dweb can set hazards
foongus / cottonee are grass and can para stuff
pawniard is a bulky steel w/ SR
none of these outclass ferroseed because they don't have twave, hazards, grass/steel typing, and mixed bulk
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
foongus / cottonee are grass and can para stuff
pawniard is a bulky steel w/ SR
none of these outclass ferroseed because they don't have twave, hazards, grass/steel typing, and mixed bulk
Ferroseed doesn't have sturdy like dwebble. It doesn't have prankster like cottonee, or an effective move like taunt, or spore like foongus, who also has clear smog. Pawniard can also be offensive and has a resistance to ice type moves. Just because ferroseed has a unique combination of things does not mean that it's not outclassed in certain roles.
Also, literally nothing else in the entire game has a grass/steel typing except Ferrothorn. Ferroseed doesn't have a fairy/grass typing.
ok stop using the standard spreads for the calculator, literally those spreads are trash and there's no reason to use any defensive spread for ferroseed other than 23/18/18. i dont even know how 0 hp ferroseed became the most used spread...
and yeah ferro is definitely not useless, im leaning towards B but its a very safe switch in to chinchou, magnemite, spritzee, foongus, etc
glassglaceon was right when he said that dwebble was superior in spike stacking. i dont know where you're going to get three turns to stack up 2-3 layers of spikes with ferroseed. spikes is only cost opportunity and slot efficient when expended early game, which is something ferroseed struggles to do. its not that relevant of an argument because as a whole they do different roles, but if you look only at spiking, dwebble is better
and yeah ferro is definitely not useless, im leaning towards B but its a very safe switch in to chinchou, magnemite, spritzee, foongus, etc
glassglaceon was right when he said that dwebble was superior in spike stacking. i dont know where you're going to get three turns to stack up 2-3 layers of spikes with ferroseed. spikes is only cost opportunity and slot efficient when expended early game, which is something ferroseed struggles to do. its not that relevant of an argument because as a whole they do different roles, but if you look only at spiking, dwebble is better
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
then essentially nothing is outclassed by anything ever unless it's higher in the evolution line by your definition of outclassed. It's common knowledge that missy outclasses gastly in almost every role, but no gastly has a poison typing so it isn't outclassed. That's flawed logic.
We also never said it was a crap mon. B tier isn't a bad tier, but when I'm giving a reason for it to be moved DOWN, I'm not gonna just highlight all of ferroseed's strength and talk about how bulky it is, and how many things it walls, and how many top-tier things it forces out. I'll wait for you to bring up the point, then bring up a returning comment if i feel it needs correction. Ferroseed walls things, yes. i was kinda retarded in bringing up shield in the same post earlier (altho my positioning still stands) but i'm not gonna sit here and sing it's praises to try and hope it falls down a ranking.
THANK YOU FOR AGREEING WITH ME
dwebble and ferroseed have NOTHING in common except they both have access to stealth rock and spikes, are physical attackers, and resist normal. they fill entirely different niches and have entirely different uses.
pawniard is a steel-type with stealth rock, but it lacks ferro's support movepool and has pitiful special bulk and no water resist or ground neutrality or 2x fighting
foongus and cottonee are both defensive grass-types but neither of them have ferroseed's unique and godly defensive typing
ferroseed is a gastly to no pokemon's misdreavus. the only reason anyone ever used gastly was to kill swirlix, and swirlix is gone. poison's resists don't matter because gastly is a wet paper bag, the only poison resist that is worth anything is fighting (which gastly is immune to anyway), and it sucks against meditite because it can't take a psycho cut.
nothing can do all the shit ferroseed does at the same time: it's a mixed bulky grass-type, a mixed bulky steel type, a hazard setter, and neuters with twave any non-electric non-ground sweeper without a fighting or fire move.
let's move pawniard to b-rank too, it has a 4x fighting weakness so therefore it's bad
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gastly: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
gastly can't afford to run bulky shit because if it doesn't ohko it dies
extra spa and stab coverage is kinda countered by misdreavus being able to nasty plot past anything that could have walled it (like spritzee)
i think that sludge bomb just isn't worth losing bulk, nasty plot, and 19 speed
the only gastly that i would use is scarf gastly because it has more than 19 speed and scarfers can't run nasty plot
blegh. i don't think gastly is worthless, but it IS basically outclassed by misdreavus, who can play a similar role as a fast, strong ghost-type, except just better. ferroseed doesn't have that sort of straight downgrade-y-ness, compared to foongus or cottonee, that gastly does with misdreavus. They're all Grass-types but Ferroseed plays much, much differently.
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
gastly can't afford to run bulky shit because if it doesn't ohko it dies
extra spa and stab coverage is kinda countered by misdreavus being able to nasty plot past anything that could have walled it (like spritzee)
i think that sludge bomb just isn't worth losing bulk, nasty plot, and 19 speed
the only gastly that i would use is scarf gastly because it has more than 19 speed and scarfers can't run nasty plot
blegh. i don't think gastly is worthless, but it IS basically outclassed by misdreavus, who can play a similar role as a fast, strong ghost-type, except just better. ferroseed doesn't have that sort of straight downgrade-y-ness, compared to foongus or cottonee, that gastly does with misdreavus. They're all Grass-types but Ferroseed plays much, much differently.
Abra is certainly not C-Tier in my opinion. It has blazing fast Speed and very high SpA, while having a fantastic ability. It may have very little bulk, but it is sort of a "mixed attacker", and isn't even supposed to stay in and take a hit, just to hit hard what it can then leave. I think it should be B at least, I'd stretch for A if it didn't have a huge priority weakness, but still.
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 196 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 9-13 (32.1 - 46.4%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 84 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 84 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 196 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 9-11 (32.1 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 11-14 (52.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Misdreavus can't break through anything it wants just because it has Nasty Plot. Now that it must pick between basically Dazzling Gleam or Thunderbolt, it cannot break normal types, which Gastly can cut right through. Just click Sludge Bomb or Shadow Ball, and whatever comes in is basically OHKO or 2HKO'd unless it is Pawniard or Stunky.
Also, Gastly is the fastest Poison type in the tier and by far the most offensive one. Gastly is a Poison type before it is a Ghost type.
Last edited:
If you are referring to Psyshock making Abra a "mixed" attacker then you should probably know that there are roughly negative 12 instances where Psyshock is better. The only time Psyshock is advantageous is against boosted CM Spritzee or like a Mantyke. It's worse against Bulk Up fighting types, Wish Spritzee, Porygon, Larvesta, Shellder, Foongus, etc etc.
It's C rank because no one knows how to use Abra properly and everyone uses the bad Sash set. Life Orb only has 20% usage which is pretty saddening. The few times I have seen LO Abra, my opponent saved it until late game, when it's best used to pressure early game with its retarded power, similar to LO Krow but without recoil. It sounds silly but it's only C rank because no one uses it correctly, so we all have deflated opinions of it. Honestly, it should be B rank.
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.1 - 61.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
edit: As for Gastly, it has a role similar to LO Abra because of how easily it can wall-break with its special attack stat combined with LO. Misdreavus barely gets the 3HKO on Spritzee with Shadow Ball and can't touch Porygon even with HP fighting, while LO Gastly can 2HKO Porygon cleanly and OHKO Spritzee, so it definitely has uses.
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
wobby i said in ALMOST every situation, not every situation
Actually, for your last point, Gastly has first typing of Ghost, so it is Ghost before it is Poison.
Misdreavus now has Dazzling Gleam, also, if you have a Scraggy/Fighting-type weakness, it also can use HPFighting to hit Normal-types for more damage. I see what you're trying to say, but Nasty Plot Misdreavus is more of a mid/late-game sweeper, as it's not going to be breaking through any decent wall early-game. Misdreavus requires a wallbreaker, like Meditite or Pawniard, to go through and break walls down before it can o in and do any sort of sweeping.
I meant that Gastly is a Poison type before a Ghost type because it plays that way, not that it literally is Poison / Ghost. When you play with Gastly, it will be using Sludge Bomb as it's main attacking move, not Shadow Ball. Sludge Bomb is more powerful than Shadow Ball, so it's Gastly's most spammable move if you will. Gastly without Sludge Bomb is not a Gastly at all.
Even with Hidden Power Fighting, Misdreavus still does not OHKO any normal type at all, in fact it won't even be a guaranteed 2HKO on Lickitung. So yes, Misdreavus is a late game cleaner with Nasty Plot, Gastly is a Wall breaker with Life Orb. Therefore Misdreavus does not do whatever Gastly can do better, as Darkamber was suggesting. It clearly has it's own niche and is more dangerous (imo).
Last edited:
If a Gastly is spamming Sludge Bomb, that just makes it more easy to counter. Sludge Bomb is an awful move to spam due to its awful coverage. Ghost is much easier, and far better, to spam due to its neutral coverage.
Gastly is by no means more dangerous than Misdreavus. Gastly doesn't have the fearful 19 Spe like Misdreavus has, and is thus outsped by top-tier threats including Misdreavus herself and Murkrow. Many special walls including Lickitung and Munchlax, without SR, easily counter Gastly just as easily as they would Misdreavus. However, Misdreavus can neuter both of these switchins with Will-o-Wisp, something Gastly can't due to its lack of any sort of bulk. Gastly also doesn't have Nasty Plot, or the ability to run several sets that each function extremely differently, like Misdreavus can. I see what you mean about them being different, to an extent, but making it out to seem like Gastly is more fearsome in this metagame than Misdreavus is, is absolutely absurd.
Whatever outspeeds Gastly in the 19 - 20 Speed tier cannot switch into Gastly reliably:
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 17-21 (77.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (not sure if this the standard spread but it certainly cannot come in reliably)
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Elekid: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Diglett: 21-25 (116.6 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
How does Lickitung counter Gastly? It does not, it is a check, but a very shaky one as the chance to 2HKO is 11.3% combined with a chance of 30% of Poison from Sludge Bomb mean it can be 2HKO'd about 20% of the time. Lickitung can also do literally nothing to Disable Gastly. Misdreavus will NEVER break through a full health Lickitung even with Will-o-Wisp; a Burned Knock Off or Shadow Ball from Lickitung will still beat Misdreavus.
The same goes for Munchlax;it also cannot touch Disable Gastly either.
I consider it more dangerous because it has far fewer checks: it has Pawniard and Stunky, and to some extent Sandile but it loses to Choice Scarf Gastly. Misdreavus has many more: Porygon, Munchlax, Pawniard, Stunky, Lickitung, Houndour, Murkrow, Litleo, Carvanha, etc.
The strength from LO Gastly comes in the form of Subsititute; If it forces a switch (which is not hard to do at all) You must stomach an attack from 19 SpATK boosted by Life Orb. This is not the case with most Misdreavus, as they must take a turn to boost and generally do not give up Will-o-Wisp for Substitute. Even if they do, 236 SpATK Shadow Ball from Eviolite Misdreavus is no where near the power of Life Orb 196 Shadow Ball / Sludge Bomb from Gastly. In fact, Gastly hits only slightly less hard as a +2 Misdreavus with no set up.
Last edited:
You guys are forgetting something. You have to use it with Sludge Bomb though.
0 Atk Life Orb Gastly Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
I used to spam LO Gastly in Gen 5 and it worked wonders. Idk if it's still good now. I don't quite agree with Shouting, overall I think Misdreavus is typically a stronger and more reliable pick than Gastly. But the times I have used it, it has performed exceptionally well because the the extra stab coverage, SpA, and power from Sludge Wave/Bomb. They perform different roles and you cannot definitely say that Misdreavus outclasses Gastly.
0 Atk Life Orb Gastly Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
I used to spam LO Gastly in Gen 5 and it worked wonders. Idk if it's still good now. I don't quite agree with Shouting, overall I think Misdreavus is typically a stronger and more reliable pick than Gastly. But the times I have used it, it has performed exceptionally well because the the extra stab coverage, SpA, and power from Sludge Wave/Bomb. They perform different roles and you cannot definitely say that Misdreavus outclasses Gastly.
Last edited:
ferroseed gets burnt OR gets hit with shadow ball + OHKO'd with +2 NP the next time it comes in, and missy doesn't mind bullet seeds if it IS carrying taunt (although nobody does)
scraggy gets dg'd
lickitung is used less than duskull heh
but if you really, really hate porygon that much, i suppose gastly is viable??
scraggy gets dg'd
lickitung is used less than duskull heh
but if you really, really hate porygon that much, i suppose gastly is viable??
Gastly is very viable as a disruptor: Subnosis, subdisable and ScarfSwitcheroo still have their niches.
Gastly is still inferior to Misdreavus as it doesn't have the versatility Missy does and is not a GREAT disruptor, but it is still viable with that SpA and access to two viable sets Missy can't run. I'm cheering for C.
Edit: Now I see it in B; I don't think it deserves B, its niche is very little and with Knock Off everywhere it really can't be run in many teams.
Gastly is still inferior to Misdreavus as it doesn't have the versatility Missy does and is not a GREAT disruptor, but it is still viable with that SpA and access to two viable sets Missy can't run. I'm cheering for C.
Edit: Now I see it in B; I don't think it deserves B, its niche is very little and with Knock Off everywhere it really can't be run in many teams.
Last edited:
After using it quite extensively today, I'd like to nominate Trubbish for B rank. Trubbish has an incredible support movepool, including Toxic Spikes and Spikes, Sticky Hold, allowing it to counter Knock off users much more easily, Recycle, allowing it to recover over and over as it wishes with berry Juice, Spikes and Toxic Spikes, making it the perfect partner with Stealth Rock Pawniard, a pretty good movepool of coverage, including Drain Punch, which allows it to counter counter Pawniard and OHKO it, and it hits 17 Spe, which allows it to outspeed 16Spe mons including Pawniard.
Last edited:
SR Pawniard and Trubbish is definitely the best hazard core in the current meta imo. They cover weaknesses very well, Trubbish Hard-counters non-Meditite Fighters, while Pawniard deals with Psychic types. Both are weak to ground, but really, what can take advantage of that. The only thing off the top of my mind that beats both of them is, ofc, Bulky Meditite. It's a really good core, Pawn takes Defogs, adding a Ghost takes care of spinning, its really good at keeping hazards up. It should be considered on any team, and its just...... really good
tl;dr, Trubbish needs to be at least B rank.
IMO Koffing and Tyrunt need to drop down to C rank already. Koffing has almost no niche right now without Swirlix anymore, seeing as it hardly even "counters" any of the Fighting types in the meta. I don't even know what niche Tyrunt has. It can set Stealth Rocks, and then slap something and die. I'll take Dwebble, Lileep, Pawniard, Tirtouga, or even fucking Aron anyday over Tyrunt.
Why don't people understand that Gastly is not playing the same role as Missy. Its job is to be a wallbreaker with powerful LO Sludge Wave's and Shadow Balls. It has basically no safe switch ins and puts tons of pressure on the opponent. I'm not saying its a better pokemon than Missy, it just plays differently.
Abra for B rank.
I think Abra is currently in the C-Rank because of the set that in my opinion is much worse than a lifeorb set. Let's compare the two sets.
The Focus Sash set (which I believe is much more common):
Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SAtk / 196 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Protect
This set is good for taking down Pawniards if you still have your focus sash, but that's about the only advantage of this set. Sure, you get two hits to KO the likes of Timburrs and Meditite but Life Orb Abra can OHKO them a good majority of the time anyway and the Focus Sash set will be left at 1 HP for priority to kill.
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 26-34 (104 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.
The better set in my opinion is:
Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SAtk / 196 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Substitute/Shadow Ball
- Protect
This set allows you so many more OHKOs, can still beat Pawniard if it switches in on a dazzling gleam, and chunks tanks like a champ. (2HKOs Spritzee with any sort of previous damage)
In conclusion, I think Abra is unfairly placed at C-Rank due to the worse set being more common and the better set not being used to it's full potential.
P.S. Sorry if my formatting sucks, first long post on smogon. :]
I think Abra is currently in the C-Rank because of the set that in my opinion is much worse than a lifeorb set. Let's compare the two sets.
The Focus Sash set (which I believe is much more common):
Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SAtk / 196 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Protect
This set is good for taking down Pawniards if you still have your focus sash, but that's about the only advantage of this set. Sure, you get two hits to KO the likes of Timburrs and Meditite but Life Orb Abra can OHKO them a good majority of the time anyway and the Focus Sash set will be left at 1 HP for priority to kill.
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 26-34 (104 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.
The better set in my opinion is:
Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SAtk / 196 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Substitute/Shadow Ball
- Protect
This set allows you so many more OHKOs, can still beat Pawniard if it switches in on a dazzling gleam, and chunks tanks like a champ. (2HKOs Spritzee with any sort of previous damage)
In conclusion, I think Abra is unfairly placed at C-Rank due to the worse set being more common and the better set not being used to it's full potential.
P.S. Sorry if my formatting sucks, first long post on smogon. :]
- Status