SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[noobcubed]

I thought this day would never come...

So this is, in my eyes at least, more of a philosophical discussion, whereas Mega Lucario etc is clearly a practical discussion. That is, we are not just discussing whether pranksterfusion is overpowered, but also whether it is fair.

To summarise why so many people dislike this particular so-called strategy, here is a very short algorithm:

1) Is the opponent confused?
If yes, go to 2). If no, use Swagger.

2) Are you behind a substitute?
If yes, go to 3). If no, use Substitute.

3) Is the opponent paralysed, or a Ground- or Electric-type?
If yes, use Foul Play. If no, use Thunder Wave.

The reason that this is a problem is that following this scheme is the best thing a player piloting a swagmon can do 95%+ of the time, regardless of what the opponent is doing. In other words, a player, when using a swagmon, doesn't need to think about what his opponent is doing - his play is unpunishable, as long as he gets the required RNG rolls. In using these strategies, a player is forcing his opponent to play the percentages with him, and there is nothing the opponent can do to stop him. Many games involving a swagmon, and every game involving a whole team of them, is decided by luck not skill. I fail to see how this is different to evasion, to be honest.

As for whether luck is a bad thing - I'm a ladder player, so I can console myself that my luck is being smoothed out over hundreds of matches. But for a tournament match to be decided in such a way would be a travesty. Basically swagplay gives nothing to the metagame other than increasing the probabilities for bad players to beat good players, and as such it deserves no place in the metagame. In my opinion, ban Swagger, or possibly Prankster + Swagger, on the grounds that it renders skill irrelevant and is no fun.

 

[Disaster Area]

The amount of you quoting and arguing with pick shows how poor some of you are at weeding out the clear trolls, versus those who are seriously arguing against swagger. >.> It's no wonder people call smogon ban-happy, it's impossible to have a proper clear arguement.

 

[CL0V3R]

Pls learn to read. I am aware that there are a lot of Magic Coat users. I simply said that you can't just stick it on anything, because it is such a niche move

I did read. Problem being that Magic Coat isn't a niche move. It's completely competitively viable.
You can use it against: Toxic stallers, will-o-wisp, T-wave, Swagger, entry hazzards, taunt, ect.
Everyone uses defog to rid hazards. Why is that any more niche than this?

 

[trc]

pls repost in policy review haunter thx

 

[Subject 18]

Why settle for only one of the options?
Ban Prankster AND confusion!
While we're at it, let's also ban every other aspect of the game that is luck based! Critical hits? Ban!
Damage ranges should be gone, too. Attraction? banhammer!
Sleep now lasts always 5 turns. Moves that aren't 100% accurate should be banned too. I mean, we shouldn't be relying on luck, right?
Also, abilities that have a chance of making something happen should be gone too. Static? Flame Body? Cursed Body? Out.
Brightpowder is now banned too.
There, we made a no-fun meta. Do you guys like it? I know I love it.

All of the involves changing game mechanics. Its not going to happen, unless you get a job at GameFreak and get those changes done.



No one is forcing to play by Smogon rules, if you don't agree enough you can go over Serebii or another Pokemon site.

 

[Redolent]

I resent that you figure that everyone against swagger staying legal are incapable of arguing.

More so, let me point out that 'niche anti swagplay teams' have a full style named for them... It's called stall. If anything, heavy offense is the most bothered by this and people are less bothered as you go down the offensive charts. You might say "Well, then it's destroying a style so ban it" but I point you to Kyurem-black, a pokemon completely unfair to stall teams for the last few years. Imo, Welcome to Hell, HO. You all decided to shit on stall last gen, see if I care this gen.

I'm fine with a pranksterplay ban, but confusion in general is a giant overreaction as I've stated in my posts throughout this thread.

Yeah I apologise for my overgeneralised point, I just can't help but roll my eyes at people who think they've genuinely outsmarted someone by posting some buzzphrase like "what is own tempo"

I actually agree that stall is a great playstyle and it's my personal playstyle of choice. I was responding to the specific suggestion that people should put a Pokémon with Own Tempo in their HO teams to counter the tactic, because that doesn't work.

Yeah dealing with Kyurem-B is pretty inconvenient, but there are two mixed walls on my team which can wall it to some extent so I wouldn't say it's completely unfair to stall. That's kind of off topic though so I won't go into it.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

I agree that swagplay strategies are lame as fuck, however; I can't get behind its banning. Swagplay has two major problems (that I can think of atm, there are probably more):

1) It is super matchup oriented
2) It is not guaranteed at all to successfully work

Expanding on point 1, defensive teams have a guaranteed win vs swagplay. Any team, which can also include offensive teams, that has the ability to switch freely is going to win because Swagplay teams don't have the offensive pressure to prevent that. IMO the best way to utilize swagplay is to carry a single mon that uses it as opposed to a whole team because 6 Swagger mons or even the Swagger mons + Ditto loses out on hazards and offensive presence.

Swagplay is not a strategy like OHKO moves would be. Why comparison to OHKO moves? Because they both involve the non-competitive argument and are considered luck based. OHKO moves are easily less competitive than swagplay, all you need to do vs swagplay is PP stall while against Sheer Cold you just have to pray it misses and doesn't take out some important counter/check for free.

Quit your bitchin people.

 

[LuS]

I made an account on here years ago, and I follow the threads from time to time. That being said, I haven't actually used this account until now.

This is completely retarded. I run Klefki with Swagger/Twave/Foul Play/Safeguard because Prankster Safeguard shuts down SwagPlay, among other status related strategies.
I don't see any bans for ParaFlinch strategies, which are essentially the same thing.

If your main argument here is that this strategy takes no skill to use, then you should be banning a helluvalot more things that take no strategy to use. For example; Talonflame with Gale Wings and Brave Bird. Aegislash is borderline, he requires some prediction to use, but he can take pretty much any SE hit, SD up, and OHKO back with Shadow Sneak.
SwagPlay requires more skill to use than priority Brave Bird, and Dragonite with a Lum Berry, or in fact, anything that utilizes a Lum Berry set takes a big dump on SwagPlay.
There are pokemon who resist Confusion.
There are pokemon who bounce back Swagger and completely laugh at SwagPlay.
Banning M-Luke? Eh. You could have just banned NP/SD on him and called it a day.
Banning M-Kanga? Fine. Good. That is legitimately broken.
Banning M-Gengar? Same as banning Wobbuffet.

This is why most other communities for competitive battling shun you guys these days. This thread right here. You wonder why people say "Oh, pfft, fucking Smogon."? This is why.

That's just my two cents on the matter.

So basically you feel like it shouldn't be banned because you're a fan of it? The only thing you mentioned that was an actual cheap strategy is ParaFlinch, which you don't often build whole teams around. SwagPlay teams often have prankster 3-4 members, and with a ditto in the back waiting to punish you for actually KO'ing a prankster user. Plus Smogon is against luck based play , and SwagPlay is the epitome of luck based play. Oh and Lum Berry is only good against teams with only one SwagPlay member, which isn't often anymore.

 

[Caliber Champ]

Pokemon is a luck based game. Not all moves are 100% accurate and then there are luck based status moves that have 10% chance to freeze or whatever. If you ban swagger you also are saying its the right thing to ban both parafusion and paraflinch.

I dont like the 3 options presented. A better option would be to have only one prankster pokemon per team instead. One prankster per team is fair enough. Otherwise it gets over complicated. And one prankster pokemon is easy to take out compared to a whole team of them.
Try blissey, mandibuzz, or prankster taunt thunderous if you want to counter it. Its not uncounterable. Or just switch if you predict a thunder wave and switch to a ground or electric type.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

One problem I would have with banning Swagger is that undoubtedly the cry babies would attack paraflinch next. Swagplay is impossible to beat consistently because of prankster, so I solidly vote for the 2nd ban, but paraflinch has been overdiscussed and we really don't need to go there. People assuming it's all about "luck based strategy" and not about competitive game play just drive me nuts, specifically almonds.

 

[Scorpiopt]

i am in favor of complex ban on swagger + prankster , this strategy is un-competitive , extremely luck/hax based
Having teams that run all 6 mons with this strategy is ridiculous , your counter wont last against all 6 mons like this .i usually use safeguard but even that lasts 5 turns and Sableye can run Taunt
Magic Bounce mons are extremely frail , and most swag teams run ditto so it can steal those attack boosts
Paraflinch is easily countered swag+pranskter is not , also swag + prankster is not the same has Paraflinch

 

[asbdsp]

This is less "luck based" than moody, as it can be played around in a variety of ways. It's also less effective than paraflinch, a strategy that's been around and accepted for years.

And the end of the day, the reason it seems we're trying to get rid of this is that it is FAR, FAR more annoying to play against than any luck based strategy we've seen so far, barring maybe evasion. I just don't see that as a legitimate argument though, in a community that revels in our 400 turn stall v. stall battles in the various different metagames.

Also, at the end of the day this only effects players because of facing ladder trolls, and you can take not completely unreasonable measures in teambuilding to mitigate the risk in facing swagplay. I don't think this is the only instance where you have to play differently on the ladder compared to tourny/competitive situations, so at the end of the day as hard as it is, I think we have to bite the bullet and just deal with this nuisance. We can only hope that the trolls get bored before we do.

 

[Balsty]

Expect for the fact that you can bring in faster Pokemon and take it out. When you play against a SwagPlay team, bringing in a faster Pokemon doesn't help since Prankster beats you regardless of speed.

Whimsicott with Taunt.

lol.

Nice rebuttle there miss "Fuck Klefki". I stand by that point.

So abusing luck to your advantage so your opponent can't attack is skillful?

Alright, now here's where the Coin Toss thing comes in. It's a coin toss for the user too. If I were to Swagger a physical attacker, then he doesn't hit himself, I'm dead, and my strategy that you're so assrippled about has completely failed. In 3v3, this means I am very close to losing the battle.

None of those can take a Foul Play particularly well.

What is switching out immediately after bouncing back Swagger, for 400?

Then you render a ton of setup sweepers useless. Is making a bunch of setup less effective better then just banning one Pokemon? Let me know cuz apparently I don't know since I supported the Mega Lucario ban.

Okay, you misunderstood that part entirely. Banning NP/SD on Mega Lucario would have been preferable to an outright ban.
His mega isn't broken. The ability to boost after scaring something off the field and then sweep an entire team is broken.
I did NOT mean you should ban NP/SD on everything, that would be the worst thing ever.

Wobbuffet has 8 move in its entire movepool and can only trap and kill Pokemon that are choice locked into an attack. While Mega Gengar has the movepool that can be tailored to take out specific mons for a team. You need Skarmory gone so Dragonite can sweep, use Mega Gengar with Thunderbolt. If goes the same for whatever sweeper you can think of. I don't see how this is comparable...

It's comparable because the reason for banning Wobbuffet is that he guarantees a kill, just like M-Gengar.

Pokemon Online is doing the same thing. I don't see you bashing them...

They've already done it, you guys don't have to. It's a dumb idea and it makes Smogon players look whiny.

 

[noobcubed]

Why settle for only one of the options?
Ban Prankster AND confusion!
While we're at it, let's also ban every other aspect of the game that is luck based! Critical hits? Ban!
Damage ranges should be gone, too. Attraction? banhammer!
Sleep now lasts always 5 turns. Moves that aren't 100% accurate should be banned too. I mean, we shouldn't be relying on luck, right?
Also, abilities that have a chance of making something happen should be gone too. Static? Flame Body? Cursed Body? Out.
Brightpowder is now banned too.
There, we made a no-fun meta. Do you guys like it? I know I love it.

1) We can't make most of those bans because they are changing core gameplay mechanics.
2) We can't (and shouldn't try to) eliminate luck entirely. We should try and prevent players from creating highly luck-dependent scenarios in order to give them a chance to beat players they would never be able to beat on merit. In case you think I am calling out noobs, I'd like to point out that a noob beating a better player with swagplay does not help that noob to become a better player. I want newcomers to learn and become good players.

 

[Exclaimer]

I've seen three entire pages form in the span of about 15 minutes. (Holy shit, 125 users [and 300-some-odd guests] are watching this thread now)

My two cents, I hate this strategy, but then again, there are already so many bans, clauses, and rules that this metagame is about to cease being fun. One way you can combat SwagPlay users is just to not play against them. The new ladder is more forgiving if you get a loss, and so what, you're supposed to enjoy playing the game. If you're good enough, the loss will be negligible. The same way you beat SwagPlay is the same way they beat you. Luck.

I agree with the ban, but I think that there are already a ton of bans to begin with, so I'm on the edge about it.

 

[xDesch]

Paraflinch tho. Jirachi, Togekiss, and other users shoudnt be allowed to do this by your logic.

Seriously, this stragety aint common enough to warrant a ban. There are plenty of Pokes who beat it. Im not even gonna bother listing them since theyve been menioned so many times already.

That list of pokes don't help this at all. Numel beats this, yes. and many other pokes really help with beating this, but only this. outside of countering this, Numel won't do shit.
Whilts Lum Berry Dragonite and Chansey and some other viable stuff beats the strategy, you now suddenly have to include one of these "checks" to this strategy, as if team buiding wasn't already very restrictive. The worst part about it, is that if you don't include one of those "checks" or soft counters, your team will have a bad matchup or a 50-50 against a team based around it. Bad players suddenly have the ability to beat better players. Some of you may wonder what a "good player" is. That is someone who makes close to perfect plays. When ultilizing this startegy, you don't have to make much reads or predictions in order to succeed. This is why I'm against it. It is uncompetetive and is a dice roll. I can't be the only one who hates speedties and people using doubble protect. it is a 50% chance of beeing successfull. a chance that isn't lowered no matter how good of a player you're facing.

tl;dr Ban Swagger, or Swagger on a Prankster poke (complex ban). Hax is a part of the game, but relying on it to win, is just too much.

 

[noobcubed]

By the way, for those people claiming stall craps on swagplay - every swagplayer out there (bar Klefki iirc) can learn Taunt...

 

[Robot_3]

The bigger issue about Swagplay is uncompetitiveness, in that it essentially turns the game into roulette. Manual Double Team is pretty terrible itself too, but the issue stands, that it takes away skill-based control and replaces it with luck, and the list of countermeasures thereto are fairly limited. Moody was also banned because of this same issue, albeit in a more extreme form.

The real problem is that you don't understand how to assess your odds. With paralysis + confusion, you have an 80% chance not to move.
It's not "uncompetitive" to assess these odds and manually choose not to deal with them in a situation where the odds are stacked against you.
If you are vulnerable to this simple strategy, it suggests your team is built poorly.
You should probably have a Special Attacker on your team with an attack stat set to zero anyway because of the popularity of Foul Play on Mandibuzz.

You have no electric pokemon (most of which are special-based and can afford a zero attack IV)?
You have no ground pokemon (which hit Klefki, the worst abuser, super effectively)?
You don't even have a single pokemon with Substitute? You don't have any pokemon that resist Dark attacks?
To me, these are signals that your team is built poorly, not the fact that Swagger + Foul Play is a broken strategy.
If you are in a situation where you realize the odds are against you, why do you still choose to stay in that situation?
There is no reason you need to keep your +2 Mega Charizard X in on Klefki. Switch him out and deal with the threat like you would any other.

Moody was banned because it actually is a totally luck-based strategy that has no counter-play besides maybe roar which won't work on a last pokemon or ingrain smeargle.
You can play around Swagger + Foul Play easily with a well built team.

I mean, look at Thundurus-I. He has Prankster himself, he has higher speed, he has substitute, and he is immune to paralysis, and he's also a special attacker that can set his attack IV to zero.
Furthermore, you can't argue that he's a dead weight pokemon because he's S-Rank. He is certainly not a dead weight on your team, so it's not like you have to build your team in a ridiculous way to counter SwagPlay.

 

[RedSceptile.]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm not for the SwagPlay ban as it is because yes it's a luck based strategy, but also a completely luck reliant one. I could get more in depth but this almost reminds me of final countdown in ygo.

 

[pick]

Alright, let's do that. Everyone who actually enjoys playing the game as it was meant to be played, which is on a level playing field only affected by the skill of the two players, are for the ban. But since we're looking at people in this forum, let's also look at the people being deliberately bothersome and impeding the discussion by giving out completely irrelevant and worthless arguments as a way to play around this irritating strategy.

No, you're the one who's not enjoying the game. You constantly seek to modify it because you see it as imperfect, and that resentment is taking away from your enjoyment of the game by adding negative feelings. After you ban swagger and foul play, you'll just find something else wrong with the game and the cycle will repeat. Instead of trying to fix the game, why don't you try to fix your strategy, and in this case figure out how to beat swagger and foul play? Maybe then you'll be able to enjoy competitive pokemon.

In addition, your assertion that my argument is worthless further discredits you. Why do you have to attack the relevance of my arguments to win, because you know you're wrong?

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm in favor of banning Prankster + Swagger / Flatter / Confuse Ray on any set. While it's not the most consistent way to win like many have pointed out, it's almost entirely luck based and unfair in general.

 

[Lady Alex]

I think it would be best to ban all confusion moves as well as Attract, mostly for the sake of consistency. Confusion itself does nothing but add an unnecessary luck factor to the game for the sake of inducing luck. It is unlike paralysis in that the primary purpose of paralysis is to cripple an opponent's speed. I don't think there is any harm in extending the ban to all confusion moves, since no one really uses them anyway.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I think the purpose of a complex ban, however inelegant it may be, is to be as conservative as possible, especially to preserve strategies and Pokemon that would be excised (and are not broken) with a more simple ban. For example, Swift Swim alone was not deemed broken if one has to rely on an opponent's Politoed or have to use a team's move slot and manually set-up temporary rain.

Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play on a single set set seems to be the most conservative means of banning it. Since in order to "benefit" from the attack boost from Swagger, the Swagger user has to switch out. Swagger would still be a high-risk, high-reward move, but the reward from Swagger is significantly reduced since the Swagger user now has to rely on Confusion damage or the Pokemon's attack and offensive stats (such as Klefki using Draining Kiss) in order to kill its confused victim and the opponent has a chance to attack if it survives the attack.

 

[Exclaimer]

I think it would be best to ban all confusion moves as well as Attract, mostly for the sake of consistency. Confusion itself does nothing but add an unnecessary luck factor to the game for the sake of inducing luck. It is unlike paralysis in that the primary purpose of paralysis is to cripple an opponent's speed. I don't think there is any harm in extending the ban to all confusion moves, since no one really uses them anyway.

But Confusion causes switches and strategic set-up opportunities, like setting up Substitutes. Confusion isn't that unfair on its own.

That last sentence, while it may seem like a minor thing to you, but some people DO use it and it has a niche strategy. That's like saying we should ban all NU Pokemon because people never use them; that's silly because some of them can be potent and viable if the team requires it.