np: XY UU Stage 0 - I Lived

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Knock Off isn't a "broken" move. People can learn to play around it. I don't think it would be banned anytime soon.

In line with the Knock Off topic, I think that Crawdaunt will see a lot of use in UU. Gamefreak gave the lobster a lot this Gen with Knock Off and priority in Aqua Jet.

MatrixMedic said:
UU has been mad fun recently. As said before Mega-Aggron is a monster, and probably my favorite mega of the tier. Also is it just me or is Heliolisk blisteringly fast with max speed+timid? It surprised me by outspeeding an unburdened Hawlucha and OHKOing it with a specs thunderbolt.
Is Heliolisk that fast? I'm pretty sure an Unburdened Hawlucha is faster. Might have to check that out for myself. I do agree with Mega Aggron being a defensive beast. With Wish-support, most likely from Florges as they make a pretty damn good defensive duo, it forms a very potent core to build around. I've been running one with 252 HP / +252 SDef / 4 Atk and its been really good mixed wall.

Stall took a hit with that Defog buff and maybe even that Knock Off buff. And with stallbreakers like Reuniclus, wallbreakers like Keldeo (it isn't BL yet isn't it?) and everyone running Knock Off residing in the tier, Stall can be in for a challenge in UU. It is still a pretty good play style. People just have to play around the new stuff.
 
I really enjoy seeing how the metagames are established. Waiting till the pokemon find their place in the metagame, introduting a new beta version, see how the pokes are going along, bann small groups of too threatening pokemon and then declare a new meta in which the banned Pokemon are slowly released back in case the meta feels strong enough to handle them.
 
If i could make one suggestion I would recommend adding Latias to the temporary banlist/ suspect testing list.

If one reads Latias's B/W article on the Checks and Counters section, you will find several pokemon listed. These include Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Skarmory, Weavile, Mamoswine, and a plethora of Dragons advised to wear Choice scarfs in order to outspeed and revenge kill it's dangerous base 110 speed.

This X/Y UU tier does currently have stops to Latias in the form of Mega-Aggron, Specially Defensive Jirachi, Chansey, Florges, Assault Vest Metagross, Carbink, Umbreon, and others I am sure I have not mentioned. However, the coverage moves Latias has at its disposal can take care of many of these pokemon. And sadly, the fact that the next strongest Ice Shard users are Piloswine, Abomasnow/Mega Abomasnow, and Sneasel isn't comforting.
{DISCLAIMER: I do realize Specs is not the only viable item, as it is more uncommon. I just wanted to demonstrate the power}
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 324-382 (84.3 - 99.4%) Guaranteed OHKO after stealth rocks
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 298-352 (77.6 - 91.6%) Guaranteed OHKO after stealth rocks
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 224-268 (58.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aggron: 310-366 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 186-219 (54 - 63.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Carbink: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 193-228 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 255-300 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%)

Latias's base 80/90/130 still make it difficult to revenge kill. The best way to revenge kill Latias is still to use a scarfed Dragon. However, with the addition of Fairies in X/Y, spamming Outrage is a thing of the past. The weaker Dragon claw is ever more present. The lack of strong Ice Shard users is still disheartening.

252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 162-192 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 344-408 (113.9 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yet the problem remains that choice scarfed-locked pokemon force a potential switch into a fairy type and accomplish nothing.

I also recognize that faster things in the metagme still do exist to kill Latias. Pokemon such as Noivern, Mega Absol, Cincinno, Ambipom, etc. still do exist. But very few things appreciate switching in on a Life orb or Specs Draco Meteor/ Psyshock. I also have read other posts talking about banning knock-off and Chansey, both of which help stop Latias. And let us not forget about the potential danger of the calm mind set.

I am not calling for a ban. I just implore the council to consider Latias's place in the metagame. It is fast, bulky, and dangerous.
 
I'm going to be completely honest: I find the UU metagame to be really lame right now. I have a thing about not using legendaries because I find them really boring and over centralizing, so it's really tough to find a good team when there are so many good legendaries and psuedo legendaries in the tier. I asked in the simple questions thread about how to deal with Keldeo and Jirachi, and got told about 3 to 4 options each, one of which would have to be a dedicated special wall. That bugs me a lot. People keep talking about how good the metagame is, but what about people who don't want to use the same cookie cutter team that everyone else is using? I don't want to use Latias, I don't want to use Keldeo or Jirachi. It also doesn't help when the guy in charge of decisions in the tier makes bans without reasons, leaving someone like me very confused considering those weren't the problem pokemon in the tier. That, paired with how good knock off is and it basically makes me want to run a pokemon with no item, which is insane that I have to even think about that, it all makes me want to stop playing UU, to be quite honest.

The meta right now seems very against the spirit of Pokemon, and that bugs the hell out of me.
 
If i could make one suggestion I would recommend adding Latias to the temporary banlist/ suspect testing list.

If one reads Latias's B/W article on the Checks and Counters section, you will find several pokemon listed. These include Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Skarmory, Weavile, Mamoswine, and a plethora of Dragons advised to wear Choice scarfs in order to outspeed and revenge kill it's dangerous base 110 speed.

This X/Y UU tier does currently have stops to Latias in the form of Mega-Aggron, Specially Defensive Jirachi, Chansey, Florges, Assault Vest Metagross, Carbink, Umbreon, and others I am sure I have not mentioned. However, the coverage moves Latias has at its disposal can take care of many of these pokemon. And sadly, the fact that the next strongest Ice Shard users are Piloswine, Abomasnow/Mega Abomasnow, and Sneasel isn't comforting.
{DISCLAIMER: I do realize Specs is not the only viable item, as it is more uncommon. I just wanted to demonstrate the power}
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 324-382 (84.3 - 99.4%) Guaranteed OHKO after stealth rocks
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 298-352 (77.6 - 91.6%) Guaranteed OHKO after stealth rocks
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 224-268 (58.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aggron: 310-366 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 186-219 (54 - 63.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Carbink: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 193-228 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 255-300 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%)

Latias's base 80/90/130 still make it difficult to revenge kill. The best way to revenge kill Latias is still to use a scarfed Dragon. However, with the addition of Fairies in X/Y, spamming Outrage is a thing of the past. The weaker Dragon claw is ever more present. The lack of strong Ice Shard users is still disheartening.

252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 162-192 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 344-408 (113.9 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yet the problem remains that choice scarfed-locked pokemon force a potential switch into a fairy type and accomplish nothing.

I also recognize that faster things in the metagme still do exist to kill Latias. Pokemon such as Noivern, Mega Absol, Cincinno, Ambipom, etc. still do exist. But very few things appreciate switching in on a Life orb or Specs Draco Meteor/ Psyshock. I also have read other posts talking about banning knock-off and Chansey, both of which help stop Latias. And let us not forget about the potential danger of the calm mind set.

I am not calling for a ban. I just implore the council to consider Latias's place in the metagame. It is fast, bulky, and dangerous.
I like how almost all of your calcs assume modest nature for latias which it never and should ever use, or how you use 0 sp def aggron and non bold florges spread. The worst part however is your double standard that aparently choice dragons are bad, except when its latias lol. That post was ridiculously biased, latias has a bunch of counters and checks and its overreliance on draco meteor makes it setup fodder for dangerous threats. Its perfectly balanced and healthy for uu, theres zero reasons to even consider banning it.
 
I'm going to be completely honest: I find the UU metagame to be really lame right now. I have a thing about not using legendaries because I find them really boring and over centralizing, so it's really tough to find a good team when there are so many good legendaries and psuedo legendaries in the tier. I asked in the simple questions thread about how to deal with Keldeo and Jirachi, and got told about 3 to 4 options each, one of which would have to be a dedicated special wall. That bugs me a lot. People keep talking about how good the metagame is, but what about people who don't want to use the same cookie cutter team that everyone else is using? I don't want to use Latias, I don't want to use Keldeo or Jirachi. It also doesn't help when the guy in charge of decisions in the tier makes bans without reasons, leaving someone like me very confused considering those weren't the problem pokemon in the tier. That, paired with how good knock off is and it basically makes me want to run a pokemon with no item, which is insane that I have to even think about that, it all makes me want to stop playing UU, to be quite honest.

The meta right now seems very against the spirit of Pokemon, and that bugs the hell out of me.

Well, just by saying legendaries, u won't be getting any sympathies, since just being a legendary does in no way imply that the actual Pokemon is even decent. Take for example Articuno, which has been in NU for God knows how long. It is true that UU has experienced some kind of power creep in this generation, but really, every generation brings a power creep, whether it be a bigger or smaller one. The metagame always revolves around strong and fast attackers, and that's just how it usually goes. If u don't feel like resorting to those, u can always make teams to counter said threats, but there is a reason the tier's called UU and not RU or NU. If u feel like u want to use something really unorthodox, there is always room for those, and usually that's what NU consists of, u will have to wait for that tier. Given the tier is balanced, u will always find options to counter or atleast check the dominant Pokemon, even if the answer won't be to your liking.

More to the point, the UU at this point isn't technically an official tier, it is a betatier. It means, that the tier is being built constantly, which is why some quickbans have been established. Most of the Pokemon, if not all, will go through a suspect test at some point, so there's no need to panic even if there are Pokemon who u don't redeem broken. I don't know what u imply with "the spirit of Pokemon", but competitive battling has always revovled around a metagame, that usually consists of strong, fast threats, who need to be taken into consideration if u wish to build a decent team. I don't think that spirit has changed, even though the threats have.
 
Don't give me that "well not all legendaries are broken" arguement. That has nothing to do with the point I'm making. Of course Articuno's going to be worse, it's a generation 1 legendary with a terrible typing, a very poor move pool and a pretty sub par ability. But what does that have to do with Keldeo, who has far better optimized stats, a great ability in Justified, a very solid typing with a great move pool to cap it off?

The point I was making was that the biggest threats in UU right now are legendaries that are unreasonably hard to stop. In order to stop Keldeo, I have to run Slowbro/Roserade/Jellicent, and none of those are solid counters because of Icy Wind and Hidden Power, or if it runs any physical move. Even then, what other threats does that open my team up to because I have to run something specifically to deal with Keldeo? It's not fun to play with. Just because these legendaries can't hang in OU doesn't mean they can be stopped in UU.
 
Keldeo's ability is useless outside of a mixed set, which literally never happens because of Secret Sword. In fact, Keldeo has pretty massive 4mss, so it's not going to beat Slowbro/Roserade/Jellicent, always. You're going to run STABs, which leave you with just 2 options, neither of which are going to beat everything. Or if it's an Expert Belt set that kills you, doesn't that mean your own team is weak to EB Keldeo?

The most common Keldeo set is a choice set, which is stupidly easy to beat once he locks himself into something: it's all a matter of predicting what move is Keldeo going to use. CM and EB are the only other common sets, but EB loses to scarfers forever and CM has to forego 1 coverage move.

Keldeo doesn't beat everything in the metagame: it's hardly broken. If Keldeo can run Substitute, Calm Mind, Surf/Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Icy Wind and Hidden Power all at the same time, then it's very likely broken. But right now, it's definitely not...
 
I'm sorry I used the Articuno card, but you were talking of legendaries in general. Now I know we're talking of Keldeo, Jirachi, and Lati twins. It is true that especially Keldeo is a toptier threat, able to pose a huge threat on most of the metagame. As you presented, there are good counters to the Water/Fighting-typing, which become checks with a given coverage move. However, you don't need to be able to counter Keldeo if you don't like it's counters. You can also try to check it. Most Megas sit on a better speed tier than Keldeo, and another option is to use a Scarfed mon. And as it was presented on the post above me, Keldeo's STABs are poor moves to be locked into, and it's easier to get past it if u can scout it's moveset. Also there's the 4MSS issue, it can't take on all of it's counters/checks.

When it comes to Jirachi, it's hard to give counters, since Jirachi can have many potential movesets. However, as is the case with Mew, it can wield a great many things, but it is hardly the best option to most of its movesets. It can be Scarfed, it might be defensive, it might want to flinchhax. There are still good counters to T-wave, and Scarfed Jirachi doesn't hit very hard. The Lati twins are pretty great also, but they can be checked/countered also. Fairies are always a good call, and u might want to consider some AV-mons to take on strong special attacks. However, even these Pokemon can be countered, or atleast checked with a good scarfer. As someone said earlier, using Draco Meteor leaves a Pokemon on -2 stat, giving you a good opportunity to setup. Either way, if these Pokemon really become too broken, they will be suspected.

Also regarding the post above me, what kind of scenario are you referring to? Ofc there's no need to stay in after Keldeo has been locked to a move, but u shouldn't imply that the momentum stays on the opponent's side after it has used a move with Keldeo. You might have switched the right 'mon on Keldeo, and thus flipped the momentum to your side. That's what I'm implying when I say that Keldeo's STABs have flaws.
 
What gives me trouble is when I try to flip momentum, I just get counter flipped, because they'll have something that can easily counter one of my checks/counters for Keldeo. Jirachi just flinches me to death and if I send out, say, a Jolteon to deal with it, they've got a ground pokemon or something with volt absorb to stomach it. Latias gave me no trouble at all until M-Gardy and Weavile were banned, now I can't deal with all three on one team. It's just not happening.
 
I'm going to be completely honest: I find the UU metagame to be really lame right now. I have a thing about not using legendaries because I find them really boring and over centralizing, so it's really tough to find a good team when there are so many good legendaries and psuedo legendaries in the tier. I asked in the simple questions thread about how to deal with Keldeo and Jirachi, and got told about 3 to 4 options each, one of which would have to be a dedicated special wall. That bugs me a lot. People keep talking about how good the metagame is, but what about people who don't want to use the same cookie cutter team that everyone else is using? I don't want to use Latias, I don't want to use Keldeo or Jirachi. It also doesn't help when the guy in charge of decisions in the tier makes bans without reasons, leaving someone like me very confused considering those weren't the problem pokemon in the tier. That, paired with how good knock off is and it basically makes me want to run a pokemon with no item, which is insane that I have to even think about that, it all makes me want to stop playing UU, to be quite honest.

The meta right now seems very against the spirit of Pokemon, and that bugs the hell out of me.
If you think the metagame is bad just because you don't want to use legendaries, that's entirely your problem. Successful players use what's available to them, regardless of arbitrary classifications such as whether or not a Pokemon is "legendary". Complaining about a metagame because you don't want to use certain Pokemon is absurd. Completely disregarding the fact that you can make a good team without using legendaries, why should the metagame be altered just because you don't like something? Besides, Keldeo isn't anywhere near broken in the current metagame, receiving a grand total of zero "ban" votes on the latest council vote, and possessing plenty of viable checks and counters.
 
If you think the metagame is bad just because you don't want to use legendaries, that's entirely your problem. Successful players use what's available to them, regardless of arbitrary classifications such as whether or not a Pokemon is "legendary". Complaining about a metagame because you don't want to use certain Pokemon is absurd. Completely disregarding the fact that you can make a good team without using legendaries, why should the metagame be altered just because you don't like something? Besides, Keldeo isn't anywhere near broken in the current metagame, receiving a grand total of zero "ban" votes on the latest council vote, and possessing plenty of viable checks and counters.
If five pokemon were causing teams to become at least 3 of those pokemon per team, I'd be complaining either way. How can you honestly say that it's not over centralizing?
 
honestly jirachi, keldeo, mew, tornadus, zapdos, victini, shaymin and latias are just about as equal and threatening as some of the other pokemon in the tier. they're all threats that you have to prepare for. you need to prepare for haxorus, chandelure, darmanitan, heracross, crawdaunt, mienshao, hawlucha and roserade too, among other 'its-not-a-legend-hence-its-alright-to-me" pokemon. heck, these guys have offenses that actually beat out your so-called "overpowering" legendaries! a latias draco meteor is scary, but so is a haxorus outrage. keldeo hydro pump is strong? lol nope, say hi to crawdaunt and his knock offs. tornadus tearing up shit with knock off, acrobatics, and regenerator? fuck you, hawlucha is already getting his 6-0s with unburden and +2 hi jump kick. victini and his v-creates are scary? darmanitan can sweep lategame with better efficiency because of the lack of a speed drop!

seriously, there are more stuff out there that are way more threatening than legendaries (diggersby is a very potent example of this: if people didn't complain enough about azumarill having as high attack as groudon, this one is pretty close to rampardos with actually decent speed and bulk). if your team is steamrolled by legendaries, that's a problem with your teambuilding skills or your battling skills.

seriously the only legends that were undoubtedly broken in UU were kyubey and landorus, if you were here during then you should roughly know how ridiculous they are. things like cobalion aren't even "broken".
 
If five pokemon were causing teams to become at least 3 of those pokemon per team, I'd be complaining either way. How can you honestly say that it's not over centralizing?
Okay, I very much doubt that out of these 5 Pokemon (which you haven't even listed for us besides Latias, Jirachi, and Keldeo), 3 of them are used per team. Using horribly blatant hyperoble that reeks of unfounded biases only makes your argument irrelevant and look like you just want the Pokemon gone because you don't like them, not because they are actually broken. You see these Pokemon a lot because they are good Pokemon that can fill a good number of roles on a team, not because they are "legendary" (which is a really stupid restriction to put yourself under BTW). If you don't like them, then that's fine and your opinion. Just don't try and pass off that your opinion is an irrefutable fact that no one else has seen yet.
 
I could break out all the math and such but all you people keep doing is just yelling "it's not broken it's not broken!" at me so I don't think it'd do very much good. All you guys are doing are making it seem like the right decision to stop playing. So you guys are alienating new players to competitive Pokemon. I hope you're happy?
 
I could break out all the math and such but all you people keep doing is just yelling "it's not broken it's not broken!" at me so I don't think it'd do very much good. All you guys are doing are making it seem like the right decision to stop playing. So you guys are alienating new players to competitive Pokemon. I hope you're happy?
Then show this math. And why are you accusing us all of yelling "its not broken Its not broken" when you are using hyperbole with saying that out of a lost of 5 Pokemon, at least 3 are used per team, and wanting to ban non-broken Pokemon because they have the status of "legendary". If you are going to accuse us of making bad arguemtns, then make sure that your's aren't bad as well.

Also, we don't "alienate" new players to competative Pokemon. We point out when they are using subpar Pokemon or are unecessarily restricting themselves and give them better options to use. If they get mad at us for this, then it really isn't out fault.
 
I could break out all the math and such but all you people keep doing is just yelling "it's not broken it's not broken!" at me so I don't think it'd do very much good. All you guys are doing are making it seem like the right decision to stop playing. So you guys are alienating new players to competitive Pokemon. I hope you're happy?
If it isn't too much trouble when doing the math, include calcs for Hawlucha, Darmanitan, Crawdaunt, Roserade, Heracross, Haxorus, etc. with their best sets for comparison.
 
I'm going to be completely honest: I find the UU metagame to be really lame right now. I have a thing about not using legendaries because I find them really boring and over centralizing, so it's really tough to find a good team when there are so many good legendaries and psuedo legendaries in the tier.
The term "legendaries" should have no place in a competitive discussion imo. Whether a Pokemon is a legendary in-game or not makes no difference competitively. I personally think it's very strange to have a mind-set of not using legendaries. To me that's like someone saying they don't want to use Pokemon in the Water 2 egg group. It's a restriction you place on yourself that has little to do with competitive battling. We'd probably have to go 5 usage tiers down at least to get to a metagame where there's no legendaries (Regigigas or Phione could easily end up further down than NU).

There are a lot of base 600s in UU, yes, but most of them are Psychic-types (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Victini, Metagross, Latias), so are weak to Knock Off which is everywhere, and also other great moves like Sucker Punch and Pursuit. I don't think they're particularly troublesome in this metagame to be honest, and I think they are fun to use and battle against.
 
Need... to catch... a Machoke...


CascadeBeta, if you dislike legendaries so much but you're fine with the likes of Articuno, you just need to wait until the RU (or NU) tier can be played. Tiers exist for this reason too.
Just don't try to enforce your self-imposed restriction on all the other players.
 
You know what, considering the amount of people that are telling me the same thing, I'm going to say that I'm wrong. I've been very frustrated with competitive pokemon as of late, but I think I need to re-evaluate my teambuilding process and try and improve instead of just throwing my hands up and saying shit's broken.

I'm still gonna hold that I don't like Knock Off, though.
 
VGC Bans pokemon for being special, because clearly Zygarde beats Garchomp in every way.
Unfortunately for you Cascade, they don't think like that here. Yes Legendary pokemon are more powerful, but generalizing is what lower tiers are for.

Really though, I fail to see how Knock off isn't the issue here. It lets pokemon mess with their counters more than any kind of status move. We're going to have a bucket full of dark types in BL since it would be nice if there was a way to play around it but there is really not. Unlike defog it's extremely hard to punish and unlike hazards or status its generally irreversible.

But while knock off has its fair amount of issues, there are a lot of pokemon where its a non issue, Assuming BL has no limit, I'm all for subjecting pokemon that are too powerful with it, since a move ban would leave a lot of pokemon lacking coverage where the found it with knock off.
 
I'm going to be completely honest: I find the UU metagame to be really lame right now. I have a thing about not using legendaries because I find them really boring and over centralizing, so it's really tough to find a good team when there are so many good legendaries and psuedo legendaries in the tier. I asked in the simple questions thread about how to deal with Keldeo and Jirachi, and got told about 3 to 4 options each, one of which would have to be a dedicated special wall. That bugs me a lot. People keep talking about how good the metagame is, but what about people who don't want to use the same cookie cutter team that everyone else is using? I don't want to use Latias, I don't want to use Keldeo or Jirachi. It also doesn't help when the guy in charge of decisions in the tier makes bans without reasons, leaving someone like me very confused considering those weren't the problem pokemon in the tier. That, paired with how good knock off is and it basically makes me want to run a pokemon with no item, which is insane that I have to even think about that, it all makes me want to stop playing UU, to be quite honest.

The meta right now seems very against the spirit of Pokemon, and that bugs the hell out of me.
Actually, I never find that I need to have a counter to everything unless I am running stall. Hyper Offense focus on revenge killing and exerting offensive pressure. While these team archetypes may not have solid counters to things like Keldeo, Keldeo can rarely find chances to switch in and will be revenged easily after getting a kill (I recommend strong priority over scarfers as revenge killers on those team). Even if the opponent switchs in a ground type on your Jolteon, good hazard control can wear down the opponent quick.

The tier isn't really filled with cookie cutting team now. In fact, UU is filled with creativity due to being new and no one know what's the tier like. My usual style of teambuilding is pick a lesser used pokemon or set and base the team on it. I have tried Veonomoth, Assualt Vest Drapion, Suicide Scolipede, Offensive SR Krookodile, Offensive Support Arcanine, Suicide Mew, CB Flygon, Specs Jirachi, Trapper Mega Absol, Defensive Rotom-N in the past months of UU. While some of them sucks, most of them does wonder despite being not 'standard'. I recommend this team building methods if you don't like using same pokemons all over.

I agree with you on Knock Off though due to how hard it hampers stall as a playstyle. I have made detailed explanations on the UU Beta thread and don't bother to write once again.
 
Okay, so this page is completely filled with "legendary" posts...
Onto another subject, what do you guys think of Zygarde? It's quite bulky and a solid sweeper, from what I've seen of it. What do you use to break Mega Aggron + Florges cores? (I theorymonned SubSD Cobalion, but I'm not sure that has enough merit in the meta...)? Imo, Zygarde is quite a good sweeper, outpacingg phazers with Dtail and having a solid STAB combo. It's the reason I usually carry a random Ice move like on Zapdos (HP Ice). Mega Aggron is offensively and defensively a behemoth, having a nice array of utility moves and being sturdy in general. Florges has exceptionally good special bulk and the ability to pass on decently large Wishes. I actually haven't used Chansey yet but don't really feel like it, because with new special tanks like Florges and others that don't overlap, I don't see the need for a catch-all special wall; Chansey is a beast, though. Nidoqueen can actually take care of Mega Aggron + Florges well, but less offensive Leftovers variants sometimes don't even 2HKO with Sludge Wave!
As for offense, Adaptability Crawdaunt looks to be a beast, with the Knock Off and Dark buff, access to Aqua Jet, Crabhammer buff and all of this combined with its great attack makes for a deadly Pokemon. Also the topic of legendaries reminded me that Defog Pokemon are also kinda huge; Latias, Zapdos, and Mew seem to be the most prominent of these, and are sturdy with reliable recovery and other kinds of utility, making them great mons in the meta.


EDIT- Oh yeah, forgot to mention this. Mega Aggron heavily eases prediction as it takes 1-2 hits, b/c against something like Tornadus-T it can come in on Knock Off, live a Focus Blast with a specially defensive spread, and retaliate. It can then switch out and WishPass heals it later on, although if it's at low health, this becomes tricky.
 
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Okay, so this page is completely filled with "legendary" posts...
Onto another subject, what do you guys think of Zygarde? It's quite bulky and a solid sweeper, from what I've seen of it. What do you use to break Mega Aggron + Florges cores? (I theorymonned SubSD Cobalion, but I'm not sure that has enough merit in the meta...)? Imo, Zygarde is quite a good sweeper, outpacingg phazers with Dtail and having a solid STAB combo. It's the reason I usually carry a random Ice move like on Zapdos (HP Ice). Mega Aggron is offensively and defensively a behemoth, having a nice array of utility moves and being sturdy in general. Florges has exceptionally good special bulk and the ability to pass on decently large Wishes. I actually haven't used Chansey yet but don't really feel like it, because with new special tanks like Florges and others that don't overlap, I don't see the need for a catch-all special wall; Chansey is a beast, though. Nidoqueen can actually take care of Mega Aggron + Florges well, but less offensive Leftovers variants sometimes don't even 2HKO with Sludge Wave!
As for offense, Adaptability Crawdaunt looks to be a beast, with the Knock Off and Dark buff, access to Aqua Jet, Crabhammer buff and all of this combined with its great attack makes for a deadly Pokemon. Also the topic of legendaries reminded me that Defog Pokemon are also kinda huge; Latias, Zapdos, and Mew seem to be the most prominent of these, and are sturdy with reliable recovery and other kinds of utility, making them great mons in the meta.
Having been using a Zygarde on my primary team, I can safely say that it is an excellent mon. Been using SubCoil, which often has the potential to run away with things. My problem is that I tend to either play him to conservatively, or to agressively, leading to Garde dying when he shouldn't. I've got Zygarde paired with a Nidoking, who can manhandle a number of things that give Zygarde problems, and certainlly takes Mega-Aggron Florges to task. Although I've yet to face full on Mega Aggron yet, having killed most of them before they could do anything (Also have seen a few regular aggron, who die even faster.) One things I can say about Zygarde though is that it rewards playing well, and punishes misplays heavily, at least for me.
 
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