do anything noteworthy other than being a hard counter to crawdaunt and choiced shadow ball/focus miss users? i mean, i'd get that chesnaught would probably be A+ if crawdaunt is the best thing in the metagame, but the problem is that it isn't (and clearly everyone believes it isn't: it's not even S-rank ffs).

dusknoir shouldn't even be on the list: it's basically a less bulky dusclops that's still, surprise surprise, is as susceptible to knock off! dusknoir's only advantage is like an increase in attack, but that's barely relevant when most of the time you're going to be attacking with stoss/shade anyway.

im kind of iffy about dusclops (i guess cursesplit is still a thing? idk) though. he's still an extremely bulky mofo and you can still stop setuppers with curse (although you pretty much die in the process)

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Chesnaught can handle the majority of physical attackers in the tier and its great typing and ability allows it to deal with some special attackers as well. The combination of spiky shield+leech seed+spikes allows it to do exactly the same thing ferrothorn does in ou, as such its extremely hard to switch in and can easily wear down its own counters with little trouble. Its fine at A+.

 

[Loudo]

My opinion on the current S and A+ ranks.

Hydreigon S --> A+
While Hydreigon is indeed a beast, I don't believe it qualifies for S rank. If it did, it should be able to "sweep significant portions of the metagame with little support." However, witout a Choice Scarf (which takes away its fantastic coverage) it is too slow to sweep, and using Draco Meteor, which is a big part of what makes it so difficult to deal with, forces it to switch out. It also has problems with Fairies and Chansey.
In other words, I see it more as a hit-and-run Pokémon that does require teamwork to really shine.

Slowbro S --> A+
Pretty much all of the most threatening physical attackers in the tier can learn either U-turn or Knock Off. And even with an Assault Vest, it is quite helpless against a significant portion of the special attackers.
From S and A+ ranks alone, it straight up loses against Mega Houndoom, Hydreigon, Suicune (set up fodder), Mega Blastoise, Celebi, Chandelure, Crawdaunt, and Zapdos, while being a shaky check to other entries as well.

Celebi A+ --> A-
It's great to wall Keldeo (if it lacks HP Bug), but what other threats does it reliably wall? Hawlucha has STAB Flying, Mienshao has 4x SE U-turn, and the meta in general is filled with Dark- and Fire-types.

Mew A+ --> S
Mew definitely qualifies as "Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively." It is one of the best physical walls in the meta, with Will-O-Wisp, reliable recovery, good stats all around, and useful resistances. It is one of the easiest defogger to slap in a team. And it can still fill a multitude of other roles thanks to its insane movepool (Swords Dance sweeper, special wall, Baton Passer, yadda yadda).

Mienshao A+ --> S
I think Mienshao qualifies for the S rank much better than Hydreigon. With U-turn and Knock Off it can hurt most Pokémon that are supposed to wall it, while keeping momentum or severely crippling them. And thanks to its great Speed and a physical equivalent of Draco Meteor that can be spammed without lowering your Attack (and which can be further boosted by Reckless if you don't care for Regenerator), it can sweep entire teams once its counters are gone.

Zapdos A+ --> S
Zapdos is pretty much the definition of Pokémon that requires no support and can be slapped in any team. With good stats and Roost it is very durable and Electric is a powerful offensive type. Its great typing makes it a great Hawlucha counter.

 

[Blast]

Nidoqueen should really be higher, its greater bulk over Nidoking is way more significant in more scenarios than not (ex. LO Mienshao 2HKOes King with no hazards while only having a 15.6% chance of 2HKOing 168 HP Queen even after SR), and the power difference is barely even noticeable since Sheer Force LO hits really hard anyway. Plus, Modest Nidoqueen actually even hits slightly harder than Timid Nidoking (and even with Modest King only hits like ~8% harder). The only significant advantage King has is its higher Speed which is admittedly pretty nice vs. stuff like non-Scarf Chandelure and uninvested Celebi but even so I'd still prefer Queen in 90% of scenarios, since at least from my experiences its greater bulk checks way more threats than King's Speed does. At the same time I think Nidoking should be lower than Mid-A since like I said Queen is just as good (if not better), so I'd nom both for Low-A.

Also Omastar should be ranked imo, Weak Armor is a pretty okay niche over other Shell Smashers and Weak Armor + Spikes is actually not horrible as a suicide lead for HO teams where Defogging or spinning is setup bait for strong sweepers like Hawlucha. It's different from Froslass because it's actually strong and can keep up offensive pressure from turn one, and against special walls like Florges and Chansey it can just set up Spikes. Not exactly the best mon ever since it's slow as hell before a boost and it's kind of food for Mega Blastoise but it definitely at least has a niche (albeit a small one). C or C+ would probably be about right for it.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I really don't know why Hawlucha's up in the S tier. I understand that its whole Unburden jazz outspeeds the entire metagame, but it needs quite a bit of team support to break through some of the bulkier Pokemon in the metagame. I ran some calcs with Adamant itemless Hawlucha versus some of the bulkier mons in the meta. Mew takes 38.6 - 45.5% from Acrobatics, Blastoise-Mega takes 37.2 - 43.9% from Acrobatics, and Mega-Aggron takes 38.3 - 45.6% from HJK. Although it can sweep every other frail Pokemon, Hawlucha does need significant team support to take out some of the bigger defensive threats in the UU meta right now.

 

[Loudo]

I ran some calcs with Adamant itemless Hawlucha versus some of the bulkier mons in the meta. Mew takes 38.6 - 45.5% from Acrobatics, Blastoise-Mega takes 37.2 - 43.9% from Acrobatics, and Mega-Aggron takes 38.3 - 45.6% from HJK.

I think you are forgetting that in the turn that you need in order to switch these Pokémon in battle, Hawlucha can Swords Dance or Sub. After SD, Hawlucha 2HKOs all of them.

 

[C AllStar]

Chesnaught can handle the majority of physical attackers in the tier and its great typing and ability allows it to deal with some special attackers as well. The combination of spiky shield+leech seed+spikes allows it to do exactly the same thing ferrothorn does in ou, as such its extremely hard to switch in and can easily wear down its own counters with little trouble. Its fine at A+.

Saying that Chesnaught can handle the majority of physical attackers is simply not true. As what I have posted before, Chesnaught can only hard counter Crawdaunt and Krookodile out of the physical attackers in S/A Ranks (and Hippowdon if you count). Other than those two, it can at best shaky check others (LO Mienshao does ~50% while it needs to predict on Spiky Shield vs possible Sub/SD) or counter some of their sets (DD Zygarde without LO, Scarf Heracross but i guess walling a scarfer is a great threat and CC still does ~40%). I will give you the point of being easy to weat down its counters, but its checks and counters are far to relavant and prevelant (30/42 S/A Ranks) that makes it hard to function. Not to mention it is often deadweight against teams without Crawdaunt and Krookodile. Having great physical bulk and recovery options is good, but its typing simply sucks for the metagame aside from the niche of taking on common Knock Offers. Chesnaught is pretty bad and would be C-/D Rank if Knock Off is banned. But I guess B- Rank is rank is suitable for it despite me using it for 70% of my stall teams...

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Chesnaught is not bad LOL, it can wear down almost anything with leech seed+spiky shield+spikes and has just the right typing to check several top threats. Saying that its checks are prevalent is irrelevant when they are forced to lose a bunch of health everytime they try to come in on it. Thats what makes it good, there are almost no safe switch ins and nearly every single physical threat is forced into mindgames with spiky shield.

 

[Loudo]

I agree that A+ is probably too much for Chesnaught, but B- is definitely too ungenerous. I believe it can still fit somewhere in the A rank, but if not it's B+ at worst.

The thing about Chesnaught is that not only is it a decent wall, but it can also support its team in two ways:
1) Set up Leech Seed, making it easier for a teammate to switch in;
2) Set up a layer of Spikes, providing long term support.

So even if half of your team is made of Pokémon that can handle Chesnaught, Chesnaught can still use that one turn you need to switch them in to provide some benefit for its team.

EDIT: Also, Knock Off is not banned, so any speculation about how good Chesnaught would be in a Knock Off-free environment is completely irrelevant.

 

[C AllStar]

In order to support its team with leech seed+spiky shield+spikes, Chesnaught needs to have a chance to come in. However, all the top theats it counters is basically Crawdaunt and Krookodile or you can count Aerodactyl, Doublade, Rhyperior if you search for lower ranks. Other things it supposed to check like Heracross, Mienshao, Zygarde, Mega Absol etc actually have good ways to get pass it.

It's typing doesn't even come close to good except for checking certain dark types. Its poor typing and special bulk makes it countered by 80% of the tier. While it is good that it can weaken checks coming on it, in reality usually more than half of a UU team or even the entire team checks or counters Chesnaught, not to mention many of them (Latias, Zapdos, Florges etc) have reliable recovery and can outlast it.

Doing some damage to its counters mean nothing when it simply struggles to find opportunities to come in (Crawdaunt won't spam attacks when Chesnaught exists. Mixed Rampados may have zero safe switch ins, but suck with its inability to swich in. Chesnaught is absolutely deadweight against teams without Crawdaunt and Krookodile as every offensive mon can 2HKO or set up on it despite what its good physical bulk suggests. While it can certainly provide support to its team when it successfully come in, it usually lacks the chance to come in and it is the single worse spiker in the tier. Despite its great support movepool, Chesnaught is just a niche mon that somehow stops 2 not even top threats and is otherwise utter trash.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I've had issues with Hawl whenever I play stupidly, but I don't think it's S worthy. For Hydre, I've literally never had an issue, but then again I run specially defensive Zap and Hippo AND Cobalion.

I think Zygarde should be S over Hawlucha, Zyg can actually use different sets, one for beating stall (Coil/D-tail) and another for beating offensive teams (E-peed/DD). Renu with it's CM/Recover Sets kind of shit on stall too.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

on to other things:

leavanny - wait what this is b+? you pretty much don't have the bulk to setup web more than once, and sticky web + knock off is illegal, something which apparently nobody ever understands (sewaddle doesn't get knock off god damn it sewaddle doesn't get knock off). this guy does literally nothing other than web and die (and if you're not using web you might as well not use leavanny). shuckle does leavanny's job a lot better and can at least do stuff like encore. this guy should be a c+ at best lol. he can web, yes, but he's not even very threatening since sticky web = no knock off

vaporeon - personally i found vaporeon to be a really effective cleric, wishpasser and status abuser, and i think it should be pretty worthy of a b+. he can take special hits pretty well and his wishes, while not as big as chansey's, are still really big.

 

[TPO3]

Nidoqueen should really be higher, its greater bulk over Nidoking is way more significant in more scenarios than not (ex. LO Mienshao 2HKOes King with no hazards while only having a 15.6% chance of 2HKOing 168 HP Queen even after SR), and the power difference is barely even noticeable since Sheer Force LO hits really hard anyway. Plus, Modest Nidoqueen actually even hits slightly harder than Timid Nidoking (and even with Modest King only hits like ~8% harder). The only significant advantage King has is its higher Speed which is admittedly pretty nice vs. stuff like non-Scarf Chandelure and uninvested Celebi but even so I'd still prefer Queen in 90% of scenarios, since at least from my experiences its greater bulk checks way more threats than King's Speed does. At the same time I think Nidoking should be lower than Mid-A since like I said Queen is just as good (if not better), so I'd nom both for Low-A.

If this were Black/White UU, I would definitely agree with you, since Nidoking/Queen's resistances were much more prevalent in that metagame. Nidoqueen/King resisted 2 of the 'Big 3' types in that tier, in Fighting (Mienshao, Heracross, Scrafty, Cobalion, and more) and Electric (Zapdos, Raikou) and it checked the 3rd type in Fire by setting up Stealth Rock and also threatening a STAB Earth Power. It was a great way for offensive teams to keep little shits like Chandelure and Victini off the field while having something to very reliably check Electric types and all Fighting-types save for LO Reckless Mienshao, which was exceedingly rare.

In this metagame however, Nidoqueen's ability to switch into the top-level threats has been severely diminished. It still switches into Fighting-type attacks just fine (although it still doesn't like Hawlucha Acrobatics), but Heracross and Mienshao are a lot less common than they once were. They were at one point in the top 5 of usage stats at the same time, which is significantly higher than they are now. If you look at the top-tier threats now, I see Water and Psychic everywhere. Mew, Latias, Suicune, Slowbro, Mega Blastoise, Crawdaunt, Azelf, and this is only in A-rank and above. As you said, against pokemon like Celebi, Chandelure, Suicune, etc. I'm going to prefer the extra speed and power that Nidoking provides more than the bulk that Nidoqueen provides.

I do agree that Omastar should be ranked though. If it gets a Shell Smash off, it does work against Offense teams, and with the proper support, it can break through more balanced and defensive ones, and it turns any choiced Fire-type into an instant liability It does need quite a bit of support, however, so I would agree that C or C+ would be a proper spot for it.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Sean, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even ladder bruv? jkjks mane, get on skype.

I could see Cobalion moving up to A- tier simply because the defensive sets are just as viable. Run Taunt, Volt, Close Combat, + Iron/HP Ice, you got yourself a might good pivot.

Every tier below A I think is spot on, I just think those S mons are not nearly as good as people make them out to be.

 

[radianthero156]

sub red card hawlucha seems a really great idea. what exactly does it run (evs, moves, etc)? and what are good teammates?

 

[Ernesto]

I guess that cat's out of the bag, isn't it Limitless ? :\

Here's the set:

Hawlucha @ Red Card
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 232 Spd / 252 Atk / 24 HP
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

It basically guarantees at least one kill against defensive teams—only having to worry about Physically Defensive Zapper and Doublade, since Slowbro gets 2HKOed before it can KO back. And that's saying a lot, believe me. It's obviously harder to pull off both boosts against offensive teams because they're gonna attack you, but as a lategame sweeper it can actually do well without SD. A slow passer or U-turner is recommended so that the opponent is less tempted to stay in, though, since there are many offensive mons capable of tanking one hit.

I don't really know why it works (I wasn't aware Red Card activated behind a Sub until Limitless brought it up; I thought it'd be like a combination of Rocky Helmet and Cursed Body, neither of which activate), but it does and it wrecks so much, lol.

EDIT: Oh yea, Speed EVs give you 330, which allows you to outspeed Rash Raikou and +Spe base 100s, sorry. I had to say that so much that I ended up forgetting it when it mattered the most, lol.

EDIT 2: RIP SubCard Hawlucha, you're gonna be missed

 

[radianthero156]

so, does red card activate if the foe hits through a substitute? in PO this seems to not happen, how is it in the game?

 

[Forsety]

so, does red card activate if the foe hits through a substitute? in PO this seems to not happen, how is it in the game?

I don't really know why it works (I wasn't aware Red Card activated behind a Sub until Limitless brought it up; I thought it'd be like a combination of Rocky Helmet and Cursed Body, neither of which activate), but it does and it wrecks so much, lol.

That is because it doesn't, Red Card activating from behind a Substitute is a pretty major glitch if it happens on Showdown and it does not work like that in game. In the actual game in order for Red Card to activate you must actually be hit directly by an attack.

So if this tier list ranking for Hawlucha is based on this so called aforementioned 'broken' Red Card Sub set then it is actually utterly illegal and you should probably re-consider it.

EDIT:
Just whipped up a Red Card Sub test in game for peace of mind and unless I've suddenly turned retarded in the last 10 minutes it confirmed what I just said that it's a major Showdown glitch.

 

[NotBruceWayne]

Just whipped up a Red Card Sub test in game for peace of mind and unless I've suddenly turned retarded in the last 10 minutes it confirmed what I just said that it's a major Showdown glitch.

So wait, Red Card doesn't activate behind Substitute? If that is the case, then moving Hawlucha down to A+ seems like the right move.

And regarding that set posted above, I'm curious about what it outspeeds given those 232 Spd EVs and an Adamant Nature before Unburden.

Ernesto edit: Thank you for reminding me, I dunno how I forgot. Already edited in :)

 

[Dalibor]

I really don't see how Celebi is ranked so high. It has a terrible defensive typing and other pokes such as Mew pretty much do the same as Celibi. Albeit, it is a good poke, but I just don't see it being as high as it is.

 

[Swagodile]

I really don't see how Celebi is ranked so high. It has a terrible defensive typing and other pokes such as Mew pretty much do the same as Celibi. Albeit, it is a good poke, but I just don't see it being as high as it is.

The SD set with Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, and Sucker Punch is great.